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Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:02 PM

I would like to thank the Third Way.

For proving to me that the mantra of "By the people, for the people" where democracy is considered has had a tag hanging off its toe for the past sixteen years. For instance; I present the "most experienced democratic candidate"-- read as immense doubt placed on the first three quarters of that quote(which isn't even right, considering Bernie has more years in the senate than Clinton has as it is.) The Third Way is not about "by the people, for the people", it's about "from the people, to the corporations". I didn't enlist to fight for a bunch of coprophilic plutocrats. And that is what you want to deliver us to.

Foreign Policy

Iraq
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/hillarys-pro-iraq-war-vot_b_9112232.html
"Hillary has now apologized for her Iraq War vote. But even her apology feels more like political calculation than genuine contrition. A meaningful apology would be directed to the Iraq war vets and Iraqi civilians who lost life or limb, to the American taxpayer for wasting over a trillion dollars, and to the rest of the world for making it less safe.

Hillary Clinton lost the 2008 Democratic nomination to Barack Obama in large part because of her Iraq vote so she must now try to immunize herself with her weak apology in the hopes that 8 years later, Democratic caucus and primary voters have short memories.

Moreover, none of her apologies give any indication of what she learned from her supposedly mistaken vote. Has she learned that using American military power to instigate regime change in the Middle East leads more often than not to chaos, anarchy, increased terrorist threats, refugee crises, and even the destabilization of Europe?"



Syria
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/19/hillary-clinton-isis-strategy-ground-troops-airstrikes-no-fly-zone-syria
"Hillary Clinton distanced herself from Barack Obama’s strategy for defeating Islamic State extremists on Thursday in a sweeping foreign policy speech that called for greater use of American ground troops and an intensified air campaign.

Though ruling out deploying the tens of thousands of US troops seen in Iraq and Afghanistan, the former of secretary of state made clear she would take a notably more hawkish approach than the current administration if she is elected president."


Libya
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/us/politics/hillary-clinton-libya.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=span-ab-top-region&_r=0
"This is the story of how a woman whose Senate vote for the Iraq war may have doomed her first presidential campaign nonetheless doubled down and pushed for military action in another Muslim country. As she once again seeks the White House, campaigning in part on her experience as the nation's chief diplomat, an examination of the intervention she championed shows her at what was arguably her moment of greatest influence as secretary state."

"Libya's descent into chaos began with a rushed decision to go to war, made in what one top official called a "shadow of uncertainty" as to Colonel Qaddafi's intentions. The mission inexorably evolved even as Mrs. Clinton foresaw some of the hazards of toppling another Middle Eastern strongman. She pressed for a secret American program that supplied arms to rebel militias, an effort never before confirmed."


Saudi Arabia [y'know, the people who made ISIS's brand of Islam]
http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2016/01/10/445291/US-Hillary-Clinton-Saudi-Arabia-/
“It’s tough to call her comments anything except ‘the pot calling the kettle black,’” John Miranda said in an interview with Press TV.

The Clinton Foundation and Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign have enjoyed “numerous donations from Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia’s various corporations and princes that have dealings with the United States,” he noted.

“For her to say that we need to talk to them [Saudis] about this; she honestly could care less,” he added.

Miranda said that Saudi Arabia is committing the same crimes that the American people associate with the Daesh (ISIL) terrorist group rather than a long-time US ally in the Middle East.

“Everything that’s happening with the unrest in northern Iraq and Syria, they are doing the same exact things that happen in Saudi Arabia,” he said.

“Saudi Arabia is also one of the countries that is funding the terrorists in Syria and northern Iraq, so obviously they are practicing the same type of things,” the analyst added.

“Hillary Clinton is a complete hypocrite. That is the only way I can describe her,” Miranda stressed.


Honduras
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/08/exclusive_hillary_clinton_sold_out_honduras_lanny_davis_corporate_cash_and_the_real_story_about_the_death_of_a_latin_america_democracy/
Though it’s less sexy than Benghazi, the crisis following a coup in Honduras in 2009 has Hillary Clinton’s fingerprints all over it, and her alleged cooperation with oligarchic elites during the affair does much to expose Clinton’s newfound, campaign-season progressive rhetoric as hollow. Moreover, the Honduran coup is something of a radioactive issue with fallout that touches many on Team Clinton, including husband Bill, once put into a full context.


Colombia
http://www.ibtimes.com/hillary-clinton-pushes-colombia-free-trade-agreement-latest-email-dump-2326068
"One of the 2011 emails from Clinton to U.S. Trade Representative Michael Froman and Clinton aide Robert Hormats has a subject line “Sandy Levin” — a reference to the Democratic congressman who serves on the House Ways and Means Committee, which oversees U.S. trade policy. In the email detailing her call with Levin, she said the Michigan lawmaker “appreciates the changes that have been made, the national security arguments and Santos's reforms” -- the latter presumably a reference to Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos. She concludes the message about the call with Levin by saying, “I told him that at the rate we were going, Columbian [sic] workers were going to end up w the same or better rights than workers in Wisconsin and Indiana and, maybe even, Michigan.”

Froman — a former Citigroup executive who as trade representative was lobbying for passage of the deal — responded by thanking Clinton for her "help and support.” Hormats, a former vice chairman of Goldman Sachs who subsequently was hired by Clinton at the State Department, later chimed in, telling her “terrific job” and “GREAT line on Columbian [sic] workers!!!!!”



Social Policy
TPP Support
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160129/23451533466/hillary-clinton-flip-flopped-tpp-before-so-big-business-lobbyists-are-confident-shell-really-flip-back-after-election.shtml
Isn't politics just great? Politicians aren't exactly known for their honesty on things, often saying things to voters just to get elected. But Hillary Clinton's views on the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) agreement have received quite a lot of scrutiny. After all, while she was at the State Department, she was a strong supporter of the TPP, and so it was a bit of a surprise last October when she came out against it. Of course, the fact that the deal is fairly unpopular with the Democratic Party base probably contributed quite a lot to that decision -- and Clinton's weak attempt at revisionist history to pretend she never really supported it.

But, of course, when you do a pandering flip flop like that just to get votes, you have to remember that plenty of people will see right through it, and some of those people might reveal the strategy. Like, for instance, the head of the US Chamber of Commerce, the world's largest lobbying organization, who is leading the charge in support of the TPP. Its top lobbyist, Tom Donohue, flat out admitted recently that he knows that if she actually got elected, she'll revert back to supporting the TPP, because of course she will:
The Chamber president said he expected Hillary Clinton would ultimately support the TPP if she becomes the Democratic nominee for president and is elected. He argued that she has publicly opposed the deal chiefly because her main challenger, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT), has also done so. "If she were to get nominated, if she were to be elected, I have a hunch that what runs in the family is you get a little practical if you ever get the job," he said.


Destruction of internet freedom
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/09/hillary_clinton_and_internet_freedom/
What Hillary Clinton is condemning here is exactly that which not only the administration in which she serves, but also she herself, has done in one of the most important Internet freedom cases of the last decade: WikiLeaks. And beyond that case, both Clinton specifically and the Obama administration generally have waged a multi-front war on Internet freedom.

First, let us recall that many of WikiLeaks’ disclosures over the last 18 months have directly involved improprieties, bad acts and even illegalities on the part of Clinton’s own State Department. As part of WikiLeaks’ disclosures, she was caught ordering her diplomats at the U.N. to engage in extensive espionage on other diplomats and U.N. officials; in a classified memo, she demanded “forensic technical details about the communications systems used by top UN officials, including passwords and personal encryption keys used in private and commercial networks for official communications” as well as “credit card numbers, email addresses, phone, fax and pager numbers and even frequent-flyer account numbers” for a whole slew of diplomats, actions previously condemned by the U.S. as illegal. WikiLeaks also revealed that the State Department — very early on in the Obama administration — oversaw a joint effort between its diplomats and GOP officials to pressure and coerce Spain to block independent judicial investigations into the torture policies of Bush officials: a direct violation of then-candidate Obama’s pledge to allow investigations to proceed as well being at odds with the White House’s dismissal of questions about the Spanish investigation as merely “hypothetical.” WikiLeaks disclosures also revealed that public denials from Clinton’s State Department about the U.S. role in Yemen were at best deeply misleading. And, of course, those disclosures revealed a litany of other truly bad acts by the U.S. Government generally.


Manhattan Project against encryption
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/12/hillary-clinton-wants-manhattan-like-project-to-break-encryption/
Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has called for a "Manhattan-like project" to help law enforcement break into encrypted communications. This is in reference to the Manhattan Project, the top-secret concentrated research effort which resulted in the US developing nuclear weapons during World War II.

At Saturday's Democratic debate (transcript here), moderator Martha Raddatz asked Clinton about Apple CEO Tim Cook's statements that any effort to break encryption would harm law-abiding citizens.


PATRIOT Act support
https://ballotpedia.org/Hillary_Clinton
Clinton voted in support of HR 3162 - USA Patriot Act of 2001. The bill passed on October 25, 2001, by a vote of 98-1. The bill allowed law enforcement more authority in searching homes, tapping phone lines and tracking internet information while searching for suspected terrorists
.


Secure Fence Act
https://ballotpedia.org/Hillary_Clinton
Clinton voted in support of HR 6061 - Secure Fence Act of 2006. The bill passed on September 29, 2006, by a vote of 80-19. The bill authorized the construction of 700 miles of additional fencing along the United States-Mexico border. The Democratic Party split on the vote.



H-1B Visa support


This is the so called pre-ordained candidate for the Democratic Party. And when candidates like this are being fielded, an an Independent who is more democratic than the whole DNC put together has to come in and save the fuckin' party, the establishment has some serious soul searching to engage in, that is, if they still have souls to search.

72 replies, 4760 views

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Arrow 72 replies Author Time Post
Reply I would like to thank the Third Way. (Original post)
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 OP
BillZBubb Feb 2016 #1
UglyGreed Feb 2016 #2
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #4
Bubzer Feb 2016 #22
FangedNoumenom Feb 2016 #31
Todays_Illusion Feb 2016 #3
EndElectoral Feb 2016 #5
FangedNoumenom Feb 2016 #34
felix_numinous Feb 2016 #6
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #8
Dragonfli Feb 2016 #13
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #16
Dragonfli Feb 2016 #18
highprincipleswork Feb 2016 #23
Gregorian Feb 2016 #7
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #9
Dragonfli Feb 2016 #15
Impedimentus Feb 2016 #10
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #11
Ferd Berfel Feb 2016 #14
Samantha Feb 2016 #12
MrMickeysMom Feb 2016 #17
whereisjustice Feb 2016 #19
davidthegnome Feb 2016 #20
WhaTHellsgoingonhere Feb 2016 #21
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #42
Kittycat Feb 2016 #63
closeupready Feb 2016 #24
TIME TO PANIC Feb 2016 #25
WillyT Feb 2016 #26
Uncle Joe Feb 2016 #27
Jezza Feb 2016 #28
kenn3d Feb 2016 #29
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #35
Martin Eden Feb 2016 #30
malletgirl02 Feb 2016 #32
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #36
Martin Eden Feb 2016 #38
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #57
Martin Eden Feb 2016 #66
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #67
Martin Eden Feb 2016 #68
erlewyne Feb 2016 #33
JEB Feb 2016 #37
Barack_America Feb 2016 #39
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #41
amborin Feb 2016 #40
Arazi Feb 2016 #43
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #44
dchill Feb 2016 #45
Orsino Feb 2016 #46
Bad Dog Feb 2016 #47
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #48
Bad Dog Feb 2016 #51
Hiraeth Feb 2016 #49
SoLeftIAmRight Feb 2016 #50
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #52
SoLeftIAmRight Feb 2016 #53
MaggieD Feb 2016 #54
VulgarPoet Feb 2016 #56
JonLeibowitz Feb 2016 #58
MaggieD Feb 2016 #59
polly7 Feb 2016 #61
Kittycat Feb 2016 #64
polly7 Feb 2016 #65
bobthedrummer Feb 2016 #71
berni_mccoy Feb 2016 #55
polly7 Feb 2016 #60
Betty Karlson Feb 2016 #62
SoapBox Feb 2016 #69
Gamecock Lefty Feb 2016 #70
VulgarPoet Mar 2016 #72

Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:03 PM

1. Prepare to get blistered for telling the truth.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:05 PM

2. Modus operandi

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:07 PM

4. They'll just take my ignore list thirty deep instead of twenty to be fair

but hey, what do I know. I'm a biracial millennial airman who to them, is on the wrong side by dint of every single bit of identity politics they can throw at me-- and that's not counting the ones that likely doubt who and what I am, but are thankfully too gracious to actually admit to it.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:03 PM

22. Isn't it ironic that some claiming to be dems are using identity politics against other dems?

It's exactly what I would expect from the GOP...and yet we're getting it from Hillary supporters.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 04:06 PM

31. They won't even read it. They avoid the truth like a vampire avoids sunlight. n/t

 

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:06 PM

3. The entire MSM is telling Bernie Sanders supporters to give up and give in. Stay and fight!

I think there is this tremendous push because the Hillary support is crumbling. Keep fighting we can win.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:11 PM

5. A drunk driver apologizes for killing people in a car crash. There is accountabilty.

HRC's vote for the Iraq Disaster led to the killing of a LOT of people needlessly. I accept her apology, but I hold her accountable in a vote Sanders voted NO for. How did he know and her not? There are congressmen and women who showed courage. She did not.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:14 PM

6. It's all blood money

of which Karma I do not want anything to do with.

edited to add:
All of this has been done in our names, with American blood too. Being a super power has meant being ruled by these super predators, they are charming and know what to say to stay in power, but we have a responsibility to change our representation of ourselves and to the world.

If we do not change this destructive course by election, I believe conditions could get worse here. People are tired of being lied to, robbed and abused by police. It has to change.

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Response to felix_numinous (Reply #6)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:17 PM

8. That's a threefold ass-beating that I want nothing to do with as well.

All bad mojo concentrated in one place, and sooner or later, that's a debt we'll have to repay.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:42 PM

13. "Threefold ass-beating" Makes me assume you have an acquaintance with

or have incorporated some of the teachings of Wicca as have I (Just as I have Incorporated Buddhism and Taoism) in my choice of wise things I choose to learn from.

The three fold karma kickback is straight from Wiccan Teachings. I may be agnostic, but I do believe in some of the teachings of the wise and ancient.

Tell me (I am only curious and it wouldn't change my opinion of you no matter the answer), but is that a coincidence? Or should I be saying Blessed be and Merry meet at this point?

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #13)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:49 PM

16. I've been a Wiccan since I was seventeen

It's something I do my damnedest to go by nowadays, although without a coven, I've somewhat forgone some of the customary greetings in like company. Not many pagans of any flavor in my part of Virginia, from what I've seen thus far.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:53 PM

18. Even tho you have forgone the customary greetings, Merry meet again! from one solitary practitioner

to another

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:04 PM

23. Bless you both, if you don't mind my saying so. Need much more soul on this site & throughout US.

 

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:16 PM

7. Can we call them republicans yet?

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:17 PM

9. That gets in the way of their trying to push labels instead of contents.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:49 PM

15. We could call them that if this were 1980, unfortunately the Republican infiltration is complete

So we have to call them whatever they register as even when they are OBVIOUSLY republican as such have been know for over 60 years now.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:19 PM

10. Excellent post explaining exactly Hillary's policies and what she is !

Thank You !

Expect it to be ignored by all the Clinton ideologues.

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Response to Impedimentus (Reply #10)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:21 PM

11. Or trying to paint things as right-wing smears when a Clinton ideologue said in an earlier thread

that we're not supposed to be shooting the messenger (in defense of a Clinton mouthpiece publication).

Or trying to paint this as all attacking and questioning as to why I can't lift Bernie up.

Or trying to paint me as a right wing plant.

Y'know, the usual. I'm used to it.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:46 PM

14. This explains it..

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:25 PM

12. Excellent thread, VulgarPoet

Thanks for posting this.

Sam

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:50 PM

17. You know.... That's a cogent thought...

the establishment has some serious soul searching to engage in, that is, if they still have souls to search.


I honestly think they have no souls. Perhaps they fear a wind shift into a completely bold and evolutionary direction... All the things that their party was to have proven over time would happen before they sold out.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 02:56 PM

19. Like General Motors, what's good for Hillary is good for country. We all know how that turned out...

another bailout for corporations who sent millions of jobs to Mexico, China and India.

You know, for the good of America. And Democrats.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:00 PM

20. An enthusiastic K & R

Thank you for posting this. Looking at actual votes, actual policies, actual things the candidates have said and done... should be what determines who we ultimately vote for.

We can argue whether candidates have evolved, whether their opinions and stances on the issues have changed, we can argue why they did what they did, but what they actually did is precisely what we should be debating, because it's a good indicator of what they will DO in office.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:00 PM

21. But they're claiming to be Liberals and Progressives. How can you tell the difference?

 

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Response to WhaTHellsgoingonhere (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 09:28 AM

42. Look in the direction their arrow points.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:13 PM

63. +1

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:16 PM

24. I will not be voting for her.

 

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:21 PM

25. K & R!

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:39 PM

26. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

 


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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:44 PM

27. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, VulgarPoet.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:45 PM

28. +27... hope everyone votes!

What many people don't know about Hilary, is that she used to be a hardcore Republican. She canvassed and campaigned for Republican Richard Nixon for President. She worked for Republican Barry Goldwater's campaign in 1964, and was even elected president of Wellesley College's Young Republicans club. (her freshman year) --- there is a history worth studying;

...in 1968, (her senior year) Clinton interned in Congress for Republican Representative Laird from Wisconsin; then flip-flopped to McGovern. who by the way ran one of the historically worst campaigns this century; not only that, but in 2008, McGovern endorsed Obama over Hillary Clinton, siting leadership and policy.

...and even since her college years, Hillary is become such a huge risk to oligarchy... cannot fathom electing such a puppet candidate who takes +$150M in campaign funding from Law Firms, Citicorp, Goldmansachs, DLA Piper, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and Monsanto.

The choice is clear for 2016. Vote for a conservative Republican. Vote for Hillary Clinton.

...Bernie Sanders' time is 2016. it's time now for a progressive democratic socialist. His ideas are now needed more than ever.
...fact is, bernie's proposal to evolve medicare to a universal healthcare system that is far better than the current Affordablecare Act
...NAFTA (1993), WTO (1995), are huge examples of corporatists... in fact from the Democrats under Bill Clinton. and supported emphatically by Hillary. (Berni Sanders ALWAYS opposed)
WTO - what the WTO was: a transnational, secret, autocratic system of control inimical to our democratic system of governing, which includes open courts.
---- on which, Hillary has never made a position

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 03:59 PM

29. TY - Posted OP link to twitter

Kenn Threed ‏@kenn3d now7 seconds ago
Hillary's rap sheet:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511364300
Third Way Government "from the people, to the corporations"
#SuperTuesday #Sanders2016 #GOTV

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Response to kenn3d (Reply #29)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 04:25 PM

35. Many thanks!

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 04:05 PM

30. Hillary's foreign policy "creds" are the biggest reason I won't support her in a Dem primary.

K&R for a post with critically important information very relevant to this election!

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 04:10 PM

32. Me too

The same for me, Hilary's record of consistently supporting regime change was the main reason I can't vote for her. When I saw Bernie Sanders foreign policy chops on the PBS I became a Bernie Sanders supporter.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 08:09 PM

36. Except every time this gets pointed out, it's slammed as "right wing smearing".

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #36)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 10:51 PM

38. Not every time. Check out this argument from a Hillary supporter:

Here's the link to the thread/post.

And here's the argument by BlueCaliDem justifying Hillary's IWR vote:

She was Senator of New York State - the State hit by 9/11 the hardest. Do you think New Yorkers would've understood had she voted against the AUMF Against Terrorists and the AUMF Against Iraq when they believed that Saddam Hussein most likely had something to do with 9/11? Do you think they'd happily re-elect her? Or do you believe her political career would have ended? Think about it.

Hindsight is 20/20 and tanding on the moral high-ground is wonderfully noble, but that and $4 bucks will buy you a latte at Starbucks as a politician in a time when Americans wanted retribution for those attacks. Hillary Clinton was elected by the majority of voting New Yorkers, tasked with representing ALL New Yorkers. They'd been the victims of the biggest attack on American soil in American history and they wanted recompense. Had she voted NO on either bills, she would have been seen as a traitor to New York and her constituents' needs.


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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #38)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:55 PM

57. So we're supposed to accept that Iraq was the retaliatory will of New York

when our assailants came from... Afghanistan?



ETA: Not just Afghanistan, but were the same mujahideen that our CIA armed decades prior?

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #57)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:23 PM

66. Yes, according to that argument from a Hillatry supporter ...

New Yorkers believed Saddam was behind 9/11 and Hillary was obliged to serve the wishes of her constituents (and not jeopardize her reelection) by taking vengeance against Iraq even though she knew they had been misled by a pack of lies.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #66)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:25 PM

67. So pragmatism over idealism again

and never explaining to her constituents that it was indeed all a pack of lies? That'd have been the more honorable way out rather than scapegoating a country that had literally nothing to do with the attack on our soil. Saddam was many evil things, yes, but he neither harbored WMDs or al-Qaeda from anything that I've read on that situation; which makes him non-complicit in the attack.

Or do Hillary supporters believe in scapegoating anyone convenient for "interventions"?

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #67)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:28 PM

68. I doubt very many Hillary supporters would embrace the argument put forth by BlueCaliDem ...

... but anyone who does is unhinged, IMO.

I wouldn't even go so far as to call it "pragmatism" or even factually correct, as there were huge anti-war protests in New York before Shock and Awe was launched.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 04:13 PM

33. Super Thread !!!

Thanks millions VulgarPoet, I love this remark "an Independent who is more
democratic than the whole DNC put together"
especially.

For a week I have been trying to put those words in my mouth
but couldn't spit them out.

BERNIE SANDERS is more democratic than the whole DNC put together.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 08:54 PM

37. Double agent who's cover is blown.

 

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 10:57 PM

39. Fantastic thread.

There it is. Some folks around here might reconsider who (and what) they're "with".

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Response to Barack_America (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:31 AM

41. Doubt it.

Like an above poster said, they avoid truth like vampires running from the sun.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Sun Feb 28, 2016, 11:05 PM

40. K&R

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 10:00 AM

43. Thank you!!!!!



Bravo!!

Bookmarking this genius collection for future reference

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Response to Arazi (Reply #43)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 10:07 AM

44. And I'm going to keep looking. Keep finding things to add.

There are myriad reasons to not support Hillary, and this is just a small sampling, imo...

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 10:43 AM

45. Kick!

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 10:50 AM

46. And yet these issues are largely missing from the primary discourse.

America don't give a fuck, it seems. Shrug and vote for the celebrity.

I'll vote for the first woman president, but my enthusiasm will otherwise be low. Nothing persuades me that when the glass ceiling finally crumbles, Clinton won't go on doing as she has done.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:14 PM

47. I thought the 3rd way was about having a candidate.

That America's conservative electorate would actually vote for. This is a country that returned George W Bush twice! He couldn't win a council seat in the UK.

Even UKIP leader Farage, (famed swivel eyed loon,) thinks Trump is too extreme. Our Conservative prime minister is ideologically about the same as Barack Obama.

Americans are on a whole very right wing.

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Response to Bad Dog (Reply #47)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:28 PM

48. I'm slowly coming to this realization tbh

Even our mainstream leftism is right-wing, and one of my british friends keeps asking me why America's politics are as assbackwards as they are

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #48)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:42 PM

51. I'm sorry.

And I wish you well, but I think an imperialist attitude may be to blame. We didn't get the NHS until after WW2 when we'd pretty much lost the empire. Prior to that people were more interested in projecting British power around the World than social change at home.

Someone living in a shotgun shack with no health insurance and a hand to mouth existence can still find comfort in being a citizen of the greatest nation on Earth. America is certainly the most powerful, but where Fox and Co have succeeded is by conflating that success with low regulation and insufficient social provision.

It's also why Trump perpetrates the myth of making America great again, as if Obamacare had somehow made you less great, and all his rhetoric is about winning, nothing else, nothing concrete, (apart from walls) just winning.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:32 PM

49. Thank you for this OP. K&R

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:37 PM

50. Facts Facts Facts

 

Is that all you got!

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Response to SoLeftIAmRight (Reply #50)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:44 PM

52. I've got facts, vitriol, a notebook, a microphone, and a digital audio workstation

I can promise you that if Hillary or Trump take the White House, I'm becoming the next Zack De La Rocha.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:47 PM

53. Sing those spicy words - VulgarPoet

 

be well

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:49 PM

54. Yes, if you're not a socialist you're republican lite

 

Yeah, yeah, we know. Whatever. I'm a liberal capitalist. For real.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:52 PM

56. Well, you certainly don't get to claim the Democrat title

and still support illegal military intervention in a sovereign state 5 times over that has left said sovereign states destitute and barely functional. At least, not in the real world.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #54)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:55 PM

58. No refutation of the many facts presented in this OP?

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Response to JonLeibowitz (Reply #58)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:58 PM

59. Oh please I don't even read this stuff anymore

 

Too much repetition, over dramatization and hyperbole. I, like many voters, have tuned it out by this point. Rant on. Nobody is listening anymore except the choir.

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Response to MaggieD (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:11 PM

61. ............... yeah, it's boring. Why bother your beautiful mind?

[Center][Center]

[Center][Center]

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Response to polly7 (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:14 PM

64. This isn't happening on their private beach, why should they care? eom

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Response to Kittycat (Reply #64)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:16 PM

65. True, it's brown people an ocean away. nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #61)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 02:03 PM

71. +1 K&R n/t

 

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 12:51 PM

55. No wonder Establishment Republicans are going to Vote Hillary over Trump

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:01 PM

60. Saudi Arabia gave money to her Foundation.

She made weapons deals with them - weapons used to destroy Yemen, commit war crimes and kill thousands of innocents.

I believe every intervention she's been involved with has been all about money, imperialism and advancing the PNAC agenda. She not only learned from Iraq (after pushing for it to the public and the only one who ever absolutely associated Hussein with Al Qaeda), she used what she learned to push for the same in Libya and Syria. Resulting in IS, Boko Haram and even millions more human lives destroyed by death, homelessness and unimaginable loss. When I see the claim that she's been a 'champion for women and children around the world' I get a sick feeling in my stomach.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:12 PM

62. Third Way or the Highway!

 

Thanks for voicing what I have only resented but never so perfectly articulated.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 01:40 PM

69. K & R!

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Mon Feb 29, 2016, 02:00 PM

70. You're Welcome, vulgarpoet!

Now maybe if you would coax some of those HUGE Bernie crowds out to vote like we're doing for Hillary, this might become more of a contest!!!

Suggestion: Offer them free Ben and Jerry's ice cream!

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Response to VulgarPoet (Original post)

Thu Mar 10, 2016, 09:58 AM

72. Maybe this is what Hillary was laughing about last night?

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