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Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:02 AM

HRC's "I am a better friend to Obama" argument tonight was in really bad faith.

Tonight's debate made me angry. Hillary Clinton is the candidate who ran the "3 AM phone call" ad against Obama, and consistently argued he was too naive and inexperienced to lead. She gave him the exact same treatment as a wide-eyed, naive dreamer that she is now directing at Sanders, and she was at times extremely unpleasant about it.

I do not care for any of the personal nastiness going on in the primary, and I do not think Hillary Clinton is a terrible person or the worst Democrat in the world or any such thing. I will vote for her without hesitation to try to beat whatever nightmare the Republicans foist on us if she is the nominee. I have said, and continue to think, that she has qualities that could make her a worthwhile President.

But her increasingly feral attacks are disingenuous and unethical -- ugly appeals to substance-free identity politics and some truly wacky attempts to distort facts and history.

Her surrogates were racing around MSNBC tonight with the "meme" that Sanders "doesn't talk about being Jewish enough," for Pete's sake. As if we can't see the grotesque calculation that if they can goad him into emphasizing his religious background more, it will hurt him with bigots. This is below the bottom of the barrel.

She's a better friend to Obama? She and her campaign overtly savaged Obama in '08, complete with racist dogwhistles, like her gleeful claims to owning "the white vote," and her finance chair Ferraro opining that Obama was only succeeding because America was "caught up" in the color of his skin.

Then she tried to beat him by participating in the Michigan primary after pledging not to and arguing those delegates should count in her favor.

Our household stopped supporting her in favor of Obama specifically over the ugly nature of her attacks then. She apparently learned nothing from the failure of that strategy, and is racing down the same road now. And I'm finding I like her less now than I have since '08.

Her people think she should be able to score points by claiming some kind of higher ground regarding the guy who would have been dismissed as a hopeless greenhorn back in 2008 if she'd had her way? By implying her criticisms are substantive and civilized, when her central strategy appears to have become inventing new reasons to hate Sanders, someone running maybe the least offensive campaign any of us has ever seen?

Is she serious?



“I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on,” she said in the interview, citing an article by The Associated Press.

It “found how Senator Obama’s support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me.”

“There’s a pattern emerging here,” she said.


http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/clinton-touts-white-support/?_r=0

Ms. Ferraro, the former congresswoman and vice-presidential candidate who backs Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, told The Daily Breeze, a newspaper in Torrance, Calif.: “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/us/politics/12campaign.html

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Reply HRC's "I am a better friend to Obama" argument tonight was in really bad faith. (Original post)
DirkGently Feb 2016 OP
InAbLuEsTaTe Feb 2016 #1
Nonhlanhla Feb 2016 #2
DirkGently Feb 2016 #6
Nonhlanhla Feb 2016 #15
hedda_foil Feb 2016 #50
senz Feb 2016 #59
hedda_foil Feb 2016 #60
frylock Feb 2016 #70
bigdarryl Feb 2016 #8
Stallion Feb 2016 #10
bigdarryl Feb 2016 #14
Stallion Feb 2016 #19
Fawke Em Feb 2016 #40
Admiral Loinpresser Feb 2016 #46
jhart3333 Feb 2016 #61
frylock Feb 2016 #71
passiveporcupine Feb 2016 #73
Geronimoe Feb 2016 #52
tblue37 Feb 2016 #53
senz Feb 2016 #57
Hydra Feb 2016 #13
Nonhlanhla Feb 2016 #18
Hydra Feb 2016 #23
bettyellen Feb 2016 #27
Hydra Feb 2016 #32
bettyellen Feb 2016 #34
artislife Feb 2016 #74
Nonhlanhla Feb 2016 #80
Hydra Feb 2016 #88
joshcryer Feb 2016 #97
Hydra Feb 2016 #102
joshcryer Feb 2016 #103
jillan Feb 2016 #54
joshcryer Feb 2016 #99
Bohemianwriter Feb 2016 #81
Land Shark Feb 2016 #3
Skwmom Feb 2016 #4
TDale313 Feb 2016 #5
m-lekktor Feb 2016 #7
JudyM Feb 2016 #9
DirkGently Feb 2016 #12
TCJ70 Feb 2016 #16
amborin Feb 2016 #67
jillan Feb 2016 #56
artislife Feb 2016 #75
JudyM Feb 2016 #87
kcjohn1 Feb 2016 #11
AtomicKitten Feb 2016 #17
DirkGently Feb 2016 #22
AtomicKitten Feb 2016 #26
DirkGently Feb 2016 #33
amborin Feb 2016 #68
AtomicKitten Feb 2016 #79
nashville_brook Feb 2016 #20
DirkGently Feb 2016 #28
SheenaR Feb 2016 #21
bettyellen Feb 2016 #30
SheenaR Feb 2016 #31
bettyellen Feb 2016 #37
TTUBatfan2008 Feb 2016 #43
bettyellen Feb 2016 #44
TTUBatfan2008 Feb 2016 #48
bettyellen Feb 2016 #55
m-lekktor Feb 2016 #39
bettyellen Feb 2016 #41
AtomicKitten Feb 2016 #63
bettyellen Feb 2016 #64
AtomicKitten Feb 2016 #76
bettyellen Feb 2016 #78
AzDar Feb 2016 #24
phleshdef Feb 2016 #25
DirkGently Feb 2016 #29
glinda Feb 2016 #35
DirkGently Feb 2016 #86
jonestonesusa Feb 2016 #98
Uncle Joe Feb 2016 #36
PonyUp Feb 2016 #38
amborin Feb 2016 #66
SHRED Feb 2016 #42
aikoaiko Feb 2016 #45
Beacool Feb 2016 #47
Bohemianwriter Feb 2016 #82
Beacool Feb 2016 #92
DirkGently Feb 2016 #93
Beacool Feb 2016 #94
DirkGently Feb 2016 #95
Bohemianwriter Feb 2016 #96
Live and Learn Feb 2016 #49
DJ13 Feb 2016 #51
Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2016 #58
Chezboo Feb 2016 #62
AOR Feb 2016 #65
DirkGently Feb 2016 #89
AOR Feb 2016 #90
DirkGently Feb 2016 #91
Deadshot Feb 2016 #69
billhicks76 Feb 2016 #72
merrily Feb 2016 #77
DirkGently Feb 2016 #85
Iggy Knorr Feb 2016 #83
Broward Feb 2016 #84
WiffenPoof Feb 2016 #100
Jarqui Feb 2016 #101

Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:06 AM

1. You make many excellent points.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:06 AM

2. Yes, she ran against him

when he was still just candidate Obama.

But at the 2008 Dem convention she graciously released her delegates and nominated Obama - just ceremonial, but still, she showed herself to be gracious and a team player in the Democratic Party at a moment that must have been pretty painful for her.

And then she joined Obama's administration.

And, unlike Bernie, she did not talk of a primary challenge against him in 2012.

So I think her argument stands on pretty solid ground.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:10 AM

6. She attacked him mercilessly, racially, and personally.


And it would surprise me greatly if her cabinet position was not a negotiated exchange.

Her tut-tutting here is specious on its face.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:23 AM

15. I'm aware of that

I was an Obama supporter in 2008. She fought him as long as she could and often negatively, just as he fought her and also often negatively. But afterwards she supported him, without ever trying to undermine his presidency. So her argument is on solid ground.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:33 AM

50. I'm convinced the Secretary of State position was negotiated, along with ...

Paying off her campaign debt, and most importantly of all, I have come to believe that she, Bill and their team negotiated an agreement that the way would be completely cleared of real opponents to her coronation this year. That's how it appeared when only outlier candidates dared compete with her. And when he announced, Bernie the socialist must have seemed as far outside the Demosphere as Lincoln Chaffee.

Do I know this to be true? No, but I'll make book on it.

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Response to hedda_foil (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:50 AM

59. Makes perfect sense, hedda.

 

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Response to senz (Reply #59)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:53 AM

60. Thanks, Senz.

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Response to hedda_foil (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:37 AM

70. Take that to the bank!

This has long been my opinion as well.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:12 AM

8. Yep I don't care what this article says about her clinging to the President

 

She's smart for doing it plus she was in the Administration she knows what happened in 2014 when the scared democrats running ran away from the President.Look how that turned out.And yes Sanders did call for Obama to be challenged in the 2012 reelection.

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:16 AM

10. Thanks Been Looking for That

nm

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Response to Stallion (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:22 AM

14. Sanders better hope and pray this doesn't get in a 30 second ad in SC and Nevada

 

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:28 AM

19. Yeah I Heard it 2012

so I knew it was out there-even did a google search but couldn't find it

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:12 AM

40. Yawn

You people really are out of touch, aren't you?

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:18 AM

46. My recollection is that Bernie calmed down a week later

and retracted his remarks. I shared his anger. A Democratic president offering to cut Social Security is crossing a line no Democratic president should ever cross. Don't you agree?

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:55 AM

61. Yes I do!

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:39 AM

71. What self-respecting liberal wouldn't?

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Response to Admiral Loinpresser (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 04:07 AM

73. Thanks for posting this

I'd forgotten what this clip was in referrence to, and I too was disappointed. I understand why Sanders said what he said, but now it will be used against him. And I'm glad he apologized for it. It will be taken out of context...like this. Just a short enough clip to see him saying that, but not why.

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:46 AM

52. Bernie is speaking the truth

 

Obama was far right of the public.

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:46 AM

53. I think his idea was to force Obama to move to the left, just as Bernie'sown primary challenge

for the Dem nomination was originally intended to force progressive ideas into the conversation.

A primary challenge pressures a Dem candidate leftward and forces them to tell their staff and close advisors not to call the progressive base idiots and "f***ing retards."

It isn't good for our candidates to believe they can completely ignore our needs while sucking up to the oligarchs simply because we have nowhere else to turn.

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Response to bigdarryl (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:49 AM

57. That was a 2-way conversation on a call-in talk show & the video left out the first part

 

which was the caller saying he was distressed about Obama considering cuts to Social Security.

Bernie Sanders knows that Social Security is all some Americans have to live on. He was trying to figure out how to push Obama back to the left. What the heck is wrong with that?

Bernie did not make a public speech, he did not issue a "call" for a primary challenge. Thom Hartmann said that the next week when Bernie was back he said he regretting making the suggestion.

So you are making a big deal out of nothing.

Bernie and President Obama are on very good terms. I know for a fact that Bernie likes and respects Obama.

Furthermore, I have had the sense ever since 2008 that Hillary and Obama cannot stand each other. But they put on a good front. Some day I think the truth of that will come out.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:22 AM

13. That was a horse trade

Obama wanted nothing to do with her after her actions during the primary. She agreed to withdraw in return for the SOS position and who knows what else.

She didn't join the Obama team, she had her foot in the door.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:25 AM

18. And you know this how? Nt.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:38 AM

23. It's been outright stated in places both that Hillary threatened the nuclear option

And Obama, incredibly careful and guarded as he usually is about his real opinions, has let his person distaste and distrust of Hillary be known in various ways.

The last thing he wanted was Hillary and Bill in the thick of his "no drama" zone. They wound up helping him at times when he needed it("I understand your frustration..." moment for one), but on the whole they were a huge liability to him, and a fair number of Obama supporters felt betrayed when he invited them into the WH.

Now, Obama has to deal with the possibility that she will sink his legacy, and he's not happy about it.

I'm sure our "Leaders" hate this age where everything is on the Google. You can't say anything without it ending up as part of the permanent record.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:49 AM

27. Is this gossip or do you have a good source- LINK?

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:00 AM

32. There's more than one source

One of the most eye opening for me was the article on Obama knowing the moment he beat Clinton. I'm always impressed when I hear the real Obama talking, rare as that is.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:07 AM

34. I thought Reggie Love might have dramatized the tarmac story to look heroic, I don't know.

 

There are loads of those kinds of skirmishes, and in the end.... people still have to work together. And they did.
You can't have a a coalition if no one else is good enough to work with, YKWIM?

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Response to Hydra (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 04:14 AM

74. I did.

 

I was furious that she couldn't pay off her damn campaign. A lot of small business people were waiting for their money. I hated the email I got from him on that. Especially after all the bullshit she and Bill pulled.


Then he made her SoS later on, and that made me angry. They are like vampires, they suck up all the energy they can.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 08:34 AM

80. Sounds like gossip

There are always people writing about the "true motivations" of people or "what really happened behind the scenes." One should not take such gossip too seriously.

Reality is that the fences between Hillary and Obama were mended a long time ago, that she was a loyal member of his administration, and unlike Bernie, she did not call for him to be primaried in 2012. Moreover, there are some signals that Obama prefers Hillary to be his successor (as seen in Carney's words this week), although of course not an actual endorsement yet, which Obama cannot give at this stage.

Here's the gossip: she forced him to appoint her SOS
Here are the facts: he appointed her SOS; they worked together well for 4 years; she did not try to primary him; Bernie did try to primary him.

Based on the facts, as opposed to gossip, her statement stands on solid ground.

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #80)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:10 AM

88. It's up to you what you'd like to believe

Clinton has happily undermined Obama during her campaign, in the WH, and afterward as well on a variety of issues. This "loyalty" everyone speaks of, if it even exists, is firmly grounded on her plan to win the Presidency right now.

It doesn't surprise me that Obama would favor a Clinton Presidency, as she would protect the ACA and some of his other programs. If Bernie manages a more transformative stint in office it's quite likely to diminish his precious "legacy." Kinda sad when you have to support the "No we can't!" movement to make the "We really should have" movement look better in the history books.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:36 PM

97. This is full of shit.

Link or slink.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #97)

Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:11 AM

102. You want me to post an OP?

I'm not inclined to bother, since most of us were there watching it happen...and DU is infested with the amazing rebuttals of "Nuh uh!" lately.

Truth is an amazing thing- it's there whether you say something about it or not.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #102)

Sat Feb 13, 2016, 12:55 AM

103. Clinton had nothing over Obama.

He held all the cards and she busted her ass stumping for him. This myth that Clinton threatened him and tied his hands is giving her MORE credit as a political calculator and diminishes Obama's sincerity and political acumen.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:47 AM

54. Biden was given the choice of VP it SoS

He chose VP to spend more time with his family. So it's hard to say if Obama would've offered her VP.

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Response to Hydra (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:38 PM

99. That is utter shit. She didn't agree to withdraw for shit.

She had no choice to withdraw because Obama had more delegates even after the contested states were seated (yes, MI and FL delegates were seated).

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Response to Nonhlanhla (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 09:23 AM

81. Sleazy tactics are sleazy tactics...

 

Her desperation runs deep....





"We came, we saw, they drowned"

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:08 AM

3. Sigh. Yeah. Her record is so long AND VARIED you could prove anything.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:09 AM

4. If they got back in the Whitehouse do you really think they would be able to stop themselves from


tearing down Obama? We are talking about a couple that have no impulse control.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:09 AM

5. The Clinton political machine

Has been the most divisive force in Democratic politics for decades. It's how they operate.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:11 AM

7. Seriously. Any slight Sanders has committed towards Obama is mild compared to what

Hillary Clinton has done to him in the past!

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:14 AM

9. The Jewish thing... was only a matter of time till she figured out how to use it against him.

Her surrogates were racing around MSNBC tonight with the "meme" that Sanders "doesn't talk about being Jewish enough," for Pete's sake. As if we can't see the grotesque calculation that if they can goad him into emphasizing his religious background more, it will hurt him with bigots. This is below the bottom of the barrel.


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Response to JudyM (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:21 AM

12. This is "the kitchen sink"

And it reeks.

Sanders isn't doing it. Win or lose, he is modeling the kind of candidate I will always prefer.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:23 AM

16. Truth...

...his whole demeanor is preferable to the garbage she threw out at the end. I thought she did pretty well keeping herself in check the entire time, just to ruin it in the last seconds.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:24 AM

67. akin to her saying, in 2008, that Obama is not a Muslim "as far as I know"

she is diabolical

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Response to JudyM (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:48 AM

56. Did they really do that? I read they were.

I cannot believe they actually had the gall to do that.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 04:16 AM

75. They should be careful

 

I think older Jewish voters are actually part of her base. He had family members die in the camps.

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Response to artislife (Reply #75)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:01 AM

87. Unfortunately, based on my recent phonebanking, older folks seem less likely to change their votes.

If it becomes more stark/obvious I'm sure they would.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:19 AM

11. Clinton doesn't know how to be subtle

This tactic which is obvious pandering is going to back fire. For one, its so transparent every voter will see through. Secondly, its one thing to say I agree with Obama on this, and that, and I supported him there, etc. Its another to basically use him as shield to protect yourself against charges.

Her basic argument was I'm taking money just like Obama, so you can't call me corrupt. Most Obama voters don't view him as a saint like he is Ronald Reagan on the republican side. Obama is popular because he is well liked and people choice to overlook his flaws. This tactic won't work because it actually brings spotlight to an issue most liberals know is a problem (corruption of Obama, Dems on taking corporate money), but they choose to overlook (Obama is establishment, and he has protected his donors).

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:25 AM

17. As SOS, she pubicly criticized his foreign policy, blaming him for the rise of ISIS.

 

Yeah, she's a real pal.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:37 AM

22. She's even done it since the campaign began.

Hillary Clinton broke with President Obama during Saturday's Democratic primary debate when she said that the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria can't just be "contained, a phrase Obama used in a Friday interview that aired just hours before the Paris terror attacks. "


http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/260183-clinton-isis-cannot-be-contained

I don't have a problem with her disagreeing with Obama on policy as a candidate, just as I don't have a problem with Sanders taking substantive exception to Obama on other things.

But Sanders wasn't uncouthly "personal" or vicious to Obama. Clinton was. She has no standing to call out anyone for any kind of alleged abuse of Obama, nor to claim to be his successor.

I'd also note she ran to Obama's right, and there is every reason to assume she would weaken, not strengthen, whatever progress he has made.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:48 AM

26. She criticizes Obama using neocon talking points.

 

Explains why her lips are so firmly attached to Kissinger's ass.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:04 AM

33. Taking advice from Kissinger chills me to the bone.

I would hope everyone would have that reaction, but apparently his history of supporting rightwing death squads and being a wanted war criminal and so forth somehow doesn't diminish his caché with everyone.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:30 AM

68. it was hillary who pushed Obama to bomb Libya, based on her flawed reading of intel

that everyone else read correctly. She cackled about Qaddafi's death. Now Libya is in
chaos and ISIS roams freely. She learned nothing from her Iraq vote for regime change.

Same thing in Syria. She and McCain touted arming Syrian rebels. Only problem is, most of
them are not really on our side. The latest reports from a few months ago where about
spending $500 million to train rebels and only 5 were viable. The rest took off with the
state of the art weaponry. Syria, too, is in chaos, and ISIS controls a significant area.

She is a scary war mongering neocon.

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Response to amborin (Reply #68)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 04:56 AM

79. I remember reading that she, Patreus, and Panetta were plotting regarding Syria

 

behind Obama's back, the consensus among them that he wasn't doing it right. I oppose her most vehemently on foreign policy. She is a reckless interventionist who looks to Kissinger for advice. She scares the shit out of me and I don't want her anywhere near the White House.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:32 AM

20. This is why she never increases her poll numbers

Was a remarkable story reported last week that HRC's polling numbers never go higher than first polls. That means that the more people see of the candidate, the less they like her. It's a chronic problem in her orbit.

I wonder why that is...

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:52 AM

28. The cutthroat playbook she ran tonight

might have something to do with it?

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)


Response to SheenaR (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:56 AM

30. She praise Mc Cain over Obama when? I know she defended him from Trump slime, and generally

 

hates him less than most other Republicans.
But if you are saying she threw Obama under the bus for Mc Cain- We need a link.
Do not believe this.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:00 AM

31. My memory failed me

It was Bill and not Hillary during the 2008 GE campaign. I will delete my post.

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Response to SheenaR (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:08 AM

37. Thank you! Major pet peeve of mine- blaming her for every damned thing Bill said.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:15 AM

43. But package deal right?

Both of them repeatedly said that years ago and it is also part of her campaign to become POTUS as well.

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Response to TTUBatfan2008 (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:15 AM

44. Still does not make the post above the least bit TRUE. Does it? And we all care about that- right?

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #44)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:22 AM

48. I mean...

When Bill Clinton made his comment about McCain/Obama, I don't think it is crazy to believe he was expressing frustration for both of them. Who can blame them at all for being frustrated? Seemed like a pretty normal comment to me given the circumstance.

I care more about the race-baiting in the '08 primary. THAT was unforgivable and yet it seems they are getting a pass on it now as they play the race card in the opposite direction against Sanders.

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Response to TTUBatfan2008 (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:48 AM

55. Well to me there is a huge difference because she knew better than to say something stupid like that

 

I think he had/ or has some impulse control issues that she has never shown. I truly think she will be a much better president than he ever was. Finally- saddling her with everything her husband ever said is unfair, and yes- sexist. And it happens often. Putting his words in her mouth is always going to be a nope.
Good chatting w/ you!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:11 AM

39. all you do is run around DU bullying people for links!

almost every damn post I read of yours. You might want to read some news sometime and maybe you wouldnt be so uninformed!

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Response to m-lekktor (Reply #39)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:13 AM

41. Uninformed? I googled it and saw that it never ever happened! Now we know- You're welcome!

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #41)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:57 AM

63. It happened and here are your links.

 

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #63)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:02 AM

64. Nope- this poster was talking about Obama the NOMINEE, not the opponent! Obvs she said crappy

 

things about Obama when they were running against each other. That is not what the post I responded to was saying.
They were talking about a remark Bill made later, after BO was the nominee.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #64)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 04:44 AM

76. Okay. I didn't see the original post before it was deleted.

 

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #76)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 04:55 AM

78. It's okay. The propaganda is flying. And it was a good night for Dems despite that!

 

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:39 AM

24. She lies, distorts and obfuscates... but with a record like hers, what else is she going to do?

 

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:42 AM

25. I'm in full agreement, I'll support the Democratic nominee in the general. But she is making a lot..

 

...of the same mistakes she made in 2008. It turned people off and she ultimately lost the nomination while simultaneously putting the candidate that beat her through rigorous vetting that made that candidate a general election bad ass.

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Response to phleshdef (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:55 AM

29. It doesn't work, is the thing.

I don't understand why her people sign off on this approach. She snatched defeat from the jaws of victory exactly the same way in 2008.

It sure cuts against the "most electable" claim in my mind.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:08 AM

35. I was ignorant to how she was against Obama at first. I was FOR her!

Then as you said....it just got worse and worse in her tactics and lies and smears. It is even worse now. I am disgusted. This is not "playing smart or hard"....this makes her look ugly.

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Response to glinda (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 10:58 AM

86. Why not have an honest discussion of differences in policy?


That was where Sanders led, and Clinton seemed to be following. The fact is she is tepid on the idea of Wall Street reform, and doesn't think either single-payer healthcare or universal college tuition are feasible. She is hawkish on the Middle East, and supports the idea of American combat troops going in to clean up ... the results of the last time American combat troops went in. Sanders thinks Social Security should expand, while Clinton thinks it may require "reform" to remain in place.

There are people who agree or disagree either way.

Let's talk about whether we want to stand for Clinton's more conservative, more hawkish, more corporate-friendly take on things, or not. There are people who agree with those positions, and people who do not.

But trying to smash and discredit Sanders as feckless, or to undercut his civil rights record, or claim he is an enemy to the things Obama accomplished that progressives actually liked is fraud.

It makes me think she doesn't want to run on who she is, but rather on who Sanders is or is not. That is no way to convince people of anything.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #86)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:38 PM

98. Well said.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:08 AM

36. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, DirkGently.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:10 AM

38. Would you make an assassination remark about a friend?

 

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Response to PonyUp (Reply #38)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:08 AM

66. +1000

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:14 AM

42. She's got a lot of nerve

 

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:17 AM

45. Bottom Line: Obama didn't think she was good enough for the presidency or else she would be VP.


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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:21 AM

47. In 2008, Hillary and Obama were running against each other.

Since then, she has been his SOS and they have become friends. They keep in touch and have met for lunch several times. On occasion both presidents have met too.

The past is in the past.


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Response to Beacool (Reply #47)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 09:37 AM

82. And now she's using Obama as a cheap political prop..

 

to pander to the African American community to hide her racist policies and statements of the past.

Her dog whistle and double standard should be an issue if she chooses to become personal and sleazy.

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Response to Bohemianwriter (Reply #82)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:42 PM

92. Excuse me, but who do you think Obama wants to succeed him?

It's not Sanders.

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Response to Beacool (Reply #92)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:43 PM

93. Even if that's true, this isn't a royal succession.


Democrats have their own ideas about which of Obama's policies they want to extend, and which they do not. Hillary is more hawkish and less interested in financial reform than Obama, for example. Sanders is the opposite on both counts.

She ought to campaign honestly as right-of-Obama. Sanders is left of Obama.

Neither is Obama, or will govern like Obama.

It's a silly argument.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #93)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 05:24 PM

94. Of course it's not a royal succession.

It's even sillier bringing up the 2008 campaign. That's water under the bridge. Hillary was Obama's SOS for 4 years. Since then they have kept in touch and gotten together for the occasional lunch. They have become friends.

Sanders has always taken pride in being an Independent. The party is treating him as what he chose to be, and that was not to become a Democrat.



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Response to Beacool (Reply #94)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 06:08 PM

95. Hillary is not Obama's logical successor.

Here's what I see

1. To the extent the argument is that Hillary has been more civil and respectful toward Obama, that is untrue. The 2008 campaign is relevant because

a) Hillary took an extremely sharp line against Obama, which many found distasteful, and

b) She made the same arguments against a left-of-her opponent she is now making against Sanders, which calls into question both the accuracy of the "doers vs. dreamers" dichotomy her campaign is pushing, and whether she can win with such a tactic. Last time around neither turned out to be true.

2. To the extent Hillary is arguing to those who most support Obama now that she is the natural choice to replace him and carry on his policies, the fact is she has neither been the "nicest" to him of the two candidates on a personal level, nor is she necessarily closer to Obama politically. She is more conservative than Obama, who is more conservative than Sanders. The candidates are effectively on either side of Obama politically.

Sanders and Clinton represent two directions the Democratic Party can go after Obama. More conservative with Clinton, or more progressive with Sanders.

It's not that Hillary is like Obama and Sanders is not. They are alike and different in different ways. Sanders and Obama agree on Iraq, for example, where Hillary is more hawkish. Sanders and Obama both thought a single-payer or public option healthcare system would be best, but Hillary seems to be saying the ACA is as far as we need to go for now.

And there is this: We picked a left-of-Hillary candidate last time. So the question now is, given the option of Hillary Clinton again, and another left-of-Hillary candidate, which way we go now. Even more to the left than the last time we chose someone else over Clinton, or with her?



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Response to Beacool (Reply #92)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:01 PM

96. Because Obama wants someone who have smeared him..

 

to succeed him. Obama wants someone with a racist past. Obama wants someone who race baited him. And if he does, he will still feel the sting from your racist candidate. Her racism lies in 25 years of unrepentant war on minorities!

YOUR candidate have destroyed millions of lives!

Obama wants another war criminal to cover for him. If that be the case, I have PLENTY to reveal about the impotence of Obama as well as your bee queen. He has disappointed! It wasn't until at er that I found out that your leader is as dirty as as as ny republican.
I had high hopes for him as well as myself when I was in a dump,. but you piss on both him and me for your pathetic little politic asl dirty games. And Obama has spent 7 years to prove that he is just as corrupted as your bee queen.

Please! Don't give me the impression that you give a damn about anyone else but your own prejudices and pathetic sensitivities... You live ING your own bubble of delusion and white privilege..

I don't kin ow who you are sir, or madam, but you seem to be lost in the anus of Establishment Washington!

Have you ever been to Washington?

I was there! As an exchange student from Norway! I lived on a farm in Kansas, and got a trip to Washington on the way. I have a feeling that I have seen more of America than most of people sitting in front of their PCs thinking they are experts in solving world problems.

YOUR countrymen made me lose respect for you. Bernie Sanders have given me hope that there is some sanity left in your country of theft, genocide and slavery!

Another prob em you have is that you are so arrogant in your own little bubble that you refuse to listen to reason.

And now, you are making me think that Americans are not very educated about the world you want to rule with your "Expansionism"...Even in your own country you seem painfully ignorant about what is happening around you. And you insist on repeating the same mistake again just because you think that Hillary is entitled to be BOSS!

While your candidate has been making money out of deals with the arms industry, the social democrat was spelling alone ion Congers!

Do you remember Eli an Gonzales?





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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:25 AM

49. +10,000 Her pandering is riiculous considering the disgusting comments she has made in the past. nt

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:39 AM

51. She used Obama as a shield throughout the debate

If she hid behind Obama anymore than that she might as well put him on the stage in her place.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:49 AM

58. She's a better friend to Kissinger.

 

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 02:55 AM

62. With friends like her...

Obama in Muslim Garb

JAMES JOYNER · MONDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 2008

The Clinton campaign is circulating a 2006 photo of Barack Obama in Somali tribal clothes, playing to the “B. Hussein Obama is a secret Muslim” nonsense, and getting properly excoriated from the left and right alike. Indeed, even Robert Spencer[*] judges the “Obama-Is-Secretly-A-Muslim” rumors to be “a lot of hooey

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/obama_in_muslim_garb/

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:02 AM

65. Sanders should give her the Obama meme and let it go...

 

if the markets continue to tank and this capitalist crisis worsens more struggling people will be destroyed and somebody is getting blamed. Whether loyal Obama supporters want to admit it or not it's happening on Obama's neoliberal watch after his administration propped up these Wall Street parasites and criminal bankers again big time.

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Response to AOR (Reply #65)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:53 AM

89. Maybe? I think progressive Dems are appropriately mixed

in their attitudes about what Obama has and hasn't done. Sanders and everyone else give credit for cracking the seal on healthcare reform with the ACA, against what's turned out to be ludicrous opposition, for marriage equality and getting rid of DOMA, and so forth.

But I feel like Clinton is dodging the question of where we go next. Progressives don't want to tear down the good that Obama has done, even if they don't agree with every policy. They want to build on it and change other things.

Clinton has always been to Obama's right. There is every reason to think she will remain more hawkish and (even) less inclined toward financial reform.

We ought to have a forthright discussion about which direction we want to take things from here, instead of arguing over who is more or less Obama than thou. The fact is neither of these candidates will govern like Obama did.

The question instead should be as which one will change the right things in the right ways.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #89)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 12:00 PM

90. To the Left we must go Dirk...

 

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Response to AOR (Reply #90)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 01:39 PM

91. Seems to be what the people want.


I'm one.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:34 AM

69. This is why millennials like me don't support her.

She's mean, she's petty, and she's entitled. She thinks she's entitled to the White House.

Thank you.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 03:52 AM

72. Coattails Aint Gonna Work

 

Most people dont trust Hillary. In fact most people feel comfortable calling her a liar to her face. Hey Hillary, how about another photo of Obama in a turban to make him look like a Muslim extremist. All she has going for her is being historic as first woman president but Condaleeza couldve tried that too.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 04:51 AM

77. Remind me of her good faith arguments.

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Response to merrily (Reply #77)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 10:28 AM

85. She should argue truthfully that she's to Obama's right. Some people

clearly would support her in that. What galls is the theme that Clinton would build on Obama's accomplishments, while Sanders would tear them down.

The reality is that they bookend Obama on both the left / right spectrums, and the breadth of the Democratic Party. Sanders is one of the most progressive Dems; Hillary is one of the more conservative ones.

But she's probably read the polling that shows only something like 13% of Dems want to see a President more conservative than Obama, while most either want a more progressive candidate, or to stay right about where Obama has been.

So the question is not which of them would govern differently, or represent a different place on the spectrum than Obama. They both would.

It's a matter of in which direction. Sanders is calling for more economic reform and less war. Hillary stands for the opposite.

It's perfectly fine for all of us to disagree on which is better, but Clinton's framing that somehow she stands for everything Obama got right, and Sanders would tear it all down is facially invalid.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 09:39 AM

83. If she can just piss off enough Democrats she wins right?

 

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 09:43 AM

84. The sleaze emanating from her and her campaign

should come as no surprise. Along with her corporatist tendencies, it will likely cost her in a general election if she wins the nomination.

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:45 PM

100. Completely Agree With The OP

N/T

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Response to DirkGently (Original post)

Fri Feb 12, 2016, 11:57 PM

101. “If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position." Agreed

He wouldn't be the greatest president of my lifetime who happened to have dark pigmentation. He'd just be the greatest president of my lifetime.

That ugly stuff sure brings back bad memories.

I would laugh my ass off if the blacks in South Carolina realized Hillary was playing the race card again, smearing a good man whose got their backs, and told her what they thought of that in the voting both like the last time in '08. Probably won't happen but it sure would make my day.

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