2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThat thing you do isn't working to convince black voters not to vote for Hillary
In the film, "That Thing You Do," a young 1960s band is trying to come up with a name. The lead singer, Jimmy wants to call themselves the "ONEders" - pronounced "wonders." "You know, like the BEATles." Jimmy writes it out on a piece of paper and shows it to his bandmate Lenny.
Lenny takes one look at it and says, "It looks like the oh-needers."
Jimmy shakes his head and says, "NO. It's the ONE-ders" and holds up one finger.
Lenny says, "I know. But it looks like the oh-needers."
Jimmy gets exasperated and says, "No! It's ONE-ders!"
and Lenny tells him again, "I know. It looks like the oh-needers."
And, of course, until they change their name to the Wonders halfway through the movie, they keep getting introduced as "The OH-needers."
The Bernie supporters who keep telling black voters over and over and over how awful Hillary Clinton is to and for African Americans remind me of Jimmy:
Majority of Black Voters: We're going to vote for Hillary.
Certain Sanders Supporters: How can you vote for Clinton?! She's AWFUL for black people!
MBV: We don't think she's bad for us. We like her and we''re going to vote for her.
CSS: How CAN you?! Didn't you know that Hillary Clinton SUPPORTED THE CRIME BILL?!
MBV: Yes, we know all about that. But we've decided to vote for her anyway.
CSS: Are you CRAZY?! Didn't you know that Bernie MARCHED WITH DR. KING?!
MBV: Yes, you told.us that. Several times. We're still voting for Hillary.
CSS: What is WRONG with you?! Didn't you know that Bernie was ARRESTED while protesting segregation?!
MBV: That's nice. But you already told us that, too. Still voting for Hillary.
CSS: We don't GET it! Why are you voting for HER? Don't you know that Hillary is REALLY REALLY BAD for black people?!
MBV: You told us that. Still voting for her.
CSS: But Bernie MARCHED FOR CIVIL RIGHTS!!!
MBV: Yes, we know. Still voting for Hillary.
CSS: What is WITH you?! OK, OK, here's something. MICHELLE ALEXANDER says Hillary's bad for black people and no way should they vote for her! And she's BLACK!!!
MBV: Whatever.. (shaking collective heads and walking away).
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Don't even get me started on my conservative family members voting against their economic self interests...
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)The part where you tell your conservative family members that they are voting against their self interests? Are you persuading many to your far superior opinions?
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)This despite being pro-iife and anti- gay marriage (actually I have made some progress on both of these fronts in the past few years, but it's slow going here)
I am still working on my dad, but he is more stubborn.
Actually I was able to convince my mom based not on economic self-interest, but on criminal justice and anti-corruption.
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)You make more progress by appealing to shared values than you do by hectoring people about their economic interests... So try that next time you want to persuade black people to vote for your guy. Or anyone, actually....
Also not sure how bringing people to the party who are anti-gay and anti-choice are going to make the party MORE liberal. That is a head scratcher. I am always glad for the votes, don't get me wrong. But I am also pragmatic, or as Sanders supporters like to phrase it "a corrupt DLC third-wayer"
Will she vote for the Dem nominee in the GE, regardless of who wins?
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)I am reasonably confident that by June he will end up voting for Bernie. These things take time. Your concern for my strategy is noted, and will be given due consideration.
I haven't been hectoring anyone, but a spirited disagreement is often productive, at least that is how I was raised.
I haven't convinced my mom to be pro-gay but I have convinced her that it isn't the government's role to legislate morality, so two people who love each other can freely marry and receive the associated benefits. Especially since we allow divorce in this fine country, we're quite far from any kind of traditional marriage.
As for choice, that's a clear disagreement. I managed to tell her at least that a signature Supreme Court case probably isn't going to get overturned by a conservative court (of course, restrictions for abortions and clinics may be, but as I disagree with her I didn't want to belabor this point ). You take the good with the bad. And when it comes to the following issues:
military interventionism,
Private Prisons,
Marijuana,
Mandatory Minimums,
prosecution of Wall St. crime / campaign finance donations and special interests lobbying by the industry
edit: fracking
I sent her investigative pieces on the candidates' positions and I was able to find enough to convince her that these outweighed the question of choice. For Hillary, there is little to agree on and no reason to trust a damn thing she says. This is what they tell me.
As for the general election, I can assure you that neither of my parents will vote for Hillary (probably 3rd party). They've always been independents. When people talk about independents not backing Hillary in a general election, I think my parents might be what is discussed.
They don't live on DU, there are no purity tests for candidates they do not trust and disagree with.
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)things than any GOP candidate. She may not be your first round pick, but she does play for the same team.
You are using a good line of logic on the gay marriage issue. That one works even with highly religious voters here in the south.
I have seen you hector black posters on their views here (not recently, but I don't read the entire site either). I came back into posting on a thread where that was happening. You were no where near the worst of the lot, but you were very active. I remember that particular thread because I was very surprised and angry by much of what I read that day.
It may seem to you like it is "spirited debate", but I assure you, it is not seen as such by the other parties involved. It is also not a persuasive line of argument or beneficial to your candidate. But I guess I said that back then too.... I am not saying this to be mean or partisan. Just mentioning it because it seems like you really are trying to campaign well on other issues. YMMV.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)Keep in mind I vigorously disagree with all Hillary supporters on this site , not just the black ones.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)You insulted me (one of "those" Bernie supporters) but it didn't feel like it. It even made me chuckle. You hardly strike me as someone who's wildeyed.
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)I should have said "SOME Sanders supporters like to phrase it". #notALLsanderssupporters But seriously, that was an oversight. Clearly not all Sanders supporters call me those things. Some of my best friends are Sanders supporters, both in the real world AND on this site
I came here during the 2004 Presidential election. GOP ran attack ads against Kerry and the "wildeyed" Democrats who endorsed him, so that is where that came from. I want to change it to LOLigarch for the duration of the primary, but no legal way to do that.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)hence my moniker. I won't get into it, but when Obama brought in the Rubinites my hope for change got dashed. Now y'all are driving me crazy with your misguided allegiance to Hillary There's not been one day I've waken and not said aloud, What The Hell is going on around here. I'm a wildeyed Bernie REALIST. Yes, I exist! People are hung up on "pie-in-the-sky." Anything Obama wants is pie-in-the-sky. Republicans revile Hillary but she is certain she can do what Obama can't: get things done. That's "pie-in-the-sky." Bernie is being honest: nothing will get done unless you get rid of these obstructionist clowns and create a movement like the civil rights or gay rights or women's rights. I see the Democratic process has failed: while we were fighting for human rights, they were taking away our economic power. Money is power, as LOLigarchy suggests. We won many battles but didn't realize we were losing the war. We now have New Jim Crow Laws, and new ways to control women. Why? Because we didn't know economic power was the prize. Without economic power, the others aren't long lasting. This is what drives me nuts about SC. To a person they'll tell you the recovery is only a rumor, they haven't seen a change. They argue that economic equality and racial equality are mutually exclusive. They want change but vote for the status quo. We've devolved into nothing more than an uninspiring "lesser of two evils" process, now.
If you have had the misfortune of reading my posts, I'm earnestly destroying Hillary lol But the realist in me says I'll be proud to have voted for the first woman POTUS come November. I think that's a really terrible consolation prize.
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)We have those, at least in NC, because Dems did not turn to vote in 2010 and we got redistricted. Change the redistricting laws, we will change the outcomes.
Women have more restrictions on their reproductive rights because they have been very smart about chipping away on the local level and because their activists fight harder than ours.
No single politician will make much of a difference in either of those fights. It is about turning our voters out at EVERY election, not just one in four, and fighting the good fight in the courts for both of those....
I worked with a coalition that got some of the most liberal campaign finance and ballot access laws in the country passed in a southern state with a bunch of VERY conservative Dems in charge. As a result, I no longer believe that politicians are really that important. As long as they are a Dem and willing to work with activists, I then we can get a shit ton of really good laws passed. IF the activists step up and do the work.
You are right that the GOP will fight us tooth and nail. But they will do that regardless of who wins. Clinton is a better fighter, IMO. She has proved that she can take a punch and get back up to fight again. Sanders, not so much.....
And he is basically an activist, not a true politician anyway. He is good at pointing out the problems, not so good at fixing them.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,070 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Sadly, neither of them can run. They would make good Presidents.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)best interests and that the candidate they back is wrong on X,Y,Z issues or conversely is a liar.
This idea that we can't discuss why one politician is better than another for the AA community (as we do for the Latino/LGBT/military/impoverished communities) is insulting and subtly racist.
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)Who is best qualified to determine criteria for our own communities?
And whose job is it to gather those votes. And whose fault is it if he or she fails to gather the necessary votes to win any sort of election?
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)It is about making persuasive arguments to convince others to see things from your perspective and ultimately further the same goals through the backing of the same (or similar candidates). So I don't know who is best qualified to make those decisions, but that's not really the point. All I can do is advocate for my values and my candidate, irrespective of race, sex, creed etc.
As for "fault" in not gathering the necessary votes to win, I side with Jon Stewart on the meaning of the outcome of a primary race, and don't read any more into it than that.
CARLSON: Is John Kerry -- is John Kerry really the best? I mean, John Kerry has...
(CROSSTALK)
STEWART: Is he the best? I thought Lincoln was good.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Is he the best the Democrats can do?
STEWART: Is he the best the Democrats can do?
CARLSON: Yes, this year of the whole field.
STEWART: I had always thought, in a democracy -- and, again, I don't know -- I've only lived in this country -- that there's a process. They call them primaries.
CARLSON: Right.
STEWART: And they don't always go with the best, but they go with whoever won. So is he the best? According to the process.
CARLSON: Right. But of the nine guys running, who do you think was best. Do you think he was the best, the most impressive?
STEWART: The most impressive?
CARLSON: Yes.
STEWART: I thought Al Sharpton was very impressive.
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: I enjoyed his way of speaking.
I think, oftentimes, the person that knows they can't win is allowed to speak the most freely, because, otherwise, shows with titles, such as CROSSFIRE.
BEGALA: CROSSFIRE.
STEWART: Or "HARDBALL" or "I'm Going to Kick Your Ass" or...
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Will jump on it.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0410/15/cf.01.html
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)using persuasive argument is what you are supposed to do.
I'm seeing some extremely ugly racist scapegoating going on right now.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)BainsBane
(53,001 posts)That is precisely what this OP and others have been saying for months now. Rather than acknowleging they know what persuades them, we have people claiming that the fact they even speak out it is about making white people feel bad, as though no one else mattered. They are point blank saying what has been going on here makes them feel bad, but you all keep repeating it. Clearly the point is not to persuade. If it were, you would pay attention to what the few AAs here reading the stuff have to say on the subject.
The effect has been to turn one person after another off Sanders, yet people persist. That tells me it has absolutely nothing to do with persuasion. There is something else going on.
That isn't to say Sanders doesn't have black supporters. Of course he does, but I would wager that those supporters on DU do so in spite of such efforts at "persuasion" rather than because of them.
The white people feeling bad remark gets at the heart of what I believe this election is about.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)Because the stats show that, ultimately, the arguments of Sander not only "seem to be persuasive" they ARE persuasive.
Even with a media blackout on Sander's message - the word is getting out and his numbers are steadily climbing. So the Hillary Campaign is racing to create a series of narratives designed to create a bandwagon effect. Sadly for her camp, those mindless memes crumble almost as fast as their press minions can promulgate them. And this one you are helping to promote, along with the 'Super Tuesday Ends It' fairy tale are going to meet the same fate as the 'Sander's isn't a serious candidate' and the 'Nevada Firewall' false memes met.
Sander's won't "win" Super Tuesday, and he might not win the primary; after all, the antidemocratic forces arrayed against him are like nothing I've ever seen. But I can make one prediction that will hold. Bernie Sanders is going to be causing you and the rest of the Hillary camp a huge amount of anxiety for a long time to come and it isn't going to end with this primary election.
A public notice:
Third Way Democrats your day is done; Bernie Democrats have been born and we are coming to take our party back.
BainsBane
(53,001 posts)The times have changed, and Clinton isn't running as Third Way.
There is no media blackout against Sanders message. That excuse is getting increasingly absurd. He's on television constantly. He's had what is it, 10 or 12 debates and town halls? He says the same thing every single time. People know his message. In fact, I dare say we have it memorized.
That people don't vote as you demand they should don't equate to "antidemocratic forces." Rather, the assumption that the preferences of a few are more important than the votes of the majority is what is antidemocratic.
But I can make one prediction that will hold. Bernie Sanders is going to be causing you and the rest of the Hillary camp a huge amount of anxiety for a long time to come and it isn't going to end with this primary election.
That will make the GOP extremely happy.
BTW, your post was entirely unresponsive to mine or the subject of the OP.
kristopher
(29,798 posts)She is the Democratic Party placeholder for the 1% and corporate control of our culture.
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)And I'm white. But then, no one can "make" me feel any particular way. Do you? Why?
autonomous
(45 posts)one_voice
(20,043 posts)Fitting right in.
autonomous
(45 posts)I guess....
BTW what's your opinion of the phrase "bring them to heel?"
shenmue
(38,501 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)What PoC DO with that information is entirely their business, but I'm
not going to shut-up about it, and neither should anyone else.
If people chose to ignore her unseemly record, and vote for her anyway,
so be it.
But no one will be able to say "Gee, we didn't know".
840high
(17,196 posts)farleftlib
(2,125 posts)I'm tired of being told to shut up. Do NOT criticize Hillary! Do NOT defend Bernie!
This is a primary. What else are we supposed to talk about?
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)Response to EffieBlack (Original post)
immoderate This message was self-deleted by its author.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)How is it possible to claim this? Did you speak to everyone or is this an inference based on polls? I'm pretty certain outside places like DU and parts of the twitterverse, the annoying conversation you detail isn't really happening.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)So many lives have been destroyed by the war on drugs......Bernie wants to end it.....Hillary doesn't
Black lives, White lives, Hispanic lives....none of them matter in Prison. But the prison industrial complex that donates to Hillary matters.
Stupid wars.....Hillary is always ready for action....Bernie always urges caution.
Black lives, White lives, Hispanic lives....none of them matter in war. But the military contractors who donate to Hillary matter.
Hillary loves Wall St.money..... Bernie wants to hold them responsible for their crimes and break up the big banks.
Black lives, White lives, Hispanic lives....none of them matter when they are caught in an economic downturn. But wall street matters.
calguy
(5,222 posts)Very typical.
"Hillary the evil anti-Christ"
"Bernie the embodiment of the next Messiah".
You're all sounding like broken records. Just like Bernies stump speech getting stale as well
Tomorrow night you'll be shaking your head wondering why all those PoC in A
SC voted for HRC.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)tells me exactly why you are voting for Hillary.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)Never once stopping to think how real lives will be affected. That makes me shake my head.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Obviously you don't care about the issues where Hillary really harmed people's lives. So we know it didn't effect you, and you can happily support her. That's the kind of caring guy you are.
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)Agreed
surrealAmerican
(11,339 posts)You should try responding to what was actually posted, not a grossly exaggerated version you've constructed.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Damn right I'll be shaking my head over that...just like I shake my head when working class people vote for Republicans. Why in hell wouldn't I?
Spacedog1973
(221 posts)It's just arrogance that makes you assume you 'know what's good for them' allowing to you to think you know 'their own interests' .
So a redneck on government aid votes for republicans that want to cut it, but promise to make life he'll for Muslims, African Americans, gays and women.
The voter here has clearly considered that their bigotry, sexism and racism is more important to them than any other issues.
That is obviously 'their own interest'. You can disagree with their position and argue on its merits, but what you can't do is tell them (or anyone else) what their own interests are. That is a personal thing.
This is clearly where a lot of people go wrong. Arrogance doesn't endear anyone to changing their position.. Persuasion does however and empathy.
Raster
(20,996 posts)...of race, creed, color, gender or sexual orientation. Income inequality is at the nexus of all our problems in this country.
Hillary's mission is just to get elected. Period.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)Raster
(20,996 posts)She will do ANYTHING to secure the nomination, and then do ANYTHING to get elected.
And unfortunately, Warm, Social Campaign Hillary is not the Hillary Clinton America may get stuck with for four years.
Her endorsement from Kagan, co-founder of the PNAC made my blood run cold. These are the NeoCons, directly responsible for the fucking mess in Iraq, indirectly responsible for ISIS. Who's endorsement comes next: Perle* (the Prince of Darkness), Wolfowitz*, Cheney*, Libby*, Rumsfeld*? These are the people that openly advocated for "a New Pearl Harbor" to bring about their new Rome.
I believe with all my heart, that if Hillary Clinton is elected POTUS, we will see the cold, calculating Hillary come forth... the Hillary that will put the banksters and the billionaires ALWAYS before Jane and Joe Common Person. The Calculating Hillary that will put corporate interests before human interests time and time again.
I fear for this country.
MrWendel
(1,881 posts)wildeyed
(11,240 posts)A lesson in how NOT to do political persuasion 101. I tried making suggestions early on about better ways to approach the entire process. There is plenty out there on the topic. Plus just basic commonsense and courtesy is helpful. But oh well....
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)You're not remotely convincing me to join you.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Last edited Sat Feb 27, 2016, 11:05 AM - Edit history (1)
"I'd like a cone with a scoop of chocolate, please."
"Sorry, we're out of chocolate."
"Oh. OK.... I'd like a cone with two scoops of chocolate, please."
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)A variation that reminded me of ...
Man: I'll have a hamburger, well done, without onions please.
Waiter: Sorry sir, we're out of onions, you'll have to order your burger WITHOUT something else.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)to one of my favorite movies hilarious and spot on.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)But starting March 22nd and beyond, the tables will turn when Bernie has the advantage in states favorable to him.
His path to victory:
http://inthesetimes.com/article/18913/bernie-sanders-delegate-path-to-victory-super-tuesday
Excerpt:
The last and perhaps most interesting thing illustrated by the scenario above is that Sanders will almost certainly have to come from behind to win, maybe more than once. The schedule for early March heavily favors Clinton. But from March 22 on, things look considerably more favorable for Sanders, and a string of primaries and caucuses could provide him with a chance to rack up a series of consecutive wins. If that happens, we could see an ever-tightening race to the finish. This is a long way from over.
Happenstance24
(193 posts)FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)K!
Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #28)
betsuni This message was self-deleted by its author.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)DUers about how horrible, terrible and stinky Clinton is.
But when you, Empowerer, bravenak, uponit777, ChitownKev or other ACTUAL black posters post the complete opposite, saying why you support her, these same folks that damn near break their fingers on that rec button when non-blacks post the "Why Hillary is so bad for black people threads" suddenly howl and bray like tick afflicted mules.
Super Tuesday can't come fast enough.
wildeyed
(11,240 posts)It's got to come sooner or later, might as well be sooner.
"tick afflicted mules"
Chitown Kev
(2,197 posts)know that I wrote a VERY nasty anti-Clinton recently...
Number23
(24,544 posts)great affection for the Clintons but that you are able to analyze and be perfectly logical with ALL of these candidates.
And that includes recognizing Bernie Sanders' many, many, MANY massive, glaring flaws as a candidate and as a politician. The fact that you are as equally able to recognize and discuss his flaws as you are Clinton's has earned you the ire of a very... umm... TIRELESS group here. You should wear their ire as the badge of reason that it is.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Especially bravenak who does more incendiary posting than most. Maybe they post in the AA group or the Hillary group to be safe?
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)It is all about the issues and I don't care what color you are, everybody should support Bernie for his dedication to the issues and his honesty.
farleftlib
(2,125 posts)and added to that I will defend my candidate from anybody who attacks him, no matter what color they are. The Hillary supporters are determined to divide and conquer along color lines.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)I think people here on the Sanders side truly don't understand how offensive their constant, condescending attempts are to explain to people why they are so wrong to be supporting another candidate. If people only "understood" what Bernie stood for, if they only were "aware" of what a villainous corporatist racist whore HRC is.
If only people would WAKE UP (in all capital letters) and see what you see. Let's enlighten them, because they're obviously too uninformed or stupid to see the light.
Well, let me tell you something. Every time you do engage in that kind of insulting, condescending talk you drive people away from your candidate. People here on DU, people down there in SC ... they've watched, and read, and considered, and thought. And they're informed and smart. And they're choosing something different than you. I, for instance, have watched every debate, and read hundreds of articles and op-eds and analyses. And my conclusion is that I disagree with you: I have come, based on all my observations, to think Bernie Sanders is dedicated only to a vague ideology and has little depth or command even of the issues he has prioritized; that he is quite, in fact, dishonest when he entices voters with the lure of a revolution and massive (underconceived) programs he surely knows he cannot deliver. Furthermore, I've come to the conclusion from watching him that he's not a very deep thinker, and he's not a detail man. And I do truly believe that in government, the devil is in the details. I started out earlier this year thinking I would like Bernie Sanders, but I've come to conclude that, to me, he is merely a populist demagogue.
So NO, don't tell me that I "should" support Bernie Sanders. That is an insult to my intelligence and my powers of analysis. I would never, ever ... ever ... insult you by saying you "should" vote for somebody else. Please, support Sanders all the way. But stop with this offensive, condescending, narcissistic Bernsplainin' to people who are perfectly capable of seeing things for themselves. Not everyone views the world the way you do. You can disagree with me, but don't imply that I am stupid or uninformed.
And as for the constant refrain that Bernie's is a campaign of "the people," let me remind everyone that "the people" means all the people: people voting for Hillary Clinton, people who are voting for the crazy Republicans, and people who choose not to vote at all. You don't own "the people."
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)not voting for him.
I will tell them later, if he doesn't win that everything that happens will be their own fault.
Cheerio!! Oh yeah, Feel the Bern!!!!
jsmirman
(4,507 posts)as I said the other day "if we just insist a little harder" is not an effective form of outreach. Also, as someone who worked on the '08 Obama campaign, it is so counter to the way we went about advancing our cause.
FrenchieCat
(68,867 posts)....just sayin'!
Number23
(24,544 posts)I work in an incredibly diverse (international) environment and every single person that I come across is absolutely fascinated with this election. They are horrified by Trump (rightfully) and downright mystified by Sanders.
Without exception, every person I've spoken to -- from the interns to senior management -- cannot understand how a career politician of several DECADES in Congress could ever reasonably portray himself as "anti-establishment". He has been referred to as an opportunist more than once. I find that I can no more explain Sanders' (limited) appeal than I can Trump's.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)"Every time you do engage in that kind of insulting, condescending talk you drive people away from your candidate. "
*reads rest of post*
Hmmm. That was awkward.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)People that think we can do better can vote Sanders.
Mufaddal
(1,021 posts)There was also a big advice thread about this over on the Sanders For President subreddit saying more or less the same thing.
Thanks for your input, it is valuable.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I want Bernie to win.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Better keep trying.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Vote for the person who's been ON THEIR FUCKING SIDE since his college days, WITHOUT interruption and WITHOUT fail. Vote for the person who's supported their EQUALITY at every turn in his FUCKING LIFE.
Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)rbrnmw
(7,160 posts)Right here in this thread. It's crazy
mmonk
(52,589 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)--is advocating for a candidate considered "telling people how to vote." Maybe they should take their own advice and stop ordering the rest of us to vote for Clinton.
bigtree
(85,915 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Vinca
(50,168 posts)Apparently they are not for a $15 minimum wage, want to go far into debt for college, don't care about guaranteed healthcare and are dismissive of a person with an arrest record connected to fighting for civil rights. I was wondering this morning if it might be a religious thing. I don't know. I can't figure out any other reason for the dislike of Bernie.
...your own condescension should clue you in. According to you, black folk just don't know what's good for them.
That's a hell of a campaign appeal you have there.
Vinca
(50,168 posts)they're mostly white. Why don't you explain to me what it is about Hillary that is so attractive? She's called AA a rather nasty name, made a remark that could have come out of a slave owner - "bring to heel," and supported her husband's policies that devastated the black community. Her black opponent in 2008 was referred to as a "fairy tale." I really don't get it.
bigtree
(85,915 posts)...and I find your remark that my comment is 'uncalled for' just so typical of the treatment black folks dissenting from Sanders receive here.
You shouldn't wonder at all why there's so little appeal to blacks for the Sanders campaign. You've made up your minds, and you think your reasoning is superior to the opinion of actual black voters who disagree.
I think you should continue with that. It's been a winning strategy for you folks, so far.
Vinca
(50,168 posts)their own best interests. A fair statement. I defended myself by saying everyone here has talked about Republicans voting against their own best interests and they're overwhelmingly white. You seem to be enjoying victimization. It's sad.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)Maybe because their life experience has demonstrated to them that his promises have little chance of being realized and "while the arc of history is long and bends toward justice" it's a long and arduous process.
Vinca
(50,168 posts)The Clintons have been so wonderful. The "bring them to heel" comment is probably the most racist phrase I've ever heard. Someone sent me a private message that made the real reason for the dislike of Bernie come into focus: anti-Semitism. I suspected it, but the person sending the message - a Hillary supporter - pretty much gave it away.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)Who are them?
Joe Lieberman went down to Mississippi during Freedom Summer to register black people to vote. He could have been beaten up or killed...We aren't required to treat him reverentially at this site and none of us do. Charlton Heston and Mitch McConnell were at the March On Washington. We aren't asked to treat them or have treated them reverentially either.
Let me say that as someone who is matrillineally Jewish and has felt the sting of anti-semitism and written about it here I find the suggestion that African Americans won't vote for Senator Sanders because he is Jewish patently absurd. Blacks have been voting for Jews since time immemorial.There are currently nine Jewish Democratic senators and many of them owe their margin of victory to black voters. In fact Steve Cohen represents a majority black district in Congress so we can just put that canard to rest.
Number23
(24,544 posts)to why black people aren't feeling Sanders.
It's "anti-Semitism!" It's the lunar eclipse! It's chemtrails and Stonehenge! It's apparently every damn thing in the fucking world other than the fact that this man joined the Dem party last year and has come out of nowhere to run for president. That he has had no national profile in the more than 30 years that he's been in Congress and that the vast majority of the policies he's espousing don't have a chance in hell of ever passing.
Ascribing nefarious motives is so much easier to do than just acknowledge that their candidate has run a horrible campaign and not put in even the basic amount of work needed to win the presidency. According to white people, black people hate EVERYBODY. It is classic projection and says far more about the people spouting this bullshit than the people to whom it's directed.
Vinca
(50,168 posts)Point #2 - I'm only reporting what someone sent me a message about. In fact, they responded to my message back to them and affirmed the anti-Semitism. I'm sorry if that doesn't happen to fit your story, but everyone lives a different life.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)But I don't see a factual basis for suggesting Senator Sanders failing to gain traction among this group or that group is a function of anti-semitism. I would be interested in that's person's rationale.
African Americans gave Gore-Lieberman 90% of their vote in 00:
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2000/
which is actually more than what they gave Kerry/Edwards:
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2004/
Vinca
(50,168 posts)to understand why Bernie isn't appealing to the AA community, I did some reading around the Internet. Apparently, what I thought and was confirmed by the message isn't a big secret. It may or may not be a problem in the South Carolina election. I don't think anyone has ever thought to ask about it.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)African Americans are the most stalwart Democratic voters and consequently support the consensus candidates of the party.
Vinca
(50,168 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)I would also point to Clinton over Tsongas in 92 and Kennedy over McCarthy in 68.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)But as has been pointed out, a good-sized chunk of the AA population isn't really very liberal at all. That demographic contains a lot of (social) conservatism. Not so conservative as to vote Republican, but it's not hard to see why a moderate-to-conservative candidate like Hillary has large appeal. Is it self-defeating? I certainly think so...but it's not my call to make.
bigtree
(85,915 posts)...I wrote a response, but stuffed it, like I've stuffed dozens of others.
I'm way tired of explaining myself to people who insist on telling me how I should think, feel, and react to this campaign, as a black man. White folks doing this...
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)That is why smart political campaigns spend most of their time getting folks who are already inclined to support them to the polls instead of persuading people who are disinclined to vote for them to vote for them.
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)People can figure things out for themselves and have their own motives and experiences to determine how they want to vote and I believe it is patronizing to try to convert them or tell them they are wrong but, in my view, this whole topic of discussion is tainted and insincere in the context of this primary.
I don't believe or trust what Hillary supporters have to say on this topic, it is being inflated and spun for partisan reasons. sorry.
monicaangela
(1,508 posts)it is as drastic as you say it is. I believe we make our decisions based on history. History has been said to be seen differently in the eyes of those that may have the opportunity to read it. For instance, there is the history that has excluded women and minorities roles in the development of the country, and then there is A Peoples History of the U.S. Reading what would be considered a regular history book you might get an altogether different idea of what has happened in this nation than what has actually happened. I say all of this to say that some who have a difference of opinion and are so adamant about trying to present the facts as they see them do it out of love and not disrespect. I believe that should be taken into consideration before lodging a complaint.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)or any supporter has almost no impact on how people vote, and that's always been the case.
Clinton was going to win this no matter what, Sanders is way too liberal for this very conservative country.
Almost no one is swayed by political arguments. Most people vote with their gut, not on policy positions. Sanders could only gain support as people realized there was even another option, and only more liberal people who don't think he's too risky for the general election. That can only get him so far.
No demographic changes their voting behavior because of what is said on DU.
Black voters are among the most conservative demographics in the Democratic Party. Internet arguments won't change that.
LexVegas
(6,005 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)They wouldn't listen to our voices. Now they'll have to listen to our votes.
My vote says two things: I want Hillary to be our Nominee. I want Hillary to be our President. (And by that you can also infer that I reject Bernie. He does not appeal to me at all.)
Donkees
(31,076 posts)"I think she would do a good job because her husband was president," she said. "He could give her some support."
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)What could possibly persuade black voters that voting for Sanders is more in their own interests than is voting for Clinton if not by pointing out the historical voting records and differing platforms of the two candidates?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)there have been a couple of good ones recently.
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)because they don't want to be told who they should vote for by stupid, insensitive, paternalistic white people who can't understand how they could possibly prefer Hillary Clinton.
Personally, I find that argument strangely circular.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)mhatrw
(10,786 posts)The only exception is people who think the whole thing is rigged and would never be caught dead voting for a major party candidate and some hardcore Hillary lovers who wanted Hillary over Obama in 2008 and feel it is her turn now. OK, I have encountered a couple people who say they like Trump, but it's just to be "edgy" and contrarian as far as I can tell.
Disclaimer: I don't talk to many people who watch cable news networks in my real world.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Blacks in the south have a long relationship with the Clintons, like the Clintons, relate to them as fellow Southerners, and Hillary works the personal angle in small groups. They like that. They don't know Bernie, and don't relate to his more impersonal, generalized style.
The Atlantic has a couple of good articles about it.
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)That's not my real world anymore, so there is not much I can do about that.
Bernie is a damn Yankee, but his heart is in the right place. The Clintons are the ultimate pay-to-play party machine patronizers and I understand the appeal of the devil you know vs. the foreign rhetorician you don't.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)But I strongly doubt his ability to get things done with this Congress. Hillary is tough and experienced, but has the Clintons moral fuzziness. Either would have to face Mitch McConnell.
The candidate I really want doesn't exist.
cs1058
(18 posts)See article at Huffington post. As with many things Hillary was against him before she was for him (Obama) but more importantly it was done in a racially charged way.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-rucker/can-black-people-trust-hillary_b_9312004.html
betsuni
(25,122 posts)Splinter Cell
(703 posts)If you want the worst possible choice, go for it. Don't piss on others because they try to offer something better.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)but I don't think the role of MVB is played very well. MBV seems nearly brain dead, unable to muster even a single reason to vote for Hillary. One gets the sense that MBV is being childish and just voting for Hillary because CSS pisses him off. Granted, some DU Hillary supporters might really be like that , but since MBV is supposed to represent most black voters, I find MVB to be an insult to the character and intelligence of black voters.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)The reason they aren't stating why they're voting for Hillary is not because I think they are "unable to muster even a single reason." It's because THEY DON'T HAVE TO EXPLAIN THEIR CHOICE TO BERNIE'S SUPPORTERS!
This notion that black voters owe you an explanation for their vote is ludicrous. They can just say, "I've decided to vote for Hillary." Period. And it's nobody's damned business why, unless they choose to elaborate. That does not make them stupid or unintelligent.
My scenario conveys exactly what I mean it to convey. Black voters have overwhelmingly decided to vote for Hillary. Some Sanders supporters continue to try to convince them otherwise, often by just repeating the same things that black voters already know (and probably knew well before the Sanders supporters had a clue) and when they don't get the response they want, repeating it again and again, louder and louder each time.
I suspect that's one of the reasons that Hillary did so well tonight - black voters were probably disgusted at the attacks on her and stepped up and stepped up strong for her to send a message. Unfortunately, it seems as if some folks still haven't gotten it.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)How am I supposed to take seriously your suggestion that there are these conversations all over the place in which many Sanders supporters are "repeating the same things that black voters already know (and probably knew well before the Sanders supporters had a clue) and when they don't get the response they want, repeating it again and again, louder and louder each time"?
It just strikes me as funny.
Nedsdag
(2,437 posts)They should know what the consequences will be when Hillary takes them for granted as usual.
After tonight's primary, it'll be the last time you will see her in SC. She doesn't believe in a 50 state strategy.
yourout
(7,520 posts)Any liberals/progressives that vote for her better be ready for the Rahm treatment.
Once she has your vote she will drop you like a nuclear fuel rod.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I can't tell you how much we appreciate your wisdom about what is best for us.