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Fri Feb 19, 2016, 12:55 PM

Who We Are

One of the more common rhetorical errors that supporters of Hillary Clinton make is to dismiss the concerns that others express as rehashes of the old, rabid right-wing attacks on her character from the 1990s. This is a debating tactic that attempts to score points while simultaneously distracting attention from valid concerns that many good Democrats have expressed about Ms. Clinton. The use of that tactic, in the context of the current Democratic primary, can only be attributed to one of two factors. Let’s take a moment to consider each of the two.

The first, and most common, is that the Clinton supporter resorting to this technique recognizes that the opposition has valid concerns, but is unwilling to address them. This suggests the Clinton supporter knows the concern is valid, and potentially harmful to their candidate in the primary. Thus, they attempt to divert attention to the issue, by insulting the intelligence and/or integrity of the people who sincerely pose it.

The second is that the Clinton supporter is unfamiliar with the issue, and in their ignorance, assume it is not valid. Thus, they conclude it must be a republican smear. This illustrates the shortcomings of concrete, binary thinking: one must, by definition, be either pro-Hillary, or a victim of republican propaganda. This brings to mind Mark Twain’s saying that the problem in the world today is not so much one of ignorance, as of people knowing so darned much that just isn’t so.

For sake of discussion, I shall offer myself -- DU’s humble H2O Man -- and two of my concerns about Hillary Clinton, as examples. As I have previously stated, I will support either Democratic candidate who wins our party’s nomination. Yet, I am definitely supporting Bernie Sanders. This is because I prefer his political program, and have great respect for his values and integrity. Now, let’s take a brief glance at those two pesky issues, shall we?

The first is that Hillary Clinton has been a strong advocate of hydro-fracking. I would note that her high-profile advocacy has been in recent times ….not the 1990s. More, relatively few republican officials -- at a local, state, or national level -- oppose fracking. I’ve yet to see a single republican attack Ms. Clinton on this issue. Nor, for that matter, have I seen any large, multi-national “energy” corporation engage in vicious attacks upon her character due to her pro-fracking positions.

The second would be the money that Hillary Clinton made for speaking to Goldman Sachs. This issue includes her refusal to release the transcripts of the speeches. Again, I think we could all agree that the speeches in question took place after Hillary’s time as First Lady. I will speculate, however, that if Hillary is our nominee, the republicans will seek to exploit her refusal to release the transcripts, for republicans have no shame. None.

These are important “values” issues for me. Fracking poses much the same danger to the water that human beings and other living things consume, as the horrors in Flint. Both involve politicians and business interests who are willing to poison human beings for financial gain. And, far too often, the government’s decisions on this issue have been made behind closed doors, in private, off-the-record conversations between politicians and corporations.

It is an issue that I feel strongly about, and not because of any republican propaganda from the 1990s. Or current republican lies, for that matter. Indeed, it is a value that I take full personal responsibility for. I admit to preferring clean water to toxic sludge.

The manner in which I advocate for clean water, however, has been heavily influenced, not by republicans or energy corporations, but by the decades that I served as the top assistant to Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman. In those many years, I saw Paul serve on the Onondaga Nation’s Council of Chiefs; the Haudenosaunee Grand Council of Chiefs (Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy); and as the Gauyesa Toyentha in dealings with the United Nations and the rest of the non-Indian world.

Hence, as a few older DU community members may recall, a few years back, I engaged in a hunger strike, in an attempt to convince a state senator to meet with the environmental community to discuss fracking. This fellow, who received many thousands of dollars from the Koch brothers, had dismissed environmentalists -- including scientists at top universities -- as mere tree-huggers. He has since been convicted of political corruption in federal court. His and my value systems were, and are, distinct.

The people who are supporting Bernie Sanders today are, in my opinion, much the same as those who used to come to hear Chief Waterman’s message when we spoke in small towns and large cities, to students and environmentalists, to people who believed that our society needed to change in order to survive. They are the same people who found it unacceptable when a state senator refused to talk to them, but was comfortable as a lap dog for corporate interests. They are people who think for themselves, and act for others.

Thank you,
H2O Man

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Arrow 92 replies Author Time Post
Reply Who We Are (Original post)
H2O Man Feb 2016 OP
daleanime Feb 2016 #1
H2O Man Feb 2016 #24
islandmkl Feb 2016 #2
H2O Man Feb 2016 #25
k8conant Feb 2016 #3
H2O Man Feb 2016 #26
tk2kewl Feb 2016 #4
MisterP Feb 2016 #9
tk2kewl Feb 2016 #14
H2O Man Feb 2016 #32
tk2kewl Feb 2016 #35
Saviolo Feb 2016 #44
Rockyj Feb 2016 #59
eridani Feb 2016 #60
Arazi Feb 2016 #5
H2O Man Feb 2016 #34
bigtree Feb 2016 #6
H2O Man Feb 2016 #38
Gregorian Feb 2016 #7
H2O Man Feb 2016 #39
haikugal Feb 2016 #8
H2O Man Feb 2016 #40
Voice for Peace Feb 2016 #10
H2O Man Feb 2016 #48
SoLeftIAmRight Feb 2016 #11
H2O Man Feb 2016 #49
Matariki Feb 2016 #12
H2O Man Feb 2016 #50
Punkingal Feb 2016 #13
H2O Man Feb 2016 #51
Uncle Joe Feb 2016 #15
H2O Man Feb 2016 #52
stupidicus Feb 2016 #16
H2O Man Feb 2016 #57
MadDAsHell Feb 2016 #17
casperthegm Feb 2016 #23
MadDAsHell Feb 2016 #27
H2O Man Feb 2016 #58
kgnu_fan Feb 2016 #63
malthaussen Feb 2016 #88
H2O Man Feb 2016 #90
davidthegnome Feb 2016 #18
H2O Man Feb 2016 #64
JonLeibowitz Feb 2016 #89
thereismore Feb 2016 #19
H2O Man Feb 2016 #65
retrowire Feb 2016 #20
H2O Man Feb 2016 #66
mak3cats Feb 2016 #21
H2O Man Feb 2016 #67
mmonk Feb 2016 #22
H2O Man Feb 2016 #68
annabanana Feb 2016 #28
H2O Man Feb 2016 #69
angrychair Feb 2016 #29
H2O Man Feb 2016 #72
roguevalley Feb 2016 #30
H2O Man Feb 2016 #73
Mbrow Feb 2016 #31
H2O Man Feb 2016 #74
malthaussen Feb 2016 #33
H2O Man Feb 2016 #75
Ron Green Feb 2016 #36
H2O Man Feb 2016 #76
beam me up scottie Feb 2016 #37
H2O Man Feb 2016 #77
840high Feb 2016 #41
H2O Man Feb 2016 #78
dchill Feb 2016 #42
H2O Man Feb 2016 #79
hifiguy Feb 2016 #43
H2O Man Feb 2016 #80
democrank Feb 2016 #45
H2O Man Feb 2016 #81
Zorra Feb 2016 #46
H2O Man Feb 2016 #83
immoderate Feb 2016 #47
H2O Man Feb 2016 #84
rosesaylavee Feb 2016 #53
H2O Man Feb 2016 #85
libdem4life Feb 2016 #54
H2O Man Feb 2016 #86
kgnu_fan Feb 2016 #55
H2O Man Feb 2016 #87
azmom Feb 2016 #56
ms liberty Feb 2016 #61
myrna minx Feb 2016 #62
raouldukelives Feb 2016 #70
Sensitive soul Feb 2016 #71
tblue37 Feb 2016 #82
2banon Feb 2016 #91
kgnu_fan Feb 2016 #92

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 12:58 PM

1. K&R.....

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Response to daleanime (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:43 PM

24. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 01:00 PM

2. K&R too

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Response to islandmkl (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:43 PM

25. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 01:02 PM

3. Thank you, H2O Man...

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Response to k8conant (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:43 PM

26. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 01:03 PM

4. I think there is a third possible reason for their "right wing attack" characterization

 

and that's the team or tribal nature that some who follow politics have. it's not unlike the manner in which one might reflexively defend members of ones own family when they come under attack or criticism - even when those family member may be wrong. it's not necessarily dishonest or misinformed, but a sort of protection of territory.

a few weeks back there was a good post by a Sanders supporter about how tired they had become with having to provide defenses and excuses for democrats. I think i will see if i can find it.

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:14 PM

9. Dem = LW, not-Dem = RW

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1267071
Clinton wants to sell SS (and schools, and the USPS, and Acela) to her cronies: the votaries say "she's a Democrat and the Republicans are the party of privatization: Q. E. fuckin' D."

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Response to MisterP (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:19 PM

14. that's the end game of neoliberal economics

 

The financialization of everything with the orwellian label "free trade"

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:54 PM

32. Right.

I think that this is something that can be applied to both of the other two. It's a group tactic, that attempts to deny the legitimate concerns of "others," by either mis-characterizing them as "republican," or mis-characterizing them due to a result of a lack of understanding.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:03 PM

35. the "not a Dem" argument falls into the tribal category for sure

 

there is nothing constructive about it at all, i don't even think it helps her with anyone other than those who are already firmly in her camp

most democrats know how the party has wandered from its roots

i actually admire the fact that Bernie was an independent for so long and lament the fact that normally we only get two money/media approved choices

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:57 PM

44. It's gotten really rough

I've said so in the past. Tribalism is tearing us apart.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027511056

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 02:18 AM

59. Look I am Native American...

How about CULTISH nature RATHER than TRIBAL!

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Response to Rockyj (Reply #59)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 05:06 AM

60. I agree with this. It's an in-group-outgroup thing

And people living in societies where this is determined mostly by blood relationships ARE NOT worse than other societies in this respect. The historical record would, in fact, indicate exzctly the opposite.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 01:11 PM

5. Saving our planet and HRC's support for more war are my two big issues

driving my support for Bernie Sanders. He's also closely aligned with my feelings on education reform, immigration, foreign policy, healthcare, Wall St reform etc so honestly picking a "top 2" is pretty tough.

Hillary Clinton's troubling relationship with the "shadow government" as I call it is certainly very troubling to me - shadow government meaning Big Wall St money, big Corporate interests like pharma and oil, arms sales, TPP etc. Bernie's mantra that the "system is rigged and corrupt" is very persuasive and damaging to HRC imo

Good post H2O Man and thank you for raising the tone here!

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Response to Arazi (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:58 PM

34. Very good!

That there is a "shadow government" is beyond dispute. There has been, for far too long. It's time to re-establish a citizens' government -- of the people, by the people.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 01:11 PM

6. I think folks dismiss right wing attacks

 

...for what they are.

I don't think fracking or campaign finance falls under that rubicon.

There's no denying the prevalence of right-wing directed attacks in this primary, in this forum, and they should be called out whenever and wherever they occur.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:36 PM

38. I agree with that.

As Minister Malcolm X said, not every man who tosses worms into the water is the fish's friend. Yet, there are areas where good Democrats are uncomfortable with a candidate, and where republicans also attack him/her. That does not translate into the issue being "republican," by definition. And among the problems with rational discussion on DU:GDP is the tendency of many people to assert that it does.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 01:23 PM

7. I have a question regarding the general election.

This may be obvious to some, but I'm not coming up with an answer on my own.

Let's assume she doesn't disclose her speech transcripts, and Hillary becomes the nominee. We already know that fracking isn't troubling most republicans. We also know they'll do anything to win. There's a conflict between those two scenes. I suppose the transcripts in themselves are not something they oppose. So , is this a situation where they might not demand, with the same frequency and intensity, the transcripts like Dems would? In other words, is it likely they'll go after Hillary on the transcripts in a less vigorous way, given the subject of discussion contained within the transcripts?

If I were to guess the most likely scenario, it would be that they would do everything in their power regardless of the subject. But it still begs the question of whether the topic of fracking is so toxic that they might want to avoid the discussion, at least on some level.

Thanks for another thought provoking topic.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:38 PM

39. You are correct.

Republicans will, should Ms. Clinton be nominated, attempt to exploit the failure to release the transcripts, but not because they are opposed to politicians being bought by big business.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 01:34 PM

8. Thank you!

Very well said, as usual. We must support reality.

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Response to haikugal (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:38 PM

40. Thank you!

"We must support reality." -- I love it!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:14 PM

10. Thank you, great op

 

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 05:08 PM

48. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:18 PM

11. AIR WATER FOOD - we must get these things right

 

...

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 05:09 PM

49. Right.

This requires major changes, not more of the same.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:18 PM

12. Thank you for your activism

There is little more important than clean water and environmental preservation.

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Response to Matariki (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 05:10 PM

50. Thanks!

I would like to think that I do my part. But I am preparing to do more.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:19 PM

13. Excellent, as always.

Thank you!

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Response to Punkingal (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 05:42 PM

51. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:25 PM

15. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 05:42 PM

52. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:28 PM

16. As a Clinton critic long before the first one left office

 

there'ws little to nothing that a Clinton supporter/thirdwayer could possibly say that I haven't seen before.

The simple fact of the matter is politics isn't the only thing they share in common with their rightwing cousins. As I've long observed and noted around here, starting with my participation prior to the last election, they also share their ways and means of "debating" -- like with the demonization and assorted other dodges.

ANd like with the like efforts of their cousins, it generally only leads to another in a long list of examples of where they become the best witnesses for their own prosecution, as the HC camps lies of late have shown.

This election has been a no-brainer for me from the beginning by merely weighing their past and present policy proposals and support, and things like judgement and character that flow from those positions.

It's all Bush's fault imo. Had we not had to ignore the flaws in the Clinton admin under discussion today like criminal justice and welfare reform, or his wmd lies, etc, in unity against the very real threat of rightwingnuttery we were all victimized by, we could had this intra-party battle long ago.

As I noted back then as well in my battles with the BHO-enamored crowd using the same tactics to silence his critics prior to the 2012 election, the BS-supporting/3rdway rejecting type like me likely outnumber them here on DU and in the wider electorate. It is of course my hope that the latter is established this election as the former has been in the interim.

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #16)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 12:42 AM

57. Very interesting.

Thank you for this.

For as long as I've been here, the primary seasons have been acrimonious. But, in the past, I think that there were plenty of serious discussions and debates, providing the opportunity to address important issues. There was plenty of nonsense, too. But people talked to -- and listened to -- people with differing opinions.

Used properly, I think DU serves as a hedge school. Used improperly, it reminds me of one of those gross sticky fly papers.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:28 PM

17. Most of the "free thinking" Democratic Party seems to actively avoid debate/discussion these days.

 

Whether it's calling 2016 Bernie supporters or 2008 Hillary supporters racist, or calling someone a right-wing troll, many in the Democratic Party seem absolutely terrified that they will be forced to engage in an actual discussion to defend their views.

So they will say literally anything to silence their opposition and avoid that scary reality.

The neocons were supposed to be the ones that operated that way, not us.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:42 PM

23. So true

I came to the DU hoping to find a back and forth discussion on the issues and each candidate's pros and cons. I was tired of the low information people on yahoo. Still having trouble engage in debate/discussion here though.

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Response to casperthegm (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:44 PM

27. If you came recently you picked an especially bad time. I lurked for years and it's usually...

 

pretty bad, but not this bad (Primary Season).

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 12:49 AM

58. Right.

To a large extent, during my lifetime, authoritarian republicans kept their voters inline. The "leaders" told the republican voters what they thought, what they should say, and who they were voting for. It's worked for them. Even today, when a lot of them support this "rebel" Trump, rather than machine Jeb, it's primarily because Trump out-alpha-dogged Jeb.

Democrats aren't supposed to be like that. We're not supposed to resort to the name-calling techniques in the primaries.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #58)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 10:17 AM

63. that explanation makes sense to me re: Trump nt

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #58)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:42 PM

88. I don't think so, re Trump.

That he out-alpha-dogged Jeb!, I agree, but I think his appeal to the remnants of the GOP derives from some of the same reasons that Mr Sanders is stirring up the Democrats: they've had it, and they aren't going to take it anymore. And Mr Trump easily and forcefully voices all the things his supporters have hitherto only muttered under their breaths or bellowed when in drink. That's actually a liberating and empowering message: see, it's okay to be an asshole! I think most of the good authoritarians have been driven from the GOP to the Democrats, and we know whom they support. Hence, they get no traction in the GOP.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #88)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:47 PM

90. Very well said!

If we take away each of their personal attributes, and consider only their last names, it is obvious that both the republican and Democratic establishments made serious errors when -- at a time people demand change -- they sought to serve up a "Bush vs Clinton" contest for 2016.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:30 PM

18. Great post.

To some it seems that any criticism of their candidate must be some kind of right wing attack.

I agree with you on the issue of fracking - and on the issue of Goldman Sachs. I would go further in suggesting that every single politician who voted for the IWR without reading the available documentation on the issue... is also a matter of concern for me. This is one of the reasons I voted for Obama. He had the audacity to educate himself in regards to the issue - and cast his vote with both awareness and conscience.

Our society does have to change, this is not in question, I don't think, by either side of the primary debate. The question, it seems, is whether or not we can accomplish the changes we desire and, if so, who might be better able to help bring them about. If we consider the history of both of these candidates, their stances on the issues that matter most to the common people - and the common good, then I believe that Mr. Sanders overwhelmingly comes out on top.

The super PACs, the big money... the corporate influence, the downright corruption and bribery so often involved in our campaign finance system... in particular, has to come to an end. I also do not believe that super delegates should play the part they do in our elections - or any part that permits them to cast votes as though they were a town or large group of citizens unto themselves. One person should get one vote. Regardless of whether this system has yet been abused, the potential - and the likelihood of this taking place... is very threatening to any notion that we are in fact a democratic Nation.

Honestly, I am disgusted with political/campaign finance. Candidates are taking money from people and corporations that represent the very worst, the most despicable, of what humanity has to offer. For profit prisons... financial.. "institutions" that brought down our economy - and could very well do so again..., the Federal reserve (neither actually federal, nor actually a reserve...) and so on.

Of course, that is often how it works here in America - for profit prisons, for profit universities, for profit medicine.... the way of our society, it seems, is to put money first. The time is coming, I think, when wealth will no longer be viewed by our society as some kind of superiority, evidence of greatness, strength, or value as it relates to humanity overall...

There are a lot of things about my Country that I dislike. Some of them are represented and promoted by Clinton, through her actions, words - and ultimately, through her campaign.

Bernie isn't perfect (and would be the first to tell you so), by any means, but he's someone I will proudly stand with and support, because I believe he represents the best in us, as Americans, as people of common decency, empathy, courage... compassion.

It seems to me that the Bern is getting stronger and stronger every day... let's win an election!

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 10:47 AM

64. Thanks, David!

Very good response -- I agree 100%. I think that there has always been corruption in Washington. But, up until the Gilded Age, it wasn't the driving force. Even beyond that, up until the post-Reagan era, there were numerous good Democrats, who believed in what the Constitution states clearly -- government for the people, by the people. It is the injection of huge amounts of campaign cash that has castrated their ability to be (semi-) honest.

Sanders is offering a "new" way to recapture the ability to return to a constitutional democracy.Obviously, his campaign is imperfect -- being comprised of human beings, it cannot be otherwise. But democracy is a process, an on-going struggle.

Let's win this election!

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:47 PM

89. One thing -- Obama did not vote on the IWR.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:33 PM

19. Kick!

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Response to thereismore (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 10:47 AM

65. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:33 PM

20. knr and GASP!

...Is this the backstory to your username?! H2O MAN!?

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Response to retrowire (Reply #20)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 10:50 AM

66. Thank you.

Yes, it is.

(It's also the title of a book my sons wrote about Paul and I. They released 330+ pages of "transcripts," so to speak.)

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:33 PM

21. K & R... Another very thought-provoking post; thanks! (eom)

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Response to mak3cats (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 10:51 AM

67. Thank you!

It is posts such as your's that make me think what I do here is worthwhile. I appreciate that very much!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:36 PM

22. With you all the way on that and add in protections

are not really in place financially concerning too big to fail and risk as well. Being dismissed on these issues by those who supposedly represent us is not only annoying, but leaves people in an angry and negative place when we need to come together for our future.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #22)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 10:52 AM

68. Absolutely!

Like-minds. It's a great pleasure to be on the same team with you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:45 PM

28. Your considered, reasoned voice in this forum

is like cool running water in the desert..

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Response to annabanana (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 10:53 AM

69. Thank you, Anna B!

You are The Best!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:45 PM

29. K&R

Great OP...thanks H2O Man!



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Response to angrychair (Reply #29)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:10 PM

72. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:49 PM

30. wonderful, wonderful post. thank you, H2O Man

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #30)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:10 PM

73. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:52 PM

31. K&R

Thanks!

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Response to Mbrow (Reply #31)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:11 PM

74. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 02:55 PM

33. Not much to add, here.

I suppose there is another agenda that guides the Clinton apologists, a sort of pretzel-logic belief that, if your issues with the candidate are not sufficient to be a deal-breaker, you should say nothing in the name of solidarity. Of course, if your issues with the candidate are a deal-breaker, then you are ipso facto a fool and want to see Ted Cruz in the White House.

It occurs to me that many of Mrs Clinton's supporters are not quite clear on what a primary is for.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #33)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:16 PM

75. Right.

Primaries provide a unique opportunity to discuss issues, including individual/group values, and character. That seems to difficult a task for some of our friends here. I find it curious that, so far as I can tell, only one Hillary supporter has taken the time to respond to this OP in a rational manner -- the high-quality of conversation I've come to respect him for. But, other than that, it's silence from the other camp.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:10 PM

36. Highly recommended. Thanks once again.

One more factor in looking at the difference in motivation for support or criticism is fear of change, vs. courage to embrace change. Both the SOP of fracking and the hegemony of Goldman Sachs have become the norm, something away from which we must change, with difficulty.

That takes courage, which we have to exercise collectively.

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Response to Ron Green (Reply #36)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:20 PM

76. Great point, Ron.

To see this through, it requires courage. And clearly, as you indicate, not only on Bernie's part. It means that all of us have to do our part. We have to step up to a higher level, just as those people who supported Martin Luther King, Jr.'s brave leadership did.

I really appreciate your post. It's funny: one of the topics I'm thinking of writing about next is what it really requires of all of us to make the revolution succeed. Your contribution here makes me think it might be the right time to address that topic.

Your friend,
Pat

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:21 PM

37. K & R! Well said!


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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #37)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:21 PM

77. Thank you!

A "K&R" from you means a great deal to me.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:40 PM

41. Thank you. K/R

 

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Response to 840high (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:22 PM

78. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:51 PM

42. K&R&H2O

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Response to dchill (Reply #42)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:22 PM

79. Thank you, Friend dchill!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 03:53 PM

43. Outstanding post.

 

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Response to hifiguy (Reply #43)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:23 PM

80. Thanks!

Much appreciated!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 04:03 PM

45. Thank you for another thoughtful post, H20 Man.

Think for yourself and act for others. So simple and so beautiful.

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Response to democrank (Reply #45)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:25 PM

81. Thank you!

"Think for yourself and act for others" has been the foundation for raising children among the Six Nations for thousands of years.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 04:05 PM

46. Well said.

Just thinking about fracking can make me cry, and sometimes causes me to feel slightly ill. It is a monstrous, profound insult to everything sacred in my world.

So grateful to be part of this movement, and among this large group of kind, conscious people. Thanks again, so very much, for your sacrifice and struggle to end this insane practice of fracking.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #46)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:28 PM

83. Thanks, Zorra.

When I think about fracking et al, I often find myself remembering the prophesy of the Ancient Ones, who spoke of dark forces being released from under the soil. I miss being able to talk to Paul about these issues. So it is good to be able to converse with people who understand.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 04:05 PM

47. "... needs to change, in order to survive..."

 

A good summary.

--imm

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Response to immoderate (Reply #47)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:30 PM

84. Exactly right!

It's as simple as that. Attempts to make things "better" while continuing to behave the same is no better than outright denial of climate change, etc.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 05:59 PM

53. Another great post!

I am with you on both points. I would add that Climate Change is not something she brings up or responds to passionately.

Senator Sanders quick response that he believes it's a moral issue and a crisis we need to address agressively is what first drew me to look at him more closely.

I remember your hunger strike. I know far more now than I did then about fracking and her involvement in that industry gives me chills to think of another Clinton presidency.

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Response to rosesaylavee (Reply #53)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:32 PM

85. Thank you, my Good Friend!

I don't believe that one can be invested and tied to the "business-as-usual" energy corporations, and be sincere about protecting the living environment.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 11:26 PM

54. Now your DU handle is clear...thank you for your work for all of these years and for this post.

 

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Response to libdem4life (Reply #54)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:37 PM

86. Thanks, libdem4life!

I was fortunate to have two extraordinary mentors in my early life -- both of whom I was very close to until their passing -- Chief Paul Waterman and Rubin "Hurricane" Carter. My children knew Paul as their favorite grandfather, and Rubin as their favorite uncle. I try to pass on some of the things that they taught me over the decades.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 11:33 PM

55. Thank you, H2O Man.... As always, words of wisdom and truth bring peace nt

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Response to kgnu_fan (Reply #55)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:37 PM

87. Thank you!

I appreciate that you know what my goal is!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Feb 19, 2016, 11:39 PM

56. Kick

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 09:49 AM

61. K&R for another excellent post, H2O Man...

And a great discussion throughout, I can always depend on your posts as a sane respite from the "sticky fly paper" that is DU during the Primary Wars. Loved that analogy of yours upthread, it is the perfect description!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 10:17 AM

62. Wonderful essay. K&R

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 11:05 AM

70. K&R Proud to be a tree hugger. Proud to stand with you. nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)


Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:26 PM

82. KnR for visibility. nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:50 PM

91. Get This to the TOP of the page! Excellent Post, Thank You again!

 



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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Feb 20, 2016, 03:02 PM

92. kick for more eyeballs opportunities..... good read nt

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