We should vote for the democratic nominee.

[davidthegnome]

So... as those who read my posts know, I'm with Mr. Sanders - and have been since he entered the race. There's a great many reasons that I support him instead of his opponent, reasons that I feel are pretty solid, but I'm not going to go into them right now, that's not the intent of this OP. Lately I have been reading a great many "Bernie or bust" comments, threads and so on - and while everyone absolutely has the right to vote for whomever they please, I would like to make my argument here as to why we should vote for the nominee, regardless of which candidate eventually gains that status.

1. Climate change. It should be considered... more than considered, that climate change is on the rise, global warming is on the rise - and most of us, if not all of us, have witnessed and felt some of it's effects over the last several years and more. A Republican President would not be good for this. It's not just the old "drill baby drill" nonsense, but it's everything from pipelines to; "clean natural gas", to support for fracking, to, essentially, support for business well above and beyond any consideration for our environment. Global warming is not a hoax, we need to do what we can to save the human race and the world as we know it. Either one of our two democratic candidates would be far, far superior to any of the republicans in this regard.

2. The economy. Both of our candidates support increasing the minimum wage. Both of our candidates support paid maternity leave. Both of our candidates support improving access to healthcare for everyone. Both of our candidates support helping young people and poor people go to (or go back to) school. There is a difference (albeit a severe one) in how they wish to do these things, but they are both in favor. Both of our candidates support ending the wage gap between genders. Both of our candidates support some level of tax reform, regulation, and so on and so forth. Both of our candidates support bringing back those trillions of dollars stashed offshore to re-invest in our economy. Both candidates support repairing our crumbling infrastructure. How many of these things do you think a Republican President would support? What are our chances of any progressive change moving forward, if Trump or Cruz is our next President?

3. Foreign Policy. A slippery subject, I know. Let me just say that neither of our candidates are as eager for war, the torture of prisoners, building walls, banning immigrants, muslims, and various other peoples. Again... the difference under a republican President would shortly be made very clear. How we are considered by the world, how we treat our neighbors, allies, enemies, neutral parties and everyone else... is pretty damned important in the growing global economy. We should be building bridges and making friends, not building walls and installing dictators.

Three fairly straight forward examples of how a republican president would be light years worse than either Clinton or Sanders. You don't have to like Clinton or Sanders, you don't have to praise them or salute them... what I ask is that, even if only to prevent a Republican Presidency and vote for the lesser of two evils... you consider voting for the nominee. I am going to do this, no matter how frustrated I get during the primaries, or how upset I become at one particular candidate, I am voting for our nominee because we cannot afford to have one of those republicans in office. They are not Reagan republicans, they are not Nixon republicans, these are neocons, with the ever so popular tea bag ideology, contempt for the poor, for the environment, for just about everyone who isn't a rich white man.

It could very well be the difference that moves us in the direction of saving our world and race. I'll say again... we cannot afford a republican President, it would be an absolute complete disaster. I'm not joking when I say that many of them are waiting eagerly for the end of the world and the rapture (particularly evangelicals), I'm not joking when I tell you that a large number of them don't believe in climate change. I'm not joking when I say that their free market ideas, trickle down theories and so on are absolutely disastrous for our economy.

To me... anything but voting for the democratic nominee is unthinkable. I will do everything in my power to prevent lunatics and bigots from taking over our Country (again) as they did in 2000. I urge you all to join me in this.

[mikehiggins]

1. HRC as opposed to Chump? Of course I'll vote for the Democratic nominee. n/t

[revbones]

2. At least both say they support those things.

Only Sanders has the record to back that up. Clinton seems to say one thing, then do the opposite behind closed doors.

[Joe the Revelator]

3. You use your vote however you want to.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. Opinions differ.

If the choice is between a Tbsp of arsenic or a Tsp of arsenic in my coffee I'll take tea. Perhaps, Green tea.

[davidthegnome]

9. With respect

I feel that it is more the difference of a gallon as opposed to an an ocean. I like the Green party, I have always admired their principles and ideas - and their support for the environment. I do believe that a stronger third party would be a good thing for the Country. I don't think though, that a third party candidate is going to have much of a chance at winning the general. If I cast my support behind a candidate who cannot win the general election... during the general election, then a vote that could have gone (at the least) to stop a Trump or Cruz Presidency, will not be there.

I'm definitely not Clinton's biggest fan. I do not like her or trust her. I will, however, vote for her if she wins the nomination because, some times, it really is a matter of magnitude. For me, it would be a choice between moderately bad and absolutely, unbelievably awful.

I'm thinking, specifically, of the years between 2000 and 2008 - and a return to that kind of government, a return to that kind of reckless, shameless war-mongering, contempt for the poor, racism, bigotry, ignorance... environmental destruction ramped up on a massive scale.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. With respect. You should vote for the candidate you prefer.

With respect. It is extremely unlikely your vote, or my vote, will decide the outcome of the general election.

Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost. John Quincy Adams(D)

[randome]

22. Is there anything wrong with voting for the greater good?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. It that's your perception...no.

Perceptions differ.

[davidthegnome]

24. I would argue that every vote counts.

Of course, that both supports and contradicts my argument at the same time. It's complicated for me, because I do feel that greens and independents (and socialists - and many other groups) should have a stronger voice in government, I do feel that we would be better served by having more than two powerful political parties. I absolutely will fight for principle as hard as I can for as long as I can - but a vote for Clinton, if she wins the nomination, is not, to me... surrender, it is not giving up the fight. It is making a decision for the greater good - and I do not think it can be realistically denied that a Trump or Cruz Presidency would be... unthinkably worse than a Clinton Presidency.

What it comes down to for me, is the likelihood of a Trump/Cruz Presidency, if liberals, democrats, independent progressives, greens and others cannot unite behind one candidate. Every vote for a green candidate is a vote that might have gone to stop the other side. I absolutely respect your principles and your will to fight for them. I will fight for my own - but we are on the same side.

It's not simply a matter of who sits in the big chair... who wins the crown, so to speak, it is a matter, to some extent, of prevention. Preventing the kind of disaster that could await us, that could make the world so much a worse place for our children, grandchildren - and generations beyond. If we are to have a chance... a chance at fighting for the common good, for making the world a better place, improving our environment, our economy, our infrastructure and so many other things... we need to do these things together. A big part of the problem is that nearly half of the voting public (the ones who will actually vote) seem almost gleefully determined to destroy everything.

Your vote will absolutely count in any event - and while it is unlikely that either of our votes will determine the outcome of a general - I would suggest that they could determine the outcome. I do not think an independent or green candidate can win the general... perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps the Country will reject BOTH parties and vote for a third... the current political situation indicates changes in thinking, revolutionary changes.

I realize that you disagree with me and that I am unlikely to change your mind, but I felt I had to try (and I hope I did so in a respectful manner) nonetheless. It is my sincere belief that a Republican Presidency - particularly if they can somehow hold both the house and Senate... it is my belief that such a thing would speed our way towards the absolute destruction of the world as we know it. I do not think I am exaggerating the dangers. The years 2000-2008 demonstrated what can and will happen under the power of extremist conservatives who hold most of the world in contempt.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. I don't think we disagree very much.

From long experience, (I'm 72 and always vote, and have done injury to nose on many occasions), I am sure that my vote won't count. Your argument rests on "might" and "maybe". I find that likelihood infinitesimally small. I refuse to vote in fear of what might be. I have chosen to vote for the candidate I prefer confident in the belief that my vote will no effect whatsoever in the outcome.

It's kind of liberating.

[daleanime]

27. +1

[randome]

5. We should hedge our bets and support both candidates and let voters decide who gets the nod.

Instead, Sanders supporters (on DU, anyways) realize they can't overcome Clinton's delegate lead and waste their energy on trying to tear down the front-runner.

If the 'revolutionary' can't win without denigrating someone else, that's just more evidence that it was never much of a revolution in the first place.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[salinsky]

6. Tru dat

... you nailed it.

[NurseJackie]

11. Thank you! This needed to be said!

[davidthegnome]

12. There's plenty of blame to go around.

I have seen some pretty ignorant, pretty terrible things said by both sides of this debate. I do not think, for instance, that Clinton's current delegate lead (once we exclude the super delegates, who really shouldn't count just yet) is so extreme that it cannot be passed by Sanders. Nor do I think that Sanders is absolutely going to win. Both candidates have been denigrating each other, this is what happens in primaries, they fight each other - and we, their supporters, do the same. We can, however, exchange snark, engage in passionate debates and so on without it devolving into hatred and contempt for each other. We can, I hope, for the most part, agree on the basic things we want and need to move forward... the difference is primarily in how we hope to accomplish change.

Also, with no intended offense or disrespect, this revolution isn't just about Sanders, or Sanders supporters. It's about... I would say, a genuine social uprising (not the violent sort, thank the Universe) and enlightenment. People are becoming more and more aware of how rigged the system is, how powerful the financial powers really are. I feel that we're starting to wake up and discover that we've been screwed for years, but are only now getting angry enough to do something about it.

This revolution belongs to you as much as to Sanders or his supporters. It belongs to all of us. We should take it, own it, move forward and fight that uphill battle for a return to sanity, to empathy and compassion, to a genuine social evolution and revolution. Whether we support the same candidate or not, I feel that the years to come will engage all of us in this revolution - and it's about time. Change is coming, whether we want it or not. The choice is between (I feel) how we want that change to come about.

[randome]

14. I think Sanders could still pull it off, too! AND he could beat Trump!

But I don't think it's going to happen. And I get the need for revolution. I really do. I have two 18 year old daughters and I want them to graduate knowing they don't have to fight against yet another entrenched Conservative mindset. I think the future is looking better for them for reasons I stated: the decline of the GOP and white male power, two sides of the same coin.

And yes, there has been far too much vitriol leveled from both sides when we shouldn't even recognize the concept of 'sides' in the first place, at least not so far as we are all Democrats and working to make the world better.

Clinton or Sanders will be a fine President. We should support all our candidates, not choose sides. That's what the Tea Party did and look at what it's doing to the GOP.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Scootaloo]

28. We should support both candidates.

...Except of course, Bernie Sanders, apparently.

Interesting argument.

[MineralMan]

7. Yup! K&R

That's what I've always done, and will continue to do.

[Coincidence]

8. And then next cycle both parties will shuffle a bit more to the right, then rinse, repeat...

Seems just like what we've been doing for the past 30 years already, and a sure way continue it for decades to come.

[randome]

10. With the GOP self-destructing and white males becoming a minority, the future is unknown.

Of course it's always unknown but you know what I mean.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Coincidence]

16. Yeah, i'm just feeling deja vu, every election it's now imperative that we stop the GOP or else...

It's becoming apparent that the DNC is fear-herding us.

[840high]

18. Fear-herding does not

work on me this time around.

[randome]

19. The 80s-90s frame of reference was that we needed to move a little right.

Just to survive in a political sense.

Any of us can agree or disagree that was the correct thing to do but that was the mindset. I think with the GOP in decline, their danger actually grows even more. But they are in decline and I think everyone sees that now.

It may take a little bit for our political side to realize they don't need to be afraid of them any longer but I think it will happen.

And then? If you take fear of the GOP out of the equation, might that not be the right conditions for a resurgence of Progressiveness?

That's my hope.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Jester Messiah]

13. Your vote is, of course, yours.

Do with it what you will.

[liberal_at_heart]

15. I am tired of Democrats being too afraid to talk about raising taxes and then caving to cuts

to social services and then caving to tax cuts to the rich. They are about to forgive $400 billion in corporate overseas tax shelters. That money could go towards education, food stamps, WIC, SS, SSI, SSDI, and healthcare. I will not say on DU who I will vote for in November, but I haven't heard one convincing argument yet why I should vote for the Democratic nominee in November if it is Hillary.

[socialistforpeople]

17. We need real change.

Let's be honest here, she will just continue the downward trend to climate change, she is supported by fossil fuel companies, do you think they will stop extracting oil offshore and fracking if she's in Office? Highly doubt that.
2.)The economy is going to crash soon, unless we get money out of politics, but Hillary is supported by the same banks that will and has crash the economy. Do you think Hillary will stop that gravy train? Not at all..
3.)The US will continue their influence in the Middle East and in illegal drug trade. Hillary makes so much money off regime change that the same mantra of "Interventionism" and make countries "democratic" will make other countries continue to hate America.

I am tired of having to pick between the two lesser evils. And we all need a political revolution to reject Establishment politics.And that will take a lot of work and many working people to all join together for real change, and make the government work for the 90%. You may think I'm being unrealistic but without these "dreams" or "fantasies" The United States would not even exist. The Founding Fathers dreamed for a better place where they wanted free speech. And they didn't let the ruling class dictate who or where they can go to express that freedom.

[davidthegnome]

21. The ruling class has always dictated.

What changed was who ruled the ruling class. The founders of this Nation supported free speech... for some people. The founders of this Nation supported opportunity and equality... for some people. What makes this age so different, what I believe makes Sanders so different, is that he supports these things for ALL people. He is not a member of the ruling class, he is not a ruler of the ruling class. I do not think the things you want are dreams, fantasies, or unrealistic. I think that the strength of our emotions, our intentions, our passionate beliefs and principles moves our Country - and the world forward. This revolution is in thought, in ideal, it goes well beyond which candidate or even which policies we prefer.

Now... as to who funds the Clinton campaign among the corporations... yeah, I've got some issues with that. That does not mean that once in office she will work for them. I could make any number of statements about fools and their money that could apply here. Will Clinton be more friendly to corporations, to the 1%? Absolutely - but she has her own money, her own base of power, if and when elected President, she will not have to obey their will... at least, I don't think she will.

Another question to ask is can anyone stop the gravy train... the corporate subsidies, the overwhelming strength, wealth, power and influence of the MIC and the corporations. The answer, I think, is no - not working alone. Sanders will need every one of his supporters and many, many more people in order to fight this battle. I am happy to engage, I think we can win, but it's not up to either Sanders or Clinton... it's up to all of us.

Whatever our race, our color, our gender, our sexual orientation, our background... we are Americans. We will make these changes we want and need - we will fight the good fight, by uniting among ourselves. No one person or even candidate can accomplish any of these things alone. Nor can they fail by themselves. It is up to US to fail or succeed.

Fantasies become realities. Dreams become realities. I believe you should absolutely fight for what you believe in. I believe there are some ways to do that that make more sense than others. We need numbers, votes, we need the overwhelming strength of the American people and the American spirit. Who ever wants to lead us in this fight has my full support, but they will be but a leader among equals, because this is OUR fight.

[socialistforpeople]

30. Very true.

I agree with you on the majority of what you, and especially on the fact change can only happen when everyone of us fight towards that equality and rights. And yes, all of us Americans need to unite, because their is a very real power oppressing us for pure control.
But Hillary, she has been given that base of power, because she has worked for the 1%. All the money she has received is because of all the regime change and many other things, has greatly profited George Soros and many others. I do agree she would slow down the ultimate downhill this country is going, compared to any GOP candidate. But she still works for them, and there is no accountability she has had that would make me believe she cares. She help create the power vacuum in Libya, she and her Clinton foundation has given VCS Mining company,that donates to her foundation, incredible freedom to mine in Haiti without the Haiti governments involvement.
But I do believe on what you say we all need to do, and that is to fight.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

26. Climate Change is the number one reason I support Bernie.

And the number one reason I can't agree with your OP.

I completely disagree that the woman who spent much of her term as SoS pushing fracking worldwide and KXL domestically would be any better than the other Republicans on climate change. Just being willing to admit it exists does nothing. We have to have a nominee who actually believes in leaving fossil fuels unburned, in the ground.

[darkwing]

29. Don't forget the veto.

Rebublicans currently hold both chambers of Congress. A lot of crazy stuff doesn't happen because of the presidential veto. Even if you can't get everything you want it's still better than getting a whole lot more you don't want.

[PonyUp]

31. I will vote my conscience for the true Democrat in this election. n/t

[beedle]

32. do you

Last edited Fri Mar 11, 2016, 09:01 PM - Edit history (1)

want a president that good people will fight against every step of the way then they try and implement bad policies?

Or do you want a president those same good people will mindless support when they try and implement bad policies?

Difficult choice.

Those 'good people' need to wake the fuck up and stand for GOOD POLICIES rather than the cult of Clinton ... I don't support Clinton because I don't trust her (although I don't,) but because if elected none of her supporters will hold her to a progressive agenda ... they will only make excuses for every bad policy she implements.