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Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:56 AM

 

Time to make people mad: The modern left sucks and this primary proves it.

Oh not the ideas; I'm probably to the left of 95% of everyone on this forum. In my ideal Overton Window, Bernie would be running as the Republican and his current stances would be closer to the right-wing of the Republicans. Social democracy and democratic socialism are awesome, if not expansive enough for my tastes. But I have had to face the fact that the left fucking sucks at bottom-up organizing and is always dormant waiting for a savior like Bernie or Obama to do the work they refuse to do. They sit at their well paid CounterPunch or AlterNet posts bitching about how shitty things are while the centrists are in the streets organizing and reaching out to people to win votes and political power. The old labor organizers and Communists were literally fighting in the streets to build a mass movement, often facing real life gunfire to do it, and we're sitting here saying all is lost or trying to unskew the polls because one leftist candidate is losing. The irony is that Bernie understands this which is why he talked about changing Congress, trying to build a movement for progressive ideas, whether he wins the nomination or not, trying to get more progressive candidates and campaigners in the system (though his execution has been flawed). But the left is refusing to have it, they don't realize that Bernie is losing because they didn't spend years organizing on the ground, reaching out to core groups and moving them leftward. Hillary isn't as good as Obama at organizing, but at least she's trying.

The American left should have spent every year after 2000 grooming candidates to run at the local/state level, organizing on the ground level in conjunction with minorities, African Americans, and other key groups, and creating a critical mass that would not only push mainstream candidates left, but keep the pressure on even in defeat. But instead the Left expects people to vote and act purely on ideology, without having done the ground work of outreach (or even worse, you take Reddit hype as actual outreach) Look at the Right and how they've done it. They've managed to push public policy far right in the face of TWO Democratic wave elections and the election of Obama. They've effectively repealed Roe in many states, and are now successfully assaulting LBG (and ESPECIALLY T) rights in several states. If only the Right could take it's ball and go home the way the left does.

You don't have to like Hillary or vote for her in the primary. I don't. But you can give her critical support (as in, support her because she's not a fascist, and exert pressure on her to force her to triangulate left, not right, unless you don't believe people power can overcome corporate power). I'd love to elect someone who's truly for progressive values, but if it doesn't happen, then you can still make it happen by not taking your ball and going home. I mean, bottom up progressive activism got the entire Democratic Party to flip on such topics as Civil Rights (while getting a Southern racist from Texas named Lyndon Johnson to sign the Civil Rights Act), gay rights, and drug laws.

If the political revolution can't go forward even if Bernie loses, then it was doomed from the start.

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Reply Time to make people mad: The modern left sucks and this primary proves it. (Original post)
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 OP
msanthrope Mar 2016 #1
DanTex Mar 2016 #2
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #3
djean111 Mar 2016 #4
Post removed Mar 2016 #5
djean111 Mar 2016 #6
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #7
djean111 Mar 2016 #28
Puglover Mar 2016 #8
Trajan Mar 2016 #9
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #10
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #12
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #24
CalvinballPro Mar 2016 #56
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #64
CalvinballPro Mar 2016 #65
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #66
CalvinballPro Mar 2016 #67
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #13
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #25
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #27
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #36
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #37
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #40
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #41
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #44
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #45
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #47
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #49
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #52
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #55
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #60
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #63
Lucinda Mar 2016 #11
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #14
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #17
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #19
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #21
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2016 #23
islandmkl Mar 2016 #15
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #20
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #26
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #29
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #31
islandmkl Mar 2016 #42
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #43
mmonk Mar 2016 #16
whatchamacallit Mar 2016 #18
Starry Messenger Mar 2016 #22
Hiraeth Mar 2016 #30
djean111 Mar 2016 #33
baldguy Mar 2016 #32
whatchamacallit Mar 2016 #46
baldguy Mar 2016 #57
Avalux Mar 2016 #34
taught_me_patience Mar 2016 #35
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #38
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #48
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #50
geek tragedy Mar 2016 #54
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #59
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #53
Bread and Circus Mar 2016 #61
forjusticethunders Mar 2016 #39
jeff47 Mar 2016 #51
Maedhros Mar 2016 #58
workinclasszero Mar 2016 #62

Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 09:59 AM

1. This. nt

 

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:02 AM

2. Good post.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:03 AM

3. the left does not exist as a movement. there are issue movements like choice, GLBT rights,

 

climate change, etc.

but there is no movement that encompasses the left. it just doesn't exist. those who claim to uphold it either get coopted or are content to sit back and whine.

their natural allies in any struggle are people of color--Latinos and African-Americans especially.

But the keyboard revolutionaries prefer condescension and lecturing to outreach and listening, and we saw the results in Florida and Texas.


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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:04 AM

4. Oh, gee, yeah, let's let someone tell us to just give up.

 

You are fairly pretty new here - so maybe it has not come to your attention that Hilary has absolutely no fucking intention of doing anything remotely like moving a millimeter to the left. She would likely laugh in your face if you said that to her, personally.

Hillary will always be a Third Way neo-con, for war and fracking and the TPP and triangulation that always always slides us more to the right. And DWS and her DNC will keep shuffling the deck until there are no more Progressives to even bother with; Debbie can stop them at the gate by withholding support, and she does that, and worse - she openly supports, campaigns and votes for her GOP buddies down here in Florida.

This is really another "you better support Hillary" OP. A "Bernie BUT" OP.

Oh, and the political revolution WILL go forward, thanks for your kind mention.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #4)


Response to Post removed (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:21 AM

6. So - to be clear - you are calling us, Bernie's supporters, dog shit.

 

And I am not whining, I am merely answering you. That is a pretty old and familiar tactic, calling any answer to a criticism as whinging and whining. Also, you have no idea, evidently, what people are doing outside of DU.

Really?
thin-skinned pricks like you
- losing your little temper there, sweetheart, and going for crude personal attacks? Sounds to me like you are just rolling around, reveling in the opportunity to insult people, under the cover of "Bernie supporter".

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Response to djean111 (Reply #6)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:25 AM

7. Well, you're the one getting mad

 

When someone criticizes the "movement". A movement that cannot take criticism is dead in the water. Not only have some (not all) Bernie supporters refused to take criticism, they've harassed and brigaded people for daring to say that Bernie's campaign hasn't been flawless.

I mean, just because I'm a Bernie supporter I have to just ignore the racist dog-whistles (Stockholm Syndrome? Red states don't count until they don't have black people? "Bernie would be winning if there were no black people?" that have been coming out (similar to how another campaign went full dog-whistle mode when black people stopped voting for them...)

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #7)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:15 AM

28. I am not mad, my dear fellow/madam/whatever. I am bemused.

 

No one on the internet can make me actually angry. I cannot imagine ceding anyone that power, really!
You do seem awfully invested in pushing the notion that I am angry, though. Odd.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #6)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:29 AM

8. That is exact what is going on here.

Doesn´t take a rocket scientist to see it.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #5)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:33 AM

9. How nice ...

 

Gone with the fucking wind ....

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:38 AM

10. That would start with being willing to allow the Democratic Party to lose elections for a while.

Are you ready for that sacrifice while you build a new left coalition?

Or do you have this fantasy that you can actually take over the reigns of the Democratic Party, which is apparently corrupt from top to bottom and its probable standard bearer is a corporatist likudnik?

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:47 AM

12. Depends on how you do it.

 

FDR didn't lose elections when the Socialists, Communists and populists like Huey Long pushed him to the left after he ran on a Bourbon Democrat platform.
Truman didn't lose elections when the first stirrings of the Civil Rights movement pushed him to desegregate.
LBJ didn't lose elections when he was pushed to sign the Civil Rights act after building his career as a racist Southern Democrat.

Also the easiest way for the Democrats to triangulate right is to have them lose to Trump or Cruz and make it look like bigotry and racism are a winning political combination.

Also the coalition is *already there* - you just need to organize, outreach and tie it together.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #12)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:09 AM

24. Go for it. Let me know how well it works out for you.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #24)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:08 PM

56. Right, because it's always up to others to do the hard lifting that you're demanding. Never you, eh?

 

You're pretty much the living example of all that is wrong with leftist activism. Talk a giant game and then produce absolutely nothing.

Genuine change can't be accomplished through your keyboard or social media, so why bother, right?

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Response to CalvinballPro (Reply #56)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:14 PM

64. He was the demanding or suggesting action, not me.

I said go for it.

What's your problem?

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #64)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 02:52 PM

65. Oh, right, you're the one advocating for GOP control, because reasons.

 

I'm sure you're white enough to survive unscathed, though. How "progressive" of you to toss women, gays, and minorities under the bus in the name of your purity.

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Response to CalvinballPro (Reply #65)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 03:31 PM

66. You are being stupid.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #66)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 03:41 PM

67. You are being ignored.

 

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #10)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:49 AM

13. building the left should in no way help the Republicans win elections.

 

Republicans winning elections are always a bad thing, a very bad thing.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #13)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:11 AM

25. Four legs good! Two legs bad. Always very bad.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #25)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:12 AM

27. no one of good conscience ever wants the Republicans to win an election

 

This is an easy litmus test to follow.

Those who want Republicans to win an election, are Republicans.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #27)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:30 AM

36. I am just saying you sound like a sheep from Animal Farm.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #36)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:31 AM

37. no, this is what a rational liberal Democrat sounds like.

 

merely because we do not shriek hysterically and root for the enemy does not make us sheep

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #37)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:35 AM

40. Go read Animal Farm, you sound just like a sheep.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #40)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:39 AM

41. I read Animal Farm, and I know exactly what you are

 

Looking forward to June 7.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #41)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:52 AM

44. Well, you sound just like a sheep from the book.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #44)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:52 AM

45. no matter how many times you post that same tedious insult, it doesn't get

 

any more clever, or true.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #45)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:53 AM

47. You use almost the exact same words. It is true.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #47)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:56 AM

49. You have admitted your only goal is to cause the Democrats to lose elections, that is your agenda.

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1559623

That makes you something far worse than a sheep. That makes you functionally an ally of Ted Cruz and Donald J. Trump

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #49)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:03 PM

52. I think you have reading comprehension problems.

You also seem to fancy yourself as having extra sensory powers. I suggest you work on the former and forget the latter.

I suggest you start by reading Animal Farm again as a start.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #52)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:07 PM

55. I suggest you start by visiting with family members of those who got blown up in Iraq

 

thanks to the war George W Bush and his useful idiot Naderites helped bring us

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #55)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:25 PM

60. You mean the one Hillary Clinton voted for?

When she casted her vote with conviction?

And now, like a likudnik, she is saber rattling again?

Yeah, let's talk about that.

Let's talk about how the Democratic Party is about to nominate a pro war candidate.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #55)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 01:22 PM

63. I see you have nothing to say now that you reminded us all...

Of the war Hillary voted for with conviction.

Good.

I hope you do take time to comprehend the death and suffering.

P.S. I voted for Gore and Kerry.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:42 AM

11. I would add this to your very well reasoned post

In order to make a permanent leftward change in the country, we also need to counter the years of right wing hate aimed at GOP voters, with a concerted effort to move the moderate right, leftward. Then we would have a solid majority. I think the fact that Trump has gained traction this season, shows that there is deep dissatisfaction within the GOP.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:49 AM

14. What's more "bottom up" than voting for a Leftist in the GE?

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #14)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:52 AM

17. Organizing, convincing people, and creating a self-sustaining movement

 

So that we can vote for more than ONE leftist in the GE, that other people can vote for the leftists, and that if we fail to get leftists elected, we can try to move the centrists left.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #17)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:02 AM

19. Why not vote for a Leftist that's is running in the GE?

 

And, what better way of "organizing" and "convincing people" than the Left running a candidate?

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #19)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:04 AM

21. And that's why the leftist candidate in the primary

 

is not only losing, but losing among the most oppressed groups in the primary. Something isn't computing here. Sanders went from winning under 50k earners to losing them big. How the hell does that happen?

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #21)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:07 AM

23. How the hell does voting for a moderate help the Left?

 

How did electing the likes of Bill Clinton move the country leftward? Welfare reform? NAFTA?

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:52 AM

15. your knowledge of 'the left' is remarkably shallow, especially considering what you claim to be...

what apparatus should 'the left' have utilized since 2000?...the fucking DLC/Third Way Party that overtook the Democratic Party after 1988?...yeah, it's nice to have the hindsight to see how the goddam wolves-in-sheep's-clothing hijacked the Party and about all they have to show for it is two Presidents who face dwindling/non-existent congressional support thanks to losing off-year elections like they were intentionally helping ruin the American middle class....

one thing you said is revealing...in fact, it is just one word: TRIANGULATE

The DLC/TW have done as much to push things rightward as the Repubs have...in fact, they have helped force the Right Wing even further right....

Of course, having little or no true DNC support for those at the grassroots level is, apparently, the fault of the people at the bottom...

because organizing is easy....

I will say this: your Third Way analysis of "the Left" is pretty true to form...and anticipated...

"I'm probably to the left of 95% of everyone on this forum."...said by anyone truly right of center...thinking they are 'left'...

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Response to islandmkl (Reply #15)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:03 AM

20. So what did the left do in response to the rise of the Third Way?

 

Protest?
Try to win in local and state elections?
Go into the streets and try to explain why Third Way politics would screw them over?
Do outreach, organizing and social work in disadvantage communities like the center-leftist (with the huge emphasis on center) Obama did?
Why is the most prominent community organizer since MLK a centrist University of Chicago grad?

Are you seeing the problem yet?
The Left needs to put some boots on the ground like they did in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #20)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:12 AM

26. I just don't think you understand how politics and political power works.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #26)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:17 AM

29. The Dems have 2 big wave elections in a row.

 

The far right instantly organize and run candidates against both Dems and moderate Repubs at every level, move the party to the right, and retake both houses within 6 years. That's also how we got Reagan 16 years after Goldwater got annihilated.

The Repubs have big wave elections
The Left does...
???
????
?????

That's how political power works when you're fighting the Establishment. And as much as Bernie is a better candidate ideologically than Hillary, let's not pretend that he can't be pushed into triangulation, hell I'd call the F-35 support (tepid as "I don't like this plane but if we have to have it let's build it in my state), the votes for intervention in Kosovo, and other votes a form of triangulation to interests that aren't exactly leftist.

That's the problem we're seeing, there's no big picture vision among the movement, it's always "our candidate or we're doomed" instead of "if we don't get our guy today, we'll get him later".

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #29)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:20 AM

31. I don't blame you though

 

This primary has taught me a lot. The lessons are there for everyone who wants leftism in this country to see, but too many want to ignore it. The biggest issue is that it's the centrists like Obama and Hillary doing the outreach.

Even if we suddenly became a Democratic Socialist system tomorrow, capitalism would come roaring back if the capitalists do a better job of responding to people's concerns and the socialists rest on their laurels.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #31)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:40 AM

42. a simple question, with no criticism built in, just a question:

do you know, remember, or have any experience, with the Democratic Party and its core values and the principles it promoted prior to the way the Party runs today?

the fight isn't between capitalism and socialism...they both have too many facets to try to simplify into a 'this or that' comparison...

it's the unbridled greed that can fester with poorly-regulated capitalism that has become the issue...adopting tenets of a Democratic Socialist system, much of which already exists in the USA, appears to be the only program we can institute to fight the ongoing destruction of the American middle class...

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Response to islandmkl (Reply #42)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:49 AM

43. I support Democratic Socialism

 

except where it may not be sufficient. But that's not the point, the point is how we get there.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 10:52 AM

16. This is a part of the start.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:00 AM

18. "The left shoulda..." Who are the left? What is their shared apparatus of organization?

The Democratic Party? Cuz that's a sick joke. I laugh at these posts that artificially bundle large and disparate groups of people, who share little other than some ideology, into monolithic, self-organizing entities that can be blamed. Silly.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:06 AM

22. Very true.

The left has to stop siloing into little enclaves too.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:17 AM

30. shoulda, woulda, coulda. welcome to ignore.

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Response to Hiraeth (Reply #30)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:24 AM

33. Yup. that is the way to go, methinks!

 

I should have done that in the first place.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:23 AM

32. You're right. There are no "movement progressives" to counter the RW.

 

Sanders and his supporters keep proclaiming that his campaign is the result of a revolution. If so, then where are the candidates supporting him? The Presidency isn't the only office that matters, or has influence over the direction the country takes. There are 100 Senate seats, 435 House seats, 50 Governorships, and 7383 State legislative seats where the officeholders make decisions every day that greatly effect Americans lives. If this is a revolution, these nascent revolutionaries (I can't say they're really any part of "the left" should be able to list hundreds of candidates for office supporting it.

Another tell-tale is what these nascent revolutionaries will do when they lose. And they will lose. Will they regroup, buckle down, and work twice as hard for the next round of campaigning & elections? Or will they evaporate?

History shows that they'll evaporate. Either they "compromise their principles" and vote for the winning Democratic candidate - meaning that they grow up & realize those lofty principles they fought so hard for (not really) are shit & actually don't get anything progressive accomplished. Or just sit at home to pout & whine on Election Day. Or, they'll latch onto a third party Don Quixote, who may be superficially "liberal", but often has some very problematic, not-very-liberal views on important issues - which they will of course sweep aside & ignore. Some will even cast a supposed "protest vote" for the Republican ("that'll show those nasty, nasty Demon-crats!" - with varying levels of enthusiasm.

OTOH, it seems that whenever anyone actually works to create a base of support to vote for real progressive candidates, and get progressive legislation passed, these nascent revolutionaries dismiss them out-of-hand as party hacks, or Third Way, or corporatists, or just simply corrupt & cowardly - precisely reflecting what the RW propaganda machine has been saying for decades. And then they dream up conspiracies to excuse their losses & justify their lack of support for Democrats.

They can't seem to grasp the fact that democracy is hard. IT'S MEANT TO BE! Creating a real movement is what the leaders in the Democratic Party - that they're so happy to demonize - have been doing for decades. Sure, there are problems with the system that we have - but to even begin to fix those problems we need to have people in office to do it! When these nascent revolutionaries take their ball and go home they create the environment which they're so dissatisfied with. I guess that's why they're such a useful tool for the RW to use against the Democratic Party.

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Response to baldguy (Reply #32)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:53 AM

46. Why would the aristocracy join the revolution?

They're doing just fine.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #46)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:09 PM

57. What revolution?

 

I just see one unsuccessful Presidential wannabe & a bunch of whiners following him around who think he's the Dali Lama.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:27 AM

34. You seem to have a gripe with apathy.

Apathy is epidemic in our country, with over half of us completely disengaged from the political process. That, to me, is the biggest problem we have.

So.....what have you been doing, personally, to inspire people to participate in our democracy (or what's left of it)?

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:29 AM

35. Maybe the left isn't as big as you think it is

 

And that's why the "revolution" can't get off the ground.

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Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #35)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:31 AM

38. The "left" is big enough to get a lot of Democrats "not elected" if it galavanized and chose to.

Not saying it should. Just saying it could.

My opinion is to actually wield power you have to wield it.

The only real power the left of which the OP speaks is to cause enough pain to force the Democratic Party to respond.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #38)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:55 AM

48. you talk like someone who's here to help Republicans win elections, not contribute

 

anything to the common good.

The only real power the left of which the OP speaks is to cause enough pain to force the Democratic Party to respond.


The pain would be felt by women, and the GLBT community, and Latinos, and poor people, and the middle class, and African-Americans.

To suggest that the left's only alternative is to cause that kind of "pain" indicates that you are not of the left, but rather someone of great privilege who has a sadistic streak thus causing them to root for Republicans in elections.

You do not belong on a left wing website, or a progressive website, or a Democratic website.



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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #48)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:00 PM

50. Just stating the truth, not encouraging it.

If the progressive left made a list of demands and voted en bloc to cause the Democratic Party to lose elections until the Democratic Party moved left, the Democratic Party would move left.

Not saying they should, just saying they could.

Until they would be willing to do that, the "left" is held hostage to whatever the corporate heads of the Democratic Party want it to do.

Most voters are just sheep. Anyone in power knows that.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #50)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:06 PM

54. yeah, that whole Nader thing worked out great for you people in 2000.

 

I consider Naderites to be moral inferiors to Republicans.

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Response to Bread and Circus (Reply #50)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:10 PM

59. When has a leftist party EVER moved leftward

 

by losing?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #48)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:03 PM

53. That's literally what I'm talking about.

 

A movement for the common person wants to condemn that same person to fascist oppression in hopes of provoking a 1917 style revolution (as if that was the only way to do socialism).

This is exactly like the DISGUSTING KPD members who thought letting Hitler rise to power would help them get the revolution going in Germany.

And they want this because bottom up grassroots organizing and dealing with diverse constituencies is too haaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.

It doesn't occur to the "Left" that they're the ones that should be improving their approach, not punishing oppressed people for not voting for them.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Reply #53)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:27 PM

61. You don't seem to know what you are talking about so you and your buddy are making stuff up.

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Response to taught_me_patience (Reply #35)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 11:33 AM

39. People support progressive policy positions

 

But that doesn't translate into support for progressive candidates who do a mediocre job in campaigning and building actual grassroots support (Sanders has done well if you grade him on a curve given his last-minute candidacy, but elections aren't won on a curve). Black people aren't voting 80-20 for Hillary because they're conservative centrists.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:01 PM

51. We were.

The American left should have spent every year after 2000 grooming candidates to run at the local/state level, organizing on the ground level in conjunction with minorities, African Americans, and other key groups, and creating a critical mass that would not only push mainstream candidates left, but keep the pressure on even in defeat.

We were.

When you actually try to do that, you'll find the party leadership really doesn't like it, and works very hard against us.

Perhaps you could pull yourself away from your unpaid position on DU "bitching about how shitty things are" and help us displace the party leadership that prefers an empty ballot to the "wrong kind of Democrat".

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:10 PM

58. I'm laughing at the 'superior' intellect.

 

/ignore.

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Response to forjusticethunders (Original post)

Wed Mar 23, 2016, 12:32 PM

62. Excellent post OP

 

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