2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forum"Independent Bernie Sanders of Vermont " voted with the NRA
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19910509&id=qqceAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Y84EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5969,2348972&hl=enbeam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm
Q: For a decade, you said that holding gun manufacturers legally responsible for mass shootings is a bad idea. Do you want to shield gun companies from lawsuits?
SANDERS: Of course not. This was a large and complicated bill. There were provisions in it that I think made sense. For example, do I think that a gun shop in the state of Vermont that sells legally a gun to somebody, and that somebody goes out and does something crazy, that that gun shop owner should be held responsible? I don't. On the other hand, where you have manufacturers and where you have gun shops knowingly giving guns to criminals or aiding and abetting that, of course we should take action.
Source: 2015 CNN Democratic primary debate in Las Vegas , Oct 13, 2015
http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm
....However, the Nation and the other reports like it dont shed real light on where Sanders is coming from. They dont explain why he supports some gun controls but not others. Nor do they ask if theres a consistency to Sanders positions and votes over the years? They simply suggest that Bernies position is muddled and makes a good target for Hillary.
Yet there is an explanation. Its consistent and simpler than many pundits think. And its in Bernies own words dating back to the campaign where he was first elected to the U.S. Housein 1990where he was endorsed by the NRA, even after Sanders told them that he would ban assault rifles. That year, Bernie faced Republican incumbent Peter Smith, who beat him by less than 4 percentage points in a three-way race two years before.
In that 1988 race, Bernie told Vermont sportsmen that he backed an assault weapons ban. Smith told the same sportsmens groups that he opposed it, but midway through his first term he changed his mind and co-sponsored an assault rifle baneven bringing an AK-47 to his press conference. That about-face was seen as a betrayal and is the background to a June 1990 debate sponsored by the Vermont Federation of Sportsmens Clubs.
I was at that debate with Smith and three other candidatesas the Sanders campaign press secretaryand recorded it. Bernie spoke at length three times and much of what he said is relevant today, and anticipates his congressional record on gun control ever since. Look at how Bernie describes what being a sportsperson is in a rural state, where he is quick to draw the line with weapons that threaten police and have no legitimate use in huntinghe previously was mayor of Vermonts biggest city, and his record of being very clear with the gun lobby and rural people about where he stands. His approach, despite the Nations characterization, isnt open-minded.
As you can see, Berniewho moved to rural northeastern Vermont in the late 1960shas an appreciation and feeling for where hunting and fishing fit into the lives of lower income rural people. Hes not a hunter or a fisherman. When he grew up in Brooklyn, he was a nerdy jockbeing captivated by ideas and a high school miler who hoped for a track scholarship for college. But like many people who settled in Vermont for generations, he was drawn to its freer and greener pastures and respected its local culture.
I went before the sportsmen of Vermont and said that I have concerns about certain types of assault weapons that have nothing to do with hunting. I believe in hunting. I will not support any legislation that limits the rights of Vermonters or any other hunters to practice what they have enjoyed for decades. I do have concerns about certain types of assault weapons.
That was not the end of his remarks. But it is worth noting that his separating the rights of traditional hunters from the concerns of police chiefs has been a constant thread in many subsequent votes he would take in Congress. Its also noteworthy that Bernie consistently has opposed assault weapons from the late 1980sbefore he was in Congresswhich he reiterated to the moderator.
http://www.salon.com/2015/10/10/what_bernies_gun_control_critics_get_wrong_partner/
Next, the 1990 debate turned to gun control. The moderator, who clearly was a Second Amendment absolutist, went after Bernieto test his mettle after Smiths about-face.
Do you support additional restrictions on firearms? Do you support additional restrictive firearms legislation? he asked. Bernie Sanders, explain yourself, yes or no?
Yes, he replied. Two years ago, I went before the Vermont Sportsmans Federation and was asked exactly the same question. It was a controversial question. I know how they felt on the issue. And that was before the DiConcini Bill. That was before a lot of discussion about the Brady Bill. That was before New Jersey and California passed bills limiting assault weapons.
I went before the sportsmen of Vermont and said that I have concerns about certain types of assault weapons that have nothing to do with hunting. I believe in hunting. I will not support any legislation that limits the rights of Vermonters or any other hunters to practice what they have enjoyed for decades. I do have concerns about certain types of assault weapons.
That was not the end of his remarks. But it is worth noting that his separating the rights of traditional hunters from the concerns of police chiefs has been a constant thread in many subsequent votes he would take in Congress. Its also noteworthy that Bernie consistently has opposed assault weapons from the late 1980sbefore he was in Congresswhich he reiterated to the moderator.
I said that before the election, he continued. The Vermont sportspeople, as is their right, made their endorsement. The endorsed Peter Smith. They endorsed Paul Poirier. I lost that election by about three-and-one-half percentage points, a very close election. Was my failure to get that endorsement pivotal? It might have been. We dont know. Maybe it was. Maybe it wasnt. All I can say is I told the sportspeople of Vermont what I believe before the election and I am going to say it again.
I do believe we need to ban certain types of assault weapons. I have taked to police chiefs. I have talked to the police officers out on the street. I have read some of the literature all over this country. Police chiefs, police officers are concerned about the types of weapons which are ending up in the hands of drug dealers and other criminals and our police oficers are getting outgunned.
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernies-gun-control-critics-are-wrong-his-stance-has-been-consistent-decades
WASHINGTON, April 17 Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.
Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities, Sanders said. There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others, Sanders added.
The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories, Sanders said.
Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales up to 40 percent of all gun transfers at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between family, friends, and neighbors.
In a separate roll call, the Senate rejected a proposal to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. That proposal was defeated by a vote of 60 to 40.
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban
Bernie Sanders voted for the 1994 crime bill because it included the Violence against Women Act and assault weapons ban:
A spokesman for Sanders said he voted for the bill "because it included the Violence Against Women Act and the ban on certain assault weapons."
Sanders reiterated his opposition to capital punishment in 2015. "I just dont think the state itself, whether its the state government or federal government, should be in the business of killing people," he said on a radio show.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/02/viral-image/where-do-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-stand-/
If he's a pro-NRA/pro-gun industry shill why did the NRA give him a lifetime D- rating?
Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #1)
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beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)1. A person who takes a keen interest in firearms and ammunition, possibly including the study, peer discussion, ownership, bearing and use thereof - usually used playingly by oneself or by other firearms enthusiasts in this sense. Often associates with people with similar interests.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gun+nut
Yesterday, Clinton hit Obama for calling Pennsylvanians "bitter," ground on which he fairly ably engaged.
Today, she's onto the other half of his San Francisco remarks, in which he linked economic frustration to clinging to religion and guns (the part he sought to walk back this morning in Muncie, Ind.).
"Sen. Obama's remarks are elitist, and they are out of touch," Clinton said. "The people of faith I know don't 'cling to' religion because they're bitter. ... I also disagree with Sen. Obama's assertion that people in this country 'cling to guns' and have certain attitudes about immigration or trade simply out of frustration. People of all walks of life hunt and they enjoy doing so because it's an important part of their life, not because they are bitter."
http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2008/04/hillary-hits-obama-on-faith-guns-007747
But Clinton hasnt always been so forceful in her fight for gun control. As the Post highlights, Clinton has dramatically shifted her tone on gun control since the 2008 campaign. While Clinton touted her husbands record record on gun control (former President Bill Clinton signed into the law an assault weapons ban that has since lapsed) she also heralded personal memories of learning to shoot with her father and defend gun ownership, saying, there is not a contradiction between protecting Second Amendment rights and the effort to reduce crime.
You know, my dad took me out behind the cottage that my grandfather built on a little lake called Lake Winola outside of Scranton and taught me how to shoot when I was a little girl, Clinton said while campaigning ahead of the Indiana primary, where white working class Democrats propelled her to a narrow victory over then-Sen. Barack Obama. You know, some people now continue to teach their children and their grandchildren. Its part of culture. Its part of a way of life. People enjoy hunting and shooting because its an important part of who they are. Not because they are bitter, she continued, in a dig at Obamas remark at a fundraiser that disenfranchised Americans often cling to cultural symbols like guns and religion.
http://www.salon.com/2015/07/10/hillary_clinton_goes_bold_on_gun_safety_but_she_sounded_a_different_note_in_2008/
WAUSAU, WIS. -- At a campaign stop this afternoon, Hillary Clinton's focus was on the economy and health care but some in the crowd had other things on their minds. Clinton was asked to discuss gun control which prompted Clinton to talk about her days holding a rifle in the cold, shallow waters in backwoods Arkansas.
"I've hunted. My father taught me how to hunt. I went duck hunting in Arkansas. I remember standing in that cold water, so cold, at first light. I was with a bunch of my friends, all men. The sun's up, the ducks are flying and they are playing a trick on me. They said, 'we're not going to shoot, you shoot.' They wanted to embarrass me. The pressure was on. So I shot, and I shot a banded duck and they were surprised as I was," Clinton said drawing laughter from the crowd.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/clintons-hunting-history/
Q: Do you support the DC handgun ban?
A: I want to give local communities the authority over determining how to keep their citizens safe. This case youre referring to is before the Supreme Court.
Q: But what do you support?
A: I support sensible regulation that is consistent with the constitutional right to own and bear arms.
Q: Is the DC ban consistent with that right?
A: I think a total ban, with no exceptions under any circumstances, might be found by the court not to be. But DC or anybody else [should be able to] come up with sensible regulations to protect their people.
Q: But do you still favor licensing and registration of handguns?
A: What I favor is what works in NY. We have one set of rules in NYC and a totally different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in NYC is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the federal government to be having any kind of blanket rules that theyre going to try to impose, I think doesnt make sense.
Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary , Apr 16, 2008
http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Gun_Control.htm
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You guys were all ready for a coronation, then along came the Jewish socialist upstart from New England.
What a shock that must have been.
Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #6)
Post removed
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The coronation was interrupted by a revolution, you're going to have to work for those votes after all.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Just as a lot of them are Catholics, Jews, women, men, vegetarians, Buddhists. Hell, there are even some very rich capitalists...like Hillary.
Newkularblue
(130 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)And he remains so today. He voted FOR every measure in Obama's gun control package after Sandy Hook.
All you guys have is single decades old votes to cling to.
uponit7771
(90,225 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)XRubicon
(2,212 posts)There are people dead that shouldn't be because of it.
Bernie is with the NRA.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Trajan
(19,089 posts)Now you can be gone ...
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Anyone who actually cares about gun control would attack Republicans who are the real threat, not a Democratic candidate who has always supported gun control.
They would be aware of his record and realize that lying about him being a "gun humper" who "is with the NRA" would make it obvious to anyone paying attention that this isn't about gun control at all.
Especially if they went on to attack him for being a "socialist" and not a real "Democrat" when called on their bullshit.
If they really cared about the issue.
Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #17)
Post removed
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Oh, wait, it's because Bernie's a "socialist" and an "Independent" and not a real "Democrat", right?
Thank DOG someone here knows who the REAL enemy is.
Another victim of Bernie Derangement Syndrome.
Sad.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)How about Smith and Wesson?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)XRubicon
(2,212 posts)I know I left myself open to a good come back- but what???
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And it's not like this was in any way original.
You guys should really get a new shtick.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)Edit to add:
Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat
Bernie Sanders supports the NRA agenda
Look for yourself at his past.
Lancero
(2,983 posts)And the present?
Past election, she was shouting to the heavens about how her daddy taught her how to shoot guns, and that Obama was doing to be a gun grabber.
Present election, a NRA lobbiest is doing fundraisers for her.
Unless, of course, you think it's great that her past campaign attacked someone over daring to talk about gun control, and that it's just awesome that her present campaign has financial ties to the NRA.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Senator McCarthy called, he wants his list back.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)What Barack Obama said bears repeating
jpb33
(141 posts)and an NRA lobbyist held a fundraiser for Hillary Clinton.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/3/1/1494045/-NRA-Lobbyist-To-Host-Hillary-Fundraiser
Lancero
(2,983 posts)Some people are perfectly fine with the NRA supporting Hillary - The NRA is only considered devisive when they dare to support any other candidate.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)Lancero
(2,983 posts)On Fri Mar 25, 2016, 07:59 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
I live in Florida.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1576572
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
He ends with "Fuck Bernie"
If this isn't 7-0 we have lost control here
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beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)SheenaR
(2,052 posts)On a roll tonight