Hillary Clinton Will Never be President of the United States

[SheenaR]

There is a great deal of passion on both sides of this Democratic coin this election season. The GD-P Board is constantly filled with posts attacking both candidates. Some are substantive and some are posted by people who have literally been quoted admitting they are just trolling.

This is not about that. This is about something far more serious that needs to be driven home.

Hillary Clinton will never be President of the United States. Not now. Not ever.

Now right away, some of you have already stopped reading and have gone to the comments to tell me that I am wrong and that Senator Sanders will never be President either. That's fine. I expect that you will write your own OP on this matter.

She very well may win the nomination. She still will never be President.

I cannot put this any more delicately than this: During this campaign, Hillary Clinton has had the opportunity of her lifetime to display to the American public why she should be the entrusted with the privilege of being President. She has had the opportunity to win back the trust (the trust she has admitted she knows she needs to earn back) of the electorate and has continuously failed to do so. She has had the opportunity to be transparent and be an open book to show how honest she actually is. Countless examples of her failure in this matter are alarming. Forget just the e-mails and transcripts, and YouTube videos showing her dishonesty. How about the little things? How about that journalists, working hard, have traveled with her for months. And the last question she fielded from them was ten weeks ago. That is not a transparent campaign.

Like it or not, she is not viewed as genuine. Two people who ARE viewed as genuine? Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Trump is a national disgrace and an embarrassment at every turn, yet people believe him to be honest and genuine. Again, Hillary Clinton may win the nomination, but how on God's green earth will she be able to run on her own words and record when Trump will destroy her at every turn. Let's not forget that Bernie Sanders is going EASY on her. Now take a look at what Trump is doing to his OWN party. Do you think that worse isn't on its way?

Yet again though, the comments will say, "Bernie will get eviscerated by Trump too". On what grounds? Are there videos of him demonizing racial groups or homosexuals? No. Is there a 13 minute loop of him lying about every position he stands for? No. Are they going to call him old and grouchy? Is that what will tip the scales? Are they going to call him a Socialist? Is that the hard hitting attack they will go on, when a good percentage of the electorate is not turned off by that word? Is the FBI investigating his actions or the actions of those close to him?

But yes, she will have the vote of POC. I don't deny that. Let's look at those states: South Carolina (Red 9 straight times), Georgia (Red last 5 times, 7 out of last 8), Alabama (Red 9 straight times), Mississippi (Red 9 straight times). The list goes on.

Fine fine... Even though that's her "Strength", they will say, "We wouldn't win those anyways". How about battleground states? Colorado, where she is losing ground daily to Sanders (Red 7 of the last 10 times). Iowa, which turned out in record number for the Republican primaries and where she could not get a majority of Democratic votes? There goes 6 more electoral votes. New Hampshire? There goes 4 more. Nevada? Where Trump is expected to cruise to victory again? 6 more gone. And we haven't heard one attack in this GE campaign and we already losing our previously expected plurality. The list goes on.

Attack those numbers too. That's fine. Nowhere will we see an issue based response as to why she would win those in a GE, but those numbers will be attacked. It's fine. She will never be President.

I keep hearing about how crucial this GE is. How it is vital to have a liberal leaning Supreme Court? Then why are we marching in like lambs to the slaughter with a candidate whose resume is stacked with some impressive positions, but whose campaign has done nothing but trend downward for almost an ENTIRE year. Where is this bounce for her coming from? Do you think its coming from Sanders supporters? Sure count on a lot of us. Not everyone. Is it coming from Independents? Not by the looks of it.

There's only one candidate who can win this GE for us and it's Bernie Sanders. (And no, I did not ever picture myself saying that a couple of years ago).

Everything about his candidacy gives us a better shot of the White House and that is the damn goal. Too idealistic? So be it. We will have the White House. Want to go on that "realism" platform? The White House will be theirs. I try every day to find the silver lining. I am an activist, volunteer, and I have a career. I take NO pride in declaring we would lose. But the simple fact is every day she turns more and more people away rather than toward her.

And that is why Hillary Clinton will never be President of the United States.

Note: This is an opinion piece about the Primary Election and the subsequent General Election. At no point have I violated TOS, nor are my opinions derogatory in nature. You may disagree with them. That's fine.

Edit: I'm going to let this sit and I will go eat some lunch now. I hope this can enable some solutions to be discussed as to how we can actually change this and win in November

[Jester Messiah]

1. Don't forget...

It almost seems like she and her surrogates are actively trying to alienate Bernie supporters. She's not going to win because she's giving the finger to people who would ideally (in terms of her campaign) form half her base.

[SheenaR]

5. Which is a huge part of my concern

And its not faux concern. I just left it out because I didn't want to get hidden for talking too much about Sanders supporters who will never come aboard.

[CorporatistNation]

292. As The Entry Polls Consistently Demonstrate... It's Da Lies Stupid...

&ebc=ANyPxKonX9TWGbKpXHgBcJ2D_kmiuRLFbmFU6lrWY_Pot1ZS38-yUxtXmjM6_6S6v0YOT7HYuQBfuRmR9rHFAn0PsUErYBdI0Q

[Carolina]

303. I cannot fall in line and get on board the Hillary Coronation train

At my age and now living a very red state (where it won't matter in the general), I refuse to vote for the not-so-lesser-of-two-evils.

Progressives, FDR/JFK liberals have been marginalized by the Democratic Party for too long. Corporate owned DINOs like HRC, DWS and their ilk no longer deserve our support.

[GoneFishin]

152. Because she is a 1%er first and a Democrat second. So keeping Bernie out if the WH is top priority.

Burning the Democratic party to the ground is just necessary collateral damage to make sure no 99%ers get into the White House.

[tomp]

236. that is true of the democratic party power structure as a whole

this has been shown over and over--they would rather lose the election than actually be progressive.

[GoneFishin]

251. Yep. It's disgusting and disappointing that more people don't see through that crap.

[SheenaR]

2. I didn't even bother to address

- TPP support and generally awful trade support in her history
- Iraq
- Fracking Support
- Wall Street Support



I figured those amongst others would be obvious GE fodder.

[tonybgood]

260. don't forget the Patriot Act

[Cassiopeia]

3. Excellent post.

We need to look at things with a healthy dose of reality. Clinton can not win the GE and having her in the GE will hurt us in all of the down ticket races as well.

Clinton is not a risk we can afford.

[trueblue2007]

48. it is not EXCELLENT. This OP is Very very anti Democrat.

[Cassiopeia]

57. An opinion on the outlook of the election is anti Democrat?

Please go on.

[Conium]

247. DU has been infilthrated by Republicans.

RepUGLYcans want Bernie Sanders to be the Democratic nominee. They and the news media painted Silver Star recipient George McGovern as a communist in 1972. If anyone believes Sander's 1985 escapades with Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega and Sandinista leftists in 1985 will receive a pass after the convention, they are deluding themselves. I will be voting for a real Democrat, not a Bernie-come-lately.

[Cassiopeia]

252. Are you trying to indicate that the poster is a Republican?

I think this is a lazy excuse to ignore posts. Many life long liberals and progressives are infuriated with the status quo and are fighting like crazy for Bernie.

You can be lazy and just call us republicans, but I'm betting that's true for maybe 1 in a 100 you think are doing so.

[AgingAmerican]

258. You are red baiting

Which is what Republicans do.

[Carolina]

304. 114 posts makes you an authority on DU

Au contraire. Real progressives, Real DEMOCRATS are raging against the machine as represented by HRC, DNC Chair DWS and other corporate owned third-way New Democrats, aka repuke-lites.

Bernie has been more of Democrat than HRC ever was. She voted for W's IWR, Patriot Act and Bankruptcy Bill. She is part of the Clinton legacy of NAFTA, Welfare Reform, Three Strikes and the real biggie -- overturning Glass-Steagall. All of which were largely gifts to Wall Street since welfare deform and three strikes feed the privatized prison industrial complex. Then there's her tenure as SOS which was a neocon's dream come true with more war, more regime change and more disaster for all except the war profiteers of the MIC. If that is a record of a real Democrat, then you low poster, may be just what you are calling others.

[mgmaggiemg]

327. agree

[roguevalley]

80. she is ready to be all things (moderate, centrist, liberal) to all men and nothing to nobody.

[trueblue2007]

113. I AM 65 YEARS OLD AND I'VE PROB BEEN A DEMOCRAT LONGER THAN YOU HAVE BEEN ALIVE

Don't you DARE call me a former republican and secret FOX news fan. You're slime for calling me names.

I AM A DEMOCRAT, so hang me or throw me in the stocks for supporting FORMER FIRST LADY, FORMER SENATOR & Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
I will support either Democrat in the General election.

So Agent46, i pity you for trying to throw me in the mud. Bad mouth.

[C Moon]

219. +1

[Conium]

248. +1

Well said trueblue2007

[Herman4747]

249. And don't you be calling the OP "very, very Anti-Democrat," okay?

[Fla Dem]

253. Right there with you. We will prevail over the mudslinging.

Gallup
POLITICS DECEMBER 28, 2015
by Jeffrey M. Jones

Clinton Most Admired Woman for Record 20th Time

PRINCETON, N.J. -- Americans again name Hillary Clinton and President Barack Obama the woman and man living anywhere in the world they admire most. Both win by wide margins over the next-closest finishers, Malala Yousafzai for women and Pope Francis and Donald Trump for men.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/187922/clinton-admired-woman-record-20th-time.aspx

[mgmaggiemg]

328. good response

[SheenaR]

106. Absolutely not

I am trying to be a single voter voicing their concern that the Party needs to have a far better GE plan. So we can win. Very Democratic

[chervilant]

144. Are you familiar with "react mode"?

That's where Hi11ary is right now. She's defensive and that means the persons to whom she is reacting are controlling the dialogue.

We cannot afford to have Hi11ary "win" the nomination.

#NotMeUs

[cui bono]

159. In what way? n/t

[rhett o rick]

200. What is anti-Democratic is taking money (30 - 50 million dollars) from major corporations

and then pretending to be for the People.

[mgmaggiemg]

325. agree

[leftofcool]

4. Yawn

[SheenaR]

7. Get some rest

Going to be a long 2016 for you no matter how you slice it

[catnhatnh]

6. Disagree...

I was lucky to recommend this before it jumped to the greatest page! Good job.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

8. The election will be decided by the swing states.

Who can win the swing states?

[seaotter]

29. Bernie, it seems.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

38. I think that is true.

And we need only a few of the swing states

[JDPriestly]

225. I think he will win Florida quite easily.

What about Ohio? That's a little more problematic in my view. Nina Turner is a great advocate for Bernie. She is a wonderful lady with a huge heart, and she speaks so well. Hopefully she will be a determining factor in Bernie's favor in Ohio. She has been a courageous leader there, especially on women's issues as I understand it.

I think Bernie will sweep the West Coast states when the time comes.

[Tarc]

9. Ignorance and naivete

The American public will never vote in a racist ideologue like Trump or Cruz, either Clinton or Sanders will wipe the floor with whoever eventually emerges from the GOP's race to the bottom.

[SheenaR]

17. Tarc I honestly hope you are right

and that I am wrong. Obviously I do not think I am wrong, but I'll gladly eat crow to keep Trump et. al out of the WH.

Do not underestimate this Trump crowd. Somehow intellectuals are now buying his crap. And his following is downright frightening.

I'm not ignorant or naïve though, I will add.

[roguevalley]

81. polls show independents in good numbers going to Trump rather than HRC if she is the one. She will

lose moderate republicans in play and independents. She's toying poorly with the left. Some politicians believe you can trounce people in the primary and then turn around and smile at them in the general believing they will come. Many of them, too many won't.

[beaglelover]

92. Then the independents are fucking idiots. Hillary and Bernie agree on 99% of the issues. If an

independent will switch to Trump if Hillary is the nominee, then they are not intelligent enough to vote.

[Armymedic88]

105. Independents vote in large part for who they trust!!

May not like it but that's the way it is.

[arlington.mass]

114. Not idiots

They're not idiots

They believe Bernie and don't believe Hillary - it's that simple

[roguevalley]

119. your anger though probably merited matters not a bit because they will DO IT. All the screaming and

yelling mean nothing. If she is the one, they break for Trump. Being mad at them changes nothing.

[beaglelover]

158. Well if we have to have an R POTUS, I'd rather it be Trump versus the rest of the idiots.

[cui bono]

161. So you're saying it's either Hillary or Trump? Why not put up Bernie since he can beat Trump?

[corkhead]

243. .

[beaglelover]

271. If Bernie is the D candidate, we will lose in a landslide. The R smear machine has not even begun

on Bernie and has been pounding Hillary for 20 years. Overall, the US is populated by idiots who will believe the socialist smear, deadbeat dad smear, lazy bum he didn't get a job until he was 40 smear, etc, etc, etc. We're complete toast if Bernie is our nominee. So, we'll end up with whoever the R candidate is for POTUS. I hope it is Trump since he's the best of the worst.

[cui bono]

276. They have begun, and there's nothing to pund him about in comparison to Hillary.

Plus Hillary will probably be indicted right before the general.

You didn't bring up the trust numbers. Bernie had a 96% trust rating and Hillary has 6%. The people simply will not come out to vote for Hillary like they will for Bernie.

Hillary also has a very high unfavorable rating, Bernie's is positive. No candidate has ever won the GE with an unfavorable rating.

Because of both of those and her corporate ties, many Dems will simply not vote for her. They'll just stay home because there is no enthusiasm factor with her, it's just the same old same old with her, so many people will get apathetic and feel like it doesn't make a difference if they vote anyway, because they are only given business as usual to vote for and they are sick of that. Bernie has gotten Dems excited about getting money out of politics - which is how he is running his campaign, so we know that is already happening with him - and making govt work for the people again instead of the 1%. He is not just a bunch of hot air, he is the real deal and shows us that by how he is financing his campaign. The people are showing up in droves to see him which shows how enthusiastic they are about him and what he fights for. You can't buy that.

Then there's the independents and crossover vote factor. These are the people who would come out to vote for Bernie in the GE because the GOP candidates are all crazy. But if Hillary is the other choice again, they may not vote at all, or will vote against her and vote GOP.

Then there's the staunch Republicans who may not vote at all given that their candidates are crazy and maybe they aren't active anyway and don't make it a point to vote. But if Hillary is the candidate they will absolutely make it a point to vote just to vote against her. They loathe her. As you said, there's been decades of RW attacks on her and they will do whatever they can to stop her from being president. But they don't mind Bernie, in fact, a lot of them like what he says and like that he's so authentic and they know he means what he says.

So if you want to assure a Democrat gets in the White House, you better hope Bernie wins the nomination.

.

[bvar22]

229. Hillary and Bernie agree on 99% of the issues???!!!!

Not even close.

* Sanders has supported gay rights since 40 years ago. Clinton and Republicans have not.

* Sanders wants to end the prohibition of marijuana. Clinton & The Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to end the death penalty. Clinton and Th Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders wants to break up the biggest banks. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders voted against the Wall Street bailout. Clinton and the Republicans (and too many "Democrats) did not.

* Sanders introduced legislation to overturn Citizens United. Clinton and The Republicans did not.

* Sanders refuses to accept money from super PACs. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders supports a single-payer healthcare system. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders refrains from waging personal attacks for political gains. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders considers climate change our nation's biggest threat. Clinton and The Republicans do not.

* Sanders opposed the Keystone XL Pipeline since day one. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders voted against the Patriot Act. Clinton and the Republicans did not.

* Sanders voted against the war in Iraq. Clinton and The Republicans did not.

* Sanders wants to Raise (or eliminate) the CAP on FICA deductions. Clinton and the Republicans do not.

* Sanders opposes unrestricted "Free Trade". Clinton and the Republican do not.

Those are just a few major issues off the top of my head.

Please list the 99% of the issues on which Hillary agrees with Bernie.

[mark67]

244. My concern is you can be right but still lose big in a general election...

...forgive my cynicism. But Bush was reelected to office 12 years ago.

I recently saw photos of Trump and Sanders side by side and, sorry to say, it's looks like Mr. McGoo vs. the Master of the Universe. Even Nate Silver, I believe, said Sanders would lose to Trump.

Most voters probably don't hang around Democratic Underground. Many are probably afraid of the word socialist. And your Republican friend who tells you how much he admires Sanders (but would probably never vote for him) should probably be taken at face value.

I'll vote for Sanders if he gets the nomination but I fear a McGovern 2016 repeat.

[cui bono]

261. You should make this an OP.

And title it Bernie and Hillary do NOT agree on 99% ofthe issues.

In fact, there should be multiple OPs about it since this had become a meme lately.

I keep seeing that lately and it's so not true. I don't understand her supporters trying to convince everyone she's just like Bernie. If you like Bernie so much then vote for him! He's proven he's electable.

[NorthCarolina]

246. I personally see well more than 1% difference between Bernie and Hillary.

Claiming they agree 99% on issues is nothing more than wishful thinking on the part of Hillary fans. The differences are YUUUGE!

They differ on how to handle Social Security with Bernie firmly in the "raise the cap" camp and Hillary somewhere in the "means testing" and "chained CPI camp" and commenting that "raising the cap" well that's just "one possibility". Yes it is, just not HER possibility.

They differ on healthcare which Bernie sees as a RIGHT of all Americans requiring a single payer system, whereas Hillary still sees an important role for private for-profit insurance brokers.

They differ on TRADE AGREEMENTS.

They differ on the MINIMUM WAGE.

They differ on diplomacy vs war, and how to handle the situation in the Middle East.

They differ on access to a college education for our youth.

I could go on but whats the use. Tell me, do you HONESTLY believe only 1% separates these two candidates on policy? 1%? Really?

[KingCharlemagne]

130. All leftists must 'hope for the best, but plan for the worst.' I know I am, although

I am currently working for Sanders' nomination.

Imagine a President Trump leading a bi-cameral Republican Congress. That should scare the shit out of every good-faith user of this board.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

42. They voted for Bush. Twice.

There's plenty of ignorance and naivete out there to go around, apparently.

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 (n/t)

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

68. And what difference did that make in the end?

He lost by half a million votes (1/2% of the total cast). The fact that there's 51 million people who thought he was worth a vote in 2000, and 62 million in 2004 is clear evidence that Trump, Cruz, or anyone else in the clown car could win against either Clinton or Sanders. Clinton will have a much harder time given her net negative approval rating, there's simply no arguing against that.

[Beowulf]

61. Forty years ago Democrats were saying the American public would never vote for a shallow movie actor

for president. That line of thought worked out well for us.

[maddiemom]

103. And since then, the Repugs have gone and sainted that shallow actor...

although you can pretty much trace the U.S. downward spiral to his time in office. Poor old Ike, a far superior president, is forgotten unless his party condemns him as too liberal. Hell, even Pres. Obama claimed to have admired the Gipper (???). I'm a senior citizen now, and just hoping to hang on long enough to see Reagan justifiably forgotten, if not (too much to hope for) put in his proper place. Future generations should find the RWR worship very sad for the Republicans,but, unfortunately tragic for the country. Is it true that the air traffic controllers and pilots still refer to Reagan National Airport as just NATIONAL Airport?

[raging moderate]

176. Years ago, when I was a tourist in DC, several people around town told me that.

I had identified myself as an Obama supporter, and when I said I had flown in to Reagan airport, they winked and told me, "That's National Airport to us."

[Carolina]

302. certainly to long term DCers

it will always be Washington National Airport or simply National. I grew up in DC and lived there for nearly 41 years. When I fly back there now, to the place that will always be the home of my heart, I fly into National and correct anyone who calls it Reagan. Using a twist on words/names, I say it was already, appropriately named for the 1st president

Reagan was awful and when the repukes renamed my home town airport, I was appalled. If you ever have the chance to visit, the old terminal building is still there engraved: Washington National Airport

[Logical]

185. Have you seen her "trust" numbers? nt

[Fast Walker 52]

241. I sure would like to think that

I just don't know any more. I don't see how the GOP is a freaking viable party after all the horrendous shit they've done... and yet, they have a significant chance of winning the presidency.

[Kittycat]

10. Well written

It bothers me that our party is in this position.

[onehandle]

11. Naderspeak lives. nt

[Jester Messiah]

13. If the Dem candidate that year had been strong enough to win his home state...

Nader wouldn't have been a problem. Learn from history. Put up a better candidate.

[Ned_Devine]

31. exactamundo

[Buzz cook]

74. There was massive voter suppression in Tennessee during the 2000 election

But thanks for bringing back a right wing talking point.

http://www.alternet.org/story/10589/vote_fraud_in_tennessee%3A_worse_than_florida

[Jester Messiah]

75. Make excuses, or win an election. You can do one or the other, but not both. [nt]

[Buzz cook]

312. Sweet Jezuz

You really are a naif. Read up on election 2000 till then, I hear your mommy calling you.

[Jester Messiah]

315. Really? That's not what I hear.

I hear someone who just ran out of ammo resorting to "mommy" talk to try and cover for it. Why don't you run home and get your shine box.

[Buzz cook]

317. Ammo? here read this

http://dailyhowler.com/

Start in 1999 and work your way forward and you can see it unfold.

Or you could read the book here.

http://www.howhegotthere.blogspot.com/

If you want shorter forms there are these.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/06/yes-bush-v-gore-did-steal-the-election.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0120-04.htm

But wait why am I posting this when you obviously didn't read my first link. Thus naif.
Your a person that believes stuff you "here" and don't want to bother learning anything that might shake your certitude.

[Jester Messiah]

321. Oh look a bunch of blogspam.

Buzz off, Buzz.

[Buzz cook]

335. So you're not even going to make the effort?

Not surprising.

[BlueMTexpat]

44. +1!

SSDD

[frylock]

52. Lieberspeak fail.

[HooptieWagon]

203. More Democrats voted for Bush than Nader.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

205. Well said.

[amborin]

254. +10000

[Carolina]

305. K&R

Excellent post and oh, so true!

[workinclasszero]

14. Hillary will be president or Trump/Cruz will

[Helen Borg]

19. But she loses badly to Cruz...

That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. The polls say she is a whole eight tenth of a percentage point

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls


The polls indicate she is a whole eight tenth of a percentage point behind Ted Cruz, Ms. Borg, but please don't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

[Helen Borg]

90. I hope she is proud of that.

Sanders, on the other hand...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. Ms Borg, you just said she loses badly to Cruz

Helen Borg (2,843 posts)
19. But she loses badly to Cruz...

That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

Instead of saying "I was wrong. Thank you for pointing it out" , you doubled down.

If you believe losing by 8/10 of a percentage point "is losing badly" there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion:


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls

[Helen Borg]

115. She is losing by more than 8/10th of a point.

She is losing by at least 3 points.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. The aggregate polling suggests she is losing by 8/10 of a point

Helen Borg
115. She is losing by more than 8/10th of a point.
View profile
She is losing by at least 3 points.

The aggregate polling suggests she is losing to Cruz by 8/10 of a point:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls


I will leave it readers of our posts to decide whether they believe you or their lyin eyes.

[Helen Borg]

138. We can go on discussing by how much Hillary is losing.

That is fine with me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. As Mao said "before you speak, investigate."

Helen Borg (2,843 posts)
19 But she loses badly to Cruz...

That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

The polls don't say what you said they say:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls


If you believe losing by 8/10 of a percent is losing badly there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion, lol

[Helen Borg]

149. For an electable candidate, she is losing badly

[DemocratSinceBirth]

151. You made an erroneous claim.

Helen Borg (2,843 posts)
19 But she loses badly to Cruz...

That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

The polls don't say what you said they say:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html#polls


If you believe losing by 8/10 of a percent is losing badly there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.


You made an erroneous claim. Do the right thing , admit it, and move on.

[azurnoir]

263. Lol fact is she still loses and in fact by more than Bernie 'lost' to her in Iowa

[DemocratSinceBirth]

264. Non responsive.

But that's the difference between yous (sic) and me. The solid moral instruction I received compels to admit that when I make a mistake I admit it and move on.

The solid moral instruction I received also compels me to not allow myself to be bullied.

[azurnoir]

265. what are you even talking about? I pointed out a fact and perhaps you should check username

you're responding to and apply some of those morals you were taught

[DemocratSinceBirth]

266. The genesis of this whole sub thread...

The genesis of this whole sub thread can be found here:

Helen Borg (2,843 posts)
19. But she loses badly to Cruz...


That is what the polls say. Everything else is pure speculation.

I had the temerity to suggest that assertion was ludicrous in light of the fact that losing by 8/10 of a percent is not losing badly, ergo



http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_cruz_vs_clinton-4034.html

[azurnoir]

268. I know the genesis I followed it to the point where I replied to you

but it's a fractions quibble nothing more which was my point anyway you slice it Hillary lost

[DemocratSinceBirth]

269. By 8/10 of a point.

If you believe an 8/10 of a percentage point deficit is insurmountable there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

[Feeling the Bern]

193. You're going to use a man whose policies and actions caused the deaths of at least 100 million

Chinese from 1933-1976? Not a good person to quote.

Mao also said of people who try to commit suicide during the cultural revolution: "Those who commit suicide, do not attempt to stop them. China is such a populous country. It's not like we can do without a few souls."

You're quoting a man that during the policy of Zhen Fan, dictated that at least .1% of the Chinese population needed to be executed "to sedate the people's anger."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

199. That's a classic ad hominem fallacy.

Last edited Sat Feb 20, 2016, 01:01 AM - Edit history (1)

Attacking the messenger*

Before you speak, investigate

If Pol Pot said "holding your breath for one hour can cause death" his advice would be just as sound as if Socrates said it.





* As an aside, I see too much of it here...

[Feeling the Bern]

209. You can use the worst mass murderer in human history to validate your points

And I am not attacking you, but if you think I am, you need to develop thicker skin. This is politics and it's not for the weak.

"Seek Truth From Facts" - Deng Xiaoping

[DemocratSinceBirth]

233. If you believe

And I am not attacking you, but if you think I am, you need to develop thicker skin. This is politics and it's not for the weak.

If you believe talking tough on the internet makes you strong there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion. It's how you carry yourself in real life that counts.

"Seek Truth From Facts" - Deng Xiaoping

And it's interesting you would quote Deng Xiaoping after criticizing me for quoting Chairman Mao when they are both products of the same totalitarian regime.

[Feeling the Bern]

234. And I live in that country. . .and my wife is from that country

And if you think Deng is the same as Mao, this conversation is over.

Dig those heels in!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

235. The point was that neither is a small d democrat.

We are straying. The point is when one attacks the messenger, regardless of who the messenger is, and not his or her argument, one has committed an ad hominem fallacy.


The irony is that somebody made a bogus claim, I called them out, and now I am getting bullied. I don't cotton to bullies, on the internet and more importantly, in real life.

[cui bono]

168. LOL!

.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. Please see Post 137.

Thank you in advance.





P.S. if you are looking for an internet piñata I respecftully submit you move along. That's not how DemocratSinceBirth rolls.

[A Simple Game]

171. Add in the 0.2% she beat Bernie by in Iowa and she is still losing.

But gee losing by 0.8 tenths of a point ain't bad is it? Wait what do you call someone that loses by 0.8 tenths of a point???

[erpowers]

257. Margin of Error

What is the margin of error in the poll? If the margin of error is 3% than she is in a tie with Cruz. Also, how many of the people who were questioned for the poll know Ted Cruz's stances. Polls are not the most reliable way to judge an election. Anyone can make any poll say what they want the poll to say.

[Perogie]

210. What's more important are the trend lines

Hillary's goes down and Cruz goes up. That's bad news.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

232. She said Hillary loses badly...She doesn't . It is what it is...

[Perogie]

237. Just pointing out trend lines.

[maddiemom]

117. I doubt any Democratic candidate will lose BADLY to Cruz.

Listening to and looking at him for several months will be ever more off-putting to anyone other than his very wealthy and/or blindly "evangelical" fan base. Either that, or he'll have to do some very fancy bobbing and weaving to win other rational voters. Hopefully it won't ever come to that. Having just become old enough to vote against him in 1968, and really hating Richard Nixon, I'd give Tricky Dick a huge hug and all my support if he were running against Ted Cruz.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

54. I hope that's not the case, because the OP is correct.

If the OP is correct, and if you're correct, and leaves us with Ted Cruz as President. Let's hope your prediction is off.

[amborin]

170. nope; she would lose big to either

[rhett o rick]

201. That will only be true if Goldman-Sachs' money speaks louder than The People.

I would hope all Democrats would choose helping people over helping Goldman-Sachs.

[Waiting For Everyman]

15. 100% agree and I've said it too going back a year ago.

She will never be President.

Too. Many. People. Hate. Her.

But I completely agree, your analysis is spot on. The Repub candidate is going to win the South. We all know this.

[Helen Borg]

20. Polls speak clearly!

She is hated.

[MissDeeds]

40. Unfortunately, that's true

and many within the Democratic Party don't like her, don't trust her, and won't vote for her, regardless of how much her supporters try to encourage them to do so.

Hillary has too much baggage and there are too many scandals and rumors of scandals. Her candidacy in the GE would be mired down in deflecting those concerns. Nominating her would be a failed strategy for winning the WH.

[Nedsdag]

296. She has more baggage than LAX

Plus she won't win swing states like Ohio and Florida.

[californiabernin]

16. if she wins the nomination, republicans will have already won.

Every objective analysis as well as polling data reflects that harsh reality

[abelenkpe]

59. +1000 nt

[roguevalley]

84. she can't attack Trump on money because she took bribes too. She can't attack him on a lot

of issues because she is equally guilty. What kind of campaign is left? I'm not as evil as him?

[abelenkpe]

126. "We're not as bad as the other guy"

Wasn't that the strategy used during the mid terms? Not very exciting.

[A Simple Game]

173. I think some went with "I'm a better Republican than the Republican", that didn't work either. n/t

[amborin]

262. +100000

[Nedsdag]

297. When a Republican runs against Republican Light, everyone knows who will win there.

See the 2014 midterm elections.

[Cleita]

18. You are right. If she becomes the Democratic candidate she will

lose to whoever the Republican is. The fact that seems to be emerging is that many who will vote for Bernie, will not vote for Hillary and will vote for the Republican candidate or a third party candidate or not vote at all. My casual conversations with people about the election seem to be pointing in that direction.

I wish those who can will do focus groups or polling about this among Bernie supporters to get some empirical evidence of this before the primaries heat up. The DNC needs to look harder at this, yet I find they are not looking at things realistically.

[Autumn Colors]

28. I'm one of those people

I will not vote for her. I'll either write Bernie's name in or vote Green Party. (I'm in Connecticut, which goes blue anyway.)

Also, I'm in my mid-50s, female, and have voted straight-ticket Democratic Party every election since I turned 18 (just in case you want my demographics).

I will NOT vote for her.

[MissDeeds]

46. Same here

I won't vote against my conscience, and like you, I've been a Democrat all my life.

[classykaren]

166. & 3 in my house will not vote for her either

[truegrit44]

178. Count 2 more me and my husband...........

he actually said the more hears her the more he hates her and would actually vote for Trump before her! I'm not that intense about it, but I just won't vote.

[Autumn Colors]

181. You could vote green or write in Bernie's name (nt)

[Optimism]

206. Dang ...

I'm a male, but other than that I could have written your post word for word! Lifelong Dem ... helped work for McGovern when I was just 12(!) ... got to see the great Jimmy Carter up close at a yuuuuuge L.A. rally the very day before he was elected ... enthusiastically caucused for Obama in '08 and even flew across country to be a dot in that yuuuuuuge inauguration crowd. Sadly, because of many of his policies and cabinet, I ended up voting (in my solid Blue state) for Dr. Jill Stein last time. I WANT a female President ... I just want her to be Elizabeth Warren! Oh how very happy I'd be if Bernie picks her for VP. But make no mistake, I'm all about the policies. Bernie's are just want I want. His values match mine. And I'm far from alone ... there's a real yearning afoot in the country to go where Bernie wants to take us. If this becomes a wave election as I'm feeling it could, the Congress could be ours as well. I dunno, am I being too optimistic ?!

[Lizzie Poppet]

259. Nor will I (but it won't matter in my state).

Oregon's not going to go with the GOP nominee, regardless...so I can vote my conscience w/o regret. Hillary is unacceptable. I insist on an actual liberal.

[Carolina]

306. I'm one of those people, too

and in my sixties. Always voted for the Democratic ticket, but I can no longer vote for the not-so-lesser-of -two-evils. Living in a red state now, it won't matter; but it's important to rebuild the real Democrat Party and wrest it from 3rd way DINO corporatists.

[Buzz cook]

313. The republican party thanks you in advance. nt

nt

[chwaliszewski]

184. Same Here

I cannot, in good conscience, vote for her or any Republican. I will write in Bernie's name on the ballot. It's more important to me to know that I voted for the candidate I wanted instead of the lesser of two evils. To me, that's a wasted vote.

[redruddyred]

186. i'm not ready to go that route just yet

but i'm meeting these people too; i agree the DNC is irresponsibly not taking the temperature of voters in this country.

[Binkie The Clown]

207. How many Deaniacs do you know who redirected all that energy and enthusiasm to Kerry?

As I recall, when Dean got shot down, the massive energy of the Deaniacs just dissipated like smoke in the wind. Wherever it when, it didn't propel Kerry to victory.

[Cleita]

208. I was one of them. I still remember the disappointment.

On edit: I should add to this. I went on and canvassed for Kerry. My heart wasn't in it, but I carried on. Many of the people I canvassed had been Deaniacs and expressed their disappointment, but promised to forge ahead and vote for Kerry. Somehow, I don't think Kerry's heart was in it for him to give up so easily.

I know, I will probably hold my nose and vote for the Democrat, however, I will not work for nor contribute to anyone other than Bernie.

[Binkie The Clown]

215. I was a Deaniac, and it was a fellow Deniac who brought me to DU.

After that disappointing election I wandered away from politics, forgot my original DU username and password, and didn't post here for many years, until I created a new account a while back.

I hate to say it, but I don't know if I have the energy to go through another round of settling for second best. I'm 70 and right now it's Bernie or bust for me. Then I'm going to retire from politics and give my blood pressure a rest.

[eridani]

214. Had Kerry voted against the Ireq war, he would have won

Had Clinton voted against the Iraq war, she'd be in her last year of office.

[quaker bill]

230. my wife volunteered full time

and I worked for him part time. There was never a chance that we would be able to drag him across the finish line. He was the wrong choice for that time.

[Autumn Colors]

278. Yup, that's me

Former Deaniac here.

[MohRokTah]

21. .

[seaotter]

33. I hope you see fit to use just as many emoji while you support Bernie this fall.

[MohRokTah]

37. .

[seaotter]

41. You should talk to a doctor about those coughing fits, could be serious.

[libdem4life]

104. I was wondering how he computes how many of those thingys is enough? I mean, does he count.

does he wait until the spirit moves, does a cloud pass by? It's clear the intelligent conversation has gone missing. Just curious about why people do some of the weird things they do.

[LiberalLovinLug]

122. Brilliant as usual

[frylock]

53. The kind of insightful analysis we've all come to expect.

[MohRokTah]

56. .`

[WillyT]

22. K & R !!!

[Betty Karlson]

23. K&R for truth!

[cantbeserious]

24. IMHO - A Vote For HRC In The Primary Is A Vote For Trump In The General Election

eom

[Loudestlib]

25. In addtion to your points.

We win when democratic voter turn out is high. Young people won't turn out to vote for Hillary but Republicans will. Republicans love to vote against something and Hillary will drive them to the polls.

[Amimnoch]

26. So, I'm curious.

Just a few months ago, when all of the polls showed the complete opposite, you did such a great job of driving that point home then as well I'm sure.

I'm just having a hell of a time finding that evidence.

[Dawgs]

32. The polls are the last reason she will never be President

Trust, disapprovals, and history are better reasons.

[Amimnoch]

60. Interesting thing "Trust"

Many threads here where people who've actually worked for Clinton, and those that know her support her, and it's presented as a "Bad" thing.

Yet, after all those decades as a Representative and a Senator, Sanders can't even pull endorsements from his own coworkers of all that time.

IE.. The ones that KNOW Clinton support her. The that KNOW Sanders support Clinton.

[roguevalley]

86. bernie doesn't get endorsements because they know he'll cut the gravy train off and in this

election year, endorsements from the problem people are part of the problem. Endorsements from politicians who ARE the problem are worthless. Also, polls that don't have cell phone input are also worthless.

[Amimnoch]

107. Interesting hypothesis. Let's run with that for a second.

I'm a believer in giving the benefit of doubt.

So, let's assume you are completely correct here. ALL of these Senators and Representatives are in it only for the money, and that is why they are supporting Hillary.

The 39 Senators supporting Hillary, and 0 supporting Bernie..
The 194 Representatives supporting Hillary, The 3 supporting Bernie..

Alllll the ones for Hillary are in it for the money.

Do tell, if that is the case, and Sanders has worked with these people for decades, is he ignorant of the fact that they are all about the $$?? I'd surmise that to be very unlikely.

So, If they are in it for the money, and Sanders knows that, then Sanders MUST know that he is NEVER going to get his agenda passed, and is making false campaign promises that he knows he can't keep.

I'd say that whole trust argument just went out the window if you are right and all these endorsements for Hillary are really just about the money.

Sorry to burst that bubble, but either they support Hillary because they think she's the better choice which means she really IS the better choice.

OR

They support Hillary for the money and Bernie is a big ole liar, and making promises he'd have to know he can't keep..

OR (most unlikely)

Bernie is completely ignorant on how the US government works, doesn't know how congress works. Really believes that, despite his own co-workers shunning him, he can actually make those campaign promises come true.


Ahhh, I'm afraid that none of those options make him at all appealing for my own vote.

Do you perhaps have an example roll call vote on the 115th congress that might prove me wrong? I'd actually like to be feeling the bern with you. I just can't get past the BS to feel it.

[roguevalley]

118. I don't care about changing your mind. The people are pissed at the establishment and that means

the politicians that recycle themselves over and over while we get the bill. As for your assumptions that he's ignorant about how things work, that is highly laughable. He's been a mayor and in congress for 33 years. I would think he knows a helluva lot. You might google it.

The endorsements come from the establishment circling the wagons because the gravy train is going to end when Bernie wins. As for the rest of your remarks I will wait for tomorrow night when he shellacks her backside in Nevada and moves onward. Given that she said that 80% of Nevadans are white, I don't have great hopes for her. If there is any BS here, its not coming from him or me.

[Amimnoch]

121. You don't care?

You don't care if your candidate is being a typical politician and lying through his teeth.. making false promises.. offering false hope? All while using a party he's been disdainful of?

You don't think he's ignorant of government? I agree (and said as much in my post), it's the most unlikely of the 3 possibilities given his background. I like laying out all possibilities for consideration though.

Do you have an alternate possibility?

Is there a possibility of the 115th congress making his campaign promises a reality? If so, I am all ears.

[redruddyred]

188. thanks for offering a substantive counterpoint here

The Point of the sanders campaign is provide a leftwing counterbalance to the tea party. it's about telling folks the truth about Walmart and Goldman Sachs. it's about helping apathetic voters see the big picture, and become engaged.

no one really believes that sanders can get all these things done, but we believe that, given the opportunity, he would. with hillary on the other hand we are not so sure.

i like sanders' ideas of playing hardball with mitch mcconnell. that's what we need right now. the name of the game is theater: i respect obama's coolheaded approach but see where that's got him.

[NastyRiffraff]

142. I wish I could K&R this post!

Brilliant analysis, Amimnoch!

[MADem]

255. OUCH-well argued! nt

[Enthusiast]

109. Yooge plus one!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

125. And in aggregate?

Your points may be good, but there's a bottom line, of sorts. Check the polling to see who trust whom, and you'll see what I mean.

[Amimnoch]

139. In aggregate? Fair enough, paint me the whole picture.

I am open to seeing the light. I am onboard for seeing Bernie's plan come to life.

Where is the Senate and house that will make this happen?

Agreed that the Republicans are NOT going to be onboard with his plan?

He's laid out his plan, yet the Democrats that are in office have soundly rejected him endorsement wise.

In this 2016 election cycle, who are the Senators and Representatives HE endorses to get into office to make his plans happen??

Where is the revolution push to get those people who he needs to make his plan happen elected?

Are we not the people of intellect and reason? Isn't hyperbole, obfuscation, and pandering to the baser instincts rather than logic and reason supposed to be the tools or Republicans and teabaggers??

Teabaggers are not as smart as liberals and progressives.. of that I 100% believe in! But this Bernie revolution.. It's backwards! Teabag politics is bass ackwards, but their approach was the one thing about their movement that they did right. They didn't go after the presidency. The fielded Teabagger challenges to incumbent Representatives that didn't align with their agenda, they fielded teabagger challenges to incumbent Senators that didn't align with their agenda. For all of the dumbasses in their masses, the one thing they did very successfully was move the Congress far to the right.

THAT's what we need to do if we want the changes Bernie proposes. Making him President without expanding this movement is setting that man up for severe failure.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

141. I was kind of limiting my comments to the question of what the public thinks about the

...trustworthiness of candidates. Sorry, I should've communicated that more clearly.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

211. Unless she plans to meet every potential voter, your statement is really bad news for Clinton.

If people who know her like her, but people who don't know her don't like or trust her, it seems to me that she'd better get busy meeting every American over the age of 18 in a real hurry.

[SheenaR]

79. The word poll

does not appear in my post.

Thus this has nothing to do with polls then or polls now.

It has to do with her. Evidence is everywhere on that.

[tk2kewl]

156. time as experienced by humans only passes into the future

the trajectory of Hillary's poll numbers is in the wrong direction and not likely to be reversible

[vdogg]

27. Bookmarking

This'll be fun to read in November.

[roguevalley]

87. exactly, vdogg. :D

[joshcryer]

164. I've bookmarked dozens and dozens of "Trump is a winner" posts.

[TCJ70]

344. Is it fun to read now? N/t

[Autumn Colors]

30. Here's something Hillary EXCELS at!!!

One of Hillary's best talents is GOTV for the Republican Party.

[tk2kewl]

34. the right wing haters hate Hillary as least as much as Obama

they will be very motivated to vote against her

[NastyRiffraff]

145. The right wing haters will not vote

for any Democrat, Bernie included.

[tk2kewl]

148. question is how many will get out to vote

[closeupready]

35. I'm not voting for her, I'll say that.

Voters have to do what they have to do. Maybe she will win, who knows. I'm starting to feel like I need to pull away - not just from DU, but from politics.

K&R

[PatrickforO]

36. I agree with you and fully expect Clinton to be indicted for criminal

behavior around weapons sales to countries that donated to the Clinton Foundation. I also believe that Republicans in the State Department are waiting until she gets the nomination so the indictment can be a nice October surprise.

[Merryland]

64. You could be right.

It's pretty amazing how some on this board downplay these very real investigations into very serious issues.

[CharlotteVale]

39. K&R

[Bigredhunk]

43. I like both of our cadidates

Last edited Sat Feb 20, 2016, 12:54 AM - Edit history (1)

People throwing shit at Bernie or Hillary on this site makes me want to puke. Save it for the republicans.

1) I believe either of our candidates will win.

2) Let's say Hillary is hated. She's been dumped on for 30 years, so I'm not surprised. She's supposed to be hated, given the treatment. But if she is hated, strange that she was recently voted most admired woman in the world for the 20th time. Are both things true?

3) Bernie doesn't have Hillary's negatives. Does it remain that way if he's the Democratic candidate for president in the fall? Or once he becomes the candidate, do all of the bullshit communist commercials and talking points from faux and talk radio bring his #'s down (and drive his negatives up)? The bullshit socialist stuff worked against President Obama (at least it worked on the crowd for whom it was intended to work). Bernie's never been the guy out front. You get treated differently in that position.

4) Given #3 I'm not sure how much I trust polling for November right now.

5) I want Cruz to be their nominee. I don't see any scenario under which lots of people would vote for him. Nobody likes him. He's creepy looking/acting. I think either of our candidates would mop the floor with him. Trump scares me more b/c I could see the dumbasses I run into various places (bars, restaurants) -- people who don't care about voting/aren't interested in politics -- turning out to vote for him b/c "America will be great" and "China will pay for a wall to keep Mexicans out" and "We're going to win" and "We're the best." "This program will be the best and that idea will be the best." Morons voting for things they don't understand, believing things that are complete bullshit - that scares me. Cruz doesn't rally anybody but the jesus freaks.

[maddiemom]

123. Very well argued.

I only disagree in that Trump scares me LESS than Cruz. Cruz has been too blatantly hungry from the moment he won national office (the general public didn't know him before). He obviously believes he's God's gift to the world, whether or not he's really such a true believer (either he really is, and believes he's the New Messiah, or he's running a great scam on the evangelicals). I don't know which is worse, but both are scary. Trump seems to just want to further massage his ego by proving he COULD win the nomination. If he also wants to prove he could be elected; worse case scenario: he'd hire some excellent managers who aren't as fascist as he's presenting himself, and kick back to enjoy the ultimate ego trip.

[Bigredhunk]

165. Yup

Cruz scares me more as a president. I just don't think he'll ever be president. Trump scares me more as a candidate. I think he has more "dumbass" (or "bubba&quot appeal. I see more people coming out to vote if he's their candidate.

[SheenaR]

189. We would beat Cruz

I hope it's him

[zappaman]

45. Oh

[randome]

70. Shirley has spoken!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[msanthrope]

187. Don't call me Shirley...

https://m.

#

[MissDeeds]

47. Excellent post, SheenaR

K&R

[Duval]

49. I agree. It's unfortunate that she has brought this on herself.

[Proud Public Servant]

65. Would that be the same Nate Silver who,

as recently as six weeks ago, was giving Trump no chance to be the GOP nominee?

Silver's smart, but it remains to be seen whether his model works with this decidedly unusual election season.

[AzDar]

51. Truth bomb... Incoming!!

[Agschmid]

55. At this point I agree on one thing...

I doubt she will be the nominee, but that's about all we agree on coming out of this.

[hamsterjill]

58. Thank you for your opinion.

I'll not attack it. You have every right to form your own opinion.

I have every right to disagree, which I do.

If more people on DU could simply leave things at that (i.e., "we disagree&quot rather than having to fight it out to the death, DU would be a more stimulating and enlightened place. Only time will tell who the nominee will be and who the ultimate next President will be. There is much time between today and that decision and many things can change and happen.

It's not a bad thing for there to be disagreement. It fosters discussion and creates new ideas and agendas.

[Bok_Tukalo]

63. Trump will not win the Republican nomination

I don't know who will, but it won't be him. He has a 35% ceiling in the Republican primary of Democrats who hate nothing more than Democrats.

[cali]

66. Agreed

[ccinamon]

67. Excellent analysis....

well reasoned and with facts!

[Chalco]

69. But, when she wins will you support her?

I will.

[azurnoir]

71. as I've been saying she might win the battle but she'll lose us the war

[jomin41]

72. Hillary is too risky for the GE

She has a knapsack of baggage and if just one of them turns out to be a stink-bomb, we are SUNK, if it is against Trump, imho, but Bernie, on the other hand, looks like the proverbial white knight on a charger, IN COMPARISON to ALL other candidates and has a history of honesty and integrity that will make it difficult for the "enemy" to find much to get any purchase on. He's the real deal. Bernie will beat Cruz. Cruz might beat HRC. I don't want to take the chance. Why should I?

[George II]

73. We need a "yawn" smilie!

[Arizona Roadrunner]

76. Credibility counts!

Clinton has little if any credibility. First of all she and her husband come from the New Democrats which aligned themselves with corporate America, NAFTA, Welfare "reform", Loss of regulations of Wall Street etc. are just a few of their "errors".

Secondly, look at her positions on TPP. First of all she was for it, now she is "currently" not in favor of it. The US Chamber of Commerce has told their members not to worry, she will be "currently" in favor of it after the election.

Thirdly, you are right, if Trump is the nominee, since he is self funded essentially, he will go after her speeches and amount received, decisions she made at the State Dept. and then subsequent donars of beneficiaries of those decisions to the Clinton foundation etc.

The worst part if she is the nominee, the down ticket will lose big time because more people are independent of mind even if a party member and therefore they will not vote. As one person told me, "why do I want to vote for Wall Street light and for a person I can't trust"? "Fall in love with candidates during primaries and fall in line during the general election" won't work this time around.

[Depaysement]

78. I actually thought the opposite until yesterday

I thought she would be elected President. It's what the TPTB want. Certain members of the Oligarchy would be able to call themselves "progressive" while continuing to conduct a class war against the rest of citizens of the country.

Then again her latest faux pas at the Town Hall really makes me wonder if she is just going to blow it. She told Wall Street to cut it out? Please. That's a lie of monumental proportions or secretly true, making her complicit, as TheProgressive so eloquently stated in a recent OP.

[tokenlib]

192. Your third sentence is the absolute truth about the Third Way/ New Democrats..

The Oligarchy can call themselves progressive while robbing the masses blind..I like it.

[Depaysement]

228. Thanks!

It's rampant where I live, so it is an easy observation for me to make.

[blue neen]

82. I believe that you have violated the TOS.

FWIW.

[IdaBriggs]

88. I am curious. How? nt

[blue neen]

91. I believe it falls under depressing or undermining turnout for Democratic candidates.

IMHO.

[SheenaR]

95. As much as I may have an ego

I do not have an effect on voter turnout

This in no way would keep someone from voting.

[blue neen]

110. There are a number of posters in this thread

who took the opportunity of your OP to say that they will not vote for Hillary Clinton, no matter what.

No matter what...and that is in response to your OP. That's a pretty divisive statement for someone to make--that they would not support a possible Democratic party's nominee, IF that comes to pass. So, it is a mystery how any of this could be construed as helping to elect Democrats, which is the stated purpose of this board.

You said what you wanted to say and had your opinion. I courteously stated mine. Thank you for your time and good luck.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

124. The OP gave analysis. The OP is not responsible for the words of others. It's just that simple.

[Autumn Colors]

314. The OP did NOT influence me in this decision

It was already made beforehand.

I do know that if what I stated comes to pass, that I will then not be welcome on DU between the convention and election day and will have to go elsewhere to support my candidate.

Until then, I'm merely supporting my chosen candidate in the primaries.

[IdaBriggs]

102. I repeat: How?

I see Democrats as being a reality based party. This means we have to discuss "reality versus fantasy versus wishes". This post, in my mind, does those things.

The reality is that certain electoral votes *always* can be counted on to go red or blue regardless of demographic makeup. We also have purple states that are contestable. Obvious the goal is to campaign/win in the entire country, but at the end of the day, the one with the most electoral votes becomes President.

Math is reality based. The post looks at math, and the analysis is that one candidates strongest supports (assuming people of color will turn out in higher numbers than other demographics) will be overridden because they are in traditional red states is kind of a big deal.

A candidate for President has to appeal to a wide range of the voting demographic, including the other side, in order to get that majority. Each candidate has strengths AND WEAKNESSES and this is the time for a candid discussion about those as we "interview" them for this very prestigious position.

Primary passions are an important part of this process, but in my opinion discussing electoral math based on data from polls as well as news reports and debates is not a "voter suppression technique" and therefore does not violate TOS.

If I am wrong, the admins will tombstone. I personally would be disappointed in them for doing so because I think reality based discussions are important.

Full Disclosure: I am currently a Bernie supporter, but have concerns about several issues with him regarding his age/health (making his Vice President pick something I will watch closely), as well as his ability to arm wrestle key legislation through a divided Congress when he was an Independent during his career there. (I liked Obama's Chicago political background - lol!)

I also agree with the fact that both of our candidates have been very easy on each other (Photogate and some slurs thus far notwithstanding - it shows how candidates handle pressure, confrontation and even smears/lies which I am confident won't stop EVER), and believe that the Republican shit storm will be fully unleashed at our candidate when the poo party they have been hosting finally ends and a stinky winner finally emerges from their circus tent.

[blue neen]

111. Thank you for your well-thought and well-explained post, Ida.

There's not enough of that on DU anymore.

I definitely agree with a lot of what you have to say. If you'll catch post #110, there's an explanation of my opinion on this particular OP.

Thanks again.

[californiabernin]

127. Bullshit. We need to have this discussion.

Discussing the strengths and weaknesses of a potential nominee in the GE is critical.

I agree with the op. Those who think she would be the stronger GE candidate have no objective data to back up that assertion.

Those who argue the opposite DO have objective data (see most recent GE polling data). Some potential Trump voters will end up voting for Sanders, and it is a fact Sanders pulls in more independent voters. The enthusiasm gap is also indisputable fact.

[MissDeeds]

174. You're right, we do need to have this discussion

and we need to have it now.

[Odin2005]

157. And here, folks, is an example of Hillarians trying to silence their critics.

[Jester Messiah]

238. Nothing new there. "You can't say that! Moooooommmm!!!!" [nt]

[Nedsdag]

298. Be careful, my friend!

I was reprimanded for calling her supporters names.

small voice: I agree with you!

[Carolina]

307. Exactly, it's rather reminiscent of W and his repukes

with their free speech zones and marginalization of protestors

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

83. I certainly hope you're right.

[beaglelover]

89. BS, this is all your opinion only. Hillary WILL be the next POTUS. Bet on it.

[californiabernin]

133. Data?

Any objective data to show she would be the stronger GE candidate?

[logosoco]

93. I have not been bashing Clinton, even though I am behind Bernie in the primary

but I am almost 100% sure, in my neck of the woods, with a lot of rednecks (we went Obama in 08 but not in 12), Hillary will not win here. Bernie I think has a very good chance.

Anecdotal, yes, but that is how I see the community where I am.

[Fast Walker 52]

242. I'm in Indiana and it's similar

A lot of people just don't like Hillary.

[Zorro]

94. Another day, another Berniac newbie prognosticating about Hillary's unelectability

What a surprise.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. Despite all that she is a 10/11 favorite at the offshore betting sites and the VT independent is a

Despite all that she is a 10/11 favorite at the offshore betting sites and the VT independent is a 7-1 underdog


http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2016/winner


If you bet on Hillary you have to put up $1,100 to win $1,000.00

If you bet on Bernie you have to put up $145.00 to win $1,000.00.


Let that sink in...

The peer reviewed research search predictions markets are the second best indicators of electoral success:


https://forecasters.org/wp-content/uploads/gravity_forms/7-2a51b93047891f1ec3608bdbd77ca58d/2013/07/Graefe_vote_expectations_ISF.pdf


The best indicator of electoral success is simply asking voters who they think win.


I am not going to do other people's research but when pollsters ask voters who they think will win the presidency in 2016 pluralities and majorities say Hillary will...

If I am prevaricating I am sure someone will provide the data to support such a claim.

[FlatBaroque]

97. Most pleasant thread title EVER /