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Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:29 PM

 

I have less concern about Bernie's use of the term "ghetto" than that his frame of reference for POC

seems to be limited to poverty, criminal justice and welfare.

For example, when he was asked last night what he would do to improve race relations in this country, he talked about crime, poverty and welfare.

And last night was not an aberration; that's a common refrain for him. For example, in a debate a few weeks ago, he was asked what he would do to improve race relations and he responded as follows:

"And the progress that we can build on is to understand that we should not have 35 percent of African-American kids in this country living in poverty ... we need real police reform. We need to make sure that when people are in jail, often, African-American and Latino, there is a path back -- back to civil society so that we don't have the rates of recidivism that we do right now.

"We have got to do away with mandatory minimum sentences. And I'll give you one example where we can make huge progress.

"Right now, it turns out that the African-American community and the white community smoke marijuana at about equal levels, OK? But it also turns out that blacks are four times more likely to be arrested than whites for possession of marijuana, OK? And that is why I believe that we should take marijuana out of The Federal Controlled Substance Act. Too many lives have been destroyed. Too many young people have been -- incurred police records for possession of marijuana."

This is why so many people think that Bernie is tone deaf. But his tone deafness comes from a cramped view of race, which is not surprising since race and race relations is just not something he has focused much attention on in the half century since he worked in the civil rights movement in the 1960s.

That doesn't mean that he is a bad person, that he is a racist or that he hates black people. But it does mean that he is not as racially sensitive as he and his supporters are trying to convince us that he is.

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Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply I have less concern about Bernie's use of the term "ghetto" than that his frame of reference for POC (Original post)
EffieBlack Mar 2016 OP
Kalidurga Mar 2016 #1
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #6
nashville_brook Mar 2016 #23
dogman Mar 2016 #2
TM99 Mar 2016 #3
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #4
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #11
Scootaloo Mar 2016 #18
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #22
Scootaloo Mar 2016 #36
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #44
Wilms Mar 2016 #47
Scootaloo Mar 2016 #48
Kalidurga Mar 2016 #52
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #19
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #45
Wilms Mar 2016 #5
Scootaloo Mar 2016 #7
itsrobert Mar 2016 #8
Wilms Mar 2016 #10
whatchamacallit Mar 2016 #9
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #13
whatchamacallit Mar 2016 #16
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #25
whatchamacallit Mar 2016 #34
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #12
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #14
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #15
PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #24
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #27
PeaceNikki Mar 2016 #29
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #30
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #28
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #56
tammywammy Mar 2016 #21
amborin Mar 2016 #17
Recursion Mar 2016 #20
amborin Mar 2016 #26
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #35
dogman Mar 2016 #31
Recursion Mar 2016 #40
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #32
GreatGazoo Mar 2016 #33
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #38
Wilms Mar 2016 #41
bigtree Mar 2016 #37
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #39
whatchamacallit Mar 2016 #42
TTUBatfan2008 Mar 2016 #55
Vattel Mar 2016 #43
EffieBlack Mar 2016 #46
ZX86 Mar 2016 #49
Vattel Mar 2016 #50
AgadorSparticus Mar 2016 #51
Hiraeth Mar 2016 #53
AgingAmerican Mar 2016 #54

Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:32 PM

1. Why do you keep acting like poor people don't matter?

Do middle class and rich people need as much defending? I am probably clueless because I have never been rich so maybe they do need a champion. Middle class people sure do or they will disappear altogether and guess which groups of people will be hurt the quickest by middle class shrinkage.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:36 PM

6. Who said that "poor people don't mater?" I certainly didn't

 

But poverty is not the only issue facing the black community nor are all black people facing poverty, so bringing it up in response to every question about race means that either he lacks a deep understanding about the issue of race in America or he has a very limited understanding about the black community.

And answering a question about race relations with a soliloquy about criminal justice and marijuana is non-responsive, to say the least.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:59 PM

23. yeah, you are saying poor people don't matter -- it's identity vs economics

economics helps everyone. lifting the racist drug laws helps everyone. fixing the broken criminal justice system that disproportionately has a negative impact on communities of color, helps everyone.

but this narrative you repeat, and we've all seen it elsewhere ad nauseam, erases people of lesser means as if they don't matter. as if we should be doing more to help affluent people...the 1%...as if they need the Democrats to give them more advantage.

and here's another thing -- as Benjamin Dixon says, "if the only time you bring up poverty is against Republicans, then you're only using the poor/working class as a political play thing." we can't have a functioning country, "with nice things," as long as we keep whole classes of people pushed into the underclass. that's worth addressing, and any Democrat who faults another Democrat for seeking answers to these problems needs to check themselves.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:33 PM

2. And Hillary said she is opposed to institutional racism yet supports the drug war and

the death penalty. Do you think she gets it?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:35 PM

3. Bulllshit!

 

The only real mark of privilege in America in the 21st century is money and the power it buys.

And while all of us privileged PoC in our middle class or upper class homes posting on this forum are talking about how 'tone deaf' Sanders is, that 26% are still living in fucking misery fearful for the lives and the lives of their children.

His message is about both social justice AND economic justice. Part of that is facing the reality of ghettos.

I grew up on the 'right' side of the tracks. My black father married a white woman and they were both highly educated. This elevated them to the middle class where they taught together at a small college in western North Carolina. And many of my friends and girlfriends lived on the 'wrong' side of the tracks. The ghetto, even in that small town, was real. There were drugs, violence, poverty, and depression. Then I saw the other side of the wrong side of 'tracks' and it was the whites lost in a similar spirit crushing reality.

I haven't forgotten where I came from, what my folks gave to me, or what I experienced as a young man. Sanders cares too. And all of this kvetching over 'reductive and offensive comments' shows me that most of y'all have forgotten and even worse, most of you just don't give a shit about those that don't have because you fucking got yours!

Clinton will make sure you keep yours and those 'predators' get what they deserve. Sanders will make sure that we all have justice, we all have education, freedom from violence, health care, and decent paying jobs.

I am saddened and sickened by these types of articles and posts when so many lack for so much in a country with this much obvious wealth.

Racism is a psychological issues that requires that a culture change through empathy. And when I read the myriad of threads just like yours, I see PoC will little to no empathy. You are worried someone thinks you might be poor. Oh boo hoo. 26% of AA's do live in abject poverty. And Clinton won't do shit. She will call them 'superpredators' and push more horrible legislations for minorities, and y'all lap up her pandering lies and bullshit because you get yours and fuck everyone else.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:35 PM

4. Cool...what specific actionable issues would you add? Emphasis on specific and actionable.

I am curious to know.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:43 PM

11. There are many: For example, affirmative action, the wealth gap between blacks and whites

 

(not the wealth gap between the 1% and 99% but the gaps between the same classes of people within the 99%), structural racism, the Voting Rights Act, the need for more open conversations about race between people of different races, support for disadvantaged business enterprises, etc.

There are many. But he always defaults to crime, poverty and welfare.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #11)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:56 PM

18. So instead of economics, he needs to talk about economics

 

And instead of the inherent racial biases of the criminal justice system, he needs to talk about the inherent racial biases of the criminal justice system.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:59 PM

22. Not sure you got that from my post, but . . .

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #22)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:13 PM

36. I did, in fact

 

You want sanders to stop talking about poverty among blacks, and instead talk about affirmative action, a program initially devised ort help alleviate black poverty. Okay.

You want him to stop talking about racial bias in criminal justice, and instead talk about structural racism - which is most baldly and lethally expressed in our criminal justice system. Okay.

Kind of comes across as you simply not wanting Sanders to talk.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #36)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:39 PM

44. There is strange tendency among Sanders supporters to completely misread/distort

 

every criticism of him to ridiculous degrees.

I never said that he should stop talking about overty and instead talk about affirmative action. I am saying that he needs to talk about MORE than poverty and crime and welfare when talking about black people - just like he does when talking about white people. But your insistence that he can't do that shouldn't be surprising since it is completely consistent with the sense that Sanders is a one-issue candidate. Maybe he doesn't talk about more than one-dimensional notions about blacks because he CAN'T since he does not seem to be able to see beyond a very narrow lens.

Your insistence on exaggerating the positions of everyone who disagrees with Bernie is also very telling. But here's some clarifications: saying Bernie is tone deaf does not mean we're calling him a racist. Saying that he needs to talk about more than two or three issues when talking to and about black people does not mean we're saying he should NEVER talk about those issues. Pointing out that Sanders needs to do more to reach out to black voters today doesn't mean we're saying that his work in the civil rights movement was meaningless.

It's very simple - but it seems to be a little too complex and nuanced for people who are so caught up in Sanders hero worship, they can't contemplate the possibility that anyone doesn't see him as they do.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #44)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:49 PM

47. "just like he does when talking about white people"

 

Please give an example of what you are referring to here.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #44)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 11:05 PM

48. I'm just trying to fix up all those split hairs you've got going.

 

You're criticizing Sanders for talking about poverty as relates to blacks in America. When asked what you would prefer he talk about, you answer that you'd rather he talk about wealth disparity, business disadvantage, and affirmative action.

Okay. But... aren't these topics that fall under poverty, either as things that impact it, or exist to address it? Do you imagine that Sanders does not know about all of this stuff?

Also a few things...

But your insistence...

You do this twice. I've not insisted anything, thanks.

But here's some clarifications: saying Bernie is tone deaf does not mean we're calling him a racist.

Pointing out that Sanders needs to do more to reach out to black voters today doesn't mean we're saying that his work in the civil rights movement was meaningless.


I didn't mention either thing. Who are you responding to here?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #18)

Tue Mar 8, 2016, 01:42 AM

52. Well they aren't saying that Bernie needs to talk about the specific issues of urban areas....

But, they are saying Bernie needs to address the specific issues of urban areas... And they aren't saying that social issues can be addressed by legislation, but they are saying Bernie needs to propose legislation to deal with social issues.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #11)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:58 PM

19. Thank you, so here are my response and further questions to you point

1.) Affirmative Action

I agree.

What would you like to see Bernie say/promise to do more about in this regard? And are you talking about affirmative action for all minorities or just African Americans? What more can be done?

2.) Wealth gap between blacks and whites

I agree.

What would you like to see Bernie say/promise more about this issue? How do you raise the income and wealth of blacks with respect to whites? What about other minorities? Do you consider $15 minimum wage a start? What about free tuition for college, wouldn't that remove a huge barrier to higher income for blacks? Do you feel programs need to be "targeted" for blacks in exclusion of whites?

3.) Structural Racism

Please elaborate as I am not really sure what this concept means exactly (outside of unfair policing policy, which I know Sanders discusses a lot).

Housing? Job hiring laws? What does this mean exactly?

4.) Voting Right Act

Please elaborate on how you think Sanders neglects this. I have heard him mention these issues more than once.

What exactly should he say or support to make you feel he is addressing this?

5.) Need for open conversation about race between people of different races

I think this is important but I am not sure this is actionable from a legal/Presidential angle.

Isn't this more of a societal/cultural thing? How should Bernie frame an approach to this matter?

6.) Support for disadvantaged business enterprises

I agree.

What can he say that he's not saying in terms of restructuring the economy to favor the powerless over large corporations? Specific loans and grants for black people to start or own businesses?



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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:39 PM

45. Thanks for the questions. I will think them through and write a thoughtful response.

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:35 PM

5. I would have thought those were good answers.

 

Poverty, unemployment, and jail time for smoking a joint is a form of segregation.

When people of all races can participate in a robust economy, you will have more interactions between them. Those interactions can be the start of the lessening of bias.

What do you recommend be tried to help reduce racism?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:37 PM

7. Alright, so question

 

When the topic is problems facing Americans - in this specific, black Americans - what should the proper frame be?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:39 PM

8. Bernie is just answering the questions with phrases from his stump speeches

He has repeated his stump speech so often that he immediately goes to it like a computer reading from its database. A lot of candidates do the same. Sanders is just another politician, regardless of what he and his supporters say.

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #8)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:42 PM

10. It beats a weathervaner though.

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:41 PM

9. You're right he is no Hillary

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #9)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:48 PM

13. Great picture and great for Bernie that he was arrested 50 years ago

 

What does that have to do with my OP?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #13)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:56 PM

16. Obviously Hillary's frame (whatever the fuck it is) is vastly superior to that of

the guy in the picture. Inexplicably. As far as the age of the picture is concerned, you tell me what the shelf life on contributions to the civil rights struggle is, and if it applies to all participating 50 years ago.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:01 PM

25. Nice attempt at deflection, but this has nothing to do with my post or my point

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:10 PM

34. I knew you'd skate away from my question

because you can't answer without revealing the hypocrisy at the center of Clinton's smear campaign.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:45 PM

12. First he was quoting a member of Black Lives Matter

 

so your beef is with her. and second, you should add the context of the word in Jewish history, and how the word was used to describe jewish enclaves in the United States as well.

I guess BLM should go under the bus as well. Irony, I could not write this myself.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #12)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:52 PM

14. I don't care who he was quoting - my OP stands

 

He tends to answer questions about race by focusing only on poverty, crime and welfare. Period.

You can defend it all you want, but it is a problem for him, as evidenced by his continually poor showing among African Amerian voters. And telling us over and over and over and over and louder and louder and louder that we just don't get it isn't helping his cause at all - and, in fact, only makes Bernie's supporters appear to be as tone deaf as he is.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #14)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:53 PM

15. BLM under the buss

 

we get it.

And while you are at it, please deny the holocaust and that history that goes with ghettoes. They are not exclusive to you guys.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:00 PM

24. For fuck' sake, get a grip. This isn't about the Holocaust and NOBODY here denies it.

Your constant baseless accusations that people here criticizing Sanders have or would is completely insane.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #24)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:01 PM

27. you also throwing BLM under the bus? COOL

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #27)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:02 PM

29. Nope. And if that's what you got out of my reply, go buy a clue.

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Response to PeaceNikki (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:03 PM

30. I don't have to

 

it is pretty self explanatory

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:02 PM

28. No, I have not thrown BLM under the bus - but nice try.

 

Among other things, if you had actually read my post, you would know that it had nothing to do with the "ghetto" comment.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #28)

Tue Mar 8, 2016, 03:14 PM

56. Sorry you did, after all I did post the transcript

 

here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511439516

So this is truly a case of though protests too much

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #12)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:59 PM

21. Who from BLM was he quoting?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:56 PM

17. BUT HE DID DO This!!!!!!!!!! he introduced just such a bill:

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Response to amborin (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 09:58 PM

20. Is introducing a bill an "accomplishment"?

Is this the same theory as every kid getting a trophy?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #20)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:01 PM

26. what would make you happy? Clinton championed Bill's draconian drug laws that led to massive incarce

incarceration; has Hillary proposed removing marijuana from Fed Cont Sub list?

I was answering the OP, which specifically listed that

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Response to amborin (Reply #26)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:10 PM

35. And your answer helps to prove my very point

 

In order to counter my OP pointing out that Sanders seems to limit most of his discussion about race to criminal justice, welfare and poverty, you launch into an argument about a drug law that he introduced (that went nowhere after he apparently didn't lift a finger to get it passed after he introduced it) and drug laws that Bill Clinton signed (after Sanders voted for it).

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Response to Recursion (Reply #20)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:03 PM

31. I "No we can't" a winning slogan?

He should get more credit for an effort than taking a pass.

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Response to dogman (Reply #31)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:28 PM

40. Why?

He should get more credit for an effort than taking a pass.

Why? Again, that's fine for a 3rd-grade soccer tournament, but actual politics?

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Response to amborin (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:05 PM

32. What does this bill have to do with "race relations?"

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:06 PM

33. You heard "poverty, criminal justice and welfare" -- I heard 'discrimination in employment,

unequal protections and access to justice under the law and strengthening social programs from social security to healthcare.'

He mentions MJ but says "the African-American community and the white community smoke marijuana at about equal levels" so it isn't the use of MJ that he is associating with POC but rather the grossly unequal outcome. He isn't saying POC all smoke reefer -- he is citing the prejudice that results in 4x higher arrest rates and different sentence for the same petty crime.

Sanders is consistent and if he has an umbrella cause it is fairness. Justice and fairness by definition have to be color blind but if someone asks Bernie specifically about POC he cites prejudice and its impact as a unique and additional injustice that POC face regardless of income.


Justin Bamberg, 28, a Democratic state representative in South Carolina, recently switched his support from Clinton to Sanders. The Sanders campaign hopes it is a trend.

“Hillary Clinton is more a representation of the status quo when I think about politics or about what it means to be a Democrat,” Bamberg said.

“Bernie Sanders on the other hand is bold. He doesn’t think like everyone else. He is not afraid to call things as they are.”

Meeting Sanders had convinced him. It was “not a presidential candidate talking to a state representative or an old white man talking to a young black guy,” he said, but “a man talking to a man about things they are passionate about”.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Vju4fCvBGp4J:www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/us-election-2016-hillary-clinton-loses-grip-on-young-black-vote/news-story/87fa74a04c5ca3093af0c09dddd19d76+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

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Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #33)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:16 PM

38. I heard what he actually said. You seem to have heard what you wanted to hear, not what he said

 

Of course, you are free to infer what you think he meant, but if he wants to reach people other than his existing supporters, he can't expect people to read his mind. He needs to say what he actually means, not what people who think his stuff doesn't stink will twist it into in order to try to convince people that he didn't say what he actually said.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #38)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:28 PM

41. What are HRC's positions in these regards? n/t

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:13 PM

37. he pissed off all kinds of folks with that nonsense about ghettos

...he sounds stuck in the 50's-60's.

I like his stance on pot.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #37)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:21 PM

39. And his supporters' insistence on telling everyone that he didn't really say what he said

 

is only making it worse. The inability to recognize that their candidate is not perfect only feeds the impression that this is more of a cult than a campaign.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #39)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:31 PM

42. Don't vote for him.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #39)

Tue Mar 8, 2016, 03:36 AM

55. The cult thing...

...can easily be said about the Clintons. Flip flop on every major issue and still have people blindly worshipping them. Bernie screwed up pretty bad on the ghetto/poverty comments and I completely agree with you he is tone deaf.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:38 PM

43. I am glad he focuses on the most important issues in the few seconds he has to answer a question.

 

Describing that as racially insensitive is really a stretch.

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Response to Vattel (Reply #43)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 10:43 PM

46. Let me get this straight

 

He's supposedly trying to gain the support of black voters, who are overwhelmingly telling him that he is not reaching us because he's not talking about the issues that we want him to focus on and your response is "he's focusing on the most important issues."

So, what WE think are important issues don't matter, as long as the supporters who are already in his corner think that he's responding to us, that's all that matters.

As you can see, that's not working at all. But good luck with it anyway.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #46)

Mon Mar 7, 2016, 11:36 PM

49. A smart consumer evaluates the meritS of the product or service.

Not the skill of the sales person. Bernie could be a mushed mouthed mumbler for all I care. I know what's best for myself, my family, and my community. I'm not waiting for some sales person to convince me of anything. It's MY RESPONSIBILITY to determine what's best for me and mine. Not wait around for some sales person to dazzle me with snazzy sales pitches and catchy slogans.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #46)

Tue Mar 8, 2016, 12:24 AM

50. Who knows what would "work"? I think he should say what he thinks,

 

and let the voters decide. In my opinion he should leave the shape-shifting to Clinton.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Mar 8, 2016, 12:31 AM

51. I think his answers effectively addresses issues that affect the African American community

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Mar 8, 2016, 02:46 AM

53. I am more concerned with the fact that his heart is in the right place than, the fact

that, like most any other elderly white man, he does not know how to phrase things to suit a hipper, more sophisticated, younger generation.

What he is saying and how he is saying it sounds to me like he is TRYING to understand and TRYING to reach across. Sounds to me like he is offering a helping hand.

Whether you reach back and accept the helping hand is up to you.

I also understand where middle class and upper middle class people of any color are not so interested in his populist message.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Mar 8, 2016, 02:49 AM

54. Nonsense

 

I would say you are the one with issues, not Bernie. You are just splitting hairs.

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