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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:52 AM Mar 2016

Could Bernie have won, or was it over before it even started?

It's a tough question, but I'm leaning towards the latter. I just don't think Bernie had the breadth of experience and knowledge to every beat Hillary, and also his politics are too far left for a party that strongly approves of Obama's job as president.

There were certainly mistakes that Bernie made. His tone-deafness on race, his failure to come up with any foreign policy outlook. And the fact that when he finally gave some detailed policy proposals, they were based on Madoff-esque accounting.

On the other hand, if Bernie hadn't made those mistakes, and made this a closer race, then Hillary would have dropped her kid-gloves approach and done a more forceful job of pointing out his glaring weaknesses. Part of the reason it's as even close as it is is that she ran a positive campaign, with her eyes on the general, and just basically let Bernie do his thing.

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Could Bernie have won, or was it over before it even started? (Original Post) DanTex Mar 2016 OP
I like Bernie and his policies, but never thought he could get MineralMan Mar 2016 #1
I hope he doesn't retire. He's built up a following, and if he manages to bow out of the race DanTex Mar 2016 #3
I'd love to see him chair some commission kind of like Simpson-Bowles, but aimed at Hoyt Mar 2016 #36
Re: Could Bernie have won, or was it over before it even started? serbbral Mar 2016 #2
No, he couldn't. nt LexVegas Mar 2016 #4
It's tough to beat an incumbent astrophuss42 Mar 2016 #5
He never really had a realistic chance to win. DCBob Mar 2016 #6
Prepare for additional expectation adjustments virtualobserver Mar 2016 #7
I dont think so. DCBob Mar 2016 #23
it is a great tool......but it can't detect the fragility of Hillary's candidacy virtualobserver Mar 2016 #35
Her "inevitability" is stronger now than ever. DCBob Mar 2016 #40
Not really....if it was, Bernie wouldn't still be rising in the national polls virtualobserver Mar 2016 #50
Those national polls really dont mean much at this point in time. DCBob Mar 2016 #61
the consistent upward trend for Bernie does mean a lot...... virtualobserver Mar 2016 #62
Bernie is going to need to convince a huge chunk of Hillary supporters to switch.. DCBob Mar 2016 #63
Hillary isn't home free TheCowsCameHome Mar 2016 #13
Yes she is.. DCBob Mar 2016 #26
1) It's not over 2) You do make some good points. Dawgs Mar 2016 #24
Loyalty is good. DCBob Mar 2016 #29
It's the 40%+ of Dems that will hold their nose (hopefully) to vote for her that she needs. Dawgs Mar 2016 #37
Democrats are moving to the left Dem2 Mar 2016 #8
He should remain in the senate cosmicone Mar 2016 #9
He began a relative unknown versus a celebrity... Orsino Mar 2016 #10
isn't the Hillary echo chamber lovely? virtualobserver Mar 2016 #11
Thanks for the kind complement. So do you think he ever had a chance? DanTex Mar 2016 #12
he still does virtualobserver Mar 2016 #14
At least he didn't give Wall Street banksters all they wanted. Octafish Mar 2016 #15
he could have but it would have required dropping the "one size fits all" approach geek tragedy Mar 2016 #16
Have I missed something? Did I forget to vote? NV Whino Mar 2016 #17
he had no chance frim dayvone. eom artyteacher Mar 2016 #18
Hillary has been very disciplined to not go after Bernie redstateblues Mar 2016 #19
Yes. And I'm glad that it never got close enough that she really needed to go after him. DanTex Mar 2016 #21
Bernie started at 3% and will end just under 50% (+47) Dawgs Mar 2016 #20
As far as I'm aware, the person with over 50% of the votes wins. DanTex Mar 2016 #22
And that has nothing to do with my point. n/t Dawgs Mar 2016 #25
And your point has nothing to do with my OP. DanTex Mar 2016 #28
Actually it does. Dawgs Mar 2016 #32
True for the primaries *and* the GE astrophuss42 Mar 2016 #34
Imagine if the folks who spent 2011 ... JoePhilly Mar 2016 #27
I agree with you that it has been a rigged election. Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #30
Or maybe Bernie is not as popular as you wish RandySF Mar 2016 #33
Nope, just rigged. Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #38
And don't get me started about the moon landing... DanTex Mar 2016 #39
Now that's what I'm sayin' Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #60
The latter RandySF Mar 2016 #31
The big question is: Can Hillary avoid a criminal indictment? HooptieWagon Mar 2016 #41
LOL. You've been reading NYPost articles by FOX News reporter Charles Gasparino. DanTex Mar 2016 #42
C-Span. HooptieWagon Mar 2016 #43
LOL. So they were discussing the Gasparino article on C-SPAN? DanTex Mar 2016 #48
It was very winnable for Bernie but the multiple gaffes regarding POC screwed him over forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #44
If he had made a hard push for the A-A vote, it would have been interesting down the stretch Tarc Mar 2016 #45
He definitely tried forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #49
Another low-cred thread. dchill Mar 2016 #46
they cling to their inevitability and their spin virtualobserver Mar 2016 #51
Sanders ran a good campaign but it was not enough Gothmog Mar 2016 #47
Well..... Adrahil Mar 2016 #52
"he has had never (until now) embraced being a Democrat, or worked to advance party interests..." JonLeibowitz Mar 2016 #53
That's hardly remarkable. Adrahil Mar 2016 #57
Just pointing out falsehoods. JonLeibowitz Mar 2016 #58
If Bernie loses it will be interesting to redstateblues Mar 2016 #54
I listened to Sanders when he started and as time went on I started seeing Thinkingabout Mar 2016 #55
It's not over yet. You wish. eom Betty Karlson Mar 2016 #56
He could have won a three person race firebrand80 Mar 2016 #59
Imagine Obama running for a 3rd term FDR style forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #66
Hillary should send the VP a thank you note for not splitting her vote LettuceSea Mar 2016 #64
The Sanders Campaign was never truly about winning the nomination. Garrett78 Mar 2016 #65

MineralMan

(146,286 posts)
1. I like Bernie and his policies, but never thought he could get
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:54 AM
Mar 2016

the nomination. He's done much better than I expected, but he won't be the nominee. I hope very much that he continues to serve in the Senate, where he serves as the conscience of that body. He may decide to retire, though, after his current term.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
3. I hope he doesn't retire. He's built up a following, and if he manages to bow out of the race
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 09:56 AM
Mar 2016

gracefully and help Hillary win, that would increase his influence in the Senate, and he could be a powerful progressive voice. I think retiring now would be wasting some of the political capital that he has built up just by doing so well.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
36. I'd love to see him chair some commission kind of like Simpson-Bowles, but aimed at
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:29 AM
Mar 2016

transitioning our country more toward the European socialist model and utilizing corporations in some form of partnership with government.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
6. He never really had a realistic chance to win.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:06 AM
Mar 2016

Although he has done much better than I had expected. His only hope would have been some sort of scandal to take Hillary out.. and even then someone like Biden would have jumped in.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
23. I dont think so.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:22 AM
Mar 2016

Bernie had his run but he's in a huge hole now. Barring some new horrific scandal Hillary's got this.

I know you guys hate math but there really is no plausible way Bernie catches up.

Try it yourself...

http://54.85.212.73/demdelcalc/

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
35. it is a great tool......but it can't detect the fragility of Hillary's candidacy
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:28 AM
Mar 2016

Hillary supporters have labored valiantly to maintain her "inevitability", but we are reaching the tipping point.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
40. Her "inevitability" is stronger now than ever.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:36 AM
Mar 2016

Most know she will be the candidate with a few exceptions who post on Democratic Underground.

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
50. Not really....if it was, Bernie wouldn't still be rising in the national polls
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:00 AM
Mar 2016

The last 3 polls have Bernie at either 44% and 45%.

After his next burst of wins.....He will rise to 50% or higher.

The synergy of the poll rise and the wins will seriously damage her "inevitability".

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
61. Those national polls really dont mean much at this point in time.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:59 AM
Mar 2016

I suspect they are still polling states that have already completed primaries/caucuses. You should just focus on the upcoming states. Some look good for Bernie but most are going to go for Hillary or simply a draw which is really all Hillary needs at this point.

Bernie needs blowout wins to catch up. Splitting delegates isnt good enough.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
63. Bernie is going to need to convince a huge chunk of Hillary supporters to switch..
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 12:25 PM
Mar 2016

if he is going to have any realistic chance to win. Not going to happen... short of being indicted or some other major scandal.

The best Bernie can hope for is a prime speaking spot at the convention where he will endorse Hillary for President.

Cheers!

 

Dawgs

(14,755 posts)
24. 1) It's not over 2) You do make some good points.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:23 AM
Mar 2016

Bernie started at <5% and will end just under 50%.

Unfortunately, for Bernie, many in the party are just too loyal to the Clintons.

 

Dawgs

(14,755 posts)
37. It's the 40%+ of Dems that will hold their nose (hopefully) to vote for her that she needs.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:29 AM
Mar 2016

Not the 50%+ of Dems that are loyal.

Dem2

(8,168 posts)
8. Democrats are moving to the left
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:08 AM
Mar 2016

And the Democrats and Republicans are moving further to the left-right respectively overall.

So, I think Bernie is the right candidate for this time.



The exit polls this cycle also show a huge increase in Democrats identifying as "liberal".

These are all good signs (well, the increasing polarization is worrisome), if Bernie was younger, more well-spoken, more appealing to look at, who knows what this primary would look like?

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
10. He began a relative unknown versus a celebrity...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:10 AM
Mar 2016

...possibly too late to have broken through MSM inevitability blockkade, even if he had weakened and taken the easy money his opponent did.

The money thing, perhaps his greatest weakness, is also the source of his magic powers. Most Dems, alas, are still following the money.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
15. At least he didn't give Wall Street banksters all they wanted.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:12 AM
Mar 2016

Bernie Sanders Calls Federal Reserve "Socialism for the Rich" After $16 Trillion Secret Bail-Outs, Including Foreign Banks.

Sen. Hillary Clinton didn't.

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/10609-bernie-sanders-calls-federal-reserve-socialism-for-the-rich-after-16-trillion-secret-bail-outs-including-foreign-banks

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
16. he could have but it would have required dropping the "one size fits all" approach
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:13 AM
Mar 2016

to campaigning.

He would have had to realize that black and Latino voters would not buy into the same arguments that won over young white voters. Precisely because they have a different history and a different perspective on politics, policy and change in this country.


redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
19. Hillary has been very disciplined to not go after Bernie
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:18 AM
Mar 2016

He has many vulnerabilities that she has not exploited. She has always kept her eye on the GE. Another reason I respect her

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
21. Yes. And I'm glad that it never got close enough that she really needed to go after him.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:20 AM
Mar 2016

It would have made getting the party united more challenging. She was able to simply remain above the fray.

Now if only Bernie would rise above the fray and stop the attacks...

 

Dawgs

(14,755 posts)
20. Bernie started at 3% and will end just under 50% (+47)
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:20 AM
Mar 2016

Hillary started at 60% and will end just over 50% (-8)

Maybe you should ask why Hillary lost support and can never get above 60% within her own party.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
27. Imagine if the folks who spent 2011 ...
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:24 AM
Mar 2016

.... calling for a primary of Obama, followed by three plus years complaining about Obama, had instead put their time and effort into building up a set of sufficiently liberal candidates for 2016.

Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
38. Nope, just rigged.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:31 AM
Mar 2016

Think about it, even a sitting Vice President was afraid to challenge her. This has been rigged in her favor internally from the start.

If you can't acknowledge that, then you just aren't being honest with yourself.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
41. The big question is: Can Hillary avoid a criminal indictment?
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:41 AM
Mar 2016

It's sounding less and less likely. Word is the 150 FBI investigators are confident Director Comey is going to recommend charges being filed. It remains to be seen if Obama and Lynch follow through, but if they stonewall, several FBI investigators have said they'll go public with the evidence. That will not only pour gasoline on the GOP firestorm, but also make a shitshow out of Obamas remaining months in office, when he'd prefer to be polishing up his legacy.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
44. It was very winnable for Bernie but the multiple gaffes regarding POC screwed him over
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:48 AM
Mar 2016

If Bernie just loses black voters by 60-40 or even 70-30 instead of 80-20 or 90-10 in some areas (60-40 nationally means he's losing the Southern states by "only" 10-20 points, winning the Rust Belt states seeing 70-30 won him Michigan, and is probably no more than 100 delegates behind at this point), he's easily within striking distance. That's just ONE factor. I bet you the John Lewis shit probably lost him this primary. If not that, then the Reddit/4chan-tier BernieBro shit which so many Sanders' supporters refuse to admit is a thing. That alone probably lost him 3-5% points with POC nationally.

I think Hillary was somewhat vulnerable on the issue despite her decades of outreach and presence (because of the 90s shit and the Obama campaign), but it needed a more refined and sensitive approach to get headway, not the massive butthurt and desperate pandering that the campaign and (moreso) the supporters did, and definitely not the butthurt borderline-Trumpian dogwhistle politics that followed (there was literally a fucking graph that said "IF AMERICA HAD NO BLACK PEOPLE BERNIE WOULD BE WINNING&quot

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
49. He definitely tried
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 10:55 AM
Mar 2016

But he screwed up, and his supporters torpedoed it. He didn't need to *win*, just keep it close. If anything, what would have helped was better establishing that both he and Clinton can beat Trump while not making major gaffes. Again, he doesn't need to win AAs, just not get obliterated, and in particular, millennial AAs were slowly but surely breaking for him until they were reminded just why they don't believe in white-passing (because Sanders isn't exactly white) progressives.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
52. Well.....
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:01 AM
Mar 2016

I think there is a hunger in the Democratic base to advance progressive policies, and one thing Bernie DOES do is advance his positions on his policies (mostly progressive) unapologetically.

However, he's not very politically savvy. He has not, in his time in Washington, shown any significant ability to build a coalition or make deals, and that's essential in political leader. Some people don't like that because it means making compromises, and even supporting positions that you might not really support in your heart. But it is how the American political system actually works. And Bernie is bad at it.

Add to that the fact that despite caucusing with democrats for years, he has had never (until now) embraced being a Democrat, or worked to advance party interests, infrastructure, etc.

All those things make actually getting the party nomination very hard IMO. But I'll be honest, I have never-the-less been impressed with how much support he has gotten.

I hope it represents a chance at a fundamental level in the party. But I hope it is WITHIN the party and actually advances party candidates at all levels.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
53. "he has had never (until now) embraced being a Democrat, or worked to advance party interests..."
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:11 AM
Mar 2016

I seem to recall Bernie getting slammed for attending DSCC fundraisers outside of his election cycle. Which is it?

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
57. That's hardly remarkable.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:27 AM
Mar 2016

He needs to build the party all over the place, IMO.

Whatever you think of her, HRC has gone to great efforts to build party infrastructure.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
58. Just pointing out falsehoods.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:28 AM
Mar 2016

Absolute statements only require a single counterexample to be discredited.

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
54. If Bernie loses it will be interesting to
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:12 AM
Mar 2016

See if he continues to organize and get his peeps out in the midterms

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
55. I listened to Sanders when he started and as time went on I started seeing
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:16 AM
Mar 2016

Red flags. His agenda is not realistic and dead before it ever gets to Congress. Issues arising during the campaign has brought on more questions of leadership.

firebrand80

(2,760 posts)
59. He could have won a three person race
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 11:33 AM
Mar 2016

If he had two candidates in the race to the right of him.

Bernie's ideas could win a dem primary, but they have to be packaged differently.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
66. Imagine Obama running for a 3rd term FDR style
Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:07 AM
Mar 2016

on Bernie's platform, or even FDR's 2nd/Economic Bill of Rights?

Also it's important to remember that the 2 term limit was pushed by a Republican Congress because they could never, ever beat a popular progressive incumbent like FDR straight up.

I'd love to find out the polls on an Obama/Trump matchup actually.

LettuceSea

(337 posts)
64. Hillary should send the VP a thank you note for not splitting her vote
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 12:28 PM
Mar 2016

As in, give him anything he wants.

If Joe is in the race, Bernie would be winning.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
65. The Sanders Campaign was never truly about winning the nomination.
Tue Mar 22, 2016, 04:15 PM
Mar 2016

While my line about Trump is probably going to come back and bite me, I turn to what I wrote in an August 2015 post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251541941

Just as I find it odd that some are pro-Obama but anti-Clinton, I find it odd that people who seem to grasp what is so wrong with the US political system also though Sanders was truly viable. There's an obvious disconnect there.

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