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Tue Feb 16, 2016, 08:38 AM

Little known fact: John Kennedy had the plans for the Saturn V when he called for a Moon landing

Strange as it may seem the plans for the mighty Saturn V that boosted the Apollo crews on their way to the Moon were safely ensconced in John Kennedy's campaign documents in 1960, ready for his call on May 25, 1961 to send humans to the Moon and safely return to Earth.

After all, what use is there to have a goal without specific plans of how to reach that goal? Kennedy was no fantasist like Sanders and would never have committed our nation to shoot for the Moon unless he had a set of blueprints for the mechanism to reach that unearthly goal.

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Reply Little known fact: John Kennedy had the plans for the Saturn V when he called for a Moon landing (Original post)
Fumesucker Feb 2016 OP
orpupilofnature57 Feb 2016 #1
Bad Thoughts Feb 2016 #2
arendt Feb 2016 #3
Kittycat Feb 2016 #4
Bad Thoughts Feb 2016 #5
global1 Feb 2016 #8
Docreed2003 Feb 2016 #6
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2016 #7
joshcryer Feb 2016 #13
Docreed2003 Feb 2016 #17
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2016 #21
ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2016 #26
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #31
nichomachus Feb 2016 #29
joshcryer Feb 2016 #9
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #10
joshcryer Feb 2016 #14
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #16
joshcryer Feb 2016 #19
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #23
joshcryer Feb 2016 #24
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #27
joshcryer Feb 2016 #28
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #30
joshcryer Feb 2016 #32
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #33
Spider Jerusalem Feb 2016 #11
joshcryer Feb 2016 #15
Docreed2003 Feb 2016 #18
joshcryer Feb 2016 #20
JackRiddler Feb 2016 #12
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2016 #22
joshcryer Feb 2016 #25
uponit7771 Feb 2016 #34
NCTraveler Feb 2016 #35
uponit7771 Feb 2016 #36
NCTraveler Feb 2016 #37
uponit7771 Feb 2016 #38

Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 08:40 AM

1. The MIC took care of those plans .

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 08:48 AM

2. The plans for education and hea lth were smuggled out of Germany ... and France

... and Britain ... and Sweden ... and Denmark ... and Norway ... . They exist.

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Response to Bad Thoughts (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 08:50 AM

3. +100

The best reply to a throwaway cheapshot is snark. Massive snark.

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Response to Bad Thoughts (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:14 AM

4. I heard they let kids have recess over there

How on earth is my 3rd grader going to have time to practice and study for pretests, assessments, and standardized tests like PARCC & STARS if he's playing on a playground? He'll never get in to college like that!

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Response to Kittycat (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:16 AM

5. Didn't Arne Duncan answer that question?

NOT!

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Response to Bad Thoughts (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:35 AM

8. Score - Snarknado.....

Great response!!!

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:31 AM

6. Except your story isn't correct

[link:http://gizmodo.com/5805457/kennedys-crazy-moon-speech-and-how-we-could-have-landed-on-the-moon-with-the-soviets|]

When JFK first mentioned putting a "man on the moon in this decade", in May of 61, there was no such plan for a Saturn V rocket. The actual design phase of what would become the Saturn V didn't begin until early 62; having blueprints during the 60 campaign would have been impossible. Even if you want to use the "We choose to go to the moon" speech from '62 as your point, the story still doesn't hold water. The reason is the idea was lambasted because no one knew the costs involved and many felt the costs would be astronomical.

http://gizmodo.com/5805457/kennedys-crazy-moon-speech-and-how-we-could-have-landed-on-the-moon-with-the-soviets

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:35 AM

7. I'm pretty sure he's aware of that.

 

And it was the point of the OP actually.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:40 AM

13. The OP wanted to emphasize war economies?

Apollo got a blank check because it was literally a war effort. Watch any of Neil De Grass Tyson's dozens of talks on the subject.

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:47 AM

17. Wow...now I feel like a tool

Totally missed the sarcasm in my haste to correct the record....sorry. Well FWIW, long story short, there was no grand plan and the budget blew up astronomically from initial estimates. Here's hoping for a moon shot for this election!

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:52 AM

21. DU is home to some of the best sarcasm I've ever read, and Fumesucker is legendary in that regard.

 

It's no surprise that some didn't notice right away, and if you look downthread, some are still arguing their point LOL.

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:21 AM

26. Fantasist like Bernie? Another way the OP is not correct.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 11:06 AM

31. (sigh) See post #27

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:40 AM

29. That Kennedy -- such a dreamer. n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:37 AM

9. Saturn I was the precursor and Kennedy considered it proof of US booster superiority.

All it would have taken was a sit down in the oval office with his top intelligence guys to say "Oh, we can build something bigger?" Literally the day before his assassination he talked up US booster capability. He knew we'd be able to pull it off. It was not a question of "wild eyed dreaming."

So you're really off base here.

As far as funding the thing, however, even Neil De Grass Tyson points out that the entire Apollo program was a cold war military venture. That's why it had unlimited funding.

Why do we have to emphasize war economies to prove some stupid point here? It sucks.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:39 AM

10. That sonic boom you hear is the point flying over your head at Mach 22

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:40 AM

14. What point? War economies = good?

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:46 AM

16. I've told you before I think you are smarter than I am

I'm sure you'll figure out the meaning of my OP eventually.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:49 AM

19. 1) Kennedy believed US booster capability > Soviets.

2) Kennedy knew he had a war economy to call for and implement whatever he wanted and he did so.

Your post is completely off the mark. He didn't "need" plans if he believed US booster capability was better than the Soviets, and he didn't need to get congressional funding if he used the war economy to get the thing built.

BTW, I'm not smart at all, I just used google for two seconds and saw Kennedy's speech saying Saturn I (and its derivatives) were superior to the Russian's in every way. That's what he said publicly. Who knows what he knew privately or secretly. He knew that we could get "a" Saturn V type vehicle built, he had the advisers and intelligence people to know that.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:04 AM

23. Post #12 gets it...

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:16 AM

24. Why does mockery get more cred than commentary?

This is so fucking baffling. Literally every big popular post here is full of idiotic mockery and hateful screeds. I replied to you substantively, and I can post links, man, and yet I'm directed to a mocking post as some sort of rebuttal.

You were wrong. Kennedy knew the moon shot would fucking destroy Soviet booster ability. He was right. This is history. Go watch some Neil Degrass Tyson... read his latest book.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:23 AM

27. (sigh) OK, I'll break it down for you...

I'm poking a little gentle fun at all the posts calling for Bernie to reveal his specific plans to implement his goals by pointing out how ludicrous it would have been to expect the same of the Moon landing, a far riskier and more ambitious aim than getting the USA the same level of social support for its citizens as the rest of the developed world.

Your mistake is thinking my OP was about Kennedy and rockets when it was about plans in general.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:37 AM

28. I know what you're saying, it's a bad analogy.

Your analogy relies on Sanders having a freaking war economy!

Sanders wins for one reason, and one reason only. The youth vote historically does not get off their ass, this is uncontroversial, if Sanders wins it's because they got off their ass. Even for Obama they didn't come out 100%. If Sanders wins the primary, then he's certainly going to get that vote out for the GE. That vote would change the dynamics in congress and a lot of the stuff he wants becomes possible.

That's the whole point of primaries, and if Sanders loses, then he will have failed to get that vote out in his favor, and then it'll be a noble loss, and he would not have been able to get his stuff passed anyway. That's how it is.

Your argument is false on its face. I can understand sarcasm. Kennedy did have a good idea of US capability, he didn't need plans. Sanders, likewise, has a good idea of the vote, he doesn't need a comprehensive plan, because if he has the vote, it becomes feasible.

But it's charming you are supporting Sanders but suggesting he has no plan. He does have a plan, and that's to get elected. Simple as that.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #28)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:45 AM

30. I'm satirizing and mocking *DU* and the posters who keep putting up same stupid posts

It really has nothing to do with Sanders or a war economy or whatever, it's strictly about this little playpen called GD-P and the brain damaged memes that keep getting upchucked here on a daily basis.

You are smart, probably smarter than I am as I've said, but you are a very linear thinker and people like me tend to confuse linear thinkers.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 11:29 AM

32. And your factually meme is any better?

C'mon, give me a break. Kennedy knew that Apollo was well within feasibility. It was not a wild eyed plan. It was specifically considered to combat the soviets and it required a war economy to achieve it.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #32)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 11:32 AM

33. And Sanders knows that we can have the same things as other developed nations

It's not rocket science and unlike going to the Moon in 1961 it's been done before.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:39 AM

11. Kennedy also said he didn't really give a damn about the moon.

He only cared about beating the Soviets.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:41 AM

15. Yep. Neil Degrass Tyson makes the point eloquently.

Apollo was literally a war economy.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:49 AM

18. Interestingly...

Kennedy proposed a joint moon venture with the Russians in an address to the UN. How serious he was is anyone's guess

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Response to Docreed2003 (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:51 AM

20. He knew the Russians wouldn't go for it.

Because he knew that our capability, at the time, was 10x better. They would've basically been using our rockets and our research to get there. It was the diplomatic thing to do, though, and I truly believe Kennedy wanted peace.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 09:40 AM

12. Imagine how much harder it is to get to Denmark!

 

The moon, that's nothing.

The status quo of every industrial country as regards health, education and labor policy - that's just crazy!

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:01 AM

22. My favorite detail, and it's breathtaking in its simplicity and reward, was "all-up" testing.

 

When I first read about it I was shocked. Then, its effectiveness in regard to what it accomplished was beyond debate.

Let's subject Bernie's plans to an "all-up" test and fuck the incrementalism Hillary's selling.

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-3-4.html

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Response to cherokeeprogressive (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 10:18 AM

25. Those contractors couldn't have done it without a blank check from the government.

The war economy was real. Cost-plus inundated NASA until Obama cancelled Cx and said that launch providers didn't get a free check from the government. USAF space launch costs exceeded NASAs for years. It was shameful.

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Response to Fumesucker (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 11:33 AM

34. Can you give more detail, there's meta all over this OP... fill the rest of us in... tia

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 11:36 AM

35. Nuts and Bolts.

 

Kennedy didn't have a plan to go to the moon but we got there. Sanders doesn't have a plan for when he is President, but he will get there.

No clue how this sarcasm is suppose to be a positive for someone running for President.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 11:40 AM

36. Thank you so much. OPs point is patently wrong due to V2 rocket being a proven platform for space..

... seeing the Germans knew it was going nearly out of Earth orbit to hit London

The Germans knew from the beginning that the V2 was going into space, it was a far gone conclusion that the rocket itself could survive a trip to anywhere.

Now, the thing the US didn't have was could a mammal survive space but they got that from the Russians.


There was SOMETHING proven already before the space program but not all put together as one...


In sanders case I don't see his revolution even working on a small scale..... even in VT

If Sanders had a track record of legislative and cultural revolution I don't think HRC would've ran

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 11:44 AM

37. I view it as another attempt to attach a career politician with few victories....

 

To great leaders. It is a daily occurrence around here and in almost all instance the points fall flat from the start.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 16, 2016, 11:46 AM

38. +1

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