The Problem With Free College

[kennetha]

Free college sounds terrific. Bernie Sanders has made it a central theme of his campaign. It was once the norm at our best public universities. They still do it in Germany and other European countries. Why not make American great again by eliminating increasingly burdensome tuition and other fees?

There are a number of arguments against free college. Among other concerns, it would subsidize families that can afford to pay and threaten institutional diversity. Perhaps the most serious problem, though, is that Americans don’t actually want the kind of stripped-down higher education that could be provided at public expense.

The Problem With Free College

Not everything they do in Europe is better than the way we do it in America. Europe is a fine place, but Bernie overdoes it with the Europe-envy.

[revbones]

1. So we should just go with America is #1

and not think there might be ways to improve it?

[Orsino]

3. YOU EFF AY! YOO EFF AY! n/t

[Buzz Clik]

102. If A and B then Ostrich.

Awesome.

[Bjornsdotter]

2. Calling all the Swedish Universities

....to tell them they are doing it all wrong!

[Recursion]

118. Swedish students graduate with as much debt as American students

http://qz.com/85017/college-in-sweden-is-free-but-students-still-have-a-ton-of-debt-how-can-that-be/

Swedish colleges and universities are free. Yep. Totally free.

But students there still end up with a lot of debt. The average at the beginning of 2013 was roughly 124,000 Swedish krona ($19,000). Sure, the average US student was carrying about 30% more, at $24,800.

But remember: Free. College in Sweden is free. That’s not even all that common in Europe anymore. While the costs of education are far lower than in the US, over the past two decades sometimes-hefty fees have become a fact of life for many European students. Britain got them in 1998. Some German states instituted them after a federal ban on student fees was overturned in the courts. In fact, since 1995 more than half of the 25 OECD countries with available data on higher education have overhauled their college tuition policies at public institions, with many adding or raising fees.

And yet, students in Germany and the UK have far lower debts than in Sweden. And 85% of Swedish students graduate with debt, versus only 50% in the US. Worst of all, new Swedish graduates have the highest debt-to-income ratios of any group of students in the developed world (according to estimates of what they’re expected to earn once they get out of school)—somewhere in the neighborhood of 80%. The US, where we’re constantly being told that student debt is hitting crisis proportions, the average is more like 60%. Why?

[Sivart]

4. Does anyone

Does anyone consider free high school education at public schools a subsidy to the rich?

because this would be exactly like that.

And I personally have never ever ever heard anyone suggest that free public high school is a subsidy to the rich.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

27. Logic Bomb! Logic Bomb!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

66. the rich do not go to public schools

most do not go to public colleges

[dsc]

94. High schools don't have admissions requirements

which favor the wealthy and upper middle class, colleges and universities do. that is the difference.

[immoderate]

5. Free college may pose some problems. But, it's worth it!

--imm

[Betty Karlson]

6. All together now: "NO WE CAN'T!"

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

29. You need to be more incremental with your replies to camp weathervain.

[HassleCat]

64. Defintely

You start by taking a poll to measure public lack of support. Once you see a negative number, you express doubts. Then you cite the difficulties of pushing a progressive policy in the current political climate. Then you get some of your friends to portray proponents of progressive policies as not really progressive. Throw in some stuff about "progress" being the root word of "progressive." By using a little patience, not moving too fast, confusing people on exactly where you stand, issuing vague statements of support or opposition etc. you will eventually get there, and stand triumphantly before an adoring public and proclaim, "No! We can't!"

[Betty Karlson]

111. That was some amazing sarcasm. Thanks for lightening the mood.

[Bjornsdotter]

101. Adding

....."And we can't try!"

[Betty Karlson]

112. Trying things? Without a spine? What are you? A millennial?

We haven't had a spine ever since Bill Clinton ripped it out of our party! Don't you young people ever suggest such a thing again!

[Bjornsdotter]

113. Boomer here!

#BoomersForBernie


Although I am the Mom of two millennials....both for Bernie!

[Betty Karlson]

115. Millennial here:

glad to have you on our side. I really think that Medicare for all will help the emancipation of women, as it will nurture a greater level of fonancial independence for low-income women like single mothers. And tat will benefit all of society.

[Mika]

7. How does free school threaten institional diversity?

[kennetha]

12. Well, just think about it for a moment

Think about the American University and College landscape, which is populated with a vastly greater array of institutions of higher learning than anywhere in Europe.

Think about how making just one element of that landscape tuition free -- state colleges and only for in state students -- would alter the market place for education.

Small, private liberal art colleges, especially the less well endowed ones, are already struggling to attract students, are already under severe financial stress. Making public colleges free (to in state students) would make it very, very hard for them. Many would close down. Many are already heading in that direction.


Think just about students going out of state to public colleges in other states. Bernie's plan, only makes tuition free for in state students not out of state students.

Some states, with relatively sparse student populations, partly because of the massive demographic changes in America over many decades, have more spaces in their schools than they can fill with in state students. Some have fewer spaces that they can fill with in state students. Bernies's plan would cause massive disruptions in the flow of students across state lines. In California, many of the schools in especially the Cal State system (as opposed to the UC system) are "impacted." meaning that they cannot accept all qualified students. competition for places in the Cal State system is so severe that many campuses up their admission requirements either for the school as a whole of for particular majors. Some campuses refuse to even consider applicants from outside what is called their "local service area."

Think of what making tuition free would do to demand for already scarce places in the Cal State system (in which tuition is practically free already -- I mean we are talking dirt cheap compared to either UC's or to any private institution.)


And it goes on and on. Bernie doesn't really have plans, he has good sounding slogans. Nothing more.

[kristopher]

24. ROFL... Your explanation reveals a deep well of cluelessness.

If you prefer an aristocracy to a meritocracy then just admit what you want.

[kennetha]

28. huh?

you lost me at aristocracy.

Typical Sanders stuff, though, all reaction, no thought.

[elehhhhna]

32. the rich kids would need the grades to compete for those spots

Cant have that. How would the Bush progeny get into university?!!

[PaulaFarrell]

55. your post makes no sense

First I really don't care about private colleges. If they go bust I couldn't really care.

I would say the vast majority of students not on scholarship go to state schools. so i dont even know what you're on about with this 'massive disruption'. If states have over/under capacity that's for them to deal with. It's irrelevant. Btw there are plenty of older people who jump at the chance to get a degree if they could afford it.

[Eric J in MN]

8. In the 1960s, the University of California had free tuition.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2016/feb/09/bernie-s/was-college-once-free-united-states-and-it-oversea/

[Cleita]

16. They did and I benefitted from it.

It was paid for with property taxes and guess who paid the most? Rich people. So I think their children should be able to partake in the program as well.

I get so tired of these worn out and erroneous right wing talking points.

[Eric J in MN]

19. Cool. NT

NT

[DrDan]

44. were only 2-year community colleges free - or all state universities and colleges?

[Cleita]

59. All of them were tuition free.

We still had to buy books and pay lab fees as well as living expenses. Boys, who had done their military service got money to live off of with the GI bill. The rest of us supported ourselves with part time minimum wage jobs, but then minimum wage was a living wage and with a lot of belt tightening one could work one's way through college if family couldn't help out.

[DrDan]

63. thanks - I thought it was just the CC's

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. As has been pointed out many times:

Mr. and Mrs. Lottabucks aren't going to send their precious snowflakes Chad and Muffy to Cornhole State U., where they might be forced to rub shoulders with the unwashed children of those people. Even if Chad and Muffy are as dumb as stumps and have been kicked out of their prestigious prep schools for cooking meth in their rooms or pantsing the headmaster, they will be legacy admittees to their parents' Ivy League colleges like GWB, where they will spend their college careers, as long as they last, cutting their gut classes, vomiting drunkenly in their fraternity/sorority house living rooms, and fucking like mink behind the polo stables. But they will have the benefit of the associations and connections that they can't get at Cornhole State - so they can eventually become hedge fund managers like Daddy or society belles like Mumsy. That's why Daddy will fork over $50K a year for his spawn's "education," which will be minimal; but the connections are priceless.

And why is it assumed that the public universities' education will be watered down and inferior just because the masses can go there free? Europe has first-rate universities, and they're free. Or is it just that we have to assume that those people will drag the quality down? That's not a very progressive attitude, is it?

[kennetha]

17. You are so ill-informed, it's amazing.

First the private university/college landscape includes MUCH MUCH more than just the Ivy leagues.

Second 1/3 of all college students are enrolled in a private university.

Third lots of those private universities are struggling. Many will likely close their doors in the next few years. Sanders asinine proposals will only accelerate that trend.

Fourth even at elite private universities, many, many students who don't come from privileged backgrounds attend, thanks to generous financial aid.

Fifth, many well to do kids -- tons of them -- attend state universities throughout the country, especially the Berkley's, UCLA's, Michigan's, UNC Chapel Hills of the world.


Sixth, Universities throughout Europe, taken on average, don't hold a candle to US universities.

Look at any international ranking of universities, and you will find that American Universities -- both private and public -- dominate the rankings.


I could go on. Basically, you have no idea what you are talking about, though.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

71. LOL. I went to a highly-rated private college, not Ivy League.

It was years ago, and was then relatively affordable, but its tuition is now $45K a year. I was not wealthy and neither were many of my classmates, but I'm wondering how many of the students attending now will graduate with crushing student loan debts - a problem I did not have. That college is not struggling, however, but is still getting along quite nicely. Many private colleges, like that one, have endowments that help keep them going. Since I now teach at a public university and have been on the "inside" of funding issues, I actually do know what I'm talking about. At least the university where I teach (and the college I attended) doesn't have a bloated sports program that requires multi-million-dollar coaches and facilities. Get rid of that nonsense and there will be a lot more money available for actual education.

You do not even mention the biggest problem at all: student loans. One major reason for providing free college is so young people won't start out deeply in debt, unable to afford homes or start families. When the student loan bubble finally bursts we will have another financial crisis on our hands.

In any event, if some poorly-managed colleges don't survive, well, that's the much-loved free market, isn't it?

You're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about.

[GreatGazoo]

10. tuition free public colleges, not ALL colleges and not entirely free, and not a "problem"

Look who values college the most -- those most likely to be discriminated against in the workforce:

[Cleita]

11. "Subsidizing families that can afford to pay."

Every means testing argument falls apart when you consider that they are paying...in taxes. Therefore they should be able to partake in the program they pay for. I was privileged to get free tuition in California and my parents paid for it in property taxes.

Also many children of well off families didn't meet the requirements to attend those institutions so attended private colleges with lower standards that their parents paid for.

So you see leveling the playing field does not mean subsidizing rich kids.

[angrychair]

13. This is worthless click-bait trash

The article synopsis is:
American students are vain, immature crybabies that need catered meals and sports teams to distract them.

[Vinca]

14. Heaven forbid we have an educated population.

And it's so much better for young people to learn responsibility early in life. Who doesn't learn a lesson after acquiring a 6 figure debt for the crime of getting an education?

[Mufaddal]

15. When did this site become Republican Underground?

"The Problem With Free College"

Yikes.

Looking forward to: "The Problem With Social Security," "The Problem With Medicare," "The Problem With Food Stamps," "The Problem With Unions," "The Problem With Teachers," and "The Problem With The Minimum Wage & Weekends."

[Cleita]

18. I was wondering that myself. eom

[elehhhhna]

34. every time hrc runs for resident

so far

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

45. More like Third-Way underground...

The sentiment is the same overall, but the PTB will look the other way as long as it furthers the rightward shift of party primcipal.

[Mufaddal]

53. "More like Third-Way underground..." Same difference. nt

[HughBeaumont]

70. "Looking forward to"??

Trust me . . . over in GD, there have been missives along those lines.

More than a couple of posters have flat out said Medicare For All is a non-starter in America due to the supposed heavy taxation used to fund it. Never mind other countries are completely able to do it and have been doing it for nearly half to 3/4 of a century with no issue.

I agree with this post. The Turd Way is invading, and it's an hour past annoying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Oh we alrady have seen the problem with unioms

and the problem with teachers, (Just ask Madfloridian, she will regale you). the problem with the minimum wage, and food stamps.

Medicate and social security are still kind of off, and the weekend is near I suspect.

[kiva]

20. Hmmm, let's look at the things that would be 'stripped out'

Sports - I have no problem with this and if the institutions are tax supported, universities won't need the money provided by athletics (assuming there is some). Let pro sports set up lower divisions, like baseball already does, to use as a talent pool. Bonus will be that professors will no longer be pressured to pass athletes or create faux courses to get them through to a degree (see Chapel Hill).

Dorms - Dorms are overpriced babysitting services aimed at socializing students...I suspect private property management companies with housing near campuses would step up for students/parents who wanted this sort of living situations. Dorms wouldn't magically disappear from campuses.

Elaborate food and other amenities - Really?

Subsidized clubs and extracurricular activities - Students and colleges can consider if these activities are worth it to students, and if so a small student fee could be imposed.

Academic remediation - Community colleges already provide a lot of the remedial education, and I think that could continue. It's in the best interest of our society to have people who can read, write, and think at minimally a high school graduate level...and public schools may shift their degree requirements for college-bound students.

Flexibility in majors - This will be where money will still make a difference - wealthy families can send their children to private schools to pursue whatever major they prefer.

In short, changing this system would mean that students would have fewer choices, but the trade-off would be that they would graduate with no, or very little, student debt. The government wouldn't have to subsidize loans. Parents would no longer have to trade off retirement security for providing education for their children.

Private colleges and universities would still exist and have football teams and all of the amenities and families who could afford to, or who could get scholarships, could still attend and the other 90+ percent would have a good education without crippling debt.

[kennetha]

21. Try selling this trade offs on the campaign trail

See how far you get with that.

Sanders pretends it's all a free lunch, all upside, no downside. Utterly dishonest pandering.

[djean111]

57. I looked up "dishonest pandering" and it was not Bernie's picture I found.

If your mission here is to convince and/or dishearten Bernie's supporters, you will fail.
We look stuff up. We think for ourselves. We don't confuse verbose OPs with actual facts. Your OP is just your opinion, that's all it is.

[kiva]

81. Really?

Ask millennials if they would rather have a football team or a debt-free degree. Ask their parents if they would rather take out a second mortgage so their son or daughter lives in an overpriced dorm, or if they would rather help their child find an apartment and keep an affordable house payment.

Of course, that assumes you are serious and not just leaving a bridge unguarded.

[kennetha]

84. false dichotomy

American higher education is diverse and multi-faceted. Educates a ton of students.

Nobody has to take out a crushing burden of debt, for example, to go to Cal State University.

You are painting with way too broad a brush.

[kiva]

89. Uh-huh.

Check out the Cal State tuition and fees and get back to me.

[kennetha]

91. here.

All students enrolling at the CSU pay the systemwide Tuition Fee which is currently $5,472 per academic year for undergraduate students enrolling in more than 6 units per term and $3,174 for undergraduates enrolling in 6 or fewer units. The 2015-16 Tuition Fee for students enrolled in postbaccalaureate teacher preparations programs for a Multiple Subject, Single Subject, or Special Education credential is $6,348 for students enrolled in more than 6 units and $3,684 for students taking 6 units or less. Students enrolled in graduate programs and other postbaccalaureate students pay a Tuition Fee of $6,738 for more than 6 units and $3,906 for those enrolling in 6 or fewer units. Each campus also has mandatory fees that all students must pay. These fees vary by campus. The fee information in this section reflects the combined total of systemwide and campus fees for undergraduates.

What's your point?

[demosocialist]

22. the "American Conservative" great source

Pat Buchanan has a lot of OPs on the the link if you would like to peruse...

[kennetha]

23. A good argument is a good argument

no matter the source.

Try addressing the argument.

Betcha can't do that. Bet you won't even try.

[demosocialist]

25. I know your trying to flamebait...

Im on the DU for a reason... Ill go to free republic if I want to discuss "conservative"talking point

bye bye

[kennetha]

26. It's not a matter of talking points

it's a matter of thinking things through rather than just reacting.

[demosocialist]

30. condescend much

your thinking is superior to mine my friend... im done ill let you have the last word.

[kennetha]

31. only to those who deserve it

[arcane1]

38. You're just posting someone else's words. Some "thinker"!

[kennetha]

60. For my original thoughts

check this out.

See if that convinces you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511224269

[arcane1]

65. Nope, I see right through you.

[islandmkl]

86. hey...maybe the thought was "I'll cut and paste this...that counts as thinking on the matter."

unless you cut and paste what is, at best, semi-bullshit...

[kcr]

33. Lots of good arguments right in this thread

That I haven't seen you address. You're just flat out disregarding them because bias is a hell of a thing.

[elehhhhna]

36. paid shill

[arcane1]

35. Posting from "The American Conservative" and hiding the link? WTF is your problem??

Get this shit off DU!

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

52. Just like hiding transcripts.

Know them by their works.

[arcane1]

61. Liars gotta lie, shills gotta shill n/t

[Arazi]

37. Is this your 6th or 7th OP with this exact same material? I'm losing track

Just check those other OPs where this was thoroughly debunked over and over and over...

[demmiblue]

39. Unrec for source (also, please don't hide your links). n/t

[arcane1]

40. They are deliberately, dishonestly hiding links in order to post rightwing bullshit.

I can't wait until the tombstone comes.

[panader0]

41. Check it out: Notice the difference in Education and Military spending.

There are more than enough funds to pay for public college education. Note that Social Security is 100%
funded. Make the rich pay their fair share of taxes and there would be billions more to work with.
Education is essential. The US used to be one of the most highly educated countries in the world.
We are way down the list now, being passed by countries who know the value of an educated populace.


?1397620572

[whatchamacallit]

42. "You folks don't want an education if it means giving freebies to the rich do you?"

"It's better you deny yourselves than let that happen."

Sincerely,
Rich people looking out for your interests

[HassleCat]

43. Are you serious?

Stripped down higher education? Have you attended a college or university lately? That's the problem with offering free college to all, the fact that we offer too many meaningless degrees and easy classes. The problem with Bernie's proposal related to the old Tragedy of the Commons, where a public resource is open to unregulated exploitation for private gain. His basic proposal is good, but it needs to be narrowed down a little. Countries that offer free college do not admit all applicants, and they don't allow 17 million students to major in Fourteenth Century Earthworm Masturbation.

On edit: Pretty much everything in Europe is better than the way we do it in the US. If you look around at the various European nations, you will find one or two that do better than we do in education, health care, quality of life, etc. Of course, you have to have an open mind and not focus on winning votes by parroting "'Murca Nummer One!"

[arcane1]

49. Of course they aren't serious, they're a right-wing shill n/t

[xocet]

109. Of course, 14th c. E.M. was a deadend due to the scholastics' reliance on Aristotelian dogmas and...

the classical idea (Platonic ideal) of the shovel. It was not until an 18th century, post-Newtoniam, mechanistic theory of the shovel truly liberated the natural philosophers of the day to pursue empirical studies of earthworm development and reproductive habits - thereby reducing 14th c. earthworm masturbation to a topic of only historical interest.







(Just kidding around - for the sake of levity and sanity. I cannot believe that there are Democrats who are against education as a right.)


No earthworms were harmed in the conceptualization of this posting.

[kennetha]

46. A ranking of World Universities -- there are many such, all about the same:

The American University System Rocks. We don't need to emulate Europe!

It is diverse and wide ranging it's offerings, educates many more students than the Europeans, in a much more diverse number of ways, offering many more paths forward.

Drop it with the Europe-envy, when it comes to our University system.



Academic Ranking of World Universities (500) – Top 50[24][Note 2]
Institution 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
United StatesHarvard University 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
United StatesStanford University 2 2 3 3 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 2 2
United StatesMassachusetts Institute of Technology 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 4 3 3
United StatesUniversity of California, Berkeley 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 4 4 3 4 4
United KingdomUniversity of Cambridge 5 3 2 2 4 4 4 5 5 5 5 5 5
United StatesPrinceton University 7 7 8 8 8 8 8 7 7 7 7 6 6
United StatesCalifornia Institute of Technology 3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 7 7
United StatesColumbia University 10 9 7 7 7 7 7 8 8 8 8 8 8
United StatesUniversity of Chicago 11 10 9 8 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
United KingdomUniversity of Oxford 9 8 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 9 10
United StatesYale University 8 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11
United StatesUniversity of California, Los Angeles 15 16 14 14 13 13 13 13 12 12 12 12 12
United StatesCornell University 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 13 13 13 13 13
United StatesUniversity of California, San Diego 14 13 13 13 14 14 14 14 15 15 14 14 14
United StatesUniversity of Washington 16 20 17 17 16 16 16 16 16 16 16 15 15
United StatesJohns Hopkins University 24 22 19 20 19 20 19 18 18 17 17 17 16
United StatesUniversity of Pennsylvania 18 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 14 14 15 16 17
United KingdomUniversity College London 20 25 26 26 25 22 21 21 20 21 21 20 18
United StatesUniversity of California, San Francisco 13 17 18 18 18 18 18 18 17 18 18 18 18
SwitzerlandSwiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich 25 27 27 27 27 24 23 23 23 23 20 19 20
JapanUniversity of Tokyo 19 14 20 19 20 19 20 20 21 20 21 21 21
United StatesUniversity of Michigan 21 19 21 21 21 21 22 22 22 22 23 22 22
United KingdomImperial College London 17 23 23 23 23 27 26 26 24 24 24 22 23
United StatesUniversity of Wisconsin - Madison 27 18 16 16 17 17 17 17 19 19 19 24 24
CanadaUniversity of Toronto 23 24 24 24 23 24 27 27 26 27 28 24 25
JapanKyoto University 30 21 22 22 22 23 24 24 27 26 26 26 26
United StatesNew York University 55 32 29 29 30 31 32 31 29 27 27 27 27
United StatesNorthwestern University 29 30 31 33 29 30 30 29 30 30 30 28 28
United StatesUniversity of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 45 25 25 25 26 26 25 25 25 25 25 28 29
United StatesUniversity of Minnesota 37 33 32 32 33 28 28 28 28 29 29 30 30
United StatesDuke University 32 31 32 31 32 32 31 35 35 36 31 31 31
United StatesWashington University in St. Louis 22 28 28 28 28 29 29 30 31 31 32 32 32
United StatesRockefeller University 28 29 30 30 30 32 32 34 33 32 34 33 33
United StatesUniversity of Colorado at Boulder 31 34 35 34 34 34 34 32 32 33 33 34 34
DenmarkUniversity of Copenhagen 65 59 57 56 46 45 43 40 43 44 42 39 35
FrancePierre and Marie Curie University 65 41 46 45 39 42 40 39 41 42 37 35 36
United StatesThe University of Texas at Austin 47 40 36 39 38 39 38 38 35 35 36 39 37
United StatesUniversity of California, Santa Barbara 26 35 34 35 35 36 35 32 33 34 35 41 38
United StatesUniversity of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 52 56 55 59 58 38 39 41 42 41 43 36 39
CanadaUniversity of British Columbia 35 36 37 36 36 35 36 36 37 39 40 37 40
United KingdomUniversity of Manchester 89 78 53 50 48 40 41 44 38 40 41 38 41
FranceUniversity of Paris-Sud 72 48 61 64 52 49 43 45 40 37 39 42 41
United StatesUniversity of Maryland, College Park 75 57 47 37 37 37 37 36 38 38 38 43 43
AustraliaUniversity of Melbourne 92 82 82 78 79 73 75 62 60 57 54 44 44
United StatesUniversity of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas 34 36 38 38 39 41 48 49 51 48 46 45 44
GermanyHeidelberg University 58 64 71 66 65 67 63 63 62 62 54 49 46
United KingdomUniversity of Edinburgh 43 47 47 52 53 55 53 54 53 51 51 45 47
SwedenKarolinska Institutet 39 46 45 48 53 51 50 42 44 42 44 47 48
United StatesUniversity of Southern California 40 48 50 47 50 50 46 46 46 46 47 51 49
United StatesUniversity of California, Irvine 44 55 47 44 45 46 46 46 48 45 45 47 50

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

56. Link?

[kennetha]

69. There are many such

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2015#sorting=rank+region=+country=+faculty=+stars=false+search=

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings

http://www.shanghairanking.com

[islandmkl]

92. one of the links is the 'TOP 750 Universities in the World' rankings...

out of how many total institutions of higher learning...even just in the USA?

Put the standard for your argument as high as you can and ignore a great base of data...

Wouldn't want any Americans to go to a free college if it wasn't ranked in the very best in the world, now would we?

Elitist bullshit just never smells itself...

"Fuck it, kid...we'll let you get through high school, but then you're on your own...take out a loan...participate in some huge debt economy...

you should have been born in one of those countries that values education..."

[kennetha]

93. Whatever are you talking about?

[Contrary1]

110. Nice list...how many are public?

[kennetha]

114. 16 out of the top 50 are US Public U

[Impedimentus]

47. Caught a lot of red herrings I see

Which Clinton pond did you go fishing in?

[Cleita]

68. So many, I could set up a smorgasbord. I think the pond wasn't Clinton but

The Heritage Foundation.

[Lizzie Poppet]

48. Free eduction works pretty damn well for K-12. Making it K-16 isn't that big a stretch.

Yes, Europe happens to contain educational systems we'd do well to take a long, hard look at (Finland, anyone?), but the best argument for it is within our own borders: public education works.

[Svafa]

105. Yes. Finland has absolutely nailed it.

[actslikeacarrot]

50. So is this just good old fashioned America bashing...

...or just millenial generational bashing?

Quote: "On the contrary, they’re excellent for academically prepared, emotionally mature students. But relatively few American students would flourish on the same terms." yes, we get it. America sux German students smart America students stupid! Vote for me!

[Kip Humphrey]

51. All those rich people will stop attending their private colleges, no doubt about it!

So tell me how far do you take this? How about we eliminate free high school? Or maybe 12th grade, it can be such a waste anyway.

This article entirely misses the argument with its false memes. The argument Bernie puts forward is that while a 1 thru 12 free education was sufficient for our society and economy at one time, in today's world, it is insufficient to prepare our workforce for the modern workplace. This is simply common sense and the right thing to do to invest in our future. But then there are always those self-serving naysayers and if-it-was-good-enough-for-me idiots.

[kennetha]

54. Do you realize that

America provides much more open access to higher education, through a much more diverse sets of pathways, than any country in Europe, don't you?

[Kip Humphrey]

75. You are the only one talking of tearing down American higher education & rebuilding it to suit

Germans. Furthermore, while providing "more open access", our current system is creating a generation of indentured servants of our students. That's some diversity, no?

I do understand that conservatives in this country have been devoted to tombstoning our 1-12 public education system, and are indeed having good success doing so with the help of 3rd-Way Republicrats. Bernie's plan reverses that and expands tuition subsidies from 1-12 to include PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES & COLLEGES 4-year programs.

[kennetha]

77. Bernie's plan is asinine.

Sorry, find me anybody who cares about higher education and making it work and accessible to more people and less crushingly costly who endorses it.

It's just a reflex, poorly thought through. It's a pose that has no chance of happening. He knows that. But it's just for the campaign.

[Kip Humphrey]

79. False. Have a nice day.

[Svafa]

58. Not sure I'm going to take anything from The American Conservative seriously. nt

[kennetha]

62. consider the argument

not the source.

[Svafa]

98. In the third sentence, they mention free college in "Germany and other European countries,"

yet their argument solely uses Germany as an example. I wonder why that is. Could it be that other European countries with free college don't have the same issues with their higher ed systems as Germany? Could there perhaps be some extenuating circumstances that make Germany's--but not other European countries'--public college system flawed? This is the kind of cherry picking I expect from right-wing rags, and it is the very reason that I am always skeptical of something coming from a source like The American Conservative.

[kennetha]

99. nah

it's pretty much the same all over Europe.

[cyberswede]

67. "The American Conservative" - ugh

[xocet]

72. Since when is "The American Conservative" a reasonable source?

And, from the article, this is what you want to preserve? (By the way, the list is not wholly accurate.)

Sports. (There are sports fields and the opportunity to play for recreation.)

Dorms. (Instead of dormitories, there are university apartments.)

Elaborate food and other amenities. (The universities do have cafeterias.)

Subsidized clubs and extracurricular activities. (There are clubs.)

Academic remediation. (Academic track students are better prepared in Germany. There are problem sessions for courses.)

Flexibility in majors. (German universities get to the point of the degree - the initial degree earned is higher level that the corresponding undergraduate US degree.)

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-problem-with-free-college/

The article complains that the German model of the university system will not likely meet "what Americans are encouraged to expect by the higher ed marketing industry."

Is this really what you think is important?

How about making an intellectual commitment to a body of material and attempting to learn it as thoroughly and completely as possible, so as to hope to make progress in that chosen field for the good of the human race and the planet? Or is that just an impractical goal?

It is surreal to watch Democrats argue against the possibility of education for all.

Here is a description of the German university system:

http://www.eui.eu/ProgrammesAndFellowships/AcademicCareersObservatory/AcademicCareersbyCountry/Germany.aspx

German university students are also granted stipends so that they can spend their time studying:

Das BAföG

...

Eine gute Ausbildung ist heute wichtiger als je zuvor. Das gilt für den Einzelnen wie für unsere Gesellschaft insgesamt. Wissen und die Anwendung von Wissen sind das größte Potenzial, das wir in Deutschland haben. Das Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz (BAföG) ist ein Garant dafür, dass Jugendliche und junge Erwachsene eine ihrer Eignung und Neigung entsprechende Ausbildung absolvieren können – auch unabhängig davon, ob die finanzielle Situation ihrer Familie diese Ausbildung zulässt oder nicht.

...

www.bafög.de

Here is a rough translation of the above paragraph:

Today, a good education is more important than ever before. That is true for both the individual and our society as a whole. Knowledge and the application of knowledge are the greatest potential that Germany has. The National Educational Advancement Law is a guarantee that youth and young adults may complete an education corresponding with their aptitudes and inclinations - independent of whether their families' financial situations would allow for this education.

The position that you apparently and Sec. Clinton support sells the students of the USA quite short. You should reconsider.

[kennetha]

82. Even though German education is free, if you qualify

we actually provide MUCH greater access to it, by a wider variety of means, than any nation in the world. Our universities are the envy of the world, and the open places to all comers somewhere.

[xocet]

88. Are you kidding? Did you even read anything that was posted? You are selling the USA short.... n/t

[rurallib]

73. next thread "Why Social Security should be means tested"

same concept.
Then SS becomes a welfare program
Understand some folks are ok with that also

So what if some rich folks decide to go slumming and go to a free college instead of paying for a Harvard or Yale. Us in the unwashed masses may have a chance we don't have now. That's the idea.

Those conservative arguments - yuck.

[ladjf]

74. This is a meaningless argument. Who said that the education would be "stripped" down?

[bemildred]

76. There are no good arguments against free education for anybody that wants it.

As far as they want to go.

It's not like there are a lot of good secure, well-paying jobs out there.

[jillan]

78. Noooooooo We Can't!

[Android3.14]

80. That is, bar none, the stupidest argument against free college that I've read

"Americans don’t actually want the kind of stripped-down higher education that could be provided at public expense."

They'd rather have nothing, right?

Stupidest argument ever.

[kennetha]

83. Rather have nothing?

Americans go to college in droves, to a wide variety of them, with a higher quality of education, than is offered just about anywhere in the world.

You're engaging in a false dichotomy.

[Android3.14]

85. I'm 51 and still paying my college loans. My sons are having to do the same

Screw your false dichotomy.

[Duppers]

87. Taxpayers give big BANKS $83 Billion a Year!

Bernie's plan to cover state tuition is less at $75 billion.

LOOK IT UP!


Of course, I don't really expect a Hillary supporter to look up anything to do with banks or Bernie's plans.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

90. We should stop building highways because luxury cars will drive on them!!

[alarimer]

95. Wait. Didn't Obama propose free tuition at 2-year colleges?

Would you be in favor of that, but not free 4-year college?

Hypocrites. We have the money to do this; but "no, we can't." This is a stupid article, full of nonsense. Stripped-down? Like European educations are stripped-down? What a pantload.

[kennetha]

96. 2 year colleges are a vastly different landscape

practically free already here in California, serving mostly the non-advantaged.

[Bluenorthwest]

123. No, not different and to be blunt with you all public colleges serve the non advantaged, those with

financial, intellectual or familial advantages go to sniffy private Universities which are often not even in the US, such as Bill Clinton at Oxford. That's advantaged. Going to Cal State is going to Cal State.

[Freelancer]

97. IMO, college is no longer about the pursuit of knowledge. It's about success.

College is about vetting people and culling. Employers know that a person that has spent a fortune on school is invested in the pursuit of success and have proven themselves to be adept. It's also about wages. Viewed through the lens of cost/value dynamics, a Harvard degree must be worth a massive amount since it costs a massive amount. By this reckoning, Colleges are incentivized to make degrees as expensive as they can. If state college becomes free, it will make those college degrees nearly worthless -- akin to community college degrees that have long been the object of open and, for the most part, undeserved derision.

I'm not saying it's right.

[xocet]

100. This poster does not even know about Reagan's destruction of the UC system...

kennetha (2,210 posts)
14. And the reason California doesn't have free tuition now is because .....

Oh, I know, Sanders answer to everything explains it.....


roll drum

bang gong

speak really loud....


"The Billionaire Class" and the "rigged" economy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1224729

[AzDar]

103. That unpleasant sound you hear is a Hillary loyalist scraping the bottom of the barrel...

[SheilaT]

104. Free college was NEVER the norm, and I wish people would stop saying that.

For a couple of decades in California it was so, and perhaps at a few public institutions in some other states. Through the 1960's or so many public universities were highly affordable, which they are not these days. But not all. In 1960 my brother chose to attend New Mexico State University instead of any of the public universities in New York State where we lived even though he had a Regents scholarship, because NMSU was a lot less expensive, even with out of state tuition.

Five years later we were living in Arizona, and when I attended the University of Arizona I met quite a few east coast kids who were there for the same reason: less expensive than at home.

Higher education should be a lot less expensive than it is, but over the years the states have funded their colleges and universities less and less, putting more and more of the cost on the students. Then there's the whole student loan racket, which is often predatory lending, coupled with students not being fully informed about the actual job prospects of a particular major. Go ahead and major in whatever fascinating subject you want to, but never lose sight of the fact that you're going to have to earn a living at the end of four years.

[one_voice]

106. About your source..

The American Conservative (TAC) is a bi-monthly journal of opinion published by the American Ideas Institute. It reflects traditional American conservatism that has argued vigorously against American interventionism, against a debt-based fiscal policy used to finance adventurism abroad and government growth at home, and against the intrusions on Americans’ private lives by state security apparatus. In general, TAC represents an anti-war and paleoconservative voice against the dominance of what it sees as a neoconservative strain on the Right. In 2009 Reihan Salam wrote that the publication had "gained a devoted following as a sharp critic of the conservative mainstream."[2]

The magazine's stated editorial position is "that true conservatism has a predisposition for the institutions and mores that exist and the wisdom that underlies them. So much of what passes for contemporary conservatism is wedded to a kind of radicalism—fantasies of global hegemony, the hubristic notion of America as a universal nation for all the world's peoples, economic theories that are utopian and ruinous, and an eagerness to substitute diatribe for debate. We believe in the conservatism of our forefathers: prudent, adaptive, humble, and grateful."[3]

In 2002 The American Conservative was founded by Scott McConnell, Patrick Buchanan, and Taki Theodoracopulos in opposition to the Iraq War.

Pat Buchanan? Why in the world would you cite that lunatics site? This is a Democratic site? Who cares what those nutballs think.

I always thought these sources were unacceptable here.

[kennetha]

107. the source doesn't matter to me

as much as the arguments. A good argument is a good argument wherever it comes from. Even if my worst enemy makes a compelling argument, I will pay attention and address the argument, despite the fact that he is my worst enemy.

[one_voice]

108. I would agree, however,

during primary time if it's coming from a conservative it's dishonest and twisted, that's a given. Your enemy wants to win, by any means necessary, including lying. Which is what's happening here. Don't use their lies to build up your candidate.

[Recursion]

117. They gave their best foreign policy grade to Sanders. Was that dishonest and twisted?

Seriously, have you ever even read that website? Avoid Dreher and Buchanan, but the rest of the people are interesting.

[Recursion]

116. TAC is cited here a lot as a contrarian conservative voice against neoconservatism

Just the other day I posted the fact that they gave Sanders the highest rating of all the candidates on foreign policy.

There is nothing wrong with citing a source on DU that is conservative.

[jpgray]

120. Which of the arguments in the article could not be applied to K-12?

Or would an individual tuition model be best there as well, in your view? If not, what do you see as the substantive differences? What evidence do you have for an education quality gap between ourselves and Europe?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

121. But Bill just said Hillary *wants* free college:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017335805#post2

The weathervane flipped around again, I guess.

[quaker bill]

122. really bad argument

There is nothing about accumulating masses of private debt that makes universities better. Government can afford anything it collects the taxes for. We can afford our system. How do I know this? Because it is there and we do afford it every year. Some people go into debt, others don't. But we "afford" it because it happens and all the bills get paid.

The only question is, how do we want to pay? I think taxes and spending will be vastly more equitable.