Sometimes I feel all alone

[Onlooker]

So many of the people in this forum are gung ho for Hillary or wild about Bernie. It seems like you have to love one or the other. You can't like one a little better than the other, and if you dare defend one against the other than you're a traitor to someone, more often a Bernie supporter.

I grew up in the 1960s, a boy who saw first-hand police and right wing thugs beat up anti-Vietnam protesters, including my father; who moved from an all-black area of the Bronx to a suburb where my family was ostracized because we were Jewish, anti-war, and had black friends; who suffered through that time as a closeted gay, so closeted that every Sunday I would eagerly open the New York Times Review of Books for The Advocate's full page ad that said, "It's okay to be gay." It meant so much to me, even though I did not know why!

I saw the rise of the generation gap, pitting my FDR-liberal parents who met at a Communist dance against my more socialist older siblings who were active in groups like SDS and Progressive Labor, and read Marx and Mao. I was young, so was witness to the sexism and homophobia of the left, the way they would use their strong masculine voices to drown out women and rarely gave women leadership roles and the way the Black Panthers and others demeaned gays. I remember the communist press citing homosexuality as proof of capitalist decadence, and the rise of women and gays being met by barrages of insults sometimes yelled by strangers on the street.

I grew to hate ideology at the time. The generation gap was about two left ideologies at war. But, it was followed by a more druggie, free love, freedom loving liberalism where everyone was accepted. It was by no means perfect, but it was less shrill and frenetic, less mean-spirited, and less marginalizing. It helped give rise to the woman's movement, which was not really born out of the left, but despite the left. It helped give rise to the modern gay rights movement, which again was not born out of the left. The left was dogmatic. It talked a good line, and though many lefties were involved in gay rights and women's rights, those lefties were mostly gays and women. The straight male left did not play much of a role at all in rise of women and gays until those groups had political power.

So, when I look at this campaign, I see Bernie Sanders (and Ted Cruz) as throwbacks to an ideological age, where you were either with me or against me. If you were not part of the struggle of the movement, its members had little regard for you. I see some of that in the Bernie campaign. If economic justice is not your bottom line, then you are not terribly welcome unless you tow the line.

On the other hand, we have the nondogmatic candidate Hillary Clinton who, like Donald Trump, has views that are fundamentally kitsch. They both reflect the mood of the country at any given moment, Hillary reflecting the mood to the left of center and Trump the mood to the right of center. (The fact that Trump is fascistic is a separate matter.) Hillary thus is very inclusive. You don't have to agree with Hillary to support her or to be welcomed. It is different with the Bernie campaign.

So, in the end, I am someone who doesn't like the Bernie campaign because it's a my-way-or-the-highway campaign and who likes Hillary's campaign because it really welcomes everyone. I'm for Bernie by a millimeter because I do like his way, and given my upbringing (and my years of living in Scandinavia as an youngish adult), I lean towards leftist economic solutions.

But, I really dislike the way Bernie supporters insist that if you don't agree with Bernie 100% and don't agree that everything he's ever done is absolutely right, you are not welcome. If you have something nice to say about Hillary you are not welcome. I don't like that kind of dogmatism. Bernie does not walk on water, and his ideas are not 100% correct. They may be better than Hillary's, but at least Hillary is not so rigid. She will change, Bernie won't. In this forum, I speak out against his rigidity and the frightening way people worship him.

I don't know if there are others in this forum who share my point of view; in fact, I tend to think not, and that's why I've decided to post this.

[FSogol]

1. You're not the only one. n/t

[AlbertCat]

49. Comedy gold!

"I feel all alone"
"You're not the only one."



That's hysterical!
You guys are great!

[yawnmaster]

55. You do realize that many people feel alone. Having a feeling of loneliness in common with others...

does not make one any less lonely.

You do understand why your joke doesn't make sense, yes?

[AlbertCat]

97. You do realize that many people feel alone.

Oh yes.

But ALL alone implies....ALL alone.

[yawnmaster]

98. you need to understand feelings of isolation. that would be ALL alone. eom

[CorporatistNation]

66. Looks Like A Dvid Brock Piece To Me... These People Will Try ANYTHING!

!

[winetourdriver]

2. not alone

You bet your ass I agree with you.

[luxpara4]

4. Listen to the candidates, not their supporters

Look at their past actions...

[beam me up scottie]

5. Oh please, for starters look at your transparency page.

And then we'll move on to your faux support for Bernie while constantly tearing him down and smearing his record. Then we'll talk about how you berate his supporters and sneer at them when they object.

I tried to have a discussion with you the other day but all you're interested in is hearing your own talking points.

You posted another offensive hit and run op this morning and refused to answer the people who responded.

If you feel alone it's not everyone else's fault.

[katsy]

15. Really? I wasn't exposed to this poster

and didn't chk transparency page but I've read your stuff forever.

I feel stupid. I'm going to delete my post in reply to him.

[cogswell]

17. What is a transparency page?

[katsy]

23. Select du'ers name

Then select "transparency".

It gives you their previous ops.

[renate]

64. I feel as though I'm on the brink of finding out about something I've wondered for years

... but I think I did it wrong. Typical of me with anything involving a computer.

Is the transparency page only about posts that have been hidden? That's how it seemed to me when I tried it, but again... I'm sure I'm wrong.

I've always wondered how to find a chronological list of someone's ordinary posts--for example, I was worried about somebody here, and couldn't figure out how to find their last few posts. Using the search box has never worked for me--I get a Google list of their posts, but they're in random order, and they're in Google's format, not DU's. Is there a trick I don't know?

If you don't know either, thank you for the tidbit about the transparency page. I had no idea that existed.

[katsy]

67. That's the 1st time I saw it.

Now I understand

[beam me up scottie]

20. Here's a glimpse of some of his ops:

Sanders wins the diversity contest -- Asians support him!

How will Bernie represent young straight white men of Christian heritage?

Wait until the Republicans go after Bernie

Castro economics, Paul foreign policy, Wallace race issues

The constant insulting of Obama by Bernie supporters

Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster

Why are Bernie supporters lying about his ghetto remark?

Clinton and Sanders laud Nancy Reagan

The Clintons and gay rights

So Bernie supports the Stealth bomber, is an admirer of Fidel Castro, and protected the Minutemen?

As a white guy, I'd like to tell black people why they should support Bernie Sanders

The Trump wing of the Sanders campaign is harmful

[katsy]

22. Thx. I need pay attention

[beam me up scottie]

24. I remember people who play both sides against each other.

[Onlooker]

28. If you had read what I wrote, my transparency page would make sense ...

... but you are exactly the kind of narrow-minded person I am referring to, the kind of my way or the high way believer who I regularly challenge. You really don't need to respond, since clearly you march in lock step with Bernie.

[beam me up scottie]

30. See that's what I mean, when confronted with your own words and behaviour you blame everyone else.

I read what you wrote and in fact this morning's op is still very fresh in my mind because it offended a gay man and you refused to respond to him.

The other day you sneered at minorities on Twitter who were using the #Berniemademewhite hashtag:

Hashtag is a cute gimmick of Sanders supporters

I bet you wiped tears from your eyes when the little bird landed on Bernie's podium, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1591614

You post offensive crap and then mock or ignore people who object.

[Onlooker]

32. I get pissed off as anyone

When people accuse me of being a bigot, suggest that those who support Hillary are lackies to Wall Street, imply that those who support Hillary are supporting homophobia, etc. The sweeping generalizations annoy me a lot, and I am not always quiet in response.

[beam me up scottie]

37. I get pissed off too but I don't go around insulting minorities.

People judge you by what you write, when you post something offensive don't blame others for being offended.

No one made you lash out at minorities.

[Onlooker]

70. I didn't insult minorities. What is that accusation based on?

My insult of twitter? In fact, I can show you threads here where people have suggested that Hillary's minority support is from low-information voters, and there's been very little response from Sanders supporters. I may have insulted straight white men, for which I was wrong, but I certainly did not insult minorities. If you're thinking of my thread "As a white guy, I'd like to tell black people why they should support Bernie," it was clearly directed at white people who are doing just that and the title was facetious.

[beam me up scottie]

72. See there you go again, instead of admitting you sneered at PoC you point the finger at others.

The minorities who created that hashtag did so because they feel they've been ignored and even erased by the media and Clinton supporters, by dismissing them you proved their point. We're talking about YOUR behaviour here and why people are disgusted by it, saying other people are behaving badly too is not an excuse.

And this was your latest attempt to stir up racial tensions in this forum:

Sanders wins the diversity contest -- Asians support him!

Once again you dismiss and demean minorities who support Bernie.

#Berniemademewhite was aimed at people like you and you either can't or won't see it.

[Onlooker]

73. Actually you're the one marginalizing minorities

I never used Twitter, so never even understood the hashtag or knew it was created by PoC. It was a silly issue that Bernie supporters were posting so much about that I made fun of people elevating to prominence like the stupid bird. Making an analogy to bird I think sort of proves my point.

And in the other thread I was responding to the Bernie supporters who were marginalizing the oppressed by saying, "See Bernie actually wins among people of color." The issue of PoC is about the most oppressed groups. While Asians do face discrimination, which I acknowledged in my post, they are not nearly in the same situation as blacks and Latinos. So, in my opinion, your false equivalencies are marginalizing those who are most oppressed in our country.

But, you can get in the last word. I'm off to work.

[beam me up scottie]

74. By calling you out for playing oppression olympics? Nice try.

You actually came right out and said Asians don't count as real minorities because they're not as oppressed as other PoC. You don't think that's demeaning to them and the unique issues they face? And you used them to take a swipe at Bernie.

You also tried to speak for lgbt people, a member of that community was offended and told you so but you dismissed him as well.

Pitting minorities against each other is nothing new and I'm glad to see others called you on it.

Pretending I'm the only one and am picking on you is just more deflection.

[Lordquinton]

59. I dead what you wrote and your transparency page makes perfect sense.

Some real gems in there.

[Dem2]

79. Trust me

Don't waste your keystrokes.

[Avalon Sparks]

26. Thanks for the reminder...

Good point

[athena]

43. I did.

If you actually bother to read the posts rather than just their titles, you will see that they are consistent with the opening post.

[beam me up scottie]

44. I've read all of them as well as the ops.

There's a reason why they feel alone and it's not everyone else's fault. There's plenty of comradery around this place, all you have to do is be honest and make an effort.

[delrem]

71. Heh, here's another one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511603499#post21

Crudely stamped out from a template - "I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter but ... oooh, those *other* supporters are so... icky!"

How many have there been now? A dozen? All the same.
Strange how there are no "I'm a Hillary Clinton supporter but ... " posters. Very strange, that.
Also very strange that the "I'm a Bernie supporter but..." nonsense exactly coincides with the starting of "Berniebro" memes, trashing his supporters as racist, misogynist, not missing a beat.
It's all a coincidence, I'm sure!

I think I'm going to start a collection!

[bobbobbins01]

6. Us "Idiot Sanders Supporters" don't feel very welcome.

The irony here is giving me a nose bleed.

[beam me up scottie]

8. LOL! You too?

[JesterCS]

85. Agreed. I feel anxious going into GDP being a Sanders supporter n/t

[shadowandblossom]

87. Sorry to hear that

You are welcome here It is pretty rough for us (Clinton supporters) in GD-P too

[JesterCS]

88. Thank you.

I just see so many nasty pro Hillary posters, basically telling us to grow up. I'm 34, and can make decisions based off of what I believe, read, see, etc. I didn't like Mrs Clinton in 08, and still do not. That's why I voted Obama.

[shadowandblossom]

91. sure, it's nothing

and I heard something similar from another older Sander's supporter on here too.

(I'm not a shining example of perfect behavior by the way... But I really do try to keep it civil, because when we don't it just shuts down conversation and makes us dig our heels in. I also don't want to cause the person behind the text trouble, but it's too easy to be coarse online sometimes.) I mean it though, that we are facing a lot of nastiness ourselves. I have the sense that a lot of people have simply retreated from GD-p. I'm new here, but have heard it isn't usually so bad.

[pat_k]

7. Sanders has not promoted rabid anti-Hillary sentiment.

Last edited Tue Mar 29, 2016, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

It's disturbing, but in no way affects my support for Sanders.

I believe we need to work for change from inside system. Challenging the rationalizations our elected officials invoke to justify inaction, certainly. Vowing to opt out if things don't go our way is disturbing because it is the opposite of Sanders' call for people to work for change. Win or lose, to work to revitalize the Democratic Party.

Imagine if we had just 250 citizen lobbyists in each congressional district pestering members of Congress (or staffers) face-to-face, gathering names on petitions, raising money, working on Congressional elections, and so on. That's a mere 0.15% of people who turnout to vote for candidates in the middle or left side of the spectrum. (That's assuming an average district size of 700,000; 75% over 18; 60% voter turnout, and about 50% of those in the middle or left side of the spectrum).

With the support of small contributions, these folks could be paid to work full time on our behalf. We could create a formidable "K street" operation of our own.

Corporate America may have the money, but people on the ground translate to money and power too. I think too many don't believe this right now. It’s time for that to change. Bernie’s campaign has already accomplished amazing things. I embrace those accomplishments. I want to see those victories to feed confidence in our own power to effect change.

One of my fondest wishes is that, whether or not Bernie wins the nomination, people who have been inspired to take action by Bernie's campaign, will be inspired to continue the fight for what he stands for after the campaign is over. And I see plenty of evidence that this is happening. I think it outweighs the "I'm gonna opt out" contingent.

As a wise friend used to say, "We don't need a movement. More of us just need to move."

Ultimately, that’s what it’s all about.

If you share these feelings, then you are far from alone.

[shadowandblossom]

35. To a new generation in politics!

"One of my fondest wishes is that, whether or not Bernie wins the nomination, people who have been inspired to take action by Bernie's campaign, will be inspired to continue the fight for what he stands for after the campaign is over. And I see plenty of evidence that this is happening. I think it outweighs the "I'm gonna opt out" contingent.

As a wise friend used to say, we don't need a movement. More of us just need to move. "


I hope so! My hope is Sanders has the effect of inspiring a new generation of people to go into politics and work to do the best they can. (I'd be devastated if he won it...) But you guys are very motivated If you look at polling we do have a lot of enthusiasm for her contrary to what people are saying, I should take my cues from you guys in being less complacent.

[shadowandblossom]

36. and to bringing in other disenfranchised voters

who have felt like giving up.

[upaloopa]

9. I grew up in the 50's and 60's. I am 4 years younger than Sanders

I can imagine him joining civil rights marches. So did I. I can imagine him joining in campus demonstrations. So did I. I can imagine him in a commune. I lived in one for a summer.

I was drafted and went to Vietnam. Bernie was a conscientious objector.

I think over the years I learned what it takes to make change happen. It isn't going to happen through a revolution.

I out grew blaming the establishment for my life's problems. Bernie not so much.

We are going to get change by working together not by waiting until millions of people rise up.

[auntpurl]

39. Well said. nt

[ljm2002]

68. You say...

...

"I think over the years I learned what it takes to make change happen. It isn't going to happen through a revolution.

I out grew blaming the establishment for my life's problems. Bernie not so much."

Arrogant much?

Bernie Sanders is a US Senator, has been a US Congressman, and was the mayor of a city of 40,000 people or so. He was named one of the top 20 mayors in the US in 1987 by the US News and World Report, after winning his 4th term in office.

Here are a couple of really good articles about his term as mayor of Burlington (both are worth reading in their entirety):

http://www.thenation.com/article/bernies-burlington-city-sustainable-future/

Pomerleau was then—and remains today, at 97—one of Burlington’s richest residents. A longtime Republican, he made his money developing supermarkets, hotels, and shopping centers, and he owns much of Burlington’s commercial real estate. For decades, he has wielded considerable political influence, served as chair of the city’s police commission, and been its most generous philanthropist.

“When [Sanders] first ran for mayor, he was running against guys like me,” Pomerleau recalled in a recent interview.

Pomerleau, who voted against Sanders in 1981, knocked on his door the day after that election. “I said, ‘You’re the mayor, but it’s still my town,’” he recalled.

Pomerleau wasn’t happy when Sanders opposed his waterfront development plan, but he gradually got to know the mayor and came to admire his pragmatism, his bulldog tenacity to get things done, and his support for the local police.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/10/31/socialist-even-conservative-could-love-burlington-mayor-sanders-was-able-out-republican-republicans/SCmh2TLifXxXRPFKC8NMjO/story.html

As Vermont official, Sanders ‘got things done’

“Other people just could not look beyond that socialist shtick of his. I just never took it seriously,” said Bailey, who later became the chairman of the board. “The truth is, he was a very decent mayor. It is a nitty-gritty job of day-by-day executive decisions and he did it well. He got things done.”

As Senator Bernie Sanders’ campaign for the presidency unfurls, there is a surprising truth to be found in his eight-year tenure as mayor of Vermont’s largest city, or the “People’s Republic of Burlington” as it was often called.

Sanders, the unyielding ideologue, who once read Fidel Castro’s biography during a crucial meeting in City Hall, turned out to be a pragmatic and efficient administrator, one so fiscally conservative that some Republicans say he managed to “out-Republican the Republicans.” He just did it his way.

When he was in the House he was known as "the Amendment King", due to his habit of getting policies implemented by adding them as amendments as bills. He was very effective using this tactic.

More recently he worked with John McCain to pass a bill that reformed the VA and expanded health care for veterans.

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/bernie-sanders-john-mccain-va-deal-107491

And here you are telling us all that YOU know what it takes to make change happen, unlike that schmuck Bernie. According to you, all he ever did was "blame the establishment".

Get back to us when you have a list of accomplishing change that is even close to Bernie's. I won't be holding my breath.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. Cool story Bruh.

[HughLefty1]

11. You are voting for the candidate and not their followers

We have to remember we are voting for the candidate and not their followers. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest thru the trees on DU and other political sites. The crazy postings will disappear after election.

[TheDormouse]

18. well said nt

[TheBlackAdder]

12. A little Todd to help you through the day.

.

.

[onehandle]

13. In the end, I like both of them.

But I prefer Hillary, and only she can win the GE.

Period.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. I don't worship Bernie and have differences with him.

I belonged to SDS and other Left wing groups. We marched for civil rights and against a genocidal war waged by "moderates" and "conservatives". I don't recall any instances of homophobia or sexism. Many of those fellow leftists were homosexual and many more were women who spoke out for feminism and homosexuals who spoke out for equal rights.

Was their some homophobia and sexism on the Left. Sure.

But, it was a helluva lot less than you'd find at most Democratic Party functions.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

16. You probably are often alone on this forum. People who took sides came here. For the rest, GD is

Still a thing.

[shadowandblossom]

42. it looks friendlier over there....

Good point, but it could be nicer over here.

[TheDormouse]

19. You know what you're getting with Bernie; do you know with Hillary?

"They may be better than Hillary's, but at least Hillary is not so rigid. She will change, Bernie won't."

[LonePirate]

21. Is there a place for me at your table? I feel the same way.

I voted for Bernie earlier this month but I will vote for Hillary in the GE if she is the nominee. There is no hesitation from me whatsoever.

I do share your general feelings about Bernie's supporters here on DU. While there are many good people who support Bernie, some segments of his supporters - particularly the Bernie or Bust crew and the ones who promote Repub talking points - are exceptionally infuriating.

Regardless of who wins the Dem nomination, primary season cannot end soon enough for me as much of the hate and unpleasantness here on DU will end once we have a nominee.

[Starry Messenger]

25. I sympathize with you.

I also inhabit a small patch of philosophy.

[bettyellen]

27. there are loads of people who like both candidates, and share your feelings. many are staying out

of it, because they can live with either candidate. and it is just not worth it. even people I consider friends here keep making the mistake that I am a Hillary supporter, because I will not join the hate fest. I do not think she is evil. I am happy to vote for who ever already has the mandate because my state is last.
you get a lot of negative attention here if you refuse to demonize Hillary, but I will not do it. they are a fringe group and will have to settle down at DU after the convention when all is settled.

Where were you in the Bronx? I was near St Lawrence Av in the S East/ 6 train. Good times!

[BeyondGeography]

29. Glad you wrote this...Not crazy about either one

I don't see Bernie the Loner as effective at all in the WH and the ever-so-cautious Hillary has always struck me as more unoriginal than competent. Neither one seems like a fully formed, happy adult, tbh. The transition from Obama is difficult for me. I think he was cut out for the job in many ways that these two candidates are not, temperamentally and culturally, for this country and, especially, abroad. HRC will win the nomination; that was apparent to me once it was just her and Bernie, so no sense fighting with other D's about it.

[Number23]

31. Great post. I too have been completely underwhelmed by both candidates. And judging by the voter

turnout in the primaries so far, we're not alone. I am happy to lean Clinton because of the strength of her experience. There is no denying that. But she doesn't inspire the same enthusiasm in me that I've grown accustomed to in the last two elections. I've also been incredibly disgusted by many of the antics from the Sanders campaign which I think has definitely colored how I look at Sanders now.

The transition from Obama will be unbearable. Good Lord, I am going to miss that man and that family in the White House.

[BeyondGeography]

34. Me too

Their pending departure pains me. As a longtime, full-on passenger on the O train, I probably was never going to fall all over one of his potential replacements, but their shortcomings are real.

[xloadiex]

33. No wonder you're alone

Both Sanders and Trump have as their base angry, ignorant, whites.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511331773

[beam me up scottie]

38. Wow, I forgot about that one. Thanks.

[Onlooker]

41. You singled out one sentence ....

... from a much longer post that focused on the vicious attacks on Hillary by Sanders supporters -- blaming her for coups, AIDS, homophobia, the evils of capitalism, corruption, and so on. The posts were so over the top that I responded in kind. I should have qualified that sentence, but if Bernie supporters are going to imply that Hillary supporters support the devil, then let's see how Bernie supporters respond to equally overstated attacks.

[Kentonio]

46. So in fact you're happy to play a full part in the same extreme rhetoric you're now whining about?

[xloadiex]

50. That one sentence

said all I needed to see.

[Art_from_Ark]

76. You should take a look at that poster's hides

Holy cow!

[shadowandblossom]

40. hi.

Onlooker, that was a great post.

For me I'm troubled by the dismissive attitude towards people who disagree with Sanders views and the my way or the highway attitude. The planned parenthood, establishment comment is an example of that. He sort of went back on it, but it still said a lot to me as a woman. The religious behaviors and intolerance to dissent, healthy criticism, and questioning that I've run into online with many Sander's supporters here has also troubled me deeply. It showed up in some of the responses you got. Even though you prefer Sanders, simply because you don't tow the line completely and in every way, you get reacted to like you're views are fake.

Clinton, she has her issues and is not for everyone--I do think she'll try to do right by people though whether they vote for her or not.

There is room for you here. You don't have to be for one or the other, and don't have to toe the line completely for either of them and neither do I

People are pretty gung-ho one way or the other and it's possible to like one candidate without bashing the other. I'm trying to do that less myself... It can be easy to get sucked in. I'm trying to approach it better and more respectfully.

[Onlooker]

45. Thanks

Well, really a lot of nice responses and a lesson to me to be a little more polite and a lot less petty even when Hillary supporters are being labeled as homophobic, racist, sexist, militaristic, avaricious, or uneducated. As I wrote in another thread, we really have two great candidates, great for different reasons, and we should be thankful that we're in this together no matter who we support.

[athena]

47. You're not alone. We're the quiet majority.

I also donated to Sanders in the beginning, but his attacks against Clinton turned me off. I was not excited about Hillary Clinton in the beginning, but then I read more about her and realized how wrong the claims made about her are. The unfortunate reality is that if you're a competent woman in a male-dominated field, some people -- both men and women -- will hate you no matter what you do. The harder you work and the smarter you are, the more they will hate you. They will spread lies about you. They'll say horrible things behind your back. Anyone who has worked in a highly male-dominated field as a woman knows this. Unfortunately, most people who hear the lies believe them and go off and repeat them, rather than try to get to know the person for themselves.

[xloadiex]

53. What attacks against Clinton?

You mean pointing out the truth? Please, what attacks are you talking about? What claims made against her are false? Stop with this woman BS. Man or woman she should be held to the same accountability as anyone else. I truly think Clinton supporters want her handled with kid gloves because she's a woman.

[athena]

57. Exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Your very message is an attack against both Hillary Clinton and her supporters, claiming we want a playing field tilted in her favor, when no one said such a thing.

[xloadiex]

60. You said HIS attacks against Clinton.

Please clarify, what attacks are you talking about? I would love to hear how Bernie attacked her?

[PragmaticLiberal]

48. Pretty much agree with this entire post.

I was originally an O'Malley supporter but obviously their weren't that many of us...so now I have a decision to make.


Honestly, not a fan of Hillary though I don't despise her like many do. I'm just concerned about her hawkish nature.


I was leaning towards Bernie at one point but my interactions with 70% of his supporters over issues (particularly race), have soured me.


Yeah, I know I shouldn't let random folks on the internet influence me etc etc

I'll probably just sit this one out.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

51. Pay attention to the candidates, not their supporters.

There are assholes and fanatics on both sides, and the anonymity of the Internet brings out the worst. Ignore them. Listen to what the candidates themselves say and make your own decision.

[cantbeserious]

52. Your Transparency Page Undermines Your Post

eom

[Onlooker]

61. No it doesn't

My transparency page is as much an explanation of this post as anything. I make it darn clear in this post that Bernie supporters are too often intolerant ideologues and my transparency page simply shows examples where I have confronted that.

[cantbeserious]

65. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[DesertRat]

54. This is a very thoughtful post

I hear what you're saying and I think that many feel the same way that you do. I think that you are very brave to post in this forum considering the very toxic environment around here these days.

Peace.

[JimDandy]

56. Look at his transparency page folks. His posts are no peach whoever you support.

He's had a place on my ignore list for a while for a good reason. Saw this when I wasn't signed in.

ETA: I see others have posted the same, but will leave, because in this case redundancy is a good thing.

[840high]

62. I did look.

[Mary Mac]

58. lol I realize eight years ago

As a zealous Obama supporter I must have been insufferable.

[H2O Man]

63. Very interesting.

Regardless of if I agree with you on whatever issue, one thing is clear to me: You need to teach. That isn't limited to inside a class room. You have a combination of experience and insight that is of real value.

Keep on fighting the Good Fight!

[AgadorSparticus]

69. You are not alone. I feel the same way. I was originally a hillary supporter, found Bernie,

Came back to DU and found i really dislike the Bernie supporters. I had to remind myself that in real life, it is not like this. On DU, they are very polarizing and engage in relentless ad hominum attacks. They SAY Hillary supporters do it just as much, but I just haven't seen it. It is mostly the Bernie camp that are arrogant, demanding, and everything I see of Trump, I see in them. It is heartbreaking.

The Bernie camp here on DU REALLY gives the Sanders campaign a bad name. But my intention is to vote for the person. Not for their supporters who are just outliers in the overall scheme of things. Just remember that not all of Sanders supporters are like this.

You are not alone. They are just really vocal. Screaming day in and day out how satanic hillary is can get exhausting to hear. But know that the majority is silent. And the more they scream that negativity, the more they are actually distancing themselves from a whole lot of people. It is VERY off putting. I am back to voting for Hillary because, well, she is going to be the nominee...unless a miracle happens.

[JesterCS]

89. I guess it's perception

To me it seems the exact opposite

[Dem2]

75. Wow! Thank you.

I'm dismayed that I didn't click on this post sooner. You've encapsulated my feelings about this year's election better than I'm capable of writing.

[One of the 99]

77. Great post!

Like you, I support Bernie but don't hate Clinton. And I am on many occasions dismayed by the vitriol of some Bernie supporters.

[dchill]

78. Go and freep no more.

[Art_from_Ark]

80. LOL

[Scuba]

81. Is that you David?

David Brock, speaking at the Clinton School of Lying Smears

[Orsino]

82. Another goddamned "supporters" thread. n/t

[Jitter65]

83. Thanks for the post. You are not alone. Don't let the vile get to you.

[one_voice]

84. Back in '08 I was a firm Obama

supporter. I did not hate Hillary and had she won would have voted for her. But Obama was my candidate.

I started this time with O'Malley.

I like both Bernie & Hillary. I also dislike things about both.

I don't talk shit about either candidate. That's not my style.

No candidate is perfect. NONE. As much as I like Obama there are definitely things I wish he hadn't done, things I wish he's done better and things I just disagree with. BUT I'd vote for him again without hesitation.

In the end I will vote for the Dem candidate, because I feel like the republicans are horrible people. What they will do to women, the poor, LGBT, I can't even imagine. They scare the shit out of me.

I'm voting my conscience. I'm not going to try and persuade anyone else how to vote. Everyone has to do what they feel is best for them and maybe the country.

[lovemydog]

86. Yes, there are others who share your point of view!

As an admirer of Angela Davis (both her writings and the way she lives her life) I was kind of waiting to hear what she'd have to say about these primaries. The other day she gave an interview and her thoughts were remarkably similar to what I've been feeling too, and to what you're saying. I figure for me at least, that puts me in good company.

To me also, congressional elections and local and state elections and just the way we live our lives offline and the ways we treat ourselves and one another (even with differing views) - all those things are very important to me. I'm very encouraged by younger people's movement toward more inclusion and more progressivism. That's the way forward now and in the future. My November vote is very significant to me. Think globally, act locally. I know it's a bit trite but it's meaningful to me in the way I try and live. Thanks for your insightful post. Hope you enjoy a wonderful day.

[ZombieHorde]

90. In the US, both the right and left are extremely violent.

Both support white supremacy, such as the current US justice system. I think Sanders is the least violent of the major candidates, but I strongly suspect he will indirectly order the deaths of many innocent people. The pragmatic murderer seems more respected to me than the peaceful dreamer. Remember the reaction of many on the left to Kucinich's Department of Peace? I remember ridicule from many, but not all, on the left. Both the left and the right demonize nonviolence, unless, of course, it's minorities protesting their inhumane treatment. The downtrodden are expected to be passive, while the rich are respected for their hard, violent, white supremacist, decisions.

All that said, the Democratic Party seems less violent and less white supremacist to me than the Republican Party, so I vote Democrat, but still....

Disclaimer: I've been drinking all day, so if my post makes no sense, then I'm sorry you wasted your time reading the ramblings of a drunken dreamer.

[shadowandblossom]

92. Do you think of it as stemming from conscious intent?

A subconscious issue in individuals?

Is it structural racism that is just built our culture and into the system?

What are your thoughts on it?

[ZombieHorde]

95. The Standford prison experiment

had college students take on either the roll of prisoner or prison guard. The experiment was ended after only six days because these rolls completely fucked with their heads. The "guards" were mentally abusing the "prisoners" and even the guy directing the experiment got caught up in it because the authoritarian rolls were so powerful on the minds of all involved. The authority was making them cruel. I don't think the Standford prison experiment was repeated. I think it was deemed too damaging to try again, but I could be wrong.

The Milgram experiment pitted people's morality against their desire to obey authority. The experiment tricked the subjects into believing they were hurting another person, and most of the subjects obeyed the command to hurt people even though they were bothered by what they were doing. This experiment has been repeated several times, and in each case, most of the subjects chose obedience over their own morality.

So we have authority making people cruel, and most of us would rather abandon our own morality than disobey authority. The Standford prison experiment was only done once, that I know of, and it ended early, so my claim "authority makes people cruel," only has a little bit of backing, but there is a lot of evidence that people will abandon their morality if told to do so by an authority figure.

I also think we are easily scared into violence. Most of us believe killing is better than being killed, so if an authority figure says we are being threatened, and we desperately want to both live and please authority figures, violence seems like the best option, no matter how many times they get caught crying wolf.

There's tons of reasons, but these are what came to mind when you asked.

[pantsonfire]

93. Hillary isn't rigid, LGBTQ people thank her for it....n/t

[Betty Karlson]

94. Hillary's campaign welcomes everyone? Does that mean millennials are no-one now?

I assume this is some elaborate April Fools of yours?

I don't agree 100% with Bernie, and still feel welcome in his campaign. The dogmatism is with the "Hillary or Else" crowd.

As for Clionton not being "rigid": the word you are looking for is "shifting positions any way the wind blows" - which is why she cannot be trusted. She is, however, very consistent on always doing the right thing after all available alternatives have been tried and rejected.

[Autumn]

96. .

Bernie Butter!