Some countries that have had a female head of state

[struggle4progress]

Australia
Bahamas
Bangladesh
Bulgaria
Burundi
Canada
Central African Republic
Ceylon
Croatia
Denmark
Dominica
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Guinea-Bissau
Guyana
Haiti
Iceland
India
Israel
Jamaica
Latvia
Lithuania
Macedonia
Madagascar
Mali
Moldova
Mongolia
Mozambique
Namibia
New Zealand
Northern Cyprus
Norway
Pakistan
Peru
Poland
Portugal
Rwanda
Sao Tome
Senegal
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Korea
Sri Lanka
Thailand
Transnistria
Trinidad
Turkey
Ukraine
UK
Yugoslavia

[Nye Bevan]

1. England is way ahead of the US on having a female head of state.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/mary_i_queen.shtml

[ReasonableToo]

119. I'd enthusiastically vote for Elizabeth Warren.

Not so much Hillary Thatcher.

Many in UK would not vote for Thatcher given the benefit of hindsight.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

122. Unfortunately they had Margaret Thatcher.

The prime minister is the head of government (and Thatcher was truly awful). The Queen is the head of state, but her powers over the government are now limited by acts of Parliament.

[RandySF]

2. It's our time now.

[hobbit709]

5. then support one that is not corrupt.

Or is being a female more important to you than being honest and ethical?

[RandySF]

10. I do. I support Hillary.

[hobbit709]

18. Evidently you didn't read

"Or is being a female more important to you than being honest and ethical?"

that last part leaves Hillary out.

[RandySF]

21. You're right. I don't read Facebook posts, chain emails, Reddit and most DU comments

[hobbit709]

28. So you just admitted what your problem is. Low information.

and for not reading most DU comments you sure seem to respond to them.

[RandySF]

53. Because I don't get my information from a bunch of Bernie bros in their basements?

[hobbit709]

56. what's a basement?

I've never lived in a house with a basement.

[beam me up scottie]

127. But you do get it from SpamDan, does he still live in his mom's basement?

[edbermac]

54. Jury results

On Tue Mar 29, 2016, 10:32 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

So you just admitted what your problem is. Low information.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1606669

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Rude unprovoked personal attack.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Mar 29, 2016, 10:41 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What a bullshit butthurt alert! Go hide under your bed, snowflake.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm voting to leave it because calling it an unprovoked attack is not exactly true. Some posters provoke in one thread and then follow a poster to another thread hoping they will attack them so they can alert on them (viewing history). I think this one can be handled by discussing in the thread.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is dancing on the border. But not over.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: A way to call someone stupid.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[hobbit709]

60. Never fails, someone fron The Holy Church Of Perpetual Poutrage will have a cow.

[revbones]

102. But apparently find it ok to reply without reading? nt

[MFM008]

143. whoa

Most everyone who says Hillary Clinton LIES are republicans or trolls.
She is no more or less honest than Sanders, She is also doing nothing less than Barack Obama did and if you think shes NOT a democrat your nothing less than a Trump voter.

[KitSileya]

150. BS supporters routinely call Clinton liar

At least one of them adores calling her HiLIARy. She's also called a murderer, and they've started digging up Vince Foster conspiracy theories. They are proud water bearers for Karl Rove, apparently.

But, getting back to the topic of the thread, Norway's now on her second female prime minister. The first one, Gro Harlem Brundtland, was in the 80s from the Labour party and went on to chair WHO before she retired. The current one is Erna Solberg, from the Conservative party. Last time they were in goverment, in the 90s, their finance minister was openly gay. Their current finance minister is also a woman.

[Avalon Sparks]

167. No one called her a liar...

They said she was unethical and corrupt. I agree.

I don't need a freeper site or conspiracy theory to make the determination.

Her and Bill have accepted millions in influence money from Pharm, Insurance, Financial, and Defense Industry via an unheard of amount for speaking fees, the benefited their redo so wealth.

Do you really think she will support or push for any legislation that hurts their bottom line?

She's put herself in a position where she cannot act with integrity either way.

Either she hurts these mega money 'donors' or hurts us via policy, either way she throws one group or the other under the bus.

An ethical person would not take the money in the first place. It's really that simple.

[NNadir]

156. If one were to read anything at all about climate change, and cared about it...

...one would never consider voting for Senator Sanders.

One of the very smug things that Sanders supporters do is to assume that their sound bites are a substitute for thinking.

One of the ethical holes in their self congratulatory assumption of their own honesty is that in order to know what honesty is, one would need to know what truth is.

As an environmentalist, who deplores the increase in carbon dioxide emissions in Vermont because of policies Sanders supports, who regrets that pristine mountains in that state are being ripped up to produce electricity in needlessly damaging ways, I certainly feel that Senator Sanders views on energy are either dishonest or ignorant.

It doesn't matter which is the case. The effect is the same.

Have a nice day tomorrow.

[franannjo]

58. Good

You must just love margeret thatcher.

[beam me up scottie]

20. Wow. Entitled much?

There goes the argument that Hillary supporters don't want a coronation.

[RandySF]

25. She'll go out and win it

Don't worry about coronations.

[beam me up scottie]

33. You said it was her turn like she's entitled to it.

She's not, she hasn't earned my trust or support.

[okasha]

72. Wrong.

The poster said "it's our time."

Big difference, starting with the pronouns.

[beam me up scottie]

75. So why does Randy think he's included? He's not female. Is he part of her entourage?

[okasha]

100. Last I heard, the US also has male citizens.

[beam me up scottie]

101. So when he said "it's our time" he meant Hillary and her supporters.

Sounde like entitlement to me.

Too bad we're getting in the way of that coronation.

[okasha]

106. Little wheel, spin and spin.

He meant the US. That's a list of nations in the OP.

But keep trying, BMUS. Ain't gonna work.

Bye, now.

[beam me up scottie]

110. Bye okasha!

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

3. I think everyone here would gladly support a woman, just the right woman.

To many of us that was Elizabeth Warren, but she was strong armed by the DNC and Clinton Campaign from running.

[athena]

14. That's a very disingenuous argument.

It's easy to say that about a woman who is not running for president. The moment she started running and opened her mouth, most of you would find something to criticize about her. The idea of a powerful woman is still deeply threatening to a lot of men and women. So threatening that they have to vilify the woman in question.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

23. You don't know me. Very rude to assume someone is a misogynist because they don't like a candidate.

Did you support Carly Fiorina? Sarah Palin? Michelle Bachmann?

[athena]

29. Did I say anything about you specifically?

I re-read my post and don't see any references to you. Perhaps it's a reading comprehension problem?

If you are claiming that Hillary Clinton is no more liberal or qualified than Fiorina, Palin, and Bachmann, you reveal an amazing lack of knowledge of these people's positions.

ETA: No one ever said we should vote for any woman, regardless of her positions. But it's so convenient to twist a person's argument, isn't it?

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

37. Well that was not my point...

I am well aware Hillary is not comparable to any right winger female candidate, but your point was that criticism of Hillary Clinton is coming from a place of misogyny (even if it might be unconscious). It is something I noticed from the start with this primary, when Hillary tried to use Sanders line about shouting to try and spin it as sexist. Men and women running for office should be able to take criticism especially if it not coming from a place of sexist hate.

[truedelphi]

51. I found it very rude that the remark was made to you.

I would support any woman who, like the female counterpart in Iceland, makes the Banking Class pay for their follies, and I want to avoid voting for any woman who is a neo con like Margaret Thatcher.

[opiate69]

44. ...

[Ned_Devine]

49. Wow! That's a really dumb blanket statement

I'm pretty sure we all would have gotten behind Elizabeth Warren without any hesitation. I'm a white male Bernie supporter from MA who phone banked and door knocked for her in 2012. I don't feel deeply threatened by her. No, I'm inspired by her. I don't like the campaign that Hillary ran against Obama in '08. I don't like that she has to keep "coming around" to ideas that we were already for decades before. I don't like the Rovian tactics she employs against her democratic opponent. I feel as though if she had an (R) next to her name, we'd all be against her, but since she's got that (D) next to her name, so many of people are closing their eyes to all of her flaws.

[litlbilly]

27. I absolutely would, Elizabeth Warren comes to mind. I would not want a Margaret thatcher thats for

sure.

[artislife]

4. and....?

[beam me up scottie]

6. This is supposed to make me vote for Hillary?

Maybe if you could explain how this makes her better qualified for the job?

[LonePirate]

9. She's certainly better qualified than any Repub candidate, isn't she?

[beam me up scottie]

16. What does that have to do with the op?

We're still in primary season.

[LonePirate]

42. You're the one who brought up being qualified for the job. To earn the job she has to defeat a Repub

[beam me up scottie]

50. I was asking why being a woman would make her more qualified.

The op didn't explain what his point was, an I supposed to read his mind?

[Ned_Devine]

55. That's a pretty low bar. We have higher expectations than "At least X is better than Y"

[LonePirate]

59. Sometimes the GE presents us with low bars which still require a choice. It's a valid question.

Of course it was dodged because it is impossible for some Sanders supporters to speak one iota of truth about Clinton.

[Ned_Devine]

65. I'm sick of having to make that shitty choice. I did it for Kerry in '04...

...and I was really just voting against Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rove. No more of that. I live in MA and if I want to vote Green, I can.

[LonePirate]

70. Oh boo hoo. Life sucks sometimes and we have to make shitty choices. Deal with it.

Vote Dem or elect a Repub in November. The choice is a simple one even if you don't like it.

[Ned_Devine]

78. I don't know who you are, but you're being way too rude

Maybe this works with other people, but I am not going to tolerate it. I'm not being rude to you, so please take your attitude elsewhere.

[LonePirate]

80. You replied to me with profanity and I'm the rude one?

Perhaps you should seek out a website advocating the Green Party if you don't like Democrats standing up for Democrats on a website for Democrats.

[Ned_Devine]

83. We're still doing this? Saying a choice is "shitty" is some mild profanity.

Yes, you were rude.

[LonePirate]

88. People in glass houses shouldn't cast stones.

Don't accuse someone else of being rude if you were the first one to be rude. Hypocrisy does not sit well with me.

[Ned_Devine]

98. If I had said YOU are a shitty choice, THAT would be rude. But that's not what happened

I said the choice was shitty and that I'm all set with holding my nose for the person I vote for. YOU were rude in telling me to "deal with it." I don't know you well enough to have to listen to demands with ultimatums from you. See you later.

[Kalidurga]

103. You are a lot like Hillary. I don't mean that as a compliment.

And your avatar doesn't fool anyone.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

123. That's a pretty low bar.

Just about any random person chosen from the phone book would be better than Trump or Cruz.

[athena]

19. Women are better at understanding women's issues.

What makes you think Bernie will be better for women than Hillary given that he can't even be bothered to treat women equally in his campaign:

http://theslot.jezebel.com/an-investigation-which-presidential-campaigns-have-the-1762895557

Or do you think that women's issues are not important?

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

26. Bernie has a 100% lifetime record with planned parenthood...

[athena]

34. Boiling women's issues down to Planned Parenthood alone

shows exactly what's wrong with electing a candidate who doesn't understand that wage equality is another issue that is important to women.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Bernie sponsored an ERA - twice.

You really should find another source for anti-Bernie talking points.

[athena]

52. Please explain why he pays women so much less.

A fact becomes a "talking point" when it reveals a problem with Bernie Sanders? Not paying women equally in his own campaign, and not promoting women to top-paying positions, is not a talking point. It is a fact. A very disturbing one.

[beam me up scottie]

61. How much less and how many women? Also how do their qualifications differ from the men's?

Do they make less for the same job?

I need specifics, since you claim these aren't talking points you must know quite a bit about this, please elaborate.

[athena]

76. Oh, wow. Now you're making right-wing arguments against equal pay for women.

Is it really so important to attack Hillary that one should resort to right-wing arguments?

You didn't bother to read the article, did you? It provides lots of details. It even names names, so you can Google the people and tell us which women Hillary employs don't deserve equal pay for equal work.

What I see is that out of the top 10 Hillary campaign staff, six are male and four female. Out of the top 10 Bernie campaign staff, ten are male and zero are female. If you really think that's a matter of qualifications, you must have a very low opinion of women.

[beam me up scottie]

84. Nice try. You accused Bernie of promoting men over women and paying them more, now prove it.

Is it really so important to attack Hillary that one should resort to right-wing arguments?

Straw man, I didn't attack Hillary.

You didn't bother to read the article, did you? It provides lots of details. It even names names, so you can Google the people and tell us which women Hillary employs don't deserve equal pay for equal work.

I did actually and it doesn't say what you claim it does, that's why I asked you to back up your allegations.

What I see is that out of the top 10 Hillary campaign staff, six are male and four female. Out of the top 10 Bernie campaign staff, ten are male and zero are female. If you really think that's a matter of qualifications, you must have a very low opinion of women.

And that proves that Bernie prompted men over women how? You need to provide evidence for your claims since you made them up.

If these aren't prepackaged talking points you should have the data.

[beam me up scottie]

116. athena, where did you go? Yoo hoo!

[opiate69]

121. Must be meeting with the rest of the brain trust to figure out the next tack.

[beam me up scottie]

126. Bwahahaha! Oh my dog I loved that show!

Who am I???

[opiate69]

128. Pickles!!

[beam me up scottie]

129. Awesome! TTT and Laverne!

[opiate69]

104. ROFLMAO!

This genius is claiming that her link (to some random nobody's unsupported analysis) proves that Bernie pays the women on his staff less than the men.... let's have a gander, eh?

...Bernie Sanders’ campaign pays women on average a little under $1,000 more than men,

They even included a handy little image for the non-reading types!
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--4CoYSCV5--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/vcfpm0whurxnrrs36iv7.png

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

107. OMG thanks for pointing that out...

I misread it as being paid less but even if it were the other way round it would be only a couple cents on the dollar difference.

[opiate69]

125. Hehe... I think we're well into the absurd portion of our show now!

[beam me up scottie]

108. Let's put that in caps: BERNIE'S CAMPAIGN PAYS WOMEN...MORE THAN MEN

[opiate69]

111. And, just in case there's any questionable deletes...

athena (1,268 posts)
52. Please explain why he pays women so much less.

A fact becomes a "talking point" when it reveals a problem with Bernie Sanders? Not paying women equally in his own campaign, and not promoting women to top-paying positions, is not a talking point. It is a fact. A very disturbing one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1606731

[beam me up scottie]

114. "It is a fact. A very disturbing one"

Oh my, I wonder where our worthy opponent went?

Thanks!

[opiate69]

117. Hehe.

[beam me up scottie]

118. Now stand aside, worthy adversary!

[Art_from_Ark]

173. LOL!!!

Perfect!

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

41. Please I beg you listen to a Sanders stump speech...

He literally says every rally:

"And we are listening to women, and women are telling us they are sick and tired of working the same jobs as men and only getting 70 cents on the dollar"

[athena]

46. Why can't he treat women equally in his own campaign?

You're telling me I should believe Bernie's words over his actions?

I'm sorry, I'm tired of empty promises. I look at actions. It's easy to say women want to be paid equally. It's harder to actually pay women equally. Please explain why Bernie can't pay women equally the way Hillary does. I suspect you didn't bother to read the article I posted, so here it is again:

http://theslot.jezebel.com/an-investigation-which-presidential-campaigns-have-the-1762895557

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

77. Why do you keep posting that link...

Are you aware that a difference of less than $1000 a year in salary comes out to hourly wages that are almost identical?

Furthermore you keep changing stories, when I point out how something you say regarding Sanders is untrue, you just pivot to something new and completely downplay his actions and words.

[athena]

91. Because you're not responding to it.

You're the one who changes stories, while avoiding responding to the point that was made. You're the one who brought up abortion when I had posted about equal pay. Again, a beloved right-wing tactic: accusing your opponent of your own flaws.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

96. You are confused... I never brought up abortion...

I pointed out that he has a 100% record with planned parenthood, that he is always speaking out at every campaign stump about women's issues, and that he sponsored ERA legislation.

Finally I responded to it though you didn't acknowledge the points... In no company does everyone have the exact same pay...

If you assume 50k salary for the man, and 49,250 salary for the woman (less than $1000 difference) then in terms of the standard 70 cents per dollar argument. Women are on average being paid 98.5 cents per dollar. I fail to see the poutrage.

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

109. Also someone just pointed out that according to your link Sanders is actually paying the women more.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

134. Did you read your own link?

Or did you just not notice that Hillary pays her female staff LESS then her male staff on average and Bernie pays his female staff MORE than his male staff on average.

Averages which, by the way, include all those top staffers.

Now it's your turn to answer: why can't Hillary treat women equally in her campaign?

[athena]

135. Did you read the whole thing or pick out parts?

The difference in the averages and medians is statistically insignificant in both campaigns. (It's a less-than one-percent effect.) What is statistically significant is that Hillary's campaign has many more women (in fact it's the only campaign that employs a majority of women); four out of the top ten highest-paid employees are female (statistically consistent with 50%); and the top paid employee is female. Bernie's campaign does not have a single woman among the top ten.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

139. "Please explain why he pays women so much less."

"The difference in the averages and medians is statistically insignificant in both campaigns."

So you directly contradicted yourself with those two statements, and now you're claiming the problem is that he doesn't employ enough women. Which is it?

Do you understand how mean and median works? For Bernie's staff both numbers are higher for women than for men, indicating that the higher paid employees tend to be women. Not necessarily the highest paid, but there's no reasonable way you can claim that he pays women less than men.

And again, the opposite is true for Hillary. Even with so many of her top earners being women, the mean and median salaries for her female employees are lower than her male employees. This means she has a relatively large number of low paid female employees.

[athena]

141. I have a Ph.D. in physics.

What you seem not to understand is the idea of statistical significance.

All of the statements in your post can be understood by noting that Bernie employs far fewer women than men. Let me give you a concrete example. Suppose he has 100 women and 200 men working for him. All 100 women are secretaries paid, say, $1250/month. He has 100 paper delivery boys paid $500/month, and 100 male top campaigners paid $2000 a month. He will be paying men and women the same amount on average -- i.e., $1250/month, but that does not mean he pays women as much as he pays men.

What is significant is the fact that Bernie has zero women among his top-ten campaign staff. The probability of a Poisson distribution with a mean of five fluctuating to zero is, if I'm correct, 0.7%. In other words, the probability that Sanders has zero women among his top ten highest paid staff purely because of statistics is 0.7%.


ETA: By the way, to make the median work out as well as the mean, all you need to add to my example above is one single man getting paid $1250/month. That will ensure that both the mean and the median are equal for men and women, in spite of the highly skewed employment situation.

[beam me up scottie]

145. Oh good you're back, care to explain why Bernie pays his women staffers MORE then the men?

...Bernie Sanders’ campaign pays women on average a little under $1,000 more than men,

You kept telling me that he paid them less and demanded an explanation but you never responded.

athena

52. Please explain why he pays women so much less.

A fact becomes a "talking point" when it reveals a problem with Bernie Sanders? Not paying women equally in his own campaign, and not promoting women to top-paying positions, is not a talking point. It is a fact. A very disturbing one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1606731

[rock]

74. "He literally SAYS every rally..."

Gee, what does this cost him?

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

81. Well the other poster pointed out he has sponsored ERA legislation twice. nt

[rock]

90. Wow

That is a lot!

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

92. I think we are done here. Clearly nothing he has done or will do is good enough... nt

[beam me up scottie]

124. Sponsoring it twice = NOT GOOD ENUFF BERMIE!!1!

[beam me up scottie]

30. For starters he wouldn't agree to further restrictions on abortion.

Unlike Hillary Bernie has always been 100% pro-choice, he trusts women.

Q: Are there circumstances when the government should limit choice?

LAZIO: I had a pro-choice record in the House, and I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I support a ban on partial-birth abortions. Senator Moynihan called it “infanticide.” Even former mayor Ed Koch agreed that this was too extreme a procedure. This is an area where I disagree with my opponent. My opponent opposes a ban on partial-birth abortions.

CLINTON: My opponent is wrong. I have said many times that I can support a ban on late-term abortions, including partial-birth abortions, so long as the health and life of the mother is protected. I’ve met women who faced this heart-wrenching decision toward the end of a pregnancy. Of course it’s a horrible procedure. No one would argue with that. But if your life is at stake, if your health is at stake, if the potential for having any more children is at stake, this must be a woman’s choice.

Source: Senate debate in Manhattan , Oct 8, 2000

http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Hillary_Clinton_Abortion.htm

She even used right wing terminology calling late term abortions "partial birth abortions":

And again just last year:

Women's issues encompass far more than abortion but that's just one reason I don't trust her.

[athena]

39. Me, I look at how they run their campaigns.

See the article I linked. I find it hard to trust a man who not only doesn't pay women equally on his campaign but can't even listen to a woman speak without waving his hands in her face.

As for Hillary's stance on abortion, she is a politician. She has had to be a centrist to remain viable as a politician over the decades. She has not had the luxury Bernie has had of being a purist who doesn't need to get things done to remain in office. See the following for details:

http://www.thenation.com/article/can-hillary-clinton-win-over-the-left/

[beam me up scottie]

47. So abortion rights aren't a deal breaker for you? They are for me, women will die.

Once she puts abortion on the table there's no going back.

And your other argument is absurd, Bernie has always been a champion for income equality, haven't you been paying attention? He sponsored an ERA twice.

And waving his hands around? Isn't that rather shallow? That's like someone not voting for Hillary because they don't like her hair. What a bizarre thing to obsess about.

[athena]

57. Once again, please explain why his actions are not consistent with his rhetoric.

Why is it that Bernie can't pay women equally in his own campaign? Why is it that he can't promote women to top levels in his own campaign the way he promotes men? Assuming you're a woman, does this not disturb you in the least?

Personally, I find it insulting that a man would think he would get my vote by saying certain things that are inconsistent with his actions.

[beam me up scottie]

71. I just did, his actions include sponsoring legislation and voting for gender income equality.

Weren't you paying attention?

Why is it that Bernie can't pay women equally in his own campaign? Why is it that he can't promote women to top levels in his own campaign the way he promotes men? Assuming you're a woman, does this not disturb you in the least?

Can you be more specific? Who is he paying less and is it for the same job? Are the women working the same jobs but gettig paid less? How many men were promoted over women women? I need details before I can comment.

Thank in advance!

[athena]

82. Your opinions are clearly set in stone.

You have not responded to a single point I posted, instead using the typical tactic of ignoring the point a person makes, asking additional questions, and ignoring the answers to those questions. I have already responded to your argument that Bernie does not pay women equally because the women on his campaign are simply less qualified than the men. Welcome to my ignore list.

[beam me up scottie]

87. What opinions? I provided facts to back up my assertions, that's how this works.

I responded to each one of your claims, why can't you answer my questions?

Surely you must have facts to back then up?

[athena]

94. You know very well that you did not respond to any of my points.

No one, not you, nor anyone else, has been able to explain why Bernie can't be bothered to pay women equally or promote women to top levels in his campaign.

And claiming that women are not qualified enough to be paid equally or to be promoted is neither a fact nor an argument.

[beam me up scottie]

99. The only one saying he can't pay women or promote them equally is you.

So it's your bullshit to back up.

And claiming that women are not qualified enough to be paid equally or to be promoted is neither a fact nor an argument.

No one claimed that, quit using strawman arguments.

One more time: You claimed he paid women less and passed them over for jobs.

Now you need to provide details that show women who were equally qualified are being paid less and/or passed up for jobs in favour of men.

So go ahead, give me the facts. I'll wait.

[litlbilly]

32. athena, you are just rediculous, sorry, you are now on my ignore list.

[athena]

40. Thanks for the heads up.

You're on mine now.

[Wilms]

35. Well, I think they're important. And I'm sure Hillary does.

Hillary: I could compromise on abortion if it included exceptions for mother's health

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511552065

[athena]

67. Read the whole sentence.

It is very clever. She often does this. She puts an "if" clause in the beginning, which is a requirement that will never be met. Here is what she says:

"if there is a way to structure some kind of constitutional restrictions that take into account the life of the mother and her health, then I'm open to that."

That's a very big "if". A huge "if".

This is why I admire and support Hillary. She's incredibly smart. So smart that it goes over most people's heads.

[Wilms]

73. So, at best, she's hoodwinking.

You're OK with that? Who else does she hood-wink?

Do you wonder why her trustworthiness is questioned?

[athena]

79. It's called being a politician.

It's the same thing Bernie does when he claims he will overturn Citizens United, knowing full well that no president can overturn a Supreme Court decision. But apparently, being a politician is OK if your name is "Bernie Sanders" and not OK if your name is "Hillary Clinton".

[Wilms]

130. Where did he say HE would overturn it??

He said SCOTUS appointments would be based on it.

[athena]

133. No, he said he would overturn it. Repeatedly.

You didn't watch the debates?

Here is an example from the seventh debate:
http://time.com/4249183/democratic-debate-flint-full-text-transcript-seventh/

SANDERS: And that is why, by the way, that is why one of my top priorities, if elected president will be to overturn this outrageous Citizens United Supreme Court (INAUDIBLE).

[Wilms]

136. Well, I'd appreciate the (INAUDIBLE) part.

I think it should be a top priority.

And that has to do with SCOTUS picks. What is the problem?? And what has HRC said about CU?

[bettyellen]

105. At best- everyone here claiming she will compromise on abortion is "hoodwinking" DUers.

You guys have nothing to brag about when it comes to integrity. Anyone who knows about the struggle for womens' reproductive rights sees right through this bullshit.

[Wilms]

131. I didn't say it. Hillary said it.

What?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511552065

[marions ghost]

164. Bernie pushes paid family leave legislation

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/265228-sanders-pushes-paid-family-leave-legislation

Of 185 countries and territories surveyed by the International Labor Organization, the United States is one of two that doesn’t provide paid maternity leave. Papua New Guinea is the other that doesn’t offer it.

[FSogol]

7. You forgot Cristina Fernández de Kirchner and Mary Robinson.

They were Presidents of Argentina and Ireland, respectively.

[greatauntoftriplets]

17. Also Mary McAleese of Ireland.

[suffragette]

8. Is the list including queens/non-elected leaders?

Has France had an elected female head of state?

[athena]

162. Apparently, the list includes whatever anyone can think of

which, in my opinion, renders it meaningless.

Someone named Hawaii. I thought they were referring to former governor Linda Lingle and pointed out that Hawaii is not a country. Apparently, they were referring to Queen Liliokalani, who ruled for two years. If the one Hawaiian queen matters, then so does Queen Victoria, and so do all the pre-historic countries, or whatever one might have called them, that were matriarchies.

If we're talking about comparing Hillary Clinton to someone, then, in my opinion, we're talking about people like Margaret Thatcher and Angela Merkel, not people like Queen Liliokalani and Queen Victoria.

France had Edith Cresson as prime minister between 1991 and 1992. Canada had Kim Campbell for several months in 1993. Australia had Julia Gillard between 2010 and 2013. Turkey had Tansu Ciller between 1993 and 1996. Female elected leaders tend not to last very long, unfortunately. People don't seem to like women to have that much power.

(Edited to give better examples.)

[suffragette]

166. On this we can agree

I think the naming of the list should be accurate and, in this case, as you note it seems to be all inclusive. No issue with that really, as long as it is noted to be such and coheres with whatever point is trying to be made by the OP.

Women leaders could then include queens, regents, French Prime Ministers, etc.

Agree that the most apt comparison would be to Thatcher, Merkel, Bhutto, and other elected female heads of state.

That would also rule out France, since while the Prime Minister wields some power, just as Secretary of State does through its specific role, neither are official Head of State.

Queens can be heads of state, and I like that someone thought to include Queen Liliokalani, since the amorphous list seems to invite that, but that still means the list isn't making the point or serving the purpose the OP seems to have intended.

[stevenleser]

11. You forgot Panama's Mireya Moscoso

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Mireya-Moscoso

Alternative title: Mireya Elisa Moscoso de Gruber
Mireya Moscoso
President of Panama
Also known as
Mireya Elisa Moscoso de Gruber
Born
July 1, 1946
Pedasi, Panama
Mireya Moscoso, in full Mireya Elisa Moscoso de Gruber (born July 1, 1946, Pedasi, Panama), Panamanian politician, who was Panama’s first woman president (1999–2004).

Moscoso was born to a poor family in a rural town. After graduating from high school, she worked as a secretary and in the early 1960s met Arnulfo Arias, a former president of Panama. She began working on his political campaigns, and on October 1, 1968, he was reelected. When he was deposed nine days later by General Omar Torrijos, Moscoso joined Arias in exile in Miami, Florida. There she studied interior design, and in 1969 the two were married. After Arias’s death in 1988, she returned to Panama and in the early 1990s held several minor governmental posts. In 1990 Moscoso helped create the Arnulfista Party, of which she became president the following year. In 1994 she made her first run for the presidency, placing second with 29 percent of the vote.

Moscoso ran again for president in 1999. Her main opponent was Martín Torrijos, the son of former dictator Omar Torrijos and the candidate of the ruling Democratic Revolutionary Party. The platforms of the two principal candidates did not differ in most respects. Overall, she was seen as the more populist candidate, Torrijos as more sympathetic to the concerns of business. Both vowed to reduce poverty, improve education, and create jobs. Moscoso also emphasized her intention to slow the government’s policy of privatization. On May 2, 1999, Moscoso defeated Torrijos, winning 45 percent of the vote to Torrijos’s 38 percent.

[Mike__M]

12. Hawai'i

In case anyone forgot.

[athena]

22. Hawaii is not a country.

[Krytan11c]

43. I guess you're one of the people who forgot

Or simply don't know

[athena]

89. I lived in Hawaii for nine years.

But thanks for the insult.

[-none]

68. Hawaii was an independent country, ruled by a queen...

Until we invaded and took it over.

[opiate69]

86. "Forget it, (s)he's rolling."

[athena]

95. In that case, the U.S. is not a country, either.

The list was titled "countries", not "countries and states that were countries previously".

But who cares about that when the point is to launch personal attacks against a Hillary supporter?

[-none]

115. I was just stating a fact.

Spin it however you want.

[athena]

120. So was I.

As someone who lived in Hawaii a very long time, it annoys me when people don't know that Hawaii is a part of the United States. I've had friends who were treated by some as international students when they went to study in the mainland. It also annoys me greatly when people think of Hawaii as a tourist destination, made for their own pleasure and nothing else. I remember very well the tourists who, after the earthquake of 2006, were annoyed that Waikiki was not the first part of Hawaii to get power back. So it's ironic that I've been attacked for not knowing anything about Hawaii, when I merely stated a truth about Hawaii, by people who probably know Hawaii only as tourists.

[opiate69]

132. Know what annoys me?

When self-important zealots feel the need to climb onto a soapbox, and attempt to educate/browbeat us peons, when it is obvious they are completely clueless to the fact that the material they're citing completely contradicts their ridiculous crusade. But, what do I know.. I'm just a BernieBro, amirite?

[-none]

165. While too many people do think Waikiki is Hawaii,

that still doe not excuse you denying the History of the Islands.
We, the US, took it over because of its strategic military location in the middle of a large nowhere.. The Queen had a choice. Fight or surrender. She surrendered because knew the US military had far superior forces and way too many of her people would be killed. She knew that either way, in the end, the US would take over anyway.
And Hawaii is another place we have not upheld signed agreements with the original inhabitants. Imagine that, huh? Ever hear of Kanaka Maoli?
History is important.

[Mike__M]

142. Yugoslavia is? (n/t)

[tralala]

13. A bunch of those countries are terrible places to be a woman

[athena]

24. The U.S. isn't?

I would beg to differ. Many of those countries are, in fact, better places to be a woman.

[TheFarseer]

15. Let's aspire to be just like Central African Republic and Rawanda.

Why I don't support Hillary Clinton has nothing to do with her gender.

[UMTerp01]

31. The fact that some of these countries are on the list but we aren't is sad

There are some countries on here with some serious human rights issues and whom are considered not as "advanced" as we are. America really has it backwards. But, this is a country that was founded on white supremacy and white male dominance. The laws created and implemented are made to support white, heterosexual, christian men. Disgraceful we haven't had a female US President. I can certainly think of some from years ago who could've and should've been President.

[Smarmie Doofus]

36. If that's your ultimate concern, you might want to stop running the same candidate....

.... over and over.

You don't seem to get it: she loses because PEOPLE DON'T LIKE HER.

And .... their dislike is both sensible and rational.

[arcane1]

45. And when we eventually have a woman president, we'll pat ourselves on the back like we invented it.

We are always thinking of ourselves as the 1st even if we're the 58th

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Yes but how many have had a head of state that is ACTUALLY JUST A HEAD?

[truedelphi]

64. Is this guy the head of Transylvannia? n/t

[djean111]

62. So, because Hillary is a woman, I should support her proclivity for war and fracking and cluster

bombs and increased H-1B visas and opposition to Single Payer and free or greatly reduced college tuition? To overlook her role in fomenting coups and wars? To not mind the lies?

That is some pathetic bullshit. Total fail. And don't pretend your OP is not about Hillary. Hillary is a Third Way neocon hawk. Gender completely irrelevant, and I would not vote for a man who was a Third Way Neocon hawk.

As someone else said, she failed to get the nomination the first time because people just don't like her, her record, her deeds. Stacking the deck this time is not working so smoothly as it was supposed to - playing the gender card and ignoring the real issues. As a woman, I find your list embarrassing, because it really is saying forget the issues and deeds, we just need to elect a woman. That is fucking right well not what feminism is about. Telling that some people just don't get that, they think they can use it as a club. Does not work, as it should not work.

[Bad Thoughts]

63. As Sec. of State, Clinton was more powerful than almost all of them

And given that the list includes many who inherited power, it is not reflective of what women achieve by their merits.

[athena]

157. So an unfair advantage is OK if you're male but not if you're female?

Are you suggesting that men have achieved almost-total dominance through merit alone? If we had true equality, half of the male leaders of state in the world would not have had their positions of power. But we're supposed to imagine that they got there through their own efforts, whereas we're supposed to be suspicious of the slightest advantage a woman might have had. In other words, if you're a woman, no matter what you do, there will always be an asterisk next to your name in history books.

Yet another example of the double standard we see here so often.

[Bad Thoughts]

163. This isn't Royalty Underground or Free Feudality

This is DEMOCRATIC Underground. Yes, I will discount ascending to the throne as both an accomplishment and a sign of character. I would take the women who were elected president and prime minister far above the list of those who were privileged from birth or who appointed by the crown every day.

[NWCorona]

66. I would love to have a female president

One of my hero's happens to be Shirley Chisholm. (please hit play)

I originally wanted Warren to run with Jill Stein as a backup.

I just have no faith in Hillary.

[closeupready]

69. So what. If Elizabeth had wanted it, it would have been SO her race

to lose.

Hillary was always the wrong candidate, is now, and will always be.

We'll have a Madam President when we have the right candidate.

[StevieM]

93. Well, the wrong candidate is on her way to the nomination, at least according to

the pledged delegate count.

So I hope you will vote for her if she is the nominee.

I agree that Elizabeth Warren would have been a strong candidate, but she chose not to run.

Maybe she will be president one day, and I look forward to supporting her if she is ever our nominee.

[Vote2016]

85. Did the voters in those counties have to compromise their values to nominate someone who mocks

the progressive values they hold dear or did they get the option of voting for a female candidate who also shares their beliefs?

[okasha]

97. Liberia and the Cherokee Nation should also be on that list.

[Bad Thoughts]

112. How many were elected heads of state?

Or are you suggesting that the United States, like most of these countries, should just coronate?

[Jitter65]

113. Just for current matters. Hillary's campaign employee more women at the top and more overall. nt

[Splinter Cell]

137. We need responsible leaders.

Voting for a terrible candidate because we haven't had a president with female genitalia is idiotic.

[athena]

138. No one is voting based on their genitalia

except perhaps men who can't stand the idea of a female president.

To those of us who support Hillary, she would be a much more reliable leader than Bernie, who can't seem to control his anger:

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/anger-management-sanders-fights-for-employees-except-his-own/Content?oid=2834657

[Splinter Cell]

140. Bullshit.

What is the point of this thread? Also, it's clear that her gender is a huge driving force in her support, because it sure can't be her quality as a candidate, which is laughable.

[beam me up scottie]

147. LMAO! You dragged out that old hit piece from a fired staffer?

You think that hasn't been posted and debunked dozens of times already? Seriously?

And do you really want us to dig through the Clinton's past looking for former associates who want to get back at them? I'm sure I could find plenty of character witnesses who would say ALL KINDS of nasty things about them if I wanted to but I'm not someone who digs through the trash looking for opposition research, it's too sleazy.

she would be a much more reliable leader than Bernie, who can't seem to control his anger:

Based on gossip from pissed off ex-employees, you are so funny.

[DAMANgoldberg]

144. Brazil

Dilma Rousseff, current {keyword} President of Brazil
essentially most of the government down there is under investigation, may not make the Rio games in her current state. Source: @ajplus YouTube video report that I haven't figure out how to link to.

[Betty Karlson]

146. When did France ever have a female head of state? Your list is way incorrect.

Last edited Wed Mar 30, 2016, 04:31 AM - Edit history (1)

All its kings were subject to the salic system of male primogeniture (no women allowed even if there were no male descendents available), the first republic was sausage fest, as was the first empire, as was the monarchy restauration, as was the constitutional monarchy, was was the second republic, as was the second empire -

Third Republic saw women gaining the right to vote but none of them became president.

Vichy régime? - nope, still all men

Fourth republic: you guessed it, male presidents again.

Fifth republic: military man (1958-1968), man of the arts (1968-1975), aristocratic man (1975-1982), man with a past (1982-1995), man without opposition (1995-2007), man with bling-bling and trophy-wife (2007-2012), and since 2012: MAN.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

148. It has had a female Prime Minister but she was not the Head of State

I think the OP may have been confused. The Prime Minister is the head of the government but not the head of state. Same with Ukraine, which is also listed here. Probably a few others on the list too.

The Prime Minister in question was Edith Cresson (1991-92).

[Betty Karlson]

151. Yes, the OP seems a jumble of confusion.

Cresson, by the way, was deeply corrupt - hardly someone women can be proud of.

[tralala]

149. I wonder about Greece, too

[Betty Karlson]

153. Probably in the Pelasgian era, they had some female heads of state.

The myths surrounding Theseus and Agamemnon suggest as much. Although it could be argued that Greece wasn't Greek yet at that time, since the Ionians and Dorians were still horse-riding tribes in the Balkans ...

[ucrdem]

154. Regencies. Including Catherine de Medici's. nt

[Betty Karlson]

155. Regencies are invariably discounted, as there was no constitutional provision for them.

You may as well call Cardinal de Mazarin a head of state, since he was, at the time, effective head of the executive.

[pugetres]

152. Clinton sure wouldn't be setting a precident in regards to a Female Head of State.

And, she wouldn't be the worst female Head of State elected. There have been much more horrible choices made over the course of history.

Thank you so much for the reality check.

[muriel_volestrangler]

158. I think you mean 'head of government'

because I can't think of a female head of state for France, either in the royalist or republican eras (claims by Mary I or Elizabeth I don't count).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_monarchs

[Betty Karlson]

159. See response # 146 / by the way: what about the Dutch?

female heads of state between 1890 and 2013, but never a female head of government.

[muriel_volestrangler]

160. Yeah, and with the other differences people have seen (Argentina, Ireland ...)

it looks pretty clear this was someone's 'head of government' list they copied and didn't understand. I suspect Germany hasn't had a female Head of State either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_presidents

Oh, arguably it did - Sabine Bergmann-Pohl was acting head of state in East Germany in the 6 months before unification. I never knew that. But the point is that the German Head of State is the ceremonial President, not the Chancellor who holds real power.

[Betty Karlson]

161. Maybe so, but the Holy Roman Empire has had plenty of female heads of states

at the level of its constituent states (no empresses, because that wasn't allowed).

[99Forever]

168. If gender is your top priority, you are a sexist.

I have no interest in a politician's genitals only their history on policy and more importantly their integrity and honesty.

[BreakfastClub]

170. No, that is not true. Men have been voting for men since the beginning of democracy.

That is why there are almost all men in charge. Duh. It's time for women, and having a democratic woman in the WH WILL change everything for women. Everything.

[99Forever]

171. Bullshit.

Voting based on gender is the very definition of sexist.

Own it.

[Art_from_Ark]

169. Yugoslavia never had a female head of state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_of_Yugoslavia

[Kentonio]

175. I think they mean..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milka_Planinc

[Art_from_Ark]

177. OK, I see.

[jfern]

174. Lets elect a Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir and not a Margaret Thatcher

[Califonz]

176. Were they all corporate shills too?

Just asking.

[EdwardBernays]

178. The reason I love Margaret Thatcher

Is her gender.

The same goes for Indira Gandhi.

[Gwhittey]

179. How many

On this list got over $150 million in "legal" bribes from same people that almost destroyed world economy in 2008?