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which candidate is better on freedom? (Original Post) reddread Mar 2016 OP
William wallace n/t wilt the stilt Mar 2016 #1
Corporate freedom: Hillary. Capital freedom: Hillary. Wealth freedom: Hillary. BillZBubb Mar 2016 #2
true, true. reddread Mar 2016 #4
bernie since he voted against the patriot act questionseverything Mar 2016 #3
that clinches it for me dana_b Mar 2016 #55
to bear arms? Sanders. for reproductive freedom? Hillary. NSA spying: Bernie. bettyellen Mar 2016 #5
Except Hillary would support further abortion restrictions, Bernie won't, he's better on the issue. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #7
that was a tactical answer to a hypothetical. you know that totally unrestricted abortion is a bettyellen Mar 2016 #8
Except it's not the first time she said that, she does support restrictions. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #9
" as the health and life of the mother is protected" which is why Naral and PP support her. bettyellen Mar 2016 #11
Bernie always supported choice, he never once wavered or caved in like she did. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #12
In principal, he does- which is why he can say "no compromise". But the rights ARE compromised bettyellen Mar 2016 #13
No, not just in principle - votes matter and his record on reproductive rights is impeccable. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #14
What has he done? Seriously? It has been off his plate, and like a lot of wedge issues..... bettyellen Mar 2016 #15
What has she done besides give speeches and say she'll compromise on abortion rights? beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #16
She has blocked the FDA head who was not going to approve Plan B, has created or co- bettyellen Mar 2016 #17
So nothing more than what Bernie has done when it comes to votes and cosponsoring legislation? beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #18
A hell of a lot more than Bernie ever did. Has he co-sponsored anything? Created any legislation? bettyellen Mar 2016 #19
Didn't even click on the link, did you? Why am I not surprised? beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #20
Nope, she has worked very hard to craft and pass legislation. He sat on the sidelines and bettyellen Mar 2016 #22
Nope, she's done nothing more than he has and she wants to restrict our rights. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #23
He has crafted eight pieces of legislation promoting women's health? Didn't see that on his bettyellen Mar 2016 #25
Will you quit using strawman arguments? Stop insulting my intelligence. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #26
no legislation crafted vs 8-9 for Hillary. a unicorn proposal for unlimited abortion to 9 months.. bettyellen Mar 2016 #29
"a unicorn proposal for unlimited abortion to 9 months.." Citation please. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #30
No legislation? Is that a fact, bettyellen? beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #32
^^^ this ^^^ malokvale77 Mar 2016 #33
Since she fiercely opposed marriage equality until 2013 I don't trust her. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #35
Those outright lying attacks... malokvale77 Mar 2016 #36
No you're not the only one. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #37
Evil dressed up... malokvale77 Mar 2016 #38
LOL @ evil. Pssst, House of Cards is fiction. bettyellen Mar 2016 #39
Hah malokvale77 Mar 2016 #41
because you believe the average political is "evil", and likely could not name 5-6 of them who bettyellen Mar 2016 #42
You don't know a thing about me. malokvale77 Mar 2016 #48
I'm not one with black and white, good and evil thinking. Must be disappointed in Warren? bettyellen Mar 2016 #51
Wow... malokvale77 Mar 2016 #57
Wow... malokvale77 Mar 2016 #21
You think he will introduce legislation to have no limits at all on abortion and it will pass? bettyellen Mar 2016 #24
Straw. Man. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #27
That is the ONLY promise he has made, that is "better" than Hillary. And it is a non-starter in bettyellen Mar 2016 #28
Citation please. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #31
"Surveys show that the most common reasons given for getting an abortion are financial." bettyellen Mar 2016 #53
Citation please. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #56
Here's your problem... malokvale77 Mar 2016 #34
says the person who tosses out words like "evil". bettyellen Mar 2016 #40
Sorry... malokvale77 Mar 2016 #43
repeating stuff mindlessly? explains much, thanks! bettyellen Mar 2016 #44
Again... malokvale77 Mar 2016 #52
Still waiting for that link to Bernie's proposal for "unlimited abortion up to 9 months". beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #45
I can't find the post, but a here supporter assured me he did! Did they lie? bettyellen Mar 2016 #46
Nice dodge but you made the claim now back it up. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #47
No ban if the life and health of the woman's life is a consideration. Does Bernie have no limits? bettyellen Mar 2016 #49
You tell me, it's your claim. She obviously doesn't trust women like he does. beam me up scottie Mar 2016 #50
depends ibegurpard Mar 2016 #6
Im not sure there are two kinds anymore reddread Mar 2016 #10
Hillary's for the Patriot Act; Sanders is against it. That says a lot about who's better on freedom Vote2016 Mar 2016 #54

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
7. Except Hillary would support further abortion restrictions, Bernie won't, he's better on the issue.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 06:59 PM
Mar 2016

Bernie always supported gun control and both support the rtkba so it's a tie.

Bernie opposes more spying on citizens, he's better on the issue.

Bernie wins!

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
8. that was a tactical answer to a hypothetical. you know that totally unrestricted abortion is a
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:06 PM
Mar 2016

complete non-starter and always has been, right? and that no one is actually going to pass this constitutional amendment?
Hopefully you have some context here. I'm not sure Bernie does, haven;t heard more than a sound bite out of him on this.

Wasn't Bernie against background checks? Where was he on the gun show loophole?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
9. Except it's not the first time she said that, she does support restrictions.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:13 PM
Mar 2016

She even used right wing terminology calling late term abortions "partial birth abortions":

Q: Are there circumstances when the government should limit choice?

LAZIO: I had a pro-choice record in the House, and I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I support a ban on partial-birth abortions. Senator Moynihan called it “infanticide.” Even former mayor Ed Koch agreed that this was too extreme a procedure. This is an area where I disagree with my opponent. My opponent opposes a ban on partial-birth abortions.

CLINTON: My opponent is wrong. I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected. I’ve met women who faced this heart-wrenching decision toward the end of a pregnancy. Of course it’s a horrible procedure. No one would argue with that. But if your life is at stake, if your health is at stake, if the potential for having any more children is at stake, this must be a woman’s choice.

Source: Senate debate in Manhattan , Oct 8, 2000

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Abortion.htm


And again just last year:



Abortion should NEVER be put on the table.


Wasn't Bernie against background checks? Where was he on the gun show loophole?


You said the freedom to "bear arms" and Hillary supports that, always has:

Let states & cities determine local gun laws

Q: Do you support the DC handgun ban?

A: I want to give local communities the authority over determining how to keep their citizens safe. This case you’re referring to is before the Supreme Court.

Q: But what do you support?

A: I support sensible regulation that is consistent with the constitutional right to own and bear arms.

Q: Is the DC ban consistent with that right?

A: I think a total ban, with no exceptions under any circumstances, might be found by the court not to be. But DC or anybody else come up with sensible regulations to protect their people.

Q: But do you still favor licensing and registration of handguns?

A: What I favor is what works in NY. We have one set of rules in NYC and a totally different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in NYC is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the federal government to be having any kind of blanket rules that they’re going to try to impose, I think doesn’t make sense.

Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary , Apr 16, 2008

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Gun_Control.htm
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
11. " as the health and life of the mother is protected" which is why Naral and PP support her.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:25 PM
Mar 2016

Bernie shies away from specifics on this. Which makes his life oh so easy.

Background checks don't matter? Seriously?

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
12. Bernie always supported choice, he never once wavered or caved in like she did.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:34 PM
Mar 2016

Seems to me she's the one who took the easy route by capitulating instead of saying hell no, I won't compromise on abortion!


Background checks don't matter? Seriously?


Strawman: I never said background checks don't matter

Red herring: you asserted that he was better on the freedom to "bear arms", since both support the 2nd amendment background checks have nothing to with the issue.
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
13. In principal, he does- which is why he can say "no compromise". But the rights ARE compromised
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:37 PM
Mar 2016

if he wants full unfettered access- why wouldn't he push for it? He has done nothing but deliver an unrealistic sound bite. In million years he would never push for wider access to abortion than what exists now. He hasn't and he won't.

And he criticized Planned Parenthood- a very important institution that has been under attack- over an endorsement. Petty, and useless.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
14. No, not just in principle - votes matter and his record on reproductive rights is impeccable.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:39 PM
Mar 2016

She's the one who's waffling, don't try to make this into another artful smear.

Hillary said she would compromise on abortion, that makes him better when it comes to reproductive freedom.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
15. What has he done? Seriously? It has been off his plate, and like a lot of wedge issues.....
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:41 PM
Mar 2016

he has benefitted greatly from staying out of the fray. It is what it is.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
16. What has she done besides give speeches and say she'll compromise on abortion rights?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:43 PM
Mar 2016

Bernie's record is easy to look up, try to find one instance of him caving in to the rabid right wing like she did:

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Abortion.htm

She said she would support more restrictions, he didn't.

Game over, he's better on reproductive rights, period.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
17. She has blocked the FDA head who was not going to approve Plan B, has created or co-
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:52 PM
Mar 2016

sponsored something like 8-9 pieces of legislation to expand access to care and contraception. She has fought for funding and new programs to expand access. All of these things Bernie voted for- but she did all the work. She has also been at the fore front of supporting women's access to contraception, pre-natal care as well as expanded opportunities abroad.

How do you not know any of that? She actually kicks his ass here, Scotty.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
18. So nothing more than what Bernie has done when it comes to votes and cosponsoring legislation?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 07:55 PM
Mar 2016

And she still wants to further restrict access to abortion, so thanks for proving he's better on this issue!


 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
19. A hell of a lot more than Bernie ever did. Has he co-sponsored anything? Created any legislation?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:00 PM
Mar 2016

And he is gullible enough to say complete free access to abortion to nine months?
No one believes that will ever get passed. Which is why he talks so rarely about it- that was a huge gaffe, born of his inexperience in the fight for reproductive rights.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
20. Didn't even click on the link, did you? Why am I not surprised?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:03 PM
Mar 2016
And he is gullible enough to say complete free access to abortion to nine months?
No one believes that will ever get passed. Which is why he talks so rarely about it- that was a huge gaffe, born of his inexperience in the fight for reproductive rights.




Look you brought up the issue and the fact is his record is every bit as good as hers and he WON'T agree to restrict abortion, that makes him better on the issue.

Next time do some research before you make a claim like that.
 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
22. Nope, she has worked very hard to craft and pass legislation. He sat on the sidelines and
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:14 PM
Mar 2016

said me too. And has suggested no limits to abortion, which everyone knows will NEVER pass this century. He may as well promise us all a million dollars. It is irresponsible- and the easy way out.

Hillary got their support because she does the work on this issue. Sticks her neck out.
Bernie tags along quietly, hoping only women will notice.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
23. Nope, she's done nothing more than he has and she wants to restrict our rights.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:15 PM
Mar 2016

You both keep hoping women won't notice.

But we have, and millions of millenial women so as well, they see right through her.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
25. He has crafted eight pieces of legislation promoting women's health? Didn't see that on his
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:19 PM
Mar 2016

web site. Like it or not- he cannot get full unfettered access to abortion passed. Only an idiot would believe that bullshit.
It is just words for suckers and this who pretend to care. He will leave it to others to fight.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
29. no legislation crafted vs 8-9 for Hillary. a unicorn proposal for unlimited abortion to 9 months..
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:25 PM
Mar 2016

paid for by the govt, no questions asked. Not going to happen- especially since he is not actually arguing for it this campaign season. God forbid if he is in the general, between that and taxes, he is fucked.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
32. No legislation? Is that a fact, bettyellen?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:31 PM
Mar 2016
Ban anti-abortion limitations on abortion services.

Sanders co-sponsored Women's Health Protection Act
Congressional summary:: Women's Health Protection Act: makes the following limitations concerning abortion services unlawful and prohibits their imposition or application by any government:

a requirement that a medical professional perform specific tests, unless generally required in the case of medically comparable procedures;

a limitation on an abortion provider's ability to delegate tasks;

a limitation on an abortion provider's ability to prescribe or dispense drugs based on her or his good-faith medical judgment;

a requirement or limitation concerning the physical plant, equipment, staffing, or hospital transfer arrangements;

a requirement that, prior to obtaining an abortion, a woman make medically unnecessary visits to the provider of abortion services or to any individual or entity that does not provide such services;

a prohibition or ban prior to fetal viability

Opponent's argument against (Live Action News):

This is Roe v. Wade on steroids. The bill is problematic from the very beginning. Its first finding addresses "women's ability to participate equally"; many have rejected this claim that women need abortion in order to be equal to men, or that they need to be like men at all.

The sponsors of this pro-abortion bill also seem to feel that pro-life bills have had their time in this country, and that we must now turn back to abortion. The bill also demonstrates that its proponents have likely not even bothered attempting to understand the laws they are seeking to undo, considering that such laws are in place to regulate abortion in order to make it safer. Those who feel that abortion is best left up for the states to decide will also find this bill problematic with its overreach.

Sadly, the bill also uses the Fourteenth Amendment to justify abortion, as the Supreme Court did, even though in actuality it would make much more sense to protect the lives of unborn Americans.

Source: H.R.3471 & S.1696 14-S1696 on Nov 13, 2013

Access safe, legal abortion without restrictions.

Sanders co-sponsored S.217 & H.R.448

Congressional Summary: Congress finds the following:

Access to safe, legal abortion services has been hindered in various ways, including blockades of health care facilities; restrictions on insurance coverage; restrictions on minors' ability to obtain services; and requirements that single out abortion providers.

These restrictions harm women's health by reducing access to the other essential health care services offered by the providers targeted by the restrictions, including contraceptive services.

The cumulative effect of these numerous restrictions has been that a woman's ability to exercise her constitutional rights is dependent on the State in which she lives.

It is the purpose of this Act to protect women's health by ensuring that abortion services will continue to be available and that abortion providers are not singled out for medically unwarranted restrictions

Opponents reasons for voting NAY National Review, July 17, 2014): During hearings on S. 1696, Senators heard many myths from abortion proponents about the "need" for the bill's evisceration of all life-affirming legislation.

Myth: Life-affirming laws are enacted "under the false pretext of health and safety."

Fact: Induced abortion is associated with significant risks and potential harms to women.

Myth: "Where abortion services are restricted and unavailable, abortions still occur and are mostly unsafe."

Fact: Where abortion is restricted, maternal mortality rates have decreased.

Myth: Admitting privileges laws are "not medically justified."

Fact: Women with abortion complications are told to go to an emergency department. This would constitute malpractice in any other scenario.

Myth: Ultrasounds and their descriptions are "cruel and inhumane."

Fact: Allowing women the opportunity to view their ultrasounds serves an important role in providing informed consent, enabling women to exercise true choice.

Source: Women's Health Protection Act 15_S217 on Jan 21, 2015

Protect the reproductive rights of women.

Sanders co-sponsored protecting the reproductive rights of women

Provides that a State may not restrict the right of a woman to choose to terminate a pregnancy:
before fetal viability; or
at any time, if such termination is necessary to protect the life or health of the woman.

Allows a State to impose requirements medically necessary to protect the life or health of such women.
Declares that this Act shall not be construed to prevent a State from:

requiring minors to involve responsible adults before terminating a pregnancy; and
protecting individuals from having to participate in abortions to which they are conscientiously opposed.

Source: Freedom of Choice Act (H.R.25) 1993-H25 on Jan 5, 1993

Ensure access to and funding for contraception.

Sanders co-sponsored ensuring access to and funding for contraception

A bill to expand access to preventive health care services that help reduce unintended pregnancy, reduce abortions, and improve access to women's health care. The Congress finds as follows:

Healthy People 2010 sets forth a reduction of unintended pregnancies as an important health objective to achieve over the first decade of the new century.

Although the CDC included family planning in its published list of the Ten Great Public Health Achievements in the 20th Century, the US still has one of the highest rates of unintended pregnancies among industrialized nations.

Each year, 3,000,000 pregnancies, nearly half of all pregnancies, in the US are unintended, and nearly half of unintended pregnancies end in abortion.

In 2004, 34,400,000 women, half of all women of reproductive age, were in need of contraceptive services, and nearly half of those were in need of public support for such care.

The US has the highest rate of infection with sexually transmitted diseases of any industrialized country. 19 million cases impose a tremendous economic burden, as high as $14 billion per year.

Increasing access to family planning services will improve women's health and reduce the rates of unintended pregnancy, abortion, and infection with sexually transmitted diseases. Contraceptive use saves public health dollars. For every dollar spent to increase funding for family planning programs, $3.80 is saved.

Contraception is basic health care that improves the health of women and children by enabling women to plan and space births.

Women experiencing unintended pregnancy are at greater risk for physical abuse and women having closely spaced births are at greater risk of maternal death.

A child born from an unintended pregnancy is at greater risk of low birth weight, dying in the first year of life, being abused, and not receiving sufficient resources for healthy development.

Source: Prevention First Act (S.21/H.R.819) 2007-HR819 on Feb 5, 2007

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Abortion.htm

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
33. ^^^ this ^^^
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:46 PM
Mar 2016

I'm sick to death of the spinning going on in this primary. The smearing of the most honest politician in modern history is beyond disgusting.

If they think this is winning, they are wrong. I know too many life long Democrats that are willing to burn it down rather than let them continue down this path.

How long will it be before she is willing to limit LGBT rights?

How long before she is willing to pronounce super predators and the need to bring them to heel again.

How long before she is willing to, etc, etc. I have a list a mile long.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
35. Since she fiercely opposed marriage equality until 2013 I don't trust her.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:50 PM
Mar 2016

And her racist 2008 campaign made me wonder just how evolved she is on that issue as well.

Yet her supporters think they can attack Bernie on all of those issues with impunity.

Pathetic.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
36. Those outright lying attacks...
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:17 PM
Mar 2016

have made it impossible for me to ever cast a vote for her. I'm not the only one that thinks this way.

She gave her blessing to all the poo flinging when she hired John Podesta and David Brock.

I no longer have any sympathy for her. I consider her to be one of the worst people in the world. She and she alone is responsible for that.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
37. No you're not the only one.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:20 PM
Mar 2016

She is running the same kind of dirty campaign she did in 2008, there is nothing they won't say or do to win.

One of the best things about being a Bernie supporter is knowing he takes the high road and even if he loses we'll be able to hold our heads up.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
42. because you believe the average political is "evil", and likely could not name 5-6 of them who
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:32 PM
Mar 2016

you think are good enough for any high office. Did you throw Warren under the bus, or are you one of the rare ones who like a total of two politicians in the USA?

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
51. I'm not one with black and white, good and evil thinking. Must be disappointed in Warren?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:47 PM
Mar 2016

How can she not defend us from the great evil?!? LOL.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
57. Wow...
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:12 PM
Mar 2016

you seem to have an obsession with Warren.

I never mentioned her, but you have brought her up twice.

Here's a clue - She's not running for President. This OP is about Clinton vs Sanders in the Democratic Presidential primary.

For your further pleasure - If I lived in Massachusetts, I would vote for Elizabeth Warren for Senator.

In the things that matter to me, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are right on the issues.

You however = no clue.

malokvale77

(4,879 posts)
21. Wow...
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:12 PM
Mar 2016

Bernie thinks it's a women's choice period. Hillary wants limits according to "her" beliefs.

I'll take Bernie any day of the week. So will my daughter and so will my granddaughter.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
24. You think he will introduce legislation to have no limits at all on abortion and it will pass?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:16 PM
Mar 2016

As far as I have seen, he has said very little. And worked for us much less. Seems unaware that unrestricted acess would never pass. But he never talks about it, so I doubt he will do a damned thing.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
28. That is the ONLY promise he has made, that is "better" than Hillary. And it is a non-starter in
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:23 PM
Mar 2016

this decade in America. Not really difficult to understand how unimpressive that is.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
53. "Surveys show that the most common reasons given for getting an abortion are financial."
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:53 PM
Mar 2016

Gotta love him for sticking to his story.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
46. I can't find the post, but a here supporter assured me he did! Did they lie?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:39 PM
Mar 2016

meanwhile your link shows he supported all the legislation (including limits) that Hillary herself sponsored. So nice of him to support her/ ride her coat tails.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
47. Nice dodge but you made the claim now back it up.
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:42 PM
Mar 2016

And Bernie was fighting for my reproductive rights long before Hillary said she supported a ban on late term abortions in 2002.

Keep digging.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
49. No ban if the life and health of the woman's life is a consideration. Does Bernie have no limits?
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:45 PM
Mar 2016

Please explain? He has not been too vocal or crystal clear on this issue- thanks!

 

Vote2016

(1,198 posts)
54. Hillary's for the Patriot Act; Sanders is against it. That says a lot about who's better on freedom
Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:54 PM
Mar 2016
Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»which candidate is better...