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Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:01 PM

American Revolution (Phase Two)

“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
-- Declaration of Independence; July 4, 1776.


At the time of the American revolution, about a third of the colonists supported the Patriots, another third were Loyalists, and the remaining third were neutral. I find myself thinking of this today, while reviewing the outcome of yesterday’s primaries. Especially so, when I read comments by my good friends who support Hillary Clinton, who are convinced that we -- the Sanders revolutionaries -- should recognize that in several primaries, Bernie is “only” getting a third of the Democratic votes.

Are we ready to give up? More, are we prepared to throw in with the Clinton campaign? The answer, of course, is, “No. Not even close.”

It’s not that we disagree with their position that, among the “royal families” that rule this country, Hillary Clinton is among the nicest individuals. Hillary doesn’t advocate the brutal treatment of US citizens, in the manner of, say, Donald Trump. Her policies of extreme violence are specifically aimed at foreign people, who refuse to acknowledge the supremacy of the US ruling class.

Other Clinton supporters point out the significance of electing the first female president. This is, for me, the only possible reason to consider supporting Hillary at this time. But when I think back on Margaret Thatcher, the “Iron Lady” of England, I am confronted with the harsh reality that all politicians must be evaluated as individuals, rather than by genitalia-identification. I can say that not a single one of my relatives from the Old Sod found a single advantage under Thatcher’s rule. Quite the opposite.

All credit goes to the Clinton campaign on their victories thus far. Still, we expected them to do better in the southeast/ bible belt. We’ve been fighting on their territory, their home turf. And, truth be told, our side has done much better than anticipated. So much so, that now we are in a much better strategic position -- heading into the stretch leading up to the Democratic National Convention -- than even I had hoped for.

So, no ….we aren’t tired, discouraged, or injured in any way what so ever. No, we are not even thinking of quitting, and falling in behind the establishment candidate. Not even close.

We understand that, due to the unexpected strength of Bernie Sanders’s campaign, something that no Team Clinton supporter anticipated, that we are now confronted not only by the establishment of our own political party, but by the full force of the machine that was intent upon making “Bush vs. Clinton” the main event in 2016. That isn’t going to happen, now, is it?

The Sanders revolution is in the tradition of the patriots in the Revolutionary War. Our struggle is in the spirit of that Declaration of Independence. We really do not identify our friends who are Loyalists to the establishment’s crown as our “enemies.” You are good and sincere people ….but you are confused. You are frightened, and seek the comfort and security that the establishment promises to those who behave as prescribed by the crown.

Our side is only warming up for battle.

Peace,
H2O Man

160 replies, 5210 views

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Arrow 160 replies Author Time Post
Reply American Revolution (Phase Two) (Original post)
H2O Man Mar 2016 OP
bigtree Mar 2016 #1
H2O Man Mar 2016 #5
bigtree Mar 2016 #14
H2O Man Mar 2016 #17
bigtree Mar 2016 #18
H2O Man Mar 2016 #32
bigtree Mar 2016 #54
H2O Man Mar 2016 #57
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #97
H2O Man Mar 2016 #103
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #106
Hortensis Mar 2016 #8
H2O Man Mar 2016 #21
Hortensis Mar 2016 #25
H2O Man Mar 2016 #37
Hortensis Mar 2016 #41
H2O Man Mar 2016 #42
Hortensis Mar 2016 #43
H2O Man Mar 2016 #44
Hortensis Mar 2016 #47
H2O Man Mar 2016 #48
Hortensis Mar 2016 #49
H2O Man Mar 2016 #52
tk2kewl Mar 2016 #95
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #101
tk2kewl Mar 2016 #94
KittyWampus Mar 2016 #116
H2O Man Mar 2016 #119
Hortensis Mar 2016 #137
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #140
mariawr Mar 2016 #139
malthaussen Mar 2016 #151
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #102
H2O Man Mar 2016 #105
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #107
H2O Man Mar 2016 #109
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #113
KittyWampus Mar 2016 #118
H2O Man Mar 2016 #121
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #141
Samantha Mar 2016 #45
H2O Man Mar 2016 #50
Samantha Mar 2016 #56
H2O Man Mar 2016 #58
malthaussen Mar 2016 #152
KittyWampus Mar 2016 #120
H2O Man Mar 2016 #123
Blus4u Mar 2016 #2
H2O Man Mar 2016 #6
Merryland Mar 2016 #3
H2O Man Mar 2016 #7
malthaussen Mar 2016 #153
SheenaR Mar 2016 #4
H2O Man Mar 2016 #11
tk2kewl Mar 2016 #9
H2O Man Mar 2016 #12
marions ghost Mar 2016 #99
haikugal Mar 2016 #10
H2O Man Mar 2016 #15
haikugal Mar 2016 #24
H2O Man Mar 2016 #125
haikugal Mar 2016 #130
malthaussen Mar 2016 #154
KoKo Mar 2016 #13
H2O Man Mar 2016 #22
Jenny_92808 Mar 2016 #16
H2O Man Mar 2016 #23
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #144
Gregorian Mar 2016 #19
H2O Man Mar 2016 #26
Gregorian Mar 2016 #31
H2O Man Mar 2016 #33
mmonk Mar 2016 #20
H2O Man Mar 2016 #28
BillZBubb Mar 2016 #104
mmonk Mar 2016 #145
peacebird Mar 2016 #27
H2O Man Mar 2016 #29
farleftlib Mar 2016 #30
H2O Man Mar 2016 #34
marions ghost Mar 2016 #100
H2O Man Mar 2016 #122
99Forever Mar 2016 #35
H2O Man Mar 2016 #38
nc4bo Mar 2016 #36
H2O Man Mar 2016 #39
Uncle Joe Mar 2016 #40
H2O Man Mar 2016 #59
Jefferson23 Mar 2016 #46
H2O Man Mar 2016 #61
Jefferson23 Mar 2016 #65
CajunBlazer Mar 2016 #51
H2O Man Mar 2016 #55
hack89 Mar 2016 #85
WDIM Mar 2016 #53
H2O Man Mar 2016 #69
Ghost Dog Mar 2016 #127
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #60
H2O Man Mar 2016 #66
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #67
H2O Man Mar 2016 #68
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #72
H2O Man Mar 2016 #78
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #81
H2O Man Mar 2016 #82
H2O Man Mar 2016 #90
Buzz cook Mar 2016 #62
H2O Man Mar 2016 #70
Buzz cook Mar 2016 #146
malthaussen Mar 2016 #155
dana_b Mar 2016 #63
H2O Man Mar 2016 #71
polly7 Mar 2016 #64
H2O Man Mar 2016 #74
polly7 Mar 2016 #76
H2O Man Mar 2016 #80
polly7 Mar 2016 #83
H2O Man Mar 2016 #128
polly7 Mar 2016 #138
malthaussen Mar 2016 #156
polly7 Mar 2016 #159
PonyUp Mar 2016 #73
H2O Man Mar 2016 #75
ebayfool Mar 2016 #77
H2O Man Mar 2016 #79
surrealAmerican Mar 2016 #84
H2O Man Mar 2016 #87
surrealAmerican Mar 2016 #89
H2O Man Mar 2016 #91
malthaussen Mar 2016 #157
Autumn Mar 2016 #86
H2O Man Mar 2016 #88
Sensitive soul Mar 2016 #92
H2O Man Mar 2016 #98
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #136
Martin Eden Mar 2016 #93
H2O Man Mar 2016 #110
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #96
H2O Man Mar 2016 #112
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #115
H2O Man Mar 2016 #129
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #131
BillZBubb Mar 2016 #108
H2O Man Mar 2016 #114
KittyWampus Mar 2016 #111
H2O Man Mar 2016 #117
grossproffit Mar 2016 #124
H2O Man Mar 2016 #126
islandmkl Mar 2016 #132
H2O Man Mar 2016 #134
Zorra Mar 2016 #133
H2O Man Mar 2016 #142
jeepers Mar 2016 #135
H2O Man Mar 2016 #143
malthaussen Mar 2016 #147
H2O Man Mar 2016 #148
malthaussen Mar 2016 #149
kgnu_fan Mar 2016 #150
Waiting For Everyman Mar 2016 #158
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2016 #160

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:08 PM

1. seriously?

...confused? frightened?

Smh.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:11 PM

5. Seriously.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:39 PM

14. the 'low information' criticism?

...you keep positing that supporters hold different values than Hillary supporters. Not having the ability to actually determine the values of Hillary supporters, you've supplanted those with your own broad-brush version of their view of the 'establishment' and concluded there's some undue fealty to this nebulous foe (a fight which has, so far, focused on little more than denouncing any and all who dare associate themselves with Clinton).

I find a political revolution (especially a clumsy, ill-conceived, and opportunistic one like Sanders') in the ebbing wake of a successful two-term Democratic presidency to be the height of political hubris. This campaign has all the hallmarks of Sander's decades-long arms-length treatment of the Democratic party, complete with the premise that only Sanders could possibly care about the progressive ideals he represents.

Thing is, political change involves much more than just agitating for it. In order to advance those ideals and initiatives through our democratic system of governance, we are challenged to form coalitions of support within and without the legislative arena. While most here might well agree with Sanders' platform, there is a gap in belief that he's the right person to make those a reality.

It doesn't take any deep digging to find that rationale among Hillary's supporters. It's a wonder why anyone would develop a line of reasoning which envelops citizens with no more influence than the next candidate supporter with the worst that's been projected on the candidate herself. What's the value in that? It's a false projection, on its face, given the obvious diversity of opinion and interest among us.

No Hillary supporter here is 'afraid' or 'confused' about their choice, and Sanders supporters don't own progressiveness. And we're just as much patriots as anyone. That you would make an analogy between loyalty to King George and independence...smh.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #14)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:43 PM

17. In the "title"

of your post, you attribute something to me that isn't accurate. It's nothing that I've said, or intend to say. Hence, the rest of your post must be viewed within the context of that error.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:47 PM

18. how do you define 'confused?'

...you're off the deep end with this one. Politely insulting people here.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #18)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:21 PM

32. Well, luckily for you

and I, your friend who is speaking with you here has added a couple of wonder examples of that confusion. Though I won't go as far as to say she speaks for you, it is safe to say -- based upon your failure to respond to her nonsense -- that you are okay with her adding to your sentiments.

Even here on DU:GDP, we witness the daily confusion of many (not "all" of this community's Hillary supporters. Deep down, they know that without progressives -- those from the Democratic Party and Democratic Left -- that if Clinton wins the nomination, she/you will need the progressives to win in November. The only alternative would be if she/you are able to get enough republicans to vote for Hillary .....which is a possibility. Indeed, I am convinced that many of her top strategists are banking on this.

You, as an individual, know that I am representative of the small group of progressives who could -- if we desire -- convince other progressives to vote for Hillary if she is our party's nominee. Hence, you are in a different place than your funny friend, when it comes to responding to my OP's.

Make sense?

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #32)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:03 PM

54. just stop

...I can speak for myself, in fact, I have. The fact that I don't respond to every poster here means nothing. I work full-time in a very labor-intensive job and I just don't have the time or interest to engage in every argument presented here. Bizarre to have to explain that.

The goal in this election is to defeat the republican nominee. It's not just Hillary supporters who are challenged to make up the difference in numbers needed to make that happen. I'm not inclined to hold anyone's hand here who thinks they need a warm feeling to join our Democratic coalition in November.

We've seen repeated lectures from supporters here about the importance of independents and republicans in the general - that allowing them to choose our nominee in open-primary states, as many have backed Sanders, is something defensible. Suggesting that Hillary is actively appealing to republicans is pure bunk. She's not doing that, however, the Sanders campaign has actually benefited from republican pac money spent alongside of the campaign's own in almost every primary state against Hillary. Some appeal of hers to republicans. It's pure sophistry.

Participating in some epic pout over Hillary as the nominee (after the prospect for Sanders has evaporated) isn't something virtuous, it's self-serving. The party is a coalition, and you'd be deluding yourself to imagine that ANY of us come to support this party or candidate with the expectation that all of our interests or concerns will receive the best hearing or representation.

We join together out of the necessity of strength in numbers. The alternative is a republican victory. Holding out for your ideals in a primary makes perfect sense; projecting that intransigence to the general election is a defiance of not only history, but common sense. You are responsible for what you do politically; not Hillary supporters. You either back the eventual nominee (when that's determined), or you risk the republican alternative. It's not complicated.

That holds true, no matter if the nominee is Hillary or Sanders. Polling has consistently shown that the overwhelming majority of Democrats would be fine with either candidate in November; the 300 or so DUers who regularly rec Sanders' posts here, notwithstanding.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #54)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:10 PM

57. No, thank you.

The primary is not over.

For sake of accuracy -- and focusing on "values" -- almost every day (excluding days that I'm not here), I make a point of telling some other Bernie supporters to not insult people who happen to support Hillary Clinton. That isn't limited to my OP's -- I do so on OP/threads that others start. I do not expect a pat on my humbly bowed head for doing so. It's just a value.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #57)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 09:19 AM

97. Thank you H2O Man.

I do not have gracious patience like you do.

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Response to kgnu_fan (Reply #97)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:01 AM

103. Thanks!

Bigtree and I are friends. He is a good liberal. If Bernie wins our party's nomination, he will work just as hard as if Hillary wins the nomination. While I obviously do not speak for him, I believe that he is sincerely concerned about the very real divide between the two campaigns.

However, there is absolutely zero chance of unity between our two sides in the general election, unless there is unity within each group during the primaries. And, at this point, the Hillary campaign appears almost fully united in dismissing the values of the Sanders campaign. Perhaps he should address that, before attempting to tell the Sanders movement what he thinks we need to be doing.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #103)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:11 AM

106. Not only you are rational but you have a generous heart of understanding.

I wish to grow one.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #1)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:22 PM

8. LOL. Go! Go make yourselves a party, H20 Man,

if you are not too confused and frightened to do it. Goodness knows, no one in the whole world will stop you. You're like dysfunctional relatives living in the converted garage.

So, go! Cut the dependence! Be! Let the world finally trample our 224-year-old Democratic Party into the mud of history as it rushes to your banner!

You truly have nothing to fear but fear itself.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #8)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:55 PM

21. Attention Bernie Supporters!

I don't know why, Bernie supporters, but sometimes while reading DU, I am reminded of a tiny, shivering chihuahua, barking furiously at the image of a great lion on a television screen.

Anyhow, does the above post not illustrate the problem the Clinton campaign faces? They know they will need the progressives of the Democratic Party and Democratic Left, should their candidate win the nomination. But a lot of them really dislike us.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #21)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:01 PM

25. You're afraid to move out on your own.

You are afraid of independence. By your own many statements you despise liberals and despise the Democratic Party, yet here you are... Still.

If I could, I'd demand you start doing some chores around the party. That'd get you moving. But...here you are year after year, bad-mouthing the strong, functional party that gives you shelter from that scary world.

I said it and I mean it. Be brave! You guys have each others' on-line identities. Organizing is a snap. Start a thread and GO MAKE YOURSELVES A PARTY! One you can believe in!

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #25)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:30 PM

37. Too funny!

I've been an active member of the Democratic Party since well before you were born. My family has been, since the party started. And my ancestors taught the Founding Fathers about democracy.

Also, some of my best friends are liberals. There's a liberal family living in my neighborhood. I'm not saying that I'd be okay with it if one of my sons or daughters was dating a liberal .....but that isn't likely to happen.

Please -- by all means -- continue!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #37)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:36 PM

41. So, you decline leadership. Okay, who else?!

Stand up and make it happen. There is LITERALLY NOTHING between you and the history books.

You don't even need an umbrella, or to leave your favorite chair to get this going!

Seriously: Go do it! MAKE YOURSELVES A PROGRESSIVE PARTY.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #41)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:42 PM

42. A large segment

of my party -- the Democratic Party -- is progressive. That seems to upset you.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #42)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:45 PM

43. NO, I'm a progressive liberal and always have been.

I'm not a resentful malcontent because I'm out of place in my party, and that's the big difference.

Go! MAKE A PROGRESSIVE PARTY!

Come on, people! You start with a FREE website on...Proboards to start organizing. Here's that address. https://www.proboards.com/

How much courage and initiative will that take? After you form it and get some signups from right here, contact Bernie's campaign to let them know.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #43)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:48 PM

44. Actually, you are not.

Your emotional outbursts -- including your "demands" -- indicate that you are a frustrated authoritarian.

Apparently, the writings of an old man greatly upset you. But I'm confident that you will be okay. And I welcome you to my party, the Democratic Party!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #44)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:52 PM

47. MAKE A PARTY. America needs an alternative.

Don't let it down. THIS is the beginning of the new age.

If my name shows up in very thick books as a footnote someday, I'll be dead already. So even if your New Progressive Party (see? your name?) takes the Democratic Party's place in our two-party system it won't hurt me. I'm not afraid. Be the citizens you want to be.

https://www.proboards.com/

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #47)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:55 PM

48. "When passions drive,

let reason hold the reins." -- Ben Franklin

I hope that if Bernie wins the nomination, you will remember that you are a Democrat.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #48)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:57 PM

49. You seem to be standing alone, H20.

I'll be checking back as the primary progresses to see if someone has the guts to stand behind your words, or hers or his own.

MAKE YOURSELVES A PARTY.

So, no ….we aren’t tired, discouraged, or injured in any way what so ever. No, we are not even thinking of quitting, and falling in behind the establishment candidate. Not even close.

We understand that, due to the unexpected strength of Bernie Sanders’s campaign, something that no Team Clinton supporter anticipated, that we are now confronted not only by the establishment of our own political party, but by the full force of the machine that was intent upon making “Bush vs. Clinton” the main event in 2016. That isn’t going to happen, now, is it?

The Sanders revolution is in the tradition of the patriots in the Revolutionary War. Our struggle is in the spirit of that Declaration of Independence. We really do not identify our friends who are Loyalists to the establishment’s crown as our “enemies.” You are good and sincere people ….but you are confused. You are frightened, and seek the comfort and security that the establishment promises to those who behave as prescribed by the crown.

Our side is only warming up for battle.


Words to live by, or principles to fail? Be inspired by our founding fathers.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #49)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:02 PM

52. Gosh.

Boy, you got me there. My OP's on DU:GDP never get any positive feedback.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #52)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 08:52 AM

95. look at all these Bernie supporters standing alone

 

Last edited Thu Mar 17, 2016, 09:53 AM - Edit history (1)



it's quite amazing what one person all alone can accomplish when they join with millions of other people who are alone.

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #95)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 09:50 AM

101. So many people united, standing together....!!!!

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #49)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 08:49 AM

94. standing alone?

 

Hardly!



we are standing together strong while the party establishment sits in comfy chairs around some conference table fretting over how to slow us down.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #44)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:29 AM

116. emotional outbursts? Because anyone who encourages you to go out

 

and start your own party is "emotional" and having an "outburst"?

Or because Hortensis comes across as a female name?

Or because when you're simply confronted with the concept that not all Progressive, Left-leaning individuals support Sanders you get uncomfortable?

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #116)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:31 AM

119. Are you really

in favor of attempts to "ban" Bernie supporters from the Democratic Party? Do you seriously think that is a good strategy?

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #119)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 01:09 PM

137. Oh, are YOU guys there in that picture?

No?

But -- Are you perhaps the organizing committee for THE NEW PROGRESSIVE PARTY?!!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #119)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 02:06 PM

140. kick

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #41)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 01:27 PM

139. From your lips to God(dess)'s ears. Please, a real Progressive party . nt

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #25)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:51 AM

151. Boy, are you wrong.

H2O Man has been a consistent advocate for the Democratic party and progressive values for most of his life, to the point of doing measurable damage to his health in hunger strikes. And he has hands-on nuts-and-bolts experience in running and winning election campaigns in areas where a Democratic candidate had previously no chance. Several such experiences.

Incidentally, advocating for a third-party split, as you have done in this post, is against the TOS. You might want to consider that.

-- Mal

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #21)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:01 AM

102. They have forgotten about many of Bernie's support and contribution to Dem party.

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Response to kgnu_fan (Reply #102)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:11 AM

105. Right.

This person illustrates perfectly the rigid, concrete thinking of the authoritarian branch of the party. The only "acceptable" contribution, in their limited thinking, would be a cash donation to the establishment, and a vote for the establishment candidate. The authoritarian mind is deeply offended by anyone who thinks for themselves. Rigid thinking is always defined by "black vs white" thinking, expressed so pathetically by George W. Bush's "you're either for us or against us."

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #105)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:13 AM

107. Obedience is their code and value. nt

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Response to kgnu_fan (Reply #107)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:19 AM

109. Right.

An unattractive quality of rigid thinking is that it breaks under pressure. It lacks the ability to comprehend that, for example, both the Hillary and Bernie campaigns are "right" about some things ....and that the Democratic Party's potential strength is found in embracing all ways of thinking, rather than robotic obedience to the establishment.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #109)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:23 AM

113. kick

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Response to kgnu_fan (Reply #102)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:31 AM

118. He's spent decades trashing the ENTIRE Democratic Party

 

and saying they are both the same and part of the evil "Establishment".

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #118)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:33 AM

121. That's simply not true.

However, there are certainly individual Democrats in DC who have far more in common with the republican elite,than they have in common with you or I.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #121)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 03:33 PM

141. Sanders has been voting 80% with Dem policies. He has resisted the elite class.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #8)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:50 PM

45. Sanders' supporters are true progressives who want to protect the FDR legacy

Hillary Clinton is a Third Way politician, and if there is to be a separation into two parties, it is the Third Way-inclined who should form their own party -- not usurp the one that that has been in place for decades and accomplished much for the citizens of this Country. Many of us are FDR Democrats, and there is no middle of the road between us and Republican-lites.

H20 Man is right where he belongs, so I am pretty sure he will be staying as will many other Sanders' supporters.

Sam

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Response to Samantha (Reply #45)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:57 PM

50. Thank you, Samantha!

While I do not think that person has contributed anything worthy of a response -- if I didn't have faith in humanity, why, I'd identify this as a weak attempt to stir the pot! -- I do appreciate your taking the time.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #50)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:08 PM

56. I thought it was an atrocious attack on you and way over the line

If she persists in this type of dialogue, I will place her on Ignore.

Sam

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Response to Samantha (Reply #56)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:13 PM

58. I think she's hilarious.

I would hope that no good and sincere Democrat would assume that she represents our Party in any meaningful way. Our party is so large, that it is bound to attract some curious people. Her hostility and bitterness should not be a factor in who anyone votes for in the primary or general election.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #58)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:59 AM

152. By the same token...

... one should not assume she speaks for the majority of Clinton supporters, many of whom, I am convinced, have good and sufficient reasons for their choice, reasons you or I might find compelling. Authoritarianism not being one of them, of course. While there are many authoritarians in Mrs Clinton's camp, it would be a mistake to conclude that authoritarianism is the sole engine that actuates them.

-- Mal

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Response to Samantha (Reply #45)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:32 AM

120. LOL! Sanders supporters would have trashed FDR cause Social Security

 

didn't cover EVERYONE.

And the issue at the core of Hortensis' posts isn't Waterman.

It's Sanders trashing the Democratic party as a whole, in its entirety and sowing cynicism and agitating young adult voters but NOT BRINGING THEM INTO LOCAL DEMOCRATIC POLITICS.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #120)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:34 AM

123. Simply not true.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:09 PM

2. Another great post

K ' R

Peace and thanks for being there when many of us need to hear your message

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Response to Blus4u (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:14 PM

6. Thank you.

I hope that people do not listen to the media and the Clinton campaign and take their analysis seriously. They are focused upon discouraging us. But we are exactly where we need to be right now. We are in perfect position for the period between yesterday, and the Convention.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:09 PM

3. wonderful analysis

On July 4, each year, there is a reading of the Declaration in front of the National Archives. I was there one year & had a moment of clarity. I believe it was to these words:

--"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government..." Declaring the RIGHT to "alter or abolish" is the most awesome & amazing moment in the Declaration in my opinion.

This is our RIGHT, according to the Founders. My ancestors didn't fight in the American Revolution for nothin/ we have to continue the fight.

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Response to Merryland (Reply #3)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:16 PM

7. Exactly.

It is not only our right, but our responsibility .....our responsibility, not only to those who fought the Good Fight in the past, and to the generations to follow ....but our responsibility to ourselves, as human beings.

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Response to Merryland (Reply #3)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 11:02 AM

153. Straightforward Locke.

The People always have the right to "appeal to heaven" if the government fails to serve them. He left that deliberately ambiguous because one doesn't want to be accused of advocating treason when such advocacy is a capital crime.

-- Mal

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:10 PM

4. K & Highly R

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Response to SheenaR (Reply #4)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:32 PM

11. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:24 PM

9. I have been posting this pic every chance I get...

 

This seems to be another good opportunity


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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #9)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:33 PM

12. Very good!

I really like that! And appreciate that you posted it here! Thanks!

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Response to tk2kewl (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 09:42 AM

99. love that picture

we fight together

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:26 PM

10. Indeed H2O Man!

The establishment has promised much over the last 40+ years and all they deliver is pain and suffering, strife and discord. I have trouble believing that so many still have their eyes firmly shut to that fact and continue to support the corporate candidate, the establishment candidate, the compromised candidate. However given the Pravda like 24/7/365 nature of our 4th estate and the constant propaganda they spew, these people are, in fact, the desired result.

We have only just begun to fight. We are legion. We do not forgive. We do not forget.

Because fuck this shit!

Thanks H2O Man for your thoughts.


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Response to haikugal (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:40 PM

15. Outstanding!

I agree.

I do try to forgive, although sometimes, it is hard. Yesterday, on DU:GD, for example, I posted an update on the "road rage" case, where a person shot my cousin and his son in October, 2014. I'm not able to forgive that person, yet. In time, maybe.

But I view the majority of people as unconscious. They are organic life, responding to their five or six senses, according to the structure of the human brain. But they remain unconscious, of their individual and the collective human potential. Some have a limited grasp, as if they can almost make it out, through a thick fog. Yet they continue to grasp for the security of the machine.

The Sanders revolution is part of a larger awakening.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:00 PM

24. I don't think forgiveness helps anyone if there are no corrections made.

In this case the people pulling the strings are beyond forgiveness in my view. I try not to hold a grudge but if I'm repeatedly mistreated the only sane thing is to acknowledge the reality and continue on in my endeavor to correct the system, and watch my back.

It was decided we were too wealthy, educated and informed so corrections were made. We have been systematically crushed into submission. If they can't get us to go along they manufacture consent and proceed. Too many people live desperate lives and struggle daily. They are too involved in survival to pay attention or they reach the conclusion that nothing they do matters.

I heard a quote yesterday that struck me...by Emma Goldman



I want to do this peacefully but we both know how close the violence is. The earth and all it's living things needs us to turn this around.

Peace

On edit..

What happened to your cousin and his son is a travesty. It's understandable that it will take time to come to terms with your feelings. Best wishes to you and your family.

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Response to haikugal (Reply #24)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:43 AM

125. Right.

I think we are seeing the violence taking form within the Trump campaign. And, no matter who the Democratic Party's candidate is, that force will be unleashed. I'm convinced our best strategy is found in the teachings and examples of Gandhi and King.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #125)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 11:02 AM

130. I hope so.

We are up against a cruel and inhumane machine.

I found this discussion important.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017339125

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #125)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 11:19 AM

154. I'm not convinced of that.

Non-violence only works if the other side is capable of shame. Hard as it is to believe, many of those who supported oppression in the past were capable of shame, thus non-violence was the best (and probably only) way to move them. Although we can fight about how much progress was actually made.

Fascists may be different. They glory in oppressing others. To remind them of the humanity and dignity of the objects of their hatred is therefore a null program. In fact, it arguably makes them even happier in their hatred, more violent in their oppression. Does the extra emotion come from a sense of guilt, or a sense of gratification? I think that's an open question. One might suggest that, since their leaders are psychopaths. psychopathy is what they admire and aspire to.

-- Mal

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:38 PM

13. Well Stated....We Forge On...!



We understand that, due to the unexpected strength of Bernie Sanders’s campaign, something that no Team Clinton supporter anticipated, that we are now confronted not only by the establishment of our own political party, but by the full force of the machine that was intent upon making “Bush vs. Clinton” the main event in 2016. That isn’t going to happen, now, is it?

The Sanders revolution is in the tradition of the patriots in the Revolutionary War. Our struggle is in the spirit of that Declaration of Independence. We really do not identify our friends who are Loyalists to the establishment’s crown as our “enemies.” You are good and sincere people ….but you are confused. You are frightened, and seek the comfort and security that the establishment promises to those who behave as prescribed by the crown.

Our side is only warming up for battle.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #13)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:56 PM

22. Thanks, KoKo!

Some of us Elders have a clearer picture, based upon decades of experience, of where we now stand.

Always proud to be on the same team as you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:42 PM

16. "The Sanders revolution is in the tradition of the patriots in the Revolutionary War."

 

We must do every thing in our power to support Bernie!

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Response to Jenny_92808 (Reply #16)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:58 PM

23. Yes.

We are in the tradition of all of the great movements that reach for social justice for all people. And we do not think that Nancy Reagan was ever on our side.

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Response to Jenny_92808 (Reply #16)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 04:06 PM

144. For 99%. Government of the people, by the people, for the people...

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:50 PM

19. I needed this.

I wasn't nervous about the outcome of the election. I've been fighting the resentment. I see a clear path, and it's obstructed. I feel resentment. That might be due to how much of my life has gone. Perhaps I just need more time to practice principles I've only just learned. I recently watched a video of a dog prancing around in a river when the narrator said, "Oh, he's going to get eaten". And then in a flash, the crocodile jaws turned a walk of fun into a new dimension. It's holding irony while experiencing it, without suffering the anxiety. You appear to do that quite well. My context is one of the underdog. It's no wonder people are attracted to Trump. But winning isn't what this game is about.

My strength is being tested. My faith in humans is being tried. It's not a race; it's an attempt to bring this species together.

Thank you for your wisdom and experience.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #19)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:01 PM

26. You nailed it.

Our strength is being tested. Yet, we are in really good shape.

It's good to ask ourselves: Is there any other campaign that we would rather be a part of? The answer, of course, is no. We are on the correct path up that mountain. We'll reach the top.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #26)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:12 PM

31. I love that.

No, there is no other campaign I would associate with. What an interesting point/context. I sense this is important in order to find that sense of calm, or purpose, that will instill confidence. When I doubt my chance of success in the process, I lose my spirit. Then the resentment follows. I've been telling people less confident than myself that this is what our brain is for. If we turn to aggressive thoughts, or behavior, then we have failed to use our brain.

Ok, I'm catching on. By the way, I've sent your post to someone who is very emotional about this campaign. He needs to hear some grounded wisdom.



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Response to Gregorian (Reply #31)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:22 PM

33. Wow!

Thank you ....I am honored that you would send it to your friend. That means a lot tome.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:50 PM

20. Many Americans do not realize the Boston Tea Party

was a rebellion against the multinational East India Tea Company's preferential treatment by the Parliament instead of a rebellion of taxation. Just one of those things largely silent from today's rendition of history. Recommended.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #20)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:03 PM

28. Thanks, mmonk!

A proper understanding of history is important, in order to behave in a manner required to bring about social justice today.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #20)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:06 AM

104. Nice point mmonk!

The Tories were corporatists who did what benefited the East India Company over the rights and benefit of the colonies.

Sort of like our corporatist candidate Hillary would do for her big business friends.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #104)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 04:28 PM

145. Yep.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:02 PM

27. Right there with you H2O Man! Fight on, fellow Berners, fight on!

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Response to peacebird (Reply #27)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:04 PM

29. Thanks, peacebird!

Much appreciated!

Fight on!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:10 PM

30. Despite being ignored, marginalized and otherwise mocked

 

by the MSM, Sanders has managed to change the dialogue this country is having regarding wealth inequality and social injustice. He has forced Hillary Clinton to move far to the left of where she usually is, of where she and her cronies are comfortable, to explain her disastrous past votes and to come between her and her planned coronation. This is a huge accomplishment and more than I'd dreamed possible last year.

We are in good shape moving forward. Much of the country hasn't even voted yet. I have no doubts whatsoever that the revolution is just beginning and is in the early stages of its ultimate victory, despite the recent setback.

Thank you for pointing out the good news.

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Response to farleftlib (Reply #30)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:26 PM

34. Thank you!

A year ago, no one in the Clinton campaign believed that anyone would have the audacity to challenge Hillary in the Democratic primary. When Bernie announced, they thought it was a giggle .....at most, a weak, symbolic gesture. My, my -- how things have changed!

No, we aren't worried about yesterday's results. Quite the opposite. We are going to win the nomination, and the general election.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 09:48 AM

100. I like this post Tuesday map:

http://www.nytimes.com/elections/2016/national-results-map?WT.mc_id=2016-KWP-AUD_DEV&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-key

"We are going to win the nomination" I'm holding that vision
the stakes are every bit as high as you say

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #100)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:33 AM

122. Very good!

Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:26 PM

35. K.R fot later reading.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #35)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:31 PM

38. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:28 PM

36. Happy to be rec #25! nt

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Response to nc4bo (Reply #36)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:31 PM

39. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:32 PM

40. That's an excellent OP, H2O Man!

Thanks for the thread.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #40)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:17 PM

59. Thanks, Uncle Joe!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 02:51 PM

46. I'm glad you wrote this up, and hope it will stand as a reminder that this political movement

is interwoven within the primary race. It is not a movement that should be considered over if
Sanders does not receive the nomination. I know that a few OP's last night were mocking the
idea of a political revolution and I don't have thin skin..so that's fine. Besides those remarks
remind me how much more effort I must commit to..and you and I may disagree on this following
point.

Clinton is not Sanders, and she is not Trump, but she does represent for me not only
horrific policies but her indebtedness to the corporate gatekeepers. Should she win
the nomination my vote is against any Republican, period..not for her. It is too soon to
consider how the Republican field will look considering their establishment is racking their
brain to figure out what they can do with Trump before election day...so we'll see.

In solidarity, for the duration.

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Response to Jefferson23 (Reply #46)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:22 PM

61. Thanks, Jefferson23!

I am still confident that we will win the nomination. Thus, I continue to move forward towards that goal.

I do believe that it is likely, if perchance Hillary wins the nomination, that the acrimony that the Clinton campaign has injected into the primaries, will result in many progressives opting to not vote for our party -- if they vote at all.

It's a shame that the rational, sincere Democrats who are supporting Hillary do not speak up more ....including on this forum. For there is more that should unite us, rather than divide us.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #61)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:30 PM

65. I haven't given up on that front either.....this election cycle has shown us thus far, anything

is possible. I believe in the greater good of people and that together we can help
Sanders secure the nomination..we still have a fighting chance.

Thanks for another poignant OP.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:02 PM

51. I thought most Sanders supporters beleieved that this was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

They seemed to believe that they would not have another opportunity to support a candidate like Bernie and that's why they were going all out for him.

Now we are being told that while this opportunity is fading, the revolution is "just warming up". What is going to happen when both Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren endorse Hillary Clinton. What happens when, hopefully, Hillary Clinton becomes President - maybe for the next 8 years.

Bernie is 74 and who knows when he will retire from the Senate. Who is going to lead the revolution next year, or the next, or eight years from now when we may be facing a totally different political situation?

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Response to CajunBlazer (Reply #51)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:04 PM

55. Respectfully disagree.

Bernie's campaign is not "fading," though I appreciate why Clinton supporters are trying to convince Bernie's supporters that it is.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #55)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 05:32 PM

85. Judging by voter turnout it never really started. nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:03 PM

53. We have come to a point where words like Liberty

and Freedom are openly mocked and scoffed at.

People believe their rights come from a document written hundreds of years ago. The concept of Natural Rights has been completely lost.

People believe that trampling on the rights of others protects them. That living in a police state where a Government tells you what rights you have and dont have will make them safe.

People have become too dependent on the Corporate machine. The corporate mother provides them their food, their health care, their enertainment, their paycheck, their clothes, their house, their car for a price of course your entire life. They also depend on this corporate mother to tell them who to vote for, who to trust, and how to think.

The corporate mother though does not have their best interest at heart. The corporation is drive by one motivation Maximize Profits. and we have determined it is legal for them to lie, cut corners, produce inferior products, exploit labor, exploit consumers and control our democratic process in the name of those profits.

Any candidate that is supported by M$M (the propaganda arm of corporate america) should be met with immediate skepticism and doubt. M$M will only give time to those candidates that will continue the dominance of the sociopathic corporate mother.

Voting for centric corporate backed media backed politicians has further erroded our freedom and our liberty and has put in place a police state based on fear and seperation. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is insanity. It is time we changed the game!

Corporate America may squeeze out one more election but the people are waking up. More and more people are being informed outside the corporate box. They are seeing our evil mother for the monster she has become. Our Government has become destructive to Life Liberty and Happiness and it is time for the people to demand real change!

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Response to WDIM (Reply #53)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:01 PM

69. Very, very well said!

The sad truth is that remarkably few Americans understand what the words "liberty" and "freedom" mean. By no coincidence, those that do are often those who have had their rights denied, and had to fight for them. Again, by no coincidence, these people who have are frequently Bernie supporters.

Thank you for your powerful response.

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Response to WDIM (Reply #53)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:49 AM

127. Yes indeed.

Thanks WDIM and of course the excellent Waterman.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:18 PM

60. Ohio and South Florida aren't part of the Bible Belt. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #60)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:35 PM

66. Why, of course not.

Hence, for example, I didn't suggest South Florida was the bible belt. Nor did I mention that a heck of a lot of Democrats from South Florida voted for Patrick Buchanan in the 2000 general election. I see no reason to go there!

Your candidate did well yesterday. So didn't our's. It's a tough fight, and not close to being over.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #66)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:50 PM

67. I think the commentary about the south/bible belt/regional candidate

 

don't make much sense anymore.

Two things are indisputably true, for the remaining states:

1) The map for Clinton won't be as favorable post 3/15 as it was pre 3/15--unlikely to be 70-30 blowouts in big states.
2) The map for Sanders won't be favorable enough for him to win the nomination. He will win some states, but the big states remaining are closed primary and/or diverse states where it's expensive to play (NJ, PA, NY, CA, MD) and he just won't be able to make up any ground in those states.

The movement behind Sanders won't be over after the election, it's just beginning.

The exchange of ideas between the two candidates will continue, as will the primary. Both candidates will win and lose states. But Clinton's opponent is no longer Bernie Sanders, it's Donald Trump.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #67)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:59 PM

68. Respectfully disagree.

As Skinner pointed out today, it's still the primary season.

Hillary isn't our nominee, nor is Trump our enemy's nominee. Yet, there is obviously a very real chance that this will be the eventual November contest. At this point, while I would obviously campaign and vote for Hillary, I think the odds would favor Trump winning.

This is, of course, one of the most important factors in my support for Bernie. Well before I uttered a single word on this forum about the Democratic primary, I wrote a half-dozen OP's stating that an ugly, violent force was emerging from within the bowels of the republican party. I have rarely been invested in the "lesser of the two evils" bit for elections -- nor can I have an ounce of respect for the "not voting equals a vote for Trump" nonsense -- but I can say with zero risk of error that a Trump presidency would usher in another Dark Age.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #68)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:05 PM

72. I will respectfully, but strongly, disagree that Trump

 

would be favored in a general election match up with Hillary Clinton. Donald Trump is the least popular major party nominee in our country's history.

President Obama's approval ratings are the highest they've been in 3 years.

That is a very favorable landscape for Hillary Clinton, not even factoring in the unreleased oppo research on Drumpf, or the coming civil war on the GOP side that will lead to decreased turnout on their end.

Be well.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #72)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:49 PM

78. Right.

That is only my opinion, nothing more. However, while the republican establishment would support Hillary over Trump, there are millions of republicans with a pathological hatred of her, and they would definitely be getting out the vote. Because Hillary cannot unite our party, there is the very real risk of a low Democratic voter turn-out. That would damage not only the prospects for winning the national election, but numerous state contests.

I think that even among Ms. Clinton's supporters, there is an awareness that Debbie Wasserman Schultz et al have offended a large segment of our party. The make-up of the House and Senate already reflect very poorly on DWS. I'm not confident that her brand of "leadership" is anything but toxic for 2016.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #78)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 05:00 PM

81. "Hillary cannot unite our party"

 

That would be the case if the party was like GD: Primaries. But it's not.

This primary fight is far less nasty than the 2008 primary was, which made figures such as Jeremiah Wright and Larry Johnson and Harriet Christian into temporary celebrities, and which involved the DNC not recognizing the primary votes of two swing states--Michigan and Florida.

If you do not believe me on this, consider:

1) Clinton has won much of the Obama coalition--including people of color--over to her side after losing the African-American vote to Obama in massive numbers, because of the numerous racial gaffes she, Bill, and her surrogates made (hard working white people, Jesse Jackson, shuck and jive, drug dealer, etc). Indeed, a large number of Obama people who hated her guts in 2008 have come around;

2) In May of 2008, fully 50% of Clinton supporters said they would not vote for Obama as the nominee. Obviously, the party had no trouble coming together despite the hard feelings that existed at the time of the primary.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/06/exit-polls-half-of-clintons-supporters-wont-back-obama/

3) Sanders's biggest base of supporters--young people--are overwhelmingly likely to fall in behind Clinton in the general election:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/03/donald-trump-solves-hillary-clinton-problem-millennials

DWS is far from ideal, but her influence is vastly overstated. She deserves to lose her job, but she is a symptom not a cause of the problems we're having.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #81)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 05:03 PM

82. Respectfully disagree.

I believe that there was a time when Hillary could unite much of the party. But those days, in my opinion, are long gone.

My ride is here -- I'll continue later.

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it very much!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #82)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 07:08 PM

90. I'm back.

In both 2000 and 2006, Hillary Clinton was able to unite people here in NYS ....and not just registered Democrats. She had a lot of Independents and republicans voting for her, too. But 2008 changed that.

In 2008, it was easy to re-unite the Democratic Party behind Barack Obama. The truth is, there was very little difference between Barack and Hillary. So we all found common ground -- except a few bitter, dehydrated people who refused to vote for the Democratic candidate.

In 2016, there are huge differences between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. The vast majority of these come down to values. It is inaccurate to believe that saying we all want the same basic changes ....an attempted pleasantry that illustrates the huge divide between the candidates, and more importantly, their supporters.

The Clinton campaign holds that our political-economic-social system is solid, and merely needs a few minor "repairs" to make everyone happy. The Sanders campaign demands a complete overhaul of a corrupt, toxic system.

Thus, 2016 and 2008 are really different. If Hillary does win the party's nomination, do you really expect that even 50% of Sanders supporters will vote for her? I think that is unrealistic.And I say that, as a person who has campaigned for, and voted for, virtually every Democratic candidate for president in my adult life. Without question, this year is distinct from any previous .....and I don't see the capacity to unite us as a quality that Hillary has. Perhaps more importantly, the Clinton campaign -- from the top positions to the grass roots -- has engaged in more offensive behavior than that of any winning Democratic candidate I have seen.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:24 PM

62. The second American Revolution was the Civil War.

It can be argued that the third American Revolution was the four Roosevelt terms.

Between the revolution and the present time several political parties have been created and dissolved, or evolved. Not one of those could be considered an up rising let alone a revolution.

In 2008 Clinton was in the same position as Sanders is in now, except her margin vs Obama was much closer than Sanders delegate count is to Clinton's.

Lots of people demanded that Clinton drop out too. Oddly there wasn't a revolution then either.

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #62)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:03 PM

70. For historical accuracy,

the second American revolution was the Anti_rent War. It's been removed from most history books. (I wrote about it, again, recently on this forum.)

It serves as a model for today's struggle.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #70)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 04:18 AM

146. The anti rent war

Was a local reaction to old former Dutch colonial land owners iirc. If you'd give me a link I'd appreciate it.

If you have a chance read "Gotham", http://www.amazon.com/Gotham-History-York-City-1898/dp/0195140494

It covers a whole bunch of history, including the anti-rent war.

America has had a bunch of up risings from colonial times on down. Shay's is my favorite, but there were larger and more successful ones. However only the civil war involved the whole nation.

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Response to Buzz cook (Reply #62)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 11:32 AM

155. If you belive Thomas Jefferson...

... the Second American Revolution was his election.

-- Mal

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:26 PM

63. well said!

nice and well thought out, H2O Man!

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Response to dana_b (Reply #63)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:04 PM

71. Thank you!

I appreciate that!

I also am encouraged that this OP has generated some response from a few Clinton supporters.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 03:29 PM

64. Your posts are always so wise and thoughtful, H20 Man.

It's a joy to read them and I learn so much, thank you!

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Response to polly7 (Reply #64)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:09 PM

74. Thanks!

I figure that the truth that I expressed must have hit a sore spot for one of our friends. She has been insisting that I am officially evicted from this forum, and the Democratic Party.

It's a sad day when other Democrats who support Hillary fail to address such authoritarian nonsense. But, it reveals the deeply-rooted dislike that they have for progressives.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #74)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:19 PM

76. You shouldn't even bother with anyone like that. It's obvious what you stand for,

and always have - which is why people appreciate your OP's so much - we know there will be truth, knowledge, kindness and yet always hope and the solid truth of your experience and convictions which so many share. Authoritarianism is something I actually hate more than most things - those who defend it are lacking the strength and confidence to hope for better and need others to feel the same. * that.

Keep the OP's coming please .... you're a treasure here!

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Response to polly7 (Reply #76)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 05:00 PM

80. Right.

Normally, I simply ignore that sort. But she was just too funny. It reminded me of speaking in public, and having one intoxicated person barking in a rude and crude manner.

Older forum members, no matter who they support in this primary, remember me as the odd fellow who went on a hunger strike, to force a state senator who advocated for fracking, to meet with the pro-environmental community. They might think I'm odd, but they recognize that I am sincere. I'm never surprised when the supporters of a candidate who advocates for fracking dislike me.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #80)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 05:09 PM

83. I think they're afraid of you, lol. Sometimes even the kindest stated truths threaten

what some have accepted as tolerable and what should be suitable for everyone else. They're afraid some - maybe a lot - will realize they're wrong to accept what is indefensible for humanity and our planet. Oh, wellll.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #83)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:59 AM

128. Interesting. Very interesting.

I remember the day that the senator finally met with me. I had been the main speaker at a rally inside the NYS capital building in Albany, NY. Among the over 1,200 people there, I saw two of the senator's aides. When I said that a group of area high school students were planning rallies in front of two of the senator's district offices -- not taking a position on fracking, but to say his refusal to meet with the environmental community went against everything they were being taught about government -- the aides left.

A short time later, the senator confronted me in a hall way. He was hostile and aggressive -- every bit as obnoxious as the one person above. It took about three minutes of his histrionic ranting, before I was able to convince him that I wasn't his enemy. Within five minutes, I had him laughing, and putting his hand on my shoulder -- I told a joke about his basketball skills, from decades-old pick-up games that he had also competed in.

He is no longer in office, though. He was indicted, and convicted, in federal court, for being a petty mobster.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #128)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 01:10 PM

138. You need to write a book.

(Just in case you haven't already - if you have, I'm very sorry for not knowing). I'm thinking I wish I'd lived half the life you have, makes me a bit sad to not have, actually. I hope the petty mobster wasn't put away for too long.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #138)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 11:37 AM

156. He's written several books...

... but he always leaves the juicy gossip out.

A gritty "tell all" about county-level politics would be a fun read, and would probably sell very well as a fiction series.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #156)

Tue Mar 22, 2016, 02:29 AM

159. Oooh, I didn't realize that. I'm so sorry H2O Man.

I've always thought your writing was brilliant ... I should have known you'd have shared it with more than here.



Thank you Mal for letting me know.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:08 PM

73. Peace!!! Keep donating and spreading the word on Bernie!!!

 

I have gotten 5 people at work to switch from Hillary to Bernie by showing them posts here on Bernie's civil rights record!

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Response to PonyUp (Reply #73)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:11 PM

75. Exactly!

That is the power of a grass roots movement. Between myself and many associates, we've convinced many, many Democrats to support Bernie. Some are Democrats who would otherwise support Hillary, and many are Democrats who planned to vote for Trump as a form of protest.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:20 PM

77. Kicking for more eyes! And rec'd! And bookmarked!

I'm in it for the long haul. I'm old enough to know the fight isn't over 'til you lay down.

TY, H2O Man. I'm sending this to some youngins' I know that need your kinda lift!

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Response to ebayfool (Reply #77)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 04:54 PM

79. Thank you!

My favorite audience is young adults. They will determine the outcome of the primary, the general election, and our nation's future.

For many decades now, I've enjoyed speaking to students at colleges and universities (and high schools, for that matter). I have been the most impressed, and encouraged, by the current generation of young adults .....and, of course, that's not limited to students.

There is no single factor more important for us to recognize, than that young adults favor Bernie Sanders.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 05:12 PM

84. I love your optimism.

It's too bad it has attracted such ugliness in this thread.

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Response to surrealAmerican (Reply #84)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 06:41 PM

87. Right!

It's funny -- I never "invade" a pro-Hillary thread with an ugly word. I tend to "recommend" a couple pro-Hillary threads each day, and often add an encouraging word.

However, I much prefer that those people "attack" me on DU:GDP, than other Sanders supporters. As I noted in another recent OP, I am used to it .....I had mentioned there about having a board broken over my head -- from behind, mind you -- at a rally years ago. Also, in the 2008 primary, there was a group that attempted to get me banned from DU. The funniest thing was that one of those people began telling others that she had "proof" that I am actually Patrick Buchanan -- perhaps the funniest thing I've ever been called!

I enjoy the responses from bigtree; in all seriousness, I consider him among my best friends here, and have nothing but respect for him. I feel bad for him, though, when he attempts to debate me on this topic -- it's almost like when Jimmy Ellis, Ali's sparring partner, challenged Muhammad in the ring ....except Jimmy got paid. (grin) I hope he reads this!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #87)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 06:58 PM

89. Your posts are some of my favorites here.

I don't post much myself. I type a lot of posts, only to delete them.

The ultra-negative posts I'm seeing lately have been causing me to doubt that DU is a site for me, even though I've been here for ten years. It helps knowing that there are good people here who will stick around despite them.

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Response to surrealAmerican (Reply #89)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 07:15 PM

91. It goes in cycles,

in my opinion. Back in the "good old days" of DU, everyone agreed that Bush & Cheney were horrible human beings. No one would have considered expressing support for a candidate who was close personal friends with the Bush family, or Henry Kissinger.

I'm still here for a few reasons. The most important is because there are actually a lot of really good people on the forum. The ultra-negative people don't influence my thinking in any way.

I hope that you stay!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #87)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 11:41 AM

157. Well, your name is Pat...

... I wasn't here in 2008, but that must have been special.

-- Mal

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 06:01 PM

86. I'm not about to give up. I'm not giving in. This is a fight to the finish.

You Sir are a treasure, and we have lost so many. Thank you so much.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #86)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 06:43 PM

88. There you go!

I very much prefer having you on my team, than a hundred of of opponents. For you understand the Truth, whereas they simply do not. And I treasure you! Thank you so much for all you do.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed Mar 16, 2016, 09:23 PM

92. Nervous?

I think on this thread there are only two nervous people. The two striking out at you: H20 Man.
A revolution may lose some battles but not necessarily the war. We may have to try again....but Never give up.
Thanks for your cool headed, yet amusing, responses.

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Response to Sensitive soul (Reply #92)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 09:40 AM

98. Really, only one.

"Bigtree" is a good friend. A good Democrat. And a good human being. He reminds me of my brothers, growing up ....always looking to debate any and every issue. Yet, I am reminded of something that I heard Rubin say back in 1973, to a friend who was debating him: "Large timber is reduced to small brush, when it fucks with a Hurricane."

The other person is a different sort. I couldn't have paid anyone to provide a better example of the toxic attitude of a vocal segment of Hillary supporters. Still, I don't hold that specimen of supporter against the candidate.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #98)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 12:31 PM

136. Big heart. nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 07:49 AM

93. H2O Man, I have to disagree with one of your statements:

"All credit goes to the Clinton campaign on their victories thus far."


I don't think that is entirely true.

Over the last few decades (perhaps longer) the "center" has been steadily moved to the right. The rightwing noise machine has been relentless in hammering home false narratives, the mainstream corporate media has abandoned its Fourth Estate responsibilities in favor of profits and serving the interests of its owners, and the Democratic Party (increasingly beholden to Big Money interests) has been largely co-opted into the oligarchy.

The real world interests of the poor and working class and middle class have not changed, but public perception has been molded and manipulated to the extent that a candidate who espouses what were once considered core Democratic values is framed as fringe far left, while real extremists like Dominionist Ted Cruz have become mainstream politicians of the Republican Party. The corporate media -- even supposedly "liberal" bastions like the New York times and MSNBC -- have actively worked to suppress news stories and/or marginalize a Bernie Sanders campaign that is historically significant in the enthusiasm and crowds it has generated in challenging the political establishment.

Yes, some credit for the success of Hillary Clinton's campaign is due to the talents and strength of the candidate herself, but she is receiving plenty of help that is not bestowed on her primary opponent. Hillary Clinton is a beneficiary, and perhaps the product, of the developments I described in the paragraphs above. She is a candidate of the establishment, which is very difficult to overcome.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #93)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:20 AM

110. Right.

I agree. Very good point. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 09:14 AM

96. Thank you again, H2O Man. This is a historic moment.

I am thinking about peaceful revolution of Iceland right after the 2008 Financial Crisis. They have overthrown the corrupt government with pot and pans protest. Iceland is a small country but they were not afraid of Wall Street. Why did American people forget its own brave history and aspiration of rebellion?

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Response to kgnu_fan (Reply #96)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:23 AM

112. Great example.

We need to be more comfortable thinking outside the box that the establishment presents. It really is that simple. And we see the discomfort that too many good people feel when we make suggestions that are outside of the "rules" that our enemy defines.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #112)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:26 AM

115. Status quo is not working any more....

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Response to kgnu_fan (Reply #115)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 11:02 AM

129. Exactly.

It's curious that so many good people, who are rightly outraged by the poisoning of the water in Flint, are backing a candidate who advocates fracking.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #129)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 11:06 AM

131. That is what causes me so much pain. I do not understand their cold bloodiness.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:18 AM

108. This nomination battle is truly for the soul of the Democratic party.

Are we to remain a center-right, Third Way, party that can win presidential elections, but continues to lose congressional, state and local elections are an astounding rate? Or, can we return to the progressivism of the New Deal era and once again become the predominant party in offices at all levels?

The Third Way path is the easiest because it rakes in the corporate money. That also makes it extremely popular with party insiders and elites. Meanwhile the party is getting crushed in every midterm election.

So far things have, as expected, not gone our way. The primary deck was stacked to buttress the Third Way candidate. But as Thomas Paine said: These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country.

We can't be summer soldiers. We've got to fight on.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #108)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:25 AM

114. Beautiful!

You've hit the nail on the head!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:21 AM

111. Your mind goes back to Margaret Thatcher? LOL!

 

Because they're both women, of course.

And the Sanders "Revolution" is bogus. He is part of the Establishment, as are the top of his team. And his refrain "both parties are the same" creates cynicism.

If he really wants to create lasting progressive change towards the Left, he'd join the Democrats and do what Paul Wellstone did.

He'd get all those young supporters into camps learning how to run for office as DEMOCRATS to push the party to the left starting at the local level.

YOUR side consists mostly of youngsters who apparently flock to rallies but can't be bothered to show up and vote. And disgruntled white people.

And Sanders campaign is so negative and destructive he'll leave a bunch of cynical young adults who can't be bothered to get involved and change the Democratic party cause it's "just as bad".

YOUR side's approach is to fracture the Left and create a Leftwing version of the Tea Party.

Take a good look at what's happening on the Right. You think that's a good idea for the Left?

When Hillary Clinton told someone to "run for office" at a Town Hall a few weeks back, Sanders supporters HOWLED in protest.

That's tells us all we need to know about Sanders "Revolution".




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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #111)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:29 AM

117. Agree & Respectfully disagree.

Another forum member (Sabrina) has posted a list of state candidates running on Bernie's platform. It includes candidates in every state. That is hugely important -- especially when we examine how the Debbie Wasserman Schultz's establishment candidates have done in recent years.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:38 AM

124. Stage 2.

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Response to grossproffit (Reply #124)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 10:44 AM

126. "...in which

Doris gets her oats."

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 11:40 AM

132. another thoughtful piece, H2O...i just posted last night about a conversation about our situation

with my French friend, who is also a naturalized American, and her response was:

"But...America is such a young country. Of course you will have these things. It is part of a country growing."

I don't think America has seen this level of deep, underlying, near-rejection (by a great many) of the status quo since the height of the Great Depression...the general public has been somewhat neutered since the Viet Nam protest era...the PTB learned their lessons from that period...but they mistakenly think/thought that the submission would be long-accepted, and never really challenged...

which has happened to all such regimes in history...they never see the cart to the guillotine actually carrying THEM...

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Response to islandmkl (Reply #132)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 11:47 AM

134. Years ago,

my friend Rubin Carter tried to convince me to move my family to Canada, where he had taken up residence. He said that to fully appreciate how the world viewed the US -- meaning its ruling elite -- one needed to travel to foreign lands. He, too, noted the reality that the US was a young nation, but had taken the germ of empire rapidly.

Rubin also warned that the potential for upheaval was great -- he said that there is no force that compares to tax-payers, once they recognize that they have been played for fools.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 11:44 AM

133. Lovely post!

Happy St. Patrick's Day, Pat.

"We serve neither King nor Kaiser"

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Response to Zorra (Reply #133)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 03:38 PM

142. Thank you!

Happy St. Patrick's Day to you & yours!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 12:27 PM

135. Bernie Sanders versus the philistines

The next revolution will be fought in the states, not in Washington. States with the initiative process are the closest thing we have to democratic socialism. Exercising the ability of the citizens in those 23 states to create and enact laws for their own benefit without having to ask for congresses permission would be the show of strength the progressive movement and democratic socialism needs to get national attention not to mention that It is in the states where we organize, find our candidates and elect like minded progressives.
Frankly sending our lone progressive to the WH to battle the entrenched forces of neoliberalism, conservatism, republicanism The democratic party and facism strikes me as being too quixotic and not likely to be terribly productive.With that in mind I must admit to not being too concerned about whether or not Bernie wins the presidency. MLK never won any elected office. But I am very much concerned with does this movement hold together if Bernie is not the president.

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Response to jeepers (Reply #135)

Thu Mar 17, 2016, 03:40 PM

143. Great points.

I believe in starting from the grass roots, and moving up. But the Sanders's campaign is a unique opportunity. It can be used to spark the effort at the local and state levels.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:14 AM

147. "The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot...

...will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of Bernie." (With apologies to Thomas Paine)

Those who have become discouraged by the recent results are summer soldiers and springtime patriots. When the going gets tough, the weird turn pro.

Still, Mr Sanders needs to make up a rather large shortfall of delegates. It would have been nice to do so this Tuesday, but there are many more ahead. The task has, however, gotten more difficult.

The danger is that these springtime soldiers and summer patriots will just throw up their hands, cry "A plague a' both your houses," and either abstain from voting in the General (if Mr Sanders does fail to win the primary) or cast a protest vote in November. That would be unwise, but not something to worry about too much now, until the nominees are decided. What the GOP intend is an interesting question, although it may be largely irrelevant in the end.

"Winning" states is largely irrelevant (except where a state has an all-or-nothing selection process, which IIRC few do), but "winning" a state does mean more delegates. And the primaries are all about delegates.

Confused and frightened? Well, perhaps some of the Clinton supporters are, but I assume the vast majority simply do their arithmetic differently from me. It is perhaps a touch judgemental, not to say condescending, to imply otherwise. We could have a discussion about Loyalists in the first Revolution as well (and I speak as one who had ancestors serving in the Continental Line). To assert that there is only one "correct" answer in matters of opinion and that all others are misguided is certainly no way to make bridges with those who think differently from one.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #147)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:27 AM

148. In my opinion,

if the November contest is Trump vs Clinton, the number of Democrats who cast a "protest" vote for Trump will be less than the number of republicans who vote for Clinton, for economic reasons. The other factor will be the Democratic Left, who will be unlikely to vote for either, if they vote at all.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #148)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:44 AM

149. That's essentially my reading as well

By "protest vote," I don't mean voting for Trump, but rather writing in Bernie.

If the GOP conspire to put Kasich on the ticket, I wonder how many Dems will cross over? Shouldn't be many, considering both are establishment figures. But the largely excluded middle is those pesky Independents, who are liable to split between HRC and Mr Kasich, if they vote at all. And "if they vote at all" may be a major question in the GE.

-- Mal

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #148)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:44 AM

150. From what I hear from young ppl, without Bernie, they will leave the political space entirely nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri Mar 18, 2016, 11:52 AM

158. I agree, it's in the tradition of the patriots.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue Mar 22, 2016, 02:35 AM

160. At the very heart this is about the future

 



And we are missing an opportunity. I have written at times why this is likely a very critical election. Well tonight it hit me. We do not change... we are facing extinction.

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