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Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 10:18 AM Mar 2016

As a Sanders supporter, I would be fine with doing away with caucuses as long as....

...we developed a rational nomination system based on science and ethics.

What I mean by that is to try to simulate the real voting experience that would occur during the GE and so forth.

1.) If you are going to start with select states, start with the projected "battleground" tossup states that will likely be swing states in November.
2.) All states should allow "open" voting to Independents as we need Independents.
3.) Identify states with problems with voter suppression, target those states early and work on removing barriers to voting by November.
4.) No more Super PAC's and other vehicles that create distrust and corrupt the system.
5.) No more dirty misleading style of campaigning (have some standards and rating system for honesty and trustworthyness).
6.) Create some sort of party non-wavering "constitution" that we adhere to so our candidates have some basement floor of expectations, no more toppling countries around the world for the sake of Israel for instance, no more wars for oil, no more wavering on a right to choose. Be a Party that the country believes it means what is says.
7.) Vote in large waves so that we can road test candidates who can run effective large campaigns.
8.) Have our own internal rules for campaign finance reform, be the party that actually has a moral and ethical code, level the playing field for candidates that aren't the "chosen favorites" by the moneyed elite.
9.) Try to be a big-tent inclusive party that focuses on "a rising tide lifts all boats" rather than triangulating and dividing the population...and...
10.) Get rid of delegates and super delegates. Just go with the popular vote. Let's actually be fully democratic.

and on and on.

Right now, what we have is an ad hoc mess where some are saying white states don't matter, another portion is saying black states don't matter, early decisive voting goes to states we don't have a chance of winning, we have no core set of standards for personal or political behavior (so now we are arguing the merits of elective wars, whether shipping jobs overseas is a good thing, and behavior doesn't matter as "long as we win&quot , crazy caucuses, widespread distrust of possible voter fraud, a likely nominee most of the country doesn't trust and a good portion of the left sided electorate wants to make them vomit in their mouth a little bit, and a string of really good candidates that can't get past 3% to 6% (except for Bernie).

===

The above list are just things I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure a better more precise list could be created but the points are these

1.) Make a system that makes more sense and actually road tests our candidates in a way that is relevant to the general election.
2.) Make a system that is more fair and less corruptible.
3.) Be the party that is more democratic and more trustworthy by creating systems that promote trustworthyness and a code of ethical personal and political behavior.
4.) Diminish the power of special interests and special groups that have an outsized influence on the party.
5.) Create a more fair voting and money raising system for candidates.

===

P.S. I am aware that one counter-argument would be that we can't "hamstring" ourselves by limiting fund raising. My counter argument is a.) Bernie Sanders has raised phenomenal amounts of money in a relatively clean way and b.) the benefits of being perceived as the "clean" Party that people can trust will far outweigh whatever commercials "dirty money" can buy.

I also think many of the things I suggest above, such as early voting in large battleground states would actually have benefited Hillary Clinton. I am willing to accept that, even as a Sanders supporter.

But if her candidacy was part of a system that adhered to the other features I mentioned above, I would have a lot less problem with voting for her in the general election and I would wager a lot of other people would too. For instance, her foreign policy doctrine seems to be "whatever is good for Israel" which I don't think should be part of a Democratic Party constitution. Thus, if we had a constitution that spelled out our criteria for foreign intervention, and she had to adhere to that, then it would force candidates to adhere to what we really want of them.

How to create and ratify such a constitution? I don't know for sure but my thought would be by referendum.

1.) Choice?
2.) Criteria for military intervention?
3.) Immigration policy?
4.) Education policy?
5.) A public option?


I guess we create ALREADY "platform planks" or whatever, but it seems to me those are some pretty blurry lines when our likely standard bearer is literally saying "topple foreign governments for the sake of Israel" and 60% of the party doesn't bat an eye. I also don't know who gets to vote on what constitutes a plank.

I also think we create the "platform" after we nominate the candidates...so personality, special groups, and big money gets a say first and then principles follow later. This is ass backwards and honestly, anti-American. As the world's oldest constitutional democracy, it's the idea that principles come first and people must adhere to a set of beliefs that are set with some moral, rational, and ethical code.

A referendum by popular vote every 4 years could clear that up.

Well anyway, that's all I want to say.

This isn't and indictment of either side right now but rather and observation of what a mess our primary system, and hence the Democratic Party has become.

I say this on the day after Bernie has done quite well in caucus states, so there's no sour grapes here. I also saying this knowing a lot of what I suggested would benefit Clinton.

I just want some justice and some ethics.

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itsrobert

(14,157 posts)
1. Aren't we more likely get a candidate that is only slightly left or conservative Democrat
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 10:26 AM
Mar 2016

if we start with swing states? And especially if you allow open primaries?

Wouldn't the candidates have to appeal to that element that makes those states swing states? conservative democrats and independents? Many independents are liberal in most ways, but what keeps them independent they are one issue voters. Either pro-life or pro-gun.

Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
2. That's where the "constitution" or whatever you want to call it would come into play.
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 10:36 AM
Mar 2016

We would have a set of bedrock values that are established by referendum and thus anyone running on the Democratic Ticket has to adhere to those principles.

Right now we have candidates that run a primary to the left then totally switch toward the right after the nomination. This happens up and down the ticket. That's why we get Democrats to allow an asshole like George W Bush a.) win and b.) once elected, support him starting a war for oil.

Right now, we have candidates we can't even trust... out loud they say they are against TPP but secretly they tell their donors "fuggetaboutit" and so on, just wait till a year from now when we are discussing something that is eerily similar to the TPP, if not in name.

And yes, we do need a Presidential candidate that can play well in the big states that win the election. However, when it's set in the context of other things I mentioned, it hopefully could be someone we can trust to have our backs.

Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
4. Another point is that by switching to true popular vote system... the effect of early states
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 10:39 AM
Mar 2016

and the wackyness that "delegate math" creates would be mitigated. Everyone still gets a say. Yes, the battleground states get to go first, but they aren't the final word.

 

GeorgiaPeanuts

(2,353 posts)
3. It feels like Caucuses have pros and cons...
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 10:38 AM
Mar 2016

On the one hand they take a lot of time though it is debatable if it takes longer to caucus than it did to try and vote in Arizona's primary.

But on the bright side it is very hard to cheat in a caucus because you have lots of eyes watching everything going down.

Bread and Circus

(9,454 posts)
5. hard to cheat in a caucus <<< that's one thing I really like. Definitely want to mitigate fraud
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 10:40 AM
Mar 2016

in vote counting.

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
6. I don't really have a strong opinion either way.
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 11:00 AM
Mar 2016

First, I've never lived in a caucus state, never participated in a caucus, and don't feel like I've got the experience needed to judge.

Second, I'm all for allowing the people in a state to decide how they want their democratic process to work, as long as it DOES work.

Also, I'm kind of fascinated by the whole process, which seems engaging and energetic, at least for those who show up. I'd rather just mark my ballot privately, but the whole debate process seems healthy.

Voting or caucusing...I want every citizen to be able to participate without long lines, without having to take time off work, without stress from overburdening their schedule of responsibilities, or travel stress, or any other kind of stress.

4139

(1,893 posts)
7. Only Democrats should vote for the Democratic Party nominee...
Sun Mar 27, 2016, 11:52 AM
Mar 2016

Some states already have early and absentee voting for caucuses.... That's is the way to go.

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