Who's the better Christian? Bernie or Hill?

[ret5hd]

Not according to dogma, but according to action?

on edit: I'm an atheist, and I believe Bernie is a WAY better Christian (by action) than Hillary.

[Agschmid]

1. I'm an atheist, I couldnt care less.

[ret5hd]

4. I'm an atheist also. My question stands.

I will clarify in the OP.

[lob1]

29. Jews aren't Christians. Neither are Muslims.

[FreakinDJ]

2. You can't fit a camel through the eye of a needle

[juxtaposed]

3. Sister Hillary, she prays all day

[putitinD]

52. you mean Sister Hillary preys all day

[bigtree]

5. seeking to divide based on religious faith

...'let's talk about their faith like it's dogma.'

Keep it up.

[noamnety]

11. It's a response to a debate question.

And yes - the purpose of that question in the debate absolutely appeared to be seeking to divide.

[SusanCalvin]

19. That question should never have been asked. nt

[noamnety]

23. I wish the woman hadn't danced around her goal.

She should have just said directly what she wanted to say: "Can you please take a minute to pander to the Christian vote?"

[restorefreedom]

6. you will know the trees by their fruit. nt

[TheProgressive]

7. There is no religious test for becoming the president of the US...

It's in the Constitution...

[ret5hd]

8. Maybe there should be a hypocrisy test. I don't know though...

perhaps we should ask Kissinger.

[SusanCalvin]

31. Not that anybody pays attention to that nowadays.... nt

[oberliner]

9. Bernie is definitely not a Christian

Neither in dogma, nor in action.

[ret5hd]

12. Well, elucidate.

Please tell us the ways he is deficient in his actions.

[SusanCalvin]

18. He's not deficient.

Christianity is not the definition of virtue.

[ret5hd]

22. Exactly. I agree with your point.

Hypocrisy is a more pertinent point.

(also, as i edited into my OP, I am an atheist)

[oberliner]

27. He is Jewish

He does not believe in Christianity.

[SusanCalvin]

35. Personally, I don't think he believes in religious (vice cultural) Judaism either.

Which is fine with me.

I'm a big fan of cultural Judaism.

[oberliner]

39. I'm just saying that it would never occur to a Jewish person to "be a good Christian"

The question is preposterous.

[SusanCalvin]

43. Oh, absolutely. nt

[ret5hd]

54. Exactly. I agree with your point. As Bernie pointed out all the major religions...

have the same core tenet: Do unto others...

From that limited perspective I believe Bernie is the better "Christian".

[oberliner]

58. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the savior of mankind.

It is indeed the foundational premise of the religion.

This is not something that Bernie Sanders believes.

[ret5hd]

60. Maybe you should read the entire OP.

As I said, actions not dogma.

But I haven't really liked you for a long time. If I aggravate you, so be it.

[oberliner]

61. Bernie is definitely not a Christian, nor does he act like one

If you want to change the definition of Christian to just mean a "nice person who cares about poor people" then the entire OP is rendered meaningless.

I am not at all aggravated, and I think if you got to know me, you'd like me a lot.

[SusanCalvin]

64. That definition drives me nuts! nt

[oberliner]

67. I think most Jewish people would not take kindly to being called a "good Christian"

That is probably why I am emphasizing the point repeatedly.

[ret5hd]

65. Nah, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.

[oberliner]

77. OK

Well, at least we are both doing everything we can to make the world a better place!

[SusanCalvin]

63. The same core tenet with a lot of gibberish and garbage thrown in.

(Buttons pushed, in case you couldn't tell... ;-> )

[ret5hd]

68. I like buttons!!!

[SusanCalvin]

69. Oooh, pretty!

I'm distracted by shiny objects!

[PeaceNikki]

10. Oh, ffs. Really??

[ret5hd]

14. Yeah.

[denverbill]

13. I think your question is quite valid and appropriate.

There are a lot of people who claim to be Christians very loudly, but act nothing like what Jesus taught.

Republicans all, including Donald Trump, claim to be Christians, but don't support anything which would support Jesus' view. Jesus taught about loving others as yourself, loving your enemies, and avoiding the perils of wealth. Republicans, and many Democrats, talk about the needy as leeches, about hating your enemies, and greed is their virtual religion.

Bernie is the only candidate who truly care about wealth inequality, helping those who need help, and restoring a wealth balance to American politics. Hillary and Bill may be fine in terms of social policies, but on economics, they'll go to bat for the Waltons every time.

[ret5hd]

15. TY. (nt)

[SusanCalvin]

25. Jesus? The guy who invented hell?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/05/08/what-did-jesus-say-or-teach-about-hell/

[MrMickeysMom]

32. Hey!

[SusanCalvin]

41. That is almost as scary

As the glow-in-the-dark Jesus on the cross I had when I was a kid. (Don't ask....!)

[denverbill]

42. I'm agnostic. I'd love to believe in heaven and hell, but I don't.

However, I do believe in Jesus' teachings regarding treating everyone as you would want yourself to be treated, including your enemies. There are limits to the latter of course but generally speaking, the world would be a far, far better place if someone with the temperament of Jesus ruled, while people with the temperament of Donald Trump ... drooled.

Give me Jimmy Carter over Paul Ryan any day of the week. Greed is evil versus greed is good.

[SusanCalvin]

46. Temperament of Jesus?

http://www.bornagainpagan.com/texts/014-jesus-is-a-jerk.html

[TheUndecider]

37. Perfect! Compare it against doctrine,then judge

[oberliner]

48. You are just picking out the things that Jesus taught that you like

Bernie's positions on issues have nothing to do with Jesus and what he may or may not have taught.

[denverbill]

62. Well, duh. I supported Hitler's economic revival proposals and opposed his position on the Jews.

Frankly, as an agnostic, i'm pretty fucking free to pick and choose whatever I like from whoever I choose. And if I like Hitler's position on domestic spending to rebuild infrastructure and Jesus' position on helping those who need help, I don't necessarily have to believe I should put Jesus to death for being a Jew (or not Jewish enough if I was a Jewish religious official in 0 AD) or Jesus' belief that there is a hell (or heaven for that matter).

My positions also tend to agree with Adam Smith who said:
“Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.”
― Adam Smith
...
Our merchants and masters complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price and lessening the sale of goods. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people.”
...
“The interest of [businessmen] is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order ... ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined ... with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men ... who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public”
― Adam Smith, An Inquiry Into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. Volume 1 of 2


I always find it interesting that I have more in common with Jesus and Adam Smith, the 'father' of capitalist theory, men whom my philosophical opponents claim to support, than most Republicans do.

[oberliner]

66. Exactly

That is precisely my point.

Why bring Christianity into it at all?

Bernie is a good person with deeply held values and principles that have nothing whatsoever to do with "being a good Christian" as he is not a Christian by any reasonable definition of the word.

[denverbill]

70. Ok, I guess I get your point now.

I guess my point is that I believe the vast majority of people in America support the most important 'Christian' values. That includes Christians (including Catholics/Mormons/etc who some 'christians' don't consider Christians), Jews, Muslims Buddhists, etc. And Bernie Sanders in my opinion, better promotes Christian (and Jewish and Muslim and atheist) values more than any other candidate.

Almost every Republican plays up their religion, exactly like Jesus told people not to. He told people to pray to god like a thief in the night, not running around bragging about how religious they were but to pray in secret when nobody else could hear.

Sorry if I got defensive, but I think there are a lot of people who think that because Bernie isn't 'Christian' it's a character flaw. I see now that wasn't your point and I think we really agree by and large. I guess what I was saying that for not being a 'christian' Bernie is more 'Christian' than any Donald Trump/Paul Ryan supporter I know.

[oberliner]

72. I get yours as well

But I really don't like the framing. I don't think Jewish people like being told that they are "Christian" even if it is meant positively.

[denverbill]

76. OK well I'm going to check-out of this convo, because we agree way too much:)

I feel like I'm explaining myself into disagreement when I should just be nodding my head and agreeing.

I just feel like the world's main religions ultimately agree on 95% of their beliefs, and that the fact that Bernie is ostensibly Jewish should make no difference to people who claim to be devout Christians, because he exemplifies their beliefs by his nature. It's not that I think there should be a religious test for office. It's that I think if you judge a person by their character, an agnostic like me can be more Christian than Paul Ryan or Donald Trump. And if you judge Bernie Sanders by what I think would have been Jesus' yardstick, Bernie would beat any candidate in this race by a mile.

[denverbill]

73. Ultimately my point is this:

Bernie, a fairly secular Jew, better exemplifies and upholds the values of Christianity, than any self-professed 'Christian' Republican in America.

[oberliner]

75. Again, I would respectfully dispute this assertion

A core Christian value is making God the focal point of your life. That people should look to God for guidance on important matters. That people should behave in such a way that they will be looked upon with favor by the Lord Jesus Christ who will reward such behavior with eternal life. This is something that is in complete opposition to the beliefs of a person like Bernie Sanders.

[denverbill]

78. That isn't unique to Christianity. Judaism and Islam I think are the same.

And I personally think atheists can have a similar focus.

I can't debate you any more tonight my friend. You are too much like me. We might be able to find things to argue about regarding minor details, but frankly, from everything you have said tonight we are ideological twins.

Goodnight, and keep fighting the good fight.

[oberliner]

79. It is definitely unique to Christianity

It is actually radically different from Judaism in particular in this regard.

Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion!

[denverbill]

81. OK, this is it for tonight.:) Reminds me of old DU.

This first commandment of Judaism was to have no other gods before God. And Islamic people spend a lot more time every day focusing on God than most Christians, considering they stop and pray several times a day. The most devout Christians may pray at meals, at best.

I think very few people who call themselves Christians make God the focal point of their lives. I have known some really good Christians who did, and I'm quite sure there are really good Jews and Muslims who do as well, but the vast majority of Christians, Jews, and Muslims at best give God lip-service.

[oberliner]

84. Referring to the afterlife/heaven stuff

Sorry that wasn't clear. The whole getting-into-heaven focus is where Christianity and Judaism are starkly different.

[SusanCalvin]

16. The question should never have been asked in the debates. nt

[ret5hd]

20. I agree. (nt)

[Bucky]

17. Dumb framing... sorry

I think policy is not sectarian

[SusanCalvin]

21. Depends on which parts of Christianity one is talking about. nt

[ret5hd]

24. I know. Maybe one of the two would excel at stoning. The other, not so much.

[SusanCalvin]

26. Heh.

[MrMickeysMom]

28. Well, if you compared ANYONE's Christianity to what they do every day...

They'd all fall short.

As far as being in tune with the force of the universe, I'd say Sanders has it. His intent is true.

[ret5hd]

38. I know I would. But I try to be a good xtian, jew, muslim, hindi, etc...even as an atheist.

I fail constantly.

[SusanCalvin]

47. Hopefully your failures are on the bad parts...!

[ret5hd]

59. Well, I'll just say I have stoned no sinners today.

Some days I wish I could get by with it, but today I did not follow through.

[840high]

44. Good way to put it. Agree.

[grasswire]

30. Bernie, obviously. nt

[TheUndecider]

33. Gotta go with the kindly Jew here

[JohnnyLib2]

34. God help us!

[notadmblnd]

36. Sanders is a better human being. It has nothing to do with religion

[ret5hd]

40. I hope that Palin wannabe asking the question realizes that.

[SusanCalvin]

49. ^THIS^

[yourout]

45. I don't care who is the best christian. I care about who is the best Human Being.

[ret5hd]

50. I agree. I believe Bernie is the better person.

I hope you agree.

[yourout]

56. I agree.....in a monumental way.

[dchill]

51. I'm with you, ret5hd. Actions speak louder...

[gwheezie]

53. Who cares. I find this type question odd.

Did Jesus tell Bernie to run?

[ret5hd]

57. 1) I do also. 2) Nah, but maybe his conscience did.

[agracie]

55. Bernie is the better person.

[ret5hd]

71. G'nite ya'll.

See you in the morning.

[Half-Century Man]

74. Perhaps some research into Judaism.

You cannot follow the tenets of both. The number and nature of gods clash.

[senz]

80. This sums it up:

[fourcents]

82. Sander's because he innately follows the golden rule and believes we are all in this together.

[PowerToThePeople]

83. Who cares?

[southerncrone]

85. Agree. Actions do speak louder than words.