2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumANYONE who supports Hillary who would actually vote for Hillary over Bernie is NOT progressive.
Last edited Sun Mar 20, 2016, 03:18 PM - Edit history (1)
Okay, so this was an extremely poor copycat OP that I really didn't think through very well, so while I do believe the sentiment that no progressive in their right mind who is made aware of Hillary's policy record and stances can possibly vote for her over Sanders and that that is the biggest "NO-BRAINER" out there seeing as how it is clear that Bernie out performs her in the GE, I edited this OP since it really was a mess when I tried copying what the other OP said since it wasn't a good copycat to begin with.
I hope you enjoy all the video responses though! I sure had fun.
Cheers!
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hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts)A supports B doesn't mean that B=A.
Plus, a lot of people who call themselves progressive are no where near that. A progressive wouldn't back someone who is for fracking, the TPP, war, aidign and abetting the overthrowing of democracies, banksters... etc...
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hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)You are wrong!!!
Hillary supporters will find out within 5-10 years that they are on the wrong side of history. The times are changing, be it with Bernie as president or not.
Then you'll get a chance to see what real progressivism is and see how you were incorrect in your assessments.
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hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Hillary is bad for the struggling middle class in this country.
Until you and the "blinded by her rhetoric" middle class see this, we all have to suffer if she takes the White House.
ALL.OF.US.
So get used to we Bernie supporters continuing to fight for what is best for America.
When Bernie starts to turn things around, and the middle class starts to thrive again, no need to thank us.
We'll just be grateful we have food on the table, decent healthcare, the hope of a nice retirement, and maybe a decent planet to leave our grandkids.
Good night to you too.
Duval
(4,280 posts)brewens
(13,581 posts)House" and a progressive candidate. If Bernie were like Hillary, he'd probably consider a sex change.
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)and as poverty increases as has been the constant. They will lose that comfort and see with new eyes, albeit probably too late to matter.They actually believe life is good for everyone now under policies she would not only continue, but would do so in an ever more rightward fashion, a more corporate fashion.
The actual truth is that as the economy grows stronger only the wealthy see the benefits, while the middle class shrinks and the poor grow both in number and misery index, not to mention that if she had her druthers we would be using our military far more than we are now, one of the reasons she had to be replaced by SoS Kerry.
Hillary Clinton's appetite for war
They make many assumptions from ivory towers of middle class or wealth with little awareness it would seem of those that are lower middle class (quickly falling into poverty even tho they work harder with multiple McJobs than they did before lower middle class meant poverty).
As to the poor - they seem completely oblivious to them and convince themselves that welfare reform didn't harm anybody, I know Hill and Bill believe this, but it did and does to this day I assure you, it was not a pragmatic solution to a "welfare queen" problem handled well because a Democrat helped to all but destroy it. It will not be a brave pragmatic solution to "earned benefit queens" they will likely label SS beneficiaries, as they collude yet again with republicans to begin to shred these last vestiges of the new deal and great society.
They cause the poor to become poorer still while so many in the party applaud the politicians responsible. Their applause and support are what make them just as responsible as their political idols..........
MORE
To understand her military policies look no closer than her NeoCon alliances and advisers, and let us not forget her tutorledge under Kissinger.
To understand the length and breadth of her ingrained New Democrat, Neo-liberal philosophies.
Understand what shaped those views. an excellent and informative op here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027200959
and there are some excerpts here from more of a primer OP which I authored, although Madfloridian's post linked above holds far more detail
After the landslide electoral losses to Ronald Reagan in the 1980s, a group of prominent Democrats began to believe their party was in need of a radical shift in economic policy and ideas of governance. The Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) was founded in 1985 by Al From and a group of like-minded politicians and strategists. They advocated a political "Third Way" as a method to achieve the electoral successes of Reaganism by adopting similar economic policies (Reagan Democrats and Moderate Republicans would provide burgeoning new constituencies after adding these new economic policies and politicians to our tent they contended) While hoping to retain, woman, minorities and other social issues allies with long ties to the party. Such would be their new Democratic coalition forged between fiscal right and social left under the "New" Democratic banner. The DLC disbanded in 2011 during an apparent re-branding of the New Democrat movement when money ties to the Koch bros. and Koch representatives placed on the DLC's board embarrassingly became common knowledge among the Democratic left. The DLC is survived by the Third Way, The New Democrat Coalition, and Al From's Progressive Policy Institute among other corporate funded groups that continue to sell their Economic-Right/Social-Left brand of "Centrism" to America....
snip
....Third Way was created as a serious re-evaluation of political policies within various center-right progressive movements in response to international doubt regarding the economic viability of the state; economic interventionist policies that had previously been popularized by Keynesianism and contrasted with the corresponding rise of popularity for neo liberalism and the New Right. In a sense, 80s Moderate Republicans are almost identical to "Third Way" Democrats.
I strongly believe it's time for a serious re-evaluation of political policies within various center-left progressive movements in response to international doubt regarding the economic viability of the neoliberal corporate policies previously popularized by Reagan and Thatcher! For thirty years we have all but abandoned liberal solutions to economic problems, chasing instead the snake oil of supply side economics, austerity and neoliberal trade policy. These right wing policies have failed miserably, and rather than learn from the New Democrats failed experiments, the center-right faction of the democratic party has chosen instead to double down on failure with more free trade and austerity measures (to include cuts to Social Security).
In the face of a new gilded age of extreme wealth contrasted by an exponentially growing rate of poverty, a rapidly shrinking middle class and the emergence of an elite class of bankers, politicians and other predatory behemoths that are held firmly above the law and enabled to steal the remaining crumbs of wealth held by the masses without repercussion, it is not only time to return to Democratic principles of old that created the strongest most prosperous middle class in our history, it is time to reverse the damage done by the right thinking "New" Democrats and their failed policies with a new populism based on the needs of the people over the elite.....
MORE
Karma13612
(4,552 posts)DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)these people just want to argue.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)insta8er
(960 posts)When you receive huuuuuuuge sums for speaking engagements..you don't associate with those people, in fact you are going to come down on them very hard when you are in charge.
Ex1.H associates with Goldman Sachs but is not one of them(No association)...and will come down on them when she is President.
Ex2.Another example (yours) H is not a progressive, but her association with some progressives....that makes her one of them!
It is really simple if you just know the rules Like when you say something people don't like...you just misspoke.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I'll be speaking for you later today at the grand opening of a new Chevy dealership. And don't worry about a thing--I've got you covered.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)FarPoint
(12,351 posts)I am a Progressive who lives in reality. I know Hillary can win at the Game of Thrones....
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
DrDan
(20,411 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)is to just point at the scoreboard.
Sid
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)LexVegas
(6,060 posts)msongs
(67,398 posts)insta8er
(960 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)No true Scotsman argument?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)somewhat. It's silly I know, but I don't care. Sometimes I'm serious and sometimes I'm not.
But I do believe that no true progressive could in their right mind support Hillary. So there.
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The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)and I won't be voting for your socialist who wants to control production. I'm for privately owned production.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Please link me to that info! I didn't know there was such a person running.
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The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)and that is Bernie Sanders.
cui bono
(19,926 posts).
The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)tendencies. He is to my right on a spectrum. I don't think he is a socialist.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Because the only people who say that are the ones trying to smear him. Anyone paying any attention knows he's not one and he has no desire to control the means of production.
In your own words, "look it up".
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Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)ignore
The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)bye.
Broward
(1,976 posts)The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)and admit it like Sanders.
Broward
(1,976 posts)The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)Broward
(1,976 posts)The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)socialism play
noun so·cial·ism ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm
Popularity: Top 1% of lookups
Simple Definition of socialism
: a way of organizing a society in which major industries are owned and controlled by the government rather than by individual people and companies
Are you a socialist? Please, reveal yourself, don't be ashamed.
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)I'm spring cleaning!
insta8er
(960 posts)folks...yes lets continue with the same old mantra, just put new faces in charge..with the same goals...THEIRS!
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)of the sort?
Why waste your efforts on such nonsense?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)My life is incomplete without locks.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)with faux knews. You being so "far and balanced" and all that you would fit in just fine with like minded folks...
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I have had an epiphany. We need more love and kindness.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I'm loving your post!!!
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)This is just amazing.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)cui bono
(19,926 posts).
ebayfool
(3,411 posts)Too much gold in this thread to go to bed. Dayum. But I do love Samuel Jackson. He reads that to perfection!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)Good Night Moon, maybe?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)floppyboo
(2,461 posts)Pagan Easter!
"It is common to use this time to free yourself from things which hinder progress. As a day of equilibrium, it is a good time to perform self banishings and also perform workings to gain things we have lost, or to gain qualities we wish to have." http://www.thewhitegoddess.co.uk/the_wheel_of_the_year/ostara_-_spring_equinox.asp
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Not my problem now. I'll vote for the nominee, if your precinct didn't go for him, that's on you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)dependent on the bagger vote.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)You folks in the Purity Party don't get to decide who is progressive and who isn't liberal enough. Stop the condescension. It's not getting you any converts
synergie
(1,901 posts)portion of that 6,111,918 who voted for Bernie, but don't share the visceral, right wing hatred for Hillary that many of the rather vocal and rather unsubtle Bernie cheering squad who violate pretty much everything their supposed candidate has ever said.
This level of Hillary hate is usually only found in the right wing cesspools of the internet.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)You know, that vote Hillary won't get in the general.
She'll lose to tRump or Cruz because of it.
Duval
(4,280 posts)synergie
(1,901 posts)how little sanity is involved in these incessant attacks on Hillary from the paranoid conspiracy theories, to outright lies.
You seem to be really upset that Trump is being attacked, and felt the need to attack Hillary in a post that echoes it? I wonder why.
kath
(10,565 posts)edbermac
(15,938 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Sat Mar 19, 2016, 11:29 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
ANYONE who supports Hillary who would actually vote for Hillary over Bernie is NOT progressive.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511534438
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
So actual democrats are not progressive now? Please hide this attack on Democrats, and teach the OP that this is the DEMOCRATIC underground and that we do not appreciate attacks on our party here, if he wishes to attack Dems there are plenty of Conservative sites that would welcome his rhetoric, but this is not one of them.
Thank you, Jury.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Mar 19, 2016, 11:38 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: enough... remember lets try to be civil and stop the attacks
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Go blow your nose.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's an opinion with which I happen to agree. I have been a Democrat all my life -- 72 years. This alert is ridiculous. We don't all agree on who is and who is not a Democrat.
There is no irrefutable litmus test, and until there is, we are all entitled to express our opinions about what being a Democrat entails and who is or is not a Democrat. Ridiculous, annoying alert. Waste of time and energy. Answer the post and explain why you think Hillary is a Democrat. If you do that, we will all learn and thus be enriched. Answering posts you disagree with is what being on a discussion site is about. Go to it.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Kittycat
(10,493 posts)joshcryer
(62,270 posts)But prefer one over the other?
Shocking, I know.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)That goes for anyone who would waste their vote in a write in.......
Your words....
Jenny_92808
(1,342 posts)Not any more because of people like you.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)"You know, I get accused of being kind of moderate and center," Clinton told the audience at a Women for Hillary event in Ohio. "I plead guilty."
"I take a backseat to no one," Clinton told a New Hampshire audience in July, "When you look at my record in standing up and fighting for progressive values."
LonePirate
(13,417 posts)chillfactor
(7,575 posts)if he wins the nomination..yet Bernie supporters say the will never vote for Hillary....so tell me who are the TRUE Democrats? Not Bernie supporters.
OZi
(155 posts)Or maybe the ones that would have voted for Biden over Hillary.
EmperorHasNoClothes
(4,797 posts)Hillary supporters will toe the party line no matter what. TRUE Democrats.
We Bernie supporters, on the other hand, vote our conscience and will not support a warmongering wall street toadie.
comradebillyboy
(10,144 posts)of progressive purity? Did God come down from heaven and anoint you as the gate keeper of progressiveness? You are just some random person on the internet with an opinion like several billion others.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 20, 2016, 03:43 AM - Edit history (2)
https://twitter.com/TheTweetOfGod/status/692911297088897024And you know that's the real God because he only follows one person, The Beebs.
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MFM008
(19,806 posts)Never could get worked up about Sanders, hes just to damn old. To temperamental , to get off my lawn. The things he wants to do will not get through congress. A walk through recent history tells up Obama went in with a democratic congress in his first 2 years, he did bang health care through in March 2010, but that's about it. When we have congressional cowards in our own party what can you do?
As a 57 year old gal, its long past time for a woman in the oval office. If Merkel could run Europe essentially I want to see what HRC can do. No shes not as liberal as I might like, neither was Obama. I promised myself after supporting Obama in 2008 against her, that if she ran again I would vote for her. I don't think she will be as disappointing as you might.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)On every single issue of importance to Progressives his positions are as good or far better than Hillary's. Period.
To insist on Hillary instead of Bernie is to admit that one doesn't really care about Progressive issues.
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)That kind of sweeping arrogant attitude, suggesting that the majority of blacks, gays, and women who support Hillary are not progressive is so narrow minded. Bernie is an economic progressive, which is great, but there are progressives who see aside from economics racism, sexism, and homophobia as linked to other social issues, and need to be addressed in ways other than economic justice. Economic justice is very, very important, but Bernie's message really is too narrow. Economic justice, which is 99% what he focuses on, does not address the reality of microaggressions and institutional bigotry that exists in our culture. While Bernie speaks to those issues, he really only started doing so after a lot of pressure from BLM. Hillary has been involved in those issues far more directly for years, and despite her missteps has won a broad range of support from powerful progressive individuals and groups who represent the oppressed. While Bernie may be more progressive than Hillary, the oppressed are able to understand that Hillary has been quite good as well.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)He doesn't call black kids superpredators, he doesn't take money from private prisons... etc.. etc... etc...
You should educate yourself before posting silly stuff like that.
bigtree
(85,992 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Can we see a chart so we'll know better next time?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)It's Orwellian to think you can be a liberal Neocon.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... condem us sinners.
Well, in all fairness, DU did just lose a high priest of liberalism, so there is a position open.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and I support Hillary.