Americans May Be Too Religious To Embrace Socialism

[Yavin4]

If you want America to be more like Europe, you need a cultural revolution, not a political one. For example, if we went to a Single Payer healthcare system, you would have to convince large swaths of the American people to accept that the government would pay for women' reproductive healthcare. That's a big hurdle to overcome.

But will the U.S. join much of Western Europe in developing a successful socialist political tradition? Short of that, will the Sanders campaign ignite a new movement? Both are unlikely, at least for now, and a big part of the explanation why may lie in religion — religion inhibits socialism’s spread and explains its lack of political mobilization.


The conventional wisdom is that the individualist, evangelical style of American religion is a strong antidote to socialism. If faith alone can lead you to salvation, then efforts to reshape society are beside the point. But the animosity between them has been more pointed, especially regarding so called “Godless communists” who portrayed religion as the “opiate of the masses.” In these data, those who agreed that social problems would be resolved if enough people had a personal relationship with God were 20 percent less socialist than those who disagreed. A worldview that pits faith directly against collective action explains clearly why collectivist efforts have traditionally foundered in the U.S.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/americans-may-be-too-religious-to-embrace-socialism/

[libtodeath]

1. So we just give up?

[Yavin4]

9. *sigh* Why the knee-jerk response?

The data is providing you with information on which to develop a political strategy. No one is saying "give up". What they are saying is that you have to take analysis into consideration when developing a strategy.

There are millions of religious folks in this country (Evangelicals, Mormons, Catholics, etc.). They have votes, and if you want a socialist agenda, you have to figure out a way to get their votes.

[libtodeath]

11. That is what politics is always about so I dont get the whole it sounds just too hard attitude.

[Yavin4]

15. So, you prefer building a political/legislative strategy without looking at data?

Or, should a political/legislative strategy incorporate data in order to get where you want to go?

[libtodeath]

22. What is your solution and time frame to get things changed?

[Yavin4]

26. Progressives have to win congressional elections in red states.

You cannot get anything done without the congress, and if you leave the red states to the fundies, then it's a wash.

[libtodeath]

30. What is the plan to do that?

I will opt for bold and inspiring leadership building a national agenda.

[Armstead]

69. Then find progressives who have the characteristics of their constituencies...AND

Also have the goddamn national Democratic Party support them instead of making up excuses and/or scuttle them because "this won't work because the electorate is too conservative" like they are trying to do to Sanders.

[notadmblnd]

25. Well it must be that these people wear their religion just for show

Because if I'm not mistaken, Jesus was all abut administering to the sick, feeding the hungry and helping the poor.

In other words Jesus was all about socialism.

[3catwoman3]

41. You are not mistaken.

I think Jesus would be completely appalled by many things done by those who claim to be his followers.

Gandhi nailed it when he said, "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are not very like your Christ." (apologies for any possible paraphrase - I didn't look it up before quoting it)

(content questioning agnostic UU here)

[morningfog]

27. Jerk for jerk.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. I hope we find out in November.

[beam me up scottie]

3. That's what we need! More Jesus and less justice!!!

Less lgbt and women's rights, less health care and education, and more religion!

Let's put more straight Christians in positions of power!

Hillary 2016: Because we don't deserve better.

[Yavin4]

19. No. That's not what the analysis says.

It says that religion is a roadblock on collectivist action. Figure out a path around that roadblock to get the things that we want.

[beam me up scottie]

23. Oh please, it's a dog whistle.

We get the message, and we reject it

[Lizzie Poppet]

24. Of course, if they actually ACTED like Jesus instead of just invoking him...

...they wouldn't be so opposed to socialism.

[beam me up scottie]

31. WWRJD?

[Lizzie Poppet]

38. Excellent! (nt)

[radical noodle]

52. We can't overlook the fact

that many Republicans prefer to see the ill die in the streets.

[Mnpaul]

65. Supply Side Jesus

[fun n serious]

74. You could look at it that way..

I see it as " free will."

[NurseJackie]

4. Weird, huh?

[Octafish]

5. Liberation Theology brought up that very idea.

It resonates, seeing how Christianity is all about loving God and loving one another because (or as if) God is in the other person, just like in you.

[Punkingal]

8. Well, it's supposed to be, anyway.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. And yet Jesus might be said to have been the original socialist.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

7. I'm frankly a little tired of religious extremists deciding what we can and can't have.

Universal healthcare benefits everyone. Don't like it? I hear Algeria is nice this time of year.

[Oilwellian]

14. +1 n/t

[TheFarS1de]

10. ....and they may not .

I should become a reporter . If all you have to do is speculate and make it up as you go .

[JFKDem62]

12. They said America was too racist to elect Obama.

We are finally moving into the 21st century and the old rules are going by the way side.

[Yavin4]

18. Point me to the data analysis link that said that. Thank you. n/t

[Arazi]

28. Heres one but there were quite a few at the time

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/barone/2008/06/24/are-americans-too-racist-to-vote-for-barack-obama-for-president

It really was a discussion point

[Yavin4]

34. Thank you for supporting my point

Obama took that data into account and designed an election strategy to account for it. He lost the White vote, 72% to 39% in 2012.


http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/

[Arazi]

43. So Sanders can craft an election strategy as well

If he's facing Trump, this election will be nothing like the past and I'd say the religious issues may (dare I say it) finally take second place to discussions about xenophobia, torture, fascism etc

[Yavin4]

45. What about his legislative strategy?

If he were to win, his agenda is much, much larger than Obama's.

[Arazi]

51. Sure is but I'm in the camp that believes you start from the largest position

when sitting at the negotiating table.

The Presidency has the "Dreamer in Chief" role as one of its jobs. Go to the moon, transform voting rights, institute national pollution controls, anti-nuclear proliferation treaties, rural electrification, national highway system - all of these were big unrealistic dreams at one time.

Someone had to articulate these ideas even as they had no idea how that would evolve in the Congress. Some never managed to effect that idea during their presidency (JFK and his man on the moon speech in 1961) but the idea took hold and created an enormous space race (man goes to moon 1969i that has transformed our world in so many ways.

You have to start though with the big idea. I don't know if Bernie can get even one idea passed but his ideas MUST pass sooner or later. We need universal healthcare as a right. We need to get corruption out of government. We need to stop interfering in the Middle East

[JFKDem62]

42. We have become accustomed to Obama in the WH. But a decade ago, it was unthinkable.

Your question brings me a lot of pleasure, it means that times have changed
to the point young people cannot even imagine what the times were like before Obama was elected.
Wow, amazing in a really neat way.

Just like when I was young, women getting into any professional/graduate program was difficult.
Today, it is difficult to believe that could have happened.

Racism and sexism were both rampant and widespread.
A female or AA being elected president was totally unthinkable.
It is sad but true.

We do have the Democratic Party to thank for the many advances we enjoy and take for granted today.

[awake]

13. Oh thats right because the golden rule is "un-Christian"

Taking care of people, doing to others as you would wants others to do unto you, these are so anti religion?

[Armymedic88]

16. It's unfortunate that most Christians don't read the whole book...

Matthew 19:21-
Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

[Human101948]

17. Calvinists: You're poor because God hates you...

How, then, was one to know if they were one of the elect? The answer: material success. If a businessman's coffers were fat and he was benefiting from what appeared to be a shrewd and effective business acumen, then surely it is evidence that the Almighty had smiled on him, welcoming him, perhaps, into the Divine's august company. This, of course, is a ready-made philosophy for any self-flattering elite - no matter what the century - anxious to justify their good fortune as divinely mandated.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/21526-calvin-and-jobs-why-the-right-hates-but-still-needs-social-welfare

[Nonhlanhla]

48. Actually there are two kinds of Calvinism

There is right wing Calvinism of the kind you describe. And there is left wing Calvinism, which is basically the opposite.

In South Africa, where I grew up, Calvinism gave rise to apartheid. It was also an important part of the resistance to apartheid. While some Calvinist churches are extremely conservative, their conservatism tends to be different from the conservatism of evangelicalism, which is rooted in a different religious tradition. And other churches in the Calvinist tradition are extremely liberal: the Presbyterian Church (USA), the United Church of Christ, etc.

Not to defend Calvinism against well-deserved criticism, but the picture is complex.

[Human101948]

56. Glad to hear that there are some good Calvinists...

In this country Calvinists are the inspiration for the following observation--

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. John Kenneth Galbraith


Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/johnkennet107301.html

[Nonhlanhla]

58. I am well aware of Calvinism in this country

I've lived here for nearly 20 years, and did my Ph.D. in theology here. The good Calvinists include the Presbyterian Church USA (very concerned with social justice, ordains gays, etc.), the United Church of Christ (Obama's denomination), etc.

We're a mixed bag!

[winter is coming]

20. Acts 2:44-45

"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and they sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all, according as any man had need."

Apparently, the word of God isn't for the people of God?

[Armymedic88]

21. It's rather embarrassing sometimes what fellow Christians spew

[Cobalt Violet]

29. 538 is not a credible source of info

[Yavin4]

35. Why not? n/t

[merrily]

32. Which religion advocates not sharing with the needy?

[restorefreedom]

67. selfish capitalism, sometimes in the guise of christianity

not a slam on all christians, just the fake republican ones

[The2ndWheel]

33. Government and religion are both organized efforts

All organized efforts compete against each other. All organized efforts want the world to be molded into its particular image. One has to replace the other. You have to replace God with The State.

[thereismore]

36. Jesus was a socialist Jew. He shared everything with his disciples and warned about love of money.

[Scootaloo]

37. Also too agnostic to accept coupons for dairy queen.

What does agnosticism have to do with a buy one get one free blizzard? Nothing. but it must be true!

[bravenak]

57. I want an atheist prez

[Scootaloo]

62. Interesting

Supporting Hillary Clinton while wanting an atheist president is a lot like advocating a vegan lifestyle while eating a box of McNuggets.

[bravenak]

63. I do that too

I talk about clensing out while smoking a bowl.
Talk about excersizing while eating donuts. It is what it is. Honestly, I discuss working out all the time but I'm always eating instead. Might get fat maybe.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Europe isn't religious?

who knew.

[Land Shark]

40. Good Lord, most religions are socialist

It was only in response to FDRs successful New Deal, promoted with religiius references, that they tried to harness Christianit for conservative political purposes, leading to "under God" in the 50s, etc.

To this day, religion goes both ways politically so the assumptions in the title of this piece are pretty massive and controversial.

[Lone_Wolf]

44. 538 overlooks US history

The business elites in the US have been hostile towards socialists and the progressive labor movement. Religion is just one of their tools.

[ConsiderThis_2016]

46. The Fundies Fled the King...

...Go figure

[Goblinmonger]

47. Christians are why we can't have nice stuff?

[Nonhlanhla]

49. Religion and socialism are quite compatible

But in practical matters, single payer would present a problem in the US because of abortion.

[merrily]

50. PS Note the use of MAY. We could also say, Americans MAY be too sexist to vote for a woman POTUS.

Or, Americans MAY be too diverse to vote for a WASP.

Using MAY, you can say almost anything at all. And fsck 538 for throwing Medicare for All under the bus in its zeal to help Hillary, which is approaching insane levels. It's already thrown it's own credibility under the bus trying to create self-fulfilling prophesies that help her.

[senz]

53. Here's what Bernie had to say about it -- and an evangelical response.

It's only about six minutes, gets a bit drippy with the music, but it's Bernie, and it's real.

[ibegurpard]

54. Back to New Deal economic policy

That's all it is.

[NCTraveler]

55. I'm not very religious.

I don't embrace socialism but I have no fear of the concept either.

Then again, we don't have a socialist running so it isn't a concern except for republicans who call both Clinton and Sanders socialists.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. Politics is a major component of our culture so the premise that they are separate things is wrong.

The Acts of the Apostles is so full of Socialism that if you quote it to Christians they think it's Karl Marx. 'From each according to ability, to each according to need' is New Testament and it is what the people who knew Jesus in the story did when he was gone and they were trying to live righteously without him. They pooled all resources and shared according to need, 100%.
The first couple to hold some back for themselves were struck dead by God. Struck dead by God voluntarily. I mean to say it surprised everyone watching, and it was two separate events. They both lied, both died.

Once the discussion is on, and it is, religion has no choice but to acknowledge their own damn texts at some point. Sermons will be preached, and alter calls will be made and many will be answered.


But without looking at the link, how much too religious does 538 say Michigan is?

[G_j]

60. U.S. Public Becoming Less Religious

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/11/03/u-s-public-becoming-less-religious/

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. However, Methodists are thought key to the start of the Labour Party and unions in the UK

Methodism has been linked to the formation of reformist groups and trade union movements. John Wesley's practice of encouraging working people to become lay-preachers, alongside their paid jobs, gave them valuable experience of public speaking. Later some of these went on to become trade union leaders and were instrumental in the formation of the Labour Party in the late nineteenth century.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/subdivisions/methodist_1.shtml

THE LABOUR MOVEMENT is not something which is easy to define in precise
terms but it can adequately be described 'as a broad-based endeavour for the
betterment of men and women of the working classes'. It began in the early years
of the nineteenth century and culminated in the birth of the Labour Party at the
start of the twentieth. The English Labour Movement was not in itself explicitly
religious but it was nevertheless permeated by religion both in its origin and in its
subsequent development. Its roots lay in three areas in particular: the French
revolutionary spirit of 'liberty, fraternity and equality', early Owenite socialism and
John Wesley's Methodist religion of the poor.

http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/anvil/14-1_036.pdf

Then, of course, there's liberation theology.

[kgnu_fan]

64. Pope to church benefactors: We don’t need your blood money

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/pope-to-church-benefactors-we-dont-need-your-blood-money/2016/03/02/0c63cb56-e06f-11e5-8c00-8aa03741dced_story.html

VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis has a message for church benefactors: The church doesn’t want your money if it comes from exploited workers.

Francis railed against employers who mistreat and underpay their workers during his general audience Wednesday. It’s a theme the Jesuit pope has frequently emphasized, denouncing how the wealthy exploit the poor and working class for their own profit, often subjecting workers to slave-like conditions.

Francis told the crowd in a sunny St. Peter’s Square that when he thinks about church benefactors who offer donations that are “fruit of the blood” of exploited workers, he tells them: “Please, take your checks back and burn them.”

He added: “The people of God and the church don’t need dirty money. They need hearts that are open to the mercy of God.”

* I think all great teaching (religion or otherwise) says the same thing: Share what you have with everyone. Peace.

[bullwinkle428]

66. I think "Pope Nate's" facade of "infallibility" was completely shattered the other night.

"Hillary has a 99%+ chance of winning in Michigan!"

[november3rd]

68. Socialism is Christian in Origin

Check out

Noyes, John Humphrey, 1811-1886: History of American Socialisms (Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott and Co., 1870)

oh, yeah... there's also Acts 2:44, 45

[Attorney in Texas]

70. First, that's bullshit because Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid and national parks are socialism

and Americans have well and truly embraced them.

Second, the anti-progressive Bible Belt has pretty much already spoken and they did not turn out strong enough to end the primary and this region is basically irrelevant to the general election because no Republican has to campaign there because those states are a lock for them.

[LWolf]

71. Err...no.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/9/16/1421659/-An-Evangelical-responds-to-Sanders-speech-at-Liberty-U

[beedle]

72. Why would single payer have to be any different

that what exists now?

Any health care arrangement needs to deal with these same problems.

Even the old private insurance system had to, and would continue to have to, deal with that issue.

This is nonsense .. the religious right is a force that needs 'dealing with' no matter what 'the bent' of the government.

One might even argue that single payer would be beneficial for the religious right anti-abortion side, as when there is a single large access point into the system then there is only one point they have to attack in order to invoke their anti-abortion agenda onto others.

[99Forever]

73. Another lame ass NO WE CAN'T post...

...from the usual source.