Why I can understand the reason some good Democrats will never vote for Hillary

[Joe the Revelator]

Her campaign took a man who says things like this:

https://www.facebook.com/matt.orfalea/videos/573531243079/


and made her supporters believe he was a racist. A one issue candiate. A delusional dreamer. A sexist. An evil, bad, non-democrat. Democrat, whatever that even means anymore, because if a man like this isn't a progressive, I don't know one politician that is.

[dchill]

1. Oh yeah. That's my candidate!

[UMTerp01]

2. So those who vote Hillary are bad Democrats?

I'm undecided between Bernie and Hillary. I wish there was another option quite frankly. There are things I like and don't like about Hillary. There are things I like and don't like about Bernie. Its troubling to me that his support among Black voters is so low, which tells me it has more to do with whatever he is not doing than what someone else is putting out there about him. I do not like the attitude from many Bernie supporters toward voters, particularly Black voters that we are wrong for not supporting him. I mean I've talked to many people who actually said that its Bernie supporters who make it hard for them to support him because its that idea of White liberalism that just wants Blacks to tow the line, and because we aren't, there's something "wrong" with the fact that so many Blacks support Hillary.

I don't know. My state doesn't vote until late April. By then the race will pretty much be over. I have absolutely no idea who I'm going to vote for. Like 2008, I was for Clinton until I went Obama. This cycle, I was all for Clinton but am now undecided, which means that Bernie's message is resonating with me, but I'm not yet ready to go to him. I think that the divisions I've seen on Facebook and Twitter are pretty bad. 2008 was worse with a lot of Hillary supporters and their racial overtones toward Obama, but now I'm seeing it from some Bernie supporters toward Black Hillary supporters and thats not going to be a way to increase Bernie's Black support. Hopefully whoever is the nominee we can all get around and support because I won't be sitting out the election and I will support whomever is the Democratic nominee.

People with certain privileges can say "Oh I'll just sit it out or I'll never vote such and such" For other people, we don't have the luxury of that and certainly don't want a Trump Presidency so I wish all this back and forth would just stop. Sure...fine...distinguish the differences between the candidates but this absolute hate toward Hillary and the similar nonsense that Bernie is delusional is not helping anyone. I know its part of the primary process but in the end I hope that emotions settle and we can keep the White House out of Republican hands. All 3 branches are at stake so I'm all in for Dems.

[w4rma]

10. It depends on whether you want the Democratic Party to become more progressive or more neoliberal.

I would prefer an honest progressive Democratic Party that is good on all issues, not a corrupt neoliberal one that uses wedge issues to avoid how they are selling us out on economic issues.

[marions ghost]

17. Your terms are confusing

"neoliberal" --not the same in my mind as a DINO.

I wouldn't try making Liberal a truly bad word until a few decades have passed. Not workin for ya.

[w4rma]

20. Neoliberalism - Wikipedia

Neoliberalism is a term which has been used by scholars in a wide variety of social sciences and critics primarily in reference to the resurgence of 19th century ideas associated with laissez-faire economic liberalism beginning in the 1970s and 1980s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

[marions ghost]

23. OK but ...!?

Here's the full definition from your Wiki link:

Neoliberalism --"Its advocates support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy. Neoliberalism is famously associated with the economic policies introduced by Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom and Ronald Reagan in the United States." (ie. it means extreme conservatism)

MY POINT IS: Most people do not associate the word LIBERAL with conservative economics. So the term is confusing and it shouldn't be assumed that everyone gets your meaning.

[MisterFred]

32. Eh, they do everywhere but the United States.

I guess the other poster shouldn't have assumed an educated audience at Democratic Underground?

[marions ghost]

43. Believe it or not

the "educated audience" at DU are not all experts on economic terms, especially when they are as confusing as that.

My background is journalism--and it's all about clarity when you are speaking to masses of people you really don't know.

[w4rma]

64. I use the term 'neoliberal' because it is the most accurate term that I have found to describe the

neoliberal-authoritarian wing of the Democratic Party. I'm a progressive-populist.

Similarly, the Republicans have a neoconservative-authoritarian wing that their "conservative"-populist wing is rebelling against.

[marions ghost]

66. OK so use the term

when clearly speaking about economics --

But I think you see the problem. Many readers don't have your background.

Maybe you don't want to be understood by less "educated" readers? If that's true, ignore me.

[w4rma]

73. Don't get me wrong. I'm not the only one using the term to describe the neoliberal wing.

It's very apt. It captures their liberalism on social issues and allows folks to look up their neoliberalism on economic issues.

[noamnety]

81. My "background" is that I have the google.

I was glad that I learned what it meant - it clarified some stuff for me, like when you are at the eye doctor and they are flipping through all the blurry lenses, and all of a sudden you get the I SEE IT! lens.

[noamnety]

76. Neoliberal is the correct term.

The first time I heard it, I didn't know what it meant.

So I looked it up.

[marions ghost]

78. You are technically correct

but it doesn't work as a term that the majority of readers understand.

Here's a for looking it up. Most wont. They will just be confused and ignore.

[PatrynXX]

41. ie fiscal conservative

kinda like idiots on the right thinking National Socialists and Democratic Socialists are both Nazi's X_X

[artislife]

11. You wish there were another option.

Take it up with the DNC, they started pulling for hilary as if she were an incumbent way back. That tells me something, I am not sure if you will conclude the same way but it is a point to ponder.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

72. Hillary is part of the Wall Street wing of the Democratic Party

[Smarmie Doofus]

77. Sorry. I don't get you.

>>> I do not like the attitude from many Bernie supporters toward voters, particularly Black voters that we are wrong for not supporting him. >>>>>

Isn't this EXACTLY what is SUPPOSED to happen on a political internet discussion board? Isn't this primarily why people come here? Should Sanders supporters talk to Clinton supporters about..... what.... the Super Bowl? The World Series? OF COURSE Sanders people are going to argue with Clinton supporters and debate the wisdom or ....lack thereof of.... supporting the Clinton candidacy.

What else would you expect them to be talking about?




>>>I mean I've talked to many people who actually said that its Bernie supporters who make it hard for them to support him because its that idea of White liberalism that just wants Blacks to tow the line, and because we aren't, there's something "wrong" with the fact that so many Blacks support Hillary. >>>>>>

There seems to be a lot of emotion here.... but frankly it seems a bit too tangled for me. You ( or people that you talk too) don't mind Sanders but don't like Sanders *supporters*. Is that what you're saying? If so..... does that really make a lot of sense to you? Is that an intelligent basis on which to make an important political decision? We are selecting a *president*; or a nominee for president.

We aren't making an invite list to come to a house party.

[stillwaiting]

3. They did that, but they ALSO made demonizing Bernie supporters part of their MAIN campaign strategy.

This began early in the Primary contest, and it has continued throughout.

Not just anonymous HRC-supporters (who clearly have done this), but HRC herself, her family, and her many surrogates in the media have taken to bashing Bernie Sanders voters.

That is deeply personal and hugely offensive. Some Bernie Sanders voters will not get over that, and it is Hillary's very own fault.

It's tragic that she has remained the front-runner in light of the totality of the situation that we are currently dealing with. The Democratic Party could very well be in heaps of trouble.

[madfloridian]

61. Yes, exactly.

[Docreed2003]

80. They made the choice to bash supporters...

They made the choice to bash supporters, rather than bash the candidate. While I thoroughly agree that this is a tragic approach, to the Clinton team this was an easy means to an end. What they fail to realize is that those very voters they have demonized, ostracized, and insulted will be needed in November. Sadly, it will take more than fireside songs and loyalty oaths to get people in the Sanders camp to line up behind Sec Clinton, should she win. Voter enthusiasm is what will win in Nov. We can post all the memes in the world to point out how ridiculous "The Don's" campaign is, but we on the left underestimate his appeal at our own peril. Trump is reaching out to people who feel the establishment has turned their backs on the average citizen. That resonates with a lot of voters. What's scary is many of those supporters are good people who brush off Trumps more extreme positions as if he didn't really mean it. I know many at my own place of work, where there are many educated and liberal people...I live in RI, who are supporting Trump out of their own disdain for the current establishment. They aren't racist or stupid, they are fed up with the current system. They gravitate to Trump because the media has billed him as viable and not to Sanders because they've bought into to media meme that he's not viable. I know this because I've asked them. The Clinton camp can celebrate the primary win all they want, having staved off the progressive wave, but I fear that the establishment fails to appreciate the deep unrest in this country, both left and right. November may hold a severe shock to the establishment on both sides. And I fear that a Trump presidency may be the outcome.

[Hoyt]

4. I would vote for Sanders even though his supporters slammed good Democrats, Civil Rights icons, etc.

[UMTerp01]

6. Co-sign!!!

I was furious when I saw the hate coming from people when John Lewis endorsed Clinton. The entitlement and downright superiority was sickening and quite frankly isn't going to help Sanders make inroads with a demographic that has clearly rejected him based on the primaries and caucuses thus far. However, if he ends up being the nominee, I will be right there voting for Bernie Sanders and a straight Dem ticket.

[wryter2000]

7. Welcome to DU

What you said is exactly how I feel.

[w4rma]

12. John Lewis quietly backed down on his statement, btw.

He backed down because he was lying for that Clinton/Wall Street money. He backed down like a Fox News smear quietly corrects itself after the damage had been done.

Sorry, but good people go bad over money. And if you want to make it a racial issue, then you can listen to one of the many black people that condemned his bullshit, too.

[ellennelle]

35. i would not criticize lewis so harshly

i do believe, tho, that a great number of AA leaders and voters have been manipulated by the clinton machinery for almost 3 decades, going back to AR. every time i think of how clinton politicized ricky ray rector, i want to wretch.

i so wish this were not so, about hillary and about lewis. cannot begin to express my deep love and admiration for that man. but as i watched his response to the question about bernie's chicago photos, i simply could not believe what i was hearing. he listed all his many positions in sncc and the naacp, etc., not to mention directly with king, and then to say he never saw bernie? what the hell did that even mean?? nothing? it was utterly gratuitous. not to mention, that question was interestingly timed on the same day that wapo capehart nonsense regarding the photos came out.

and i do agree, the intended damage was done.

still, tho, i cannot bring myself to fault lewis so much as the clintons' capacity to work their machinery and levy pressure. it sickens me.

so, could i beg you for links to your claim that many black folks condemned this crapola too? appreciate that.

[w4rma]

56. I criticize where criticism is merited. Here are some links.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/12/jesse-jackson-bernie-fought-back-in-chicago-during-civil-rights-movement/

http://www.salon.com/2016/02/29/cornel_west_lashes_out_at_civil_rights_icons_after_bernie_sanders_suffers_resounding_south_carolina_defeat/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/11/1483774/-Shaun-King-shows-that-John-Lewis-did-not-meet-Bill-Clinton-during-the-Civil-Rights-movement

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/27/1492338/-Why-did-MSNBC-Erase-Killer-Mike-s-Comments-About-John-Lewis

http://www.msnbc.com/up/watch/nina-turner-the-black-vote-should-be-earned-612763203706

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1280118112

http://breakingbrown.com/2016/02/rep-john-lewis-backpedals-slamming-sanders-never-meant-disparage-activism/

[Joe the Revelator]

13. Thank you for proving the point of my op

[bigwillq]

14. Hello

Welcome to DU!

[Dem2]

18. I agree with what you've said

Don't let those who disagree intimidate you based on pulling seniority.

[Starry Messenger]

25. Exactly.

[zappaman]

9. +1

[Ken Burch]

27. You will agree, though, that HRC's supporters owe Bernie and his supporters an apology

for ever implying that Bernie was weak on his commitment to fighting racism though, right?

That it simply went beyond the bounds of basic decency to do that?

[azurnoir]

40. Lewis's civil rights record wasn't slammed-his misleading statements were-the ones he walked back

himself -Heurta made a dishonest tweet in the middle of a primary vote and was called on it -nothing more or less in either case

[Hoyt]

51. He was. Truth turned out that was not Sanders walking behind him in Selma.

I know, that is him in Chicago. Fact is, you guys slammed Lewis, Clyburn, and damn near everyone else who endorsed Sanders because they believe Clinton is best for the country. Walk that back.

[azurnoir]

55. you must either be confused or attempting memory hole politics

in Selma when? I do not remember anyone claiming that, We know full well Bernie was in Chicago during the civil rights Marches

oh and I think you got it backwards to boot , are you sure this is what you meant to say?

you guys slammed Lewis, Clyburn, and damn near everyone else who endorsed Sanders because they believe Clinton is best for the country. Walk that back.

[Joe the Revelator]

59. Still proving the point of the OP. KUTGW!nt

[noiretextatique]

74. Lewis shamed himself

And was human enough to correct himself. He, unlike some, did not climb on the cross, and that is a testament to his character.

[Paka]

5. K&R

[marew]

8. Some people, sadly, have no concept of a hierarchy of needs.

For the poorest of the poor, the homeless, the seriously ill, the hungry, etc. thoughts of fighting a hateful enemy thousands of miles away is not their primary concern. Some people cannot understand this, cannot comprehend what Bernie is truly saying. Yes, absolutely, we need to address serious problems all over the world but we need to make sure that we are not funding the military war complex to such a degree that we take from our fellow citizens who need our help.
Welfare reform enacted in 1996 by a Republican Congress and signed into law by PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON replaced A.F.D.C. with the far more restrictive Temporary Assistance for Needy Families. (Would love to hear what Hillary feels about that!)
Here in the US anti-poverty policy is determined more by the balance of power than by humanitarian concerns. How do we explain why our country permits 1.17 million children to survive on $2 or less a day.

[ChiciB1]

15. I Was With A Group Of Political Friends Of Mine AND

the discussion turned to one very serious question. It was whether to go ahead and let T-RUMP get elected because he's doesn't appear to be all that knowledgeable about how Government works and how the Constitution works. Or do we take a chance and "do the dirty deed" and vote for Queen Hillary?

With her we KNOW our Congress Critters will continue to ignore us as they have for so very long, Democrats have shown how very much they've sold out this time around. It's hard to imagine anything will change with her. So many of us already know that regardless of how Progressive she sounds the reality is that she's NOT VERY PROGRESSIVE. I saw link where she's supportive of privatizing prisons and schools, but I'm not tech savvy enough to post the link.

We all know what's happening in MI and that's been ignored because MSM doesn't "do reporting" like that. But there are many more MI's. and it will CONTINUE!

So since many of us already feel this election has been rigged AGAINST Bernie by our Own Democratic Party and we feel our vote doesn't count or is being manipulated, trust is a real problem. People don't have to believe how much people dislike Hillary, but I can tell you it's very true. I've been an activist for a very long time. When I was very young I remember the 1968 Convention and how bad that was. But this time it's much worse.

The unrest in this country has been growing for a very long time and for way too many people HAVING to accept more of the same won't do this time around. The ANGER is growing and when my own grand kids who have actually gotten involved and HAVE already voted here in FL along with their friends feel they're being shut out, the combustion builds.

We've already seen what DWS is doing and just a couple of days ago a sitting POTUS has come out to support a candidate running for Senator who was once a Repuke is a slap in our face! THERE'S so much wrong about this that ramps up more anger.

Bernie is representing a "bloodless" Revolution for change and people feel we NOW need a REVOLUTION to make the people in charge listen to us. They have ignored us for so long. They control the media and MSM is only going to report WHAT they are told to report. NOTHING Democratic about this!

So, if people who have been coming out to Bernie's rallies by the thousands and thousands and keep getting ignored and we are continuously being told that HILLARY will be the nominee, something REALLY stinks! I do feel we've come to that point in time where something MUST change. But, our leaders are determined NOT to let it happen.

So, by keeping Bernie down and kicking him when he's down, I think there will be people who aren't going to sit back and take it anymore. Too much voter suppression IS keeping voter turnout low and this is not a good thing!

So, will there be a Revolution where people feel they have their voices heard OR will people see that there's not chance of that and go for the alternative. REAL Revolution that will cause much more harm.

Given that Bernie has been able to get so many people to contribute to him it stands to reason that they WOULD be voting. Where are those votes?? You don't contribute just to throw money away. It's not adding up.

So... perhaps our leader should think a little, but I doubt it's going to happen! THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE, I feel it everywhere I go!

[marions ghost]

19. The complicity of the corporate media

is at the root of much of this feeling of stifling, of being silenced. The voice of the people has to be heard in some way. Or we are all prisoners, gleaners at the bottom, victims of a sick system. It becomes a totally dysfunctional society. We're almost there.

[ChiciB1]

65. Basically, The Feeling Is One Of Great Anxiety Mixed With The Thoughts

of being "gamed" as THEY must think we're all stupid! MSM is clearly right at the top of the whole mess, from the time OCCUPY began and even more blatant now.

When so much anger is allowed to fester I'm amazed at their complete and utter STUPIDITY! If MSM can't find it within themselves to be fair and balanced then we make our own news! I don't know many people who bother with them anymore and I recently heard how Netflix has begun to seriously cut into cable TV by at least 40%. I have a ROKU stick, the cheap one and I can get Netflix for $20 a month right now. I bought it because my cable company didn't have FSTV or RT, but was amazed by how many FREE documentaries plus other news that you can get for free.

If Hillary gets the nomination she's probably going to find she's the MOST unpopular person in modern history to sit in the WH! If she even gets there! T-RUMP very well may Tee---RUMP her! I've always been active in politics. When talking about Hillary and if she "takes" the nomination, most people say they'll vote for her IF THEY HAVE TO! However lately even that comment is beginning to sour. I have no doubt AT ALL that there will actually be many Democrats who aren't going to hold their noses one more time. I haven't come out and said it yet myself, but my feelings about her are deeply negative.

At the very least I will not campaign for her, nor will I even encourage anyone in my family to do so. Most of my immediate family live close to me and we all feel the same. Right now there are 13 of us, but they also have their friends.

It is what it is!!!

[marions ghost]

67. I'm totally with ya

in everything you have said. We think alike. My family and friends also in synch.

[ChiciB1]

68. We Will Rise Or Sink Together...

It's just too bad that our leaders have yet to actually see or realize what is happening.
& right back at ya!

[marions ghost]

70. the leaders may have to follow

together

[ChiciB1]

75. Had To Log Off Yesterday... Spent A Lot Of Time Here

and needed to get some things done. My husband was giving me the evil eye. Just wanted to say that I'd prefer the leaders to follow with rings in their noses! I find it strange that Bernie's winning in places like OK and KS, guess they might be places the Clintons aren't working very hard. Living in FL I've experienced my share of "funny business" regarding voting. I feel so manipulated and my anger grows. Wish I had some trust these days, wonder if I'll ever be able to feel it again. Heh-Heh!

Gotta go walk my 2 Chocolate labs now, they're getting antsy. Better try to walk away from here for a while, it's distressing. Fl coming up soon and already "called" for Clinton! THEY ARE DOWN HERE along with her little Princess (of the dark) DWS who's really a piece of work. This state is a BIG ONE! And one that has earned the distinction of being the state who doesn't know how to vote. IT IS a mess. I've been a poll watcher many times and there are things that DO go on that bother me. And what's happening with the environment here is distressing too, it's turned into such a concrete world over the years. We're having a HUGE snake problem in the Everglades that's gotten out of hand. Not contained to the Everglades though. I get an environmental update from our electric company and I'll never forget reading about what to do if we see a python of boa constrictor. It said try to entertain it until the wildlife resource people get there. They just didn't tell us how to do it. So many people thought they would make nice pets, but then, not so much! Some have been known to eat whole alligators. And our illustrious Governor, THE ALIEN Rick Scott wants to do away with the EPA!

I live on the West Coast and I can ride my bike to the beach, but it's changed so much since I moved here so many years ago. Water is much dirtier and this place was once known for having the whitest beaches in the world!

Didn't mean to get on this subject but it's one that gets to me! I live in a very small community on the coast, but the larger city about 5 miles up the road just won the award for having the cleanest city for the 10th year. I call it a "white bread" area because there's not a large black population here and people STILL complain!!! What a crock! Many rich live around here with well known names (not me by any means) but it makes my blood boil when I hear about the horrors of MI and know that's just the tip of the iceberg! Sorry, wasn't going to go on like this... to much swirling in my head! I could write paragraphs.

Take care and remember WE SUPPORT the man of honesty and integrity, so I'll forever hold my head high! I'm sure to see you along side me again! Unfortunately I decided to watch the 4th season of House of Cards last night which probably was the worst thing I could have watched!

May we never forget!

[All in it together]

85. Thanks for your post

I feel for you being in Florida with DWS and the alien. I just got a call from the DSCC. I told them I was upset at Pres. Obama for supporting the former Repub for Senate against Grayson. He was telling me about how that would bring some cross over vote. I had to tell him where to get off! Really I don't want to support a Repub running against a Repub! That's worked out so well in the last few elections. Oh well DWS thinks heavy losses in Congress are ok since she credits herself with Obama's wins. Had a little meet up with her at the Iowa State Fair.

[Docreed2003]

82. Spot on assessment!!

[seaglass]

16. I understand it because many have childlike emotions and reactions when they don't get their way.

They pretend to care for others but truly only care for themselves.

I look forward to the day when those who continue to be vocal in their refusal to vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is, are booted off this website.

P.S. I do not believe that Bernie is perceived as racist by any but maybe a few on the fringes.

On edit: I would never characterize those who don't vote for the D in the GE as "good Democrats."

[Waiting For Everyman]

21. Jury results: 1-6 to LEAVE IT

On Sat Mar 5, 2016, 01:43 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Why I can understand the reason some good Democrats will never vote for Hillary
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511419253

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is over the top and unfounded. One, it validates not voting for the Democratic nominee, which violates TOS. That it claims without evidence that Hillary's "campaign" "made her supporters believe he was a racist. .. a sexist." Baseless allegations.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Mar 5, 2016, 02:22 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter: Refute the post. If you have back-up for your allegations, let us see the back-up. Stop the alert frenzy.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Tis a tough season. Recommend a hiatus from social media.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If Hillary is such a strong candidate as is claimed, she should be able to hold up through this OP.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Truth. Deal with it don't alert on it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Joe the Revelator]

60. Juries are smarter than some people give them credit for being.

Thank you for letting this stand.

[Jenny_92808]

83. I K & R'd that thread

The correct judgement was made (leave it alone). I loved Bernie's messages in the attached video in that thread so much, I watched it 3 times.

[mythology]

22. He isn't a Democrat and he largely is a one issue candidate

Sanders has repeatedly said things like the Democratic party is ideologically bankrupt and that he would be a hypocrite to run as a Democrat. And yet here is he, running as a Democrat. Some people might have some annoyance at that for obvious reasons.

When he was asked about foreign policy in the opening statement of the first debate after the Paris attacks, Sanders could only muster one sentence before launching into his campaign speech about inequality. He gives the same speech when asked about everything. Yes he thinks all or most of our problems stem from that, but he lacks the ability to talk about it in any other fashion or even to acknowledge that other people see things differently (perhaps because he sees them as ideologically bankrupt).

My preferred candidate didn't run, and I was less than enthused by Gore or Kerry and yet I gladly voted for both of them. I didn't get my feelings hurt because my preferred candidate didn't win.

[JonLeibowitz]

28. After the Paris attack he was asked a two-part question which he answered

I might add he was the only candidate on stage to answer both parts of the question.

[JDPriestly]

46. Inequality is the issue in this campaign. It has a lot of subissues like trade, like

who is fighting the wars for us, who went to Iraq, who stayed comfortably home, like who gets healthcare, who pays or cannot pay the co-pays, whose Social Security is at risk -- all the other issues boil down to the issues about inequality and trade. Trade policy is the basis for the inequality.

If you make a product in China and your costs including labor are 25 cents for the product. You sell that product to a subsidiary in some country like the Caymans and then ship the product from China to the US adding some costs for shipping and trucking and the retail profit percentage and somehow in the process that thing you made for 25 cents now sells for $5, you have done quite well.

That is what our current trade policy is about.

Now, if you had to make that product in an American factory where you paid $19 per hour to the workers and had all kinds of environmental and workplace safety equipment, the American workers would earn a decent living and could by the product but you would have to raise the price to let''s say $10. You wouldn't in the end, make the money you make when you can produce the produce for 25 cents and sell it at $5.

The product is cheaper now, but American wages are lower, and American tax revenues really hurt by our current system.

My numbers are just made up. But I hope some people get the idea of what I am saying and understand what is going on.

[Bohunk68]

47. You need to come up with something new, that has'nt been debunked.

It's old hat and if you have annoyance about it, oh well!

[Bread and Circus]

24. Basically this. It has been a disgusting campaign and the people in it have acted despicable.

[Jenny_92808]

84. +1

I couldn't agree with you more. Character counts!

[fun n serious]

26. Another HATE OP. Its one after another here. Can't get enough Hate. nt

[Ken Burch]

31. Not hate. Legitimate critique.

It's not hate just to point out that what HRC's campaign has said about Bernie is basically lies.

[fun n serious]

37. No it's not. Its Hatred. God forbid Bernie gets smeared right? But Hillary.. Yeah have it at!

OP after OP again and again without end. Makes me question if there any people left in the world who believe in love.

[Ken Burch]

38. Not hate to point out that the HRC claim that Bernie didn't care about institutional racism

is and has always been a lie.

And that it was despicable to claim that Bernie lied about the picture when they knew he hadn't.

[fun n serious]

44. That was the media, not me or the Hilary supporters

Whatever y'all are angry about is taken out on us. Day and night. Look at the posts in this forum. Believe me! people have lied about Hillary too. I support Hillary but always liked Sanders. I always thought he as a good man. Sadly I no longer feel that way. Now, I feel like he must be just like he people here on DU... angry, mean and full of hate.

[JDPriestly]

48. It's interesting to me how this works.

The authoritarians in the Democratic Party all support Hillary. After all, she is the candidate supported by the authorities in the DNC. She is the "OK" candidate in the view of those who want to continue the status quo.

Her supporters cannot understand that those of us who don't just jump when authority says to like Bernie. It is hard for her supporters to understand. It is in part a personality difference.

Hillary is, in my view, essentially a candidate who appeals to people who like a strong, dependable authority and want everyone to march in lockstep.

Thus, Hillary supporters see people with points of view other than their own as "haters." They interpret legitimate argument and criticism as "hate."

I don't see many accusations by Bernie supporters about Hillary "haters" although the statements of Hillary supporters are just as full of anger and just as pointed and in my experience less focused on issue-related substance as those of Bernie supporters.

I think a lot of Hillary supporters don't know what to say to respond to the legitimate criticisms that Bernie supporters make of Hillary.

But the Hillary supporters do know that they feel hurt by the sharp but honest criticisms. The Bernie supporters' criticisms hit home because they are right.

When they read Bernie supporters' honest, truthful but tough critiques of Hillary, the Hillary supporters take it very personally and feel like Bernie supporters hate them.

In reality, it is the inability of Hillary supporters to refute the Bernie supporters' arguments that is causing the feeling of helplessness, of discomfort and of being the targets of "hate" in the Hillary supporters.

Hillary supporters feel they are believing what they are supposed to believe and supporting the candidate that the authorities want them to support and that therefore others should agree with them.

When confronted by arguments from Bernie supporters that the Hillary supporters cannot refute much less intelligently respond to, the Hillary supporters get that shamed, powerless feeling a person gets when confronted by hate.

But Bernie supporters do not hate Hillary supporters or Hillary.

I, for example, present arguments that Hillary supporters cannot or do not respond to. But I don't hate anyone.

Rather, I am baffled by the inability of Hillary supporters to think of any acceptable argument to refute what I say other than that Hillary is supposedly going to win and has the poll numbers to prove it.

When it comes to substance and argument and facts and reason, Hillary supporters are incoherent, obedient to the authority of the Democratic Party and just not very capable of mounting a persuasive argument for their candidate.

That feeling you get comes from the inability to respond to Bernie supporters and defend Hillary, not from Bernie supporters' hate.

I hope I have been able to explain this so that you don't feel hated.

[fun n serious]

49. We have. We have answed and debated only to be attacked. Facts are ignored.

We probably do not have healthy debates anymore since it does no good. It's not always honest criticism, early today a sanders supported called Hillary a Wh***e. People see what they want to see.

[JDPriestly]

50. Please provide some links to answers you have given to arguments from Bernie supporters.

I always ask Hillary supporters why they are voting for her but I do not get coherent arguments.

Thanks.

[Goldfish]

52. Totally agree!

It's so frustrating to read comments from people who refuse to consider honest criticisms or facts about Hillary. I salute you and others for having the patience to explain and refute their points
of view. Thank you for all that you do.

[jalan48]

29. Look for lots of lovey-dovey, let's kiss and make up stuff from Camp Weathervane.

[fun n serious]

45. God forbid there is love!! Gasp! :/ nt

[Trust Buster]

30. Then, by all means, DON'T VOTE FOR HER !!!!!!!

What's with this constant fetish to declare over and over that bitter Bernie supporters won't vote for Hillary ? It's as silly as the whining about western state Bernie fans having the right to vote in the primaries. FEEL FREE TO VOTE FOR BERNIE IN THE WESTERN STATES. FEEL FREE TO NOT VOTE FOR HILLARY IN THE GENERAL ELECTION !!!!!! But, PLEASE, give us a break from this non-stop narcissistic parade of self loathing. (Drop mic)

[Jester Messiah]

54. Loathing, perhaps. Self-loathing? No. n/t

[w4rma]

58. Please change your name. You definitely don't support busting trusts. (nt)

[Trust Buster]

69. I won't be seeking your permission.

[Joe the Revelator]

63. If you're going to drop a mic, make your point stronger. (nt)

[Kall]

33. Yep.

[MFM008]

34. I don't like Sanders at all !!!!!!!!!!!

but I WILL vote for him if he is the nominee.
I think hes WAY to old, and will be unable to get anything done, but I WILL vote for him, there is no two ways about it.
He will become my candidate and if his closets were filled with dead babies, I will vote for him and throw my meager $$$ his way.
The fact IS we CANNOT let the GOP retake the white house, that is my first concern above ALL others, what republicans are going to do to this country, the planet, womens rights, food stamps, and everything is my MAIN concern.
So right now I don't care about Hilary's emails, the speech's she gave, if shes sleeping with everyone on wall street, Benghazi ( I lived in Libya and its a rat hole), Bills sex life, or if she squashes small animals with high heels on u-tube, ok I get the fervor BUT, BUT, BUT.
I vote for the nominee. I will not sit out and not have my say to keep Drumpf or Cruz OUT of the white house.
I will take any anti-nausea pills as needed and vote for Sanders, if he is the nominee.
Now you all sit out the election. You stick to those "ideals" you worry about apologies and forget about what republicans are going to do while you sit home and nurse your Bernie OR Hillary butt hurt.

[SciDude]

39. Clinton is a Wall Street oligarch so the best you

can hope for is that she panders to some token minorities as she sells the country right out from underneath you. No, the country simply can't take another 4-8 years of trickle-on economics and corruption and we have gone far beyond this being about SCOTUS appointments. This election is an existential struggle for survival of this country and whether or not we continue to be an oligarchy or not.

I just don't think establishment Democrats understand how corrupt and broken this country is and how culpable the Democratic party is in its demise...

[platitudipus]

53. +1

n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

62. In a campaign where there are stark idelogical differences WITHIN the party...

....what is the point of having ideals if you don't stand up for them?

[SciDude]

36. I will never vote for another Clinton.

No, not even Chelsea with her hedge fund husband or their hedge fund baby...

I no longer support any oligarch candidate and never will again.

[zentrum]

42. Yes, it's a fight

…for the soul of the Democratic Party. The Party of FDR. The one that first made it possible for there to even be a middle class.

[AtomicKitten]

57. Holy shiznit that's a powerful compilation.

k/r and thanks for posting this

[bettyellen]

71. I never saw a single person here claim he was racist- just that he did not say "enough".

(when his campaign started he had nothing on his web site or inches stump speeches about POC- so "not enough" was a fair reaction)

The spin that people put on that however, was absolutely repulsive. African Americans were accused of calling him racist as a political game. I never saw such bullshit here.

[asuhornets]

79. Yours words:

"good Democrats will never vote for Hillary"". So am I a bad Democrat for voting for Clinton?

[All in it together]

86. Good Democrats that support corporatist candidates have taken the country and the party off track.

That is absolutely a problem we must fix if we want to keep our Democracy. Why make the Democratic Party a mirror image of the republicans except for talking a good game but acting contrary to what they promised. That kills our system, that and the money from large corporations and billionaires who get heard by public servants while the people are ignored.

The system works for a few, but more and more will suffer. Are you ok with that?

[asuhornets]

87. There are some trolls in this house...n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

88. It's like you just totally skipped over the word 'some'...

try harder next time.