2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThom Hartmann said he was wrong about Bernie or Busters
Prior to today, he's been calling them idiots. Now says a large portion of them (obviously, no one on DU) have not been engaged in politics until Bernie came along with his Progressive message.
Just started discussion now.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)athena
(4,187 posts)I'm sure the right-wingers will love it come general-election time!
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)hopeforchange2008
(610 posts)BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)And what better people to support than those who want nothing but to do just that? After all, the SCOTUS hangs in the balance and we can't have a Democrat in the White House or a Democratic Senate! Think 2000, and the true reason the PTB wanted Bush in the White House. Then remember how the Roberts Court gutted the VRA, ruled in favor of Citizens United, stopped States from being required to accept expanded Medicaid, etc., etc.
https://twitter.com/CoreyRobin/status/707576881869144066
dogman
(6,073 posts)Take the Party back, nothing wrong with that. The GOPers have been fleeing the insanity in their Party and trying to mold the Democratic Party into their image.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Or do you refute that?
The Democratic Party is NOT and has NEVER BEEN the Green Party or Socialist Party. It's the Democratic Party that's evolved over time and, thanks in no small part to President Clinton and especially President Obama, has gone in warp speed forward.
What you appear to want is to turn the Democratic Party into the Green or Socialist Party. Not. Going. To. Happen.
instead of wasting your time trying to make something into something it's never been, why not get out the vote for Greens or Socialists and leave the Democratic Party well alone? Fund raise for Green and/or Socialist candidates on the local, State, and Federal level. You now have the power and the people and the money. Hop to it! And please take Bernie with you.
dogman
(6,073 posts)Obama is a corporatist. Corporations have never done better. Warp speed to the third way, we need to get back to the people.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Therefore it is fitting that we lead off in this examination of the barrage of liberal criticism faced by President Roosevelt with quotes from the most famous (or infamous) detractor to his left, and perhaps the biggest threat to his presidency, Senator and Governor Huey Pierce Long of Louisiana:
About the New Deal in general, Long said:
But Long was not the only demogogue taking shots at Roosevelt from the left. There was also the radio priest Father Charles Coughlin, who like Long was especially bitter about the way he perceived Roosevelt had let the bankers who caused the Depression off the hook:
Sound familiar to you, dogman? The (complain) game is the same. Only the actors have changed.
dogman
(6,073 posts)But corporations and their supporters have been clawing back. It would be nice to see the people represented again.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)to the rest of the country. His hard-fought-for policies have helped tens of millions of Americans already. You know? The people who are part of the 65+ million who chose to re-elect him instead of voting for some third-party candidate to replace him?
dogman
(6,073 posts)He is still a corporatist though.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)And he's no more a, um, corporatist as Bernie is.
dogman
(6,073 posts)After he was elected to the Senate, he was asked by the people of Illinois to help fight the Com Ed rate hikes. He told them that he was in Washington now and that was a local matter. Of course when he set up his Presidential campaign he had the CEO of Com ED as his finance chair. I don't think Bernie would do that.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Just to keep things in perspective.
Understand, also, that Devine is paid a whopping $810k a month, so you know how important he is to the campaign (Jeff Weaver is only paid $9,900 p/month).
So let's disperse with the purity politics. Bernie won't win it.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)Get real. And greens, socialists, et all are only labels. Look at the issues and forget labels. They mean nothing.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)in the best interest of the country and our diverse people. Ranting about issues means nothing if you don't put teeth behind it. Those teeth is Congress. Without Congress, nothing gets done. I'm sure you've seen the truth in that since Republicans took control of the House in 2010, thanks to the purging of BlueDogDems.
If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for everything. Sage words to live by.
As for the Chained CPI...did it get through Congress? No? Move on.
timmymoff
(1,947 posts)We would rather choose right and wrong. You are choosing wrong. We won't aid you in your efforts.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)Hillary ain't no FDR.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)protect the most vulnerable members of this society? Let's see, Obama after promising NOT to have 'committees' which he said in the campaign, were merely assembled to 'run rings around the Constitution' (his exact words) appointed the Deficit Committee and put on it some of the worst, most greedy, Corporatists from the far right, AND placed 'on the table' for their benefit, SOCIAL SECURITY! Wow, I remember the shock when he first appointed that committee, then the double shock when I saw who had appointed to it, and third, when he placed in front of them SS.
The ONLY reason why that Committee didn't privatize SS, the dream of the right for so long, was because of the enormous BACKLASH that was RELENTLESS from advocacy groups across the nation.
And when Simpson called Veterans 'no longer patriots' for taking their benefits, hundreds of thousands of Americans demanded that he be removed from the committee, but Obama ignored them.
Please do not use that old FDR falsehood. We've seen way too often and shouldn't even be seeing it on a supposed Democratic forum.
The closest thing to FDR we've seen in our lifetimes, is Bernie Sanders. But that is precisely why the Corporate Dems do not like him, they sure are not fond of FDR and yet, he remains the most popular president today.
You would think Democrats would be proud of that.
Actually DEMOCRATS are proud of it.
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)Your words above. Am I wrong?
dogman
(6,073 posts)My problem is with Third-way Dems. My post was about the highlighted portion of that post. I didn't see Obama mentioned in it.
BeyondGeography
(39,351 posts)He gets lumped into that category a lot here. We can be very hard on us.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)I was amazed at how quickly he launched investigations into Bush-era war crimes, and turned Wall Street upside-down to punish the people who caused the worst economic calamity since 1929. And then, he cancelled the drone program saying that we have no right to summarily assassinate people, especially Americans without due process....
Oh, wait...
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)He's not and never has been a peacenick nor a Green Party member. He's a Democrat. You want a Green Party president? Go get one, fund him/her, and canvass for him/her. Want a Socialist for president? Same spiel.
Stop trying to turn the Democratic Party into a Party it's never been and will never be. It's not gonna happen. Sorry.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)The Dems have been moving right since Carter. And the reason they have continued so far to the right that people can make specious arguments about how "progressive" the party is these day, is because people keep making excuses such as this.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)And even the most hateful Republican will admit that President Obama has been a Progressive (hence the 53+ votes to repeal ObamaCare).
People who subscribe to the "better to have two birds in the bush than one in the hand" are not progressive. They're ideologues.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)beltanefauve
(1,784 posts)Very telling.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Come join me!
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 5, 2016, 06:30 PM - Edit history (1)
Holder? Wall Street's top defense atty
Summers?
Rubin?
Bill Daley?
Emanuel?
Duncan? Head of charter school movement
Geithner?
Clinton? Bad trade policy and FA judgment (Iraq and Libya)
Ron Kirk? TPP
I called "Bullshit!" on the Obama admin shortly after he won the GE and started surrounding himself with Rubinites. But to your claim, "Obama is the most Progressive president since (FDR)," I say the bar is very, very low.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)those horrid cabinet members.
But you know them so why should I?
Once again, the Democratic Party IS NOT the Green Party or the Socialist Party. Stop trying to turn it into something IT IS NOT.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)doesn't float. People hear "Obama Progressive" and "Clinton Progressive" but don't do their due diligence. They here Hillary wants "More of the same." To me, that means more Goldman Sachs and Wall Street attorneys. And she claims there's no way to prove she's influenced by Wall Street money when that's the only world she knows.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)brimstone preachers go? Yeah, he's entrancing. But, personally, I don't care for those types of preachers. And I and 2.5 million more (and counting) people have most certainly done our due diligence, and we find Bernie horribly lacking.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)I can't imagine why someone would think that's a Bad Thing, unless they are a conservative in Dem clothing
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)and, apparently, it IS a bad thing. Were it a good thing, the Green Party or Socialist Party would've defeated and replaced the Democratic Party LONG AGO. They haven't.
Stop trying to make the Democratic Party into the Green or Socialist Party. Join the Greens and Socialists and fund raise for them; canvass for them; find strong Greens and Socialists to run against Republicans and Democrats in all races from local to Federal. Work at that.
We'll see who wins.
The Democratic Party is doing fine and moving forward incrementally - just as over 65 million people wanted in 2012 and what 2.5 million more voters in the current Democratic Party want now.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)My personal pet peeves take a backseat.
azmom
(5,208 posts)She'll get things done, but they won't be progressive.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)maybe it needs to be gutted.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Right?
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)since then, especially under President Clinton and more so under President Obama. And it's far better than it was before the CRA. So yes, I know the Democratic Party from back then isn't the one we have today.
But the Democratic Party has never been the Green Party nor the Socialist Party, either. And it appears that many Bernie supporters are trying to make it so.
How about...not.
How about, instead of "gutting the Democratic Party", Bernie supporters start their own? You now see that you can fund raise in the millions per month, you have many candidates you can recruit (some are here on DU) and you'll get that Party you so long for.
The Democratic Party isn't and will never be the ultraLiberal's perfect Party. It just can't be. So why not support your own Party and finally get it off the ground to go head to head with the Democratic and Republican Party?
pangaia
(24,324 posts)UltraLiberal?
"You now see that...." YOU? Who is you? ME?
gutting ?
Green Party?
Socialist Party?
perfect party?
What in the world are you talking about?
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)When they were for the little people first. Now they throw out platitudes and actively work against our interests
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)islandmkl
(5,275 posts)you never were involved with the Democratic Party before its DLC/Third Way 'evolution'...
it's no wonder your interpretation of 'progressive' is so rightward...
you have no background in Democratic Party core principles...the ones jettisoned since 1988 except to pander for votes...
your professed timeline is all the proof needed to refute your allegations and conclusions...
you can have your Third Way party...enjoy it while it lasts because its end has begun...as a Democratic Party entity, anyway...
good news: the Republicans are making room to absorb center-right folks...
lastone
(588 posts)when you should be complaining about HRC's ties to CORP $, me thinks the panama papers will weave their way to her front door. what will you say then?
dana_b
(11,546 posts)the big issues that Hillary herself has been involved in - like supporting her buddies on WS!
athena
(4,187 posts)Please be specific. Otherwise, it sounds too much like the usual baseless smears and lies.
As for the Panama papers, there is no mention of Hillary in them. So how is this not just another baseless smear?
dana_b
(11,546 posts)The Panama FTA pushed for by Obama and Clinton, watchdog groups said, effectively barred the United States from cracking down on questionable activities. Instead of requiring concessions of the Panamanian government on banking rules and regulations, combating tax haven abuse in Panama could violate the agreement. Should the U.S. embark on such an endeavor, it could be exposed to fines from international authorities.
The FTA would undermine existing U.S. policy tools against tax haven activity, warned consumer watchdog group Public Citizen at the time, saying the agreement would encourage corporations to thwart any U.S. efforts to combat financial secrecy. The group also noted that U.S. government contractors, as well as major financial firms supported by taxpayer bailouts, stood to gain from the trade deal's provisions that could make it harder to crack down on financial secrecy.
---------------------
So yeah, both she and the President pushed for this agreement even though they were told that it would hurt efforts to combat offshore accounts secrecy/illegal activities. I guess they just didn't care.
lastone
(588 posts)Athena, what do you have to say now?
dana_b
(11,546 posts)he's a smart man
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Right now, my arms are folded as I watch her lie her ass off on a daily basis about my candidate. Sigline stands.
athena
(4,187 posts)What you don't seem to realize is that you will need her more than she will need you.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)to all of the standard lines: I'll make Trump the President, I'll be responsible for Ted Nugent being on the Supreme Court. Blah, blah, blah. I'd like to point out that no one on this planet, save one, can do anything about my position. The one person who can change my mind seems to be functioning as a compulsive liar, so she isn't making real big inroads with me. I won't be coerced--I have a nasty habit of getting self-destructive when I feel coerced, as in, maybe I'm going down, but I'll have some say in the way that happens and in who goes down with me. That's a general statement about me; it's just how I operate. I convey it to you only so that you'll hopefully see that I'm utterly unreachable via coercion. Thanks.
athena
(4,187 posts)I don't care who you vote for. I don't even know you. What I posted is the simple truth. It's pretty ridiculous to use the word "coerce" to refer to someone posting on an internet message forum.
It's funny that Bernie supporters think Hillary "needs" them and seem to expect her to personally beg them for their vote. That's why I posted what I did: to point out that if Hillary loses the election, she will go off and live happily with her family, knowing she has spent her life working hard for her country. All the Bernie supporters who brag about their refusal to vote for her, on the other hand, will have to live with the policies of President Trump, which will probably hurt them a lot more than they will hurt Hillary.
It's happened once already in 2000. Some of us learned something from that experience. Some of us didn't, or were too young to notice.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)This is a website where it's common for people to argue their point of view in hopes that it holds sway. Persuasion turns to coercion when you attempt to dangle guilt/consequence over your target's head. Anyway, the persuasion/coercion point is moot, since I'm not swayed by either. But do be up-front with yourself about what you're trying to accomplish.
As to Hillary, I'm reasonably certain we'll never personally know one another. So she needn't address me personally. I've strengthened my voice by adding it to a huge coalition of other voices. She knows what we want, and she's not willing to concede any of those things. So let's do this thing; lets get it on and see who survives.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)1- Your first sentence is the only argument Hillary disciples have.
2- The stunning, demeaning, insulting arrogance of your second statement says it all. That IS Hillary Clinton.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Try again!
peacebird
(14,195 posts)She means none of the progressive stuff she has been mouthing. Bernie or Busters will not vote for Hillary. They will write in Bernie, or vote Jill Stein, or some may stay home.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)and maybe even childish.
And, they dont understand politics or government, AT ALL.
It isnt an all or nothing situation, EVER, in politics.
Neither side of the argument EVER gets it ALL.
dogman
(6,073 posts)People who love people are childish. Got it, no we can't.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)dogman
(6,073 posts)I can vote GOP lite. I voted for Bill. I sure would love to vote for an organic Democrat over a corporate hybrid though.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)Resolve 90% of this problem by requiring all elections be public funded.
dogman
(6,073 posts)And a National Holiday strictly for voting or total access to the ballot.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)I would like to buy a microwave built in America by union workers.
I would like to buy a Hi Def 4K flat-screen also made in America by union workers.
But we have a long way to go before that can happen.
choie
(4,107 posts)it was also trying to appeal to the conservative Dems in the South.
Jackie Wilson Said
(4,176 posts)WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)GeorgiaPeanuts
(2,353 posts)It looks hopeless and many feel like Sanders is a last hope, that if he cannot defeat the system how will anyone succeed in doing so.
I am one of those Bernie or Bust types
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)It's hard to get excited to vote for a Democrat who will offshore your jobs, just to prevent the election of a Republican who will offshore your jobs.
AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)There are a lot of people who have been completely alienated from politics due to the suffocating layer of lies, deceptions, and corruption - Bernie, and only Bernie, brings these people back into play.
HughLefty1
(231 posts)Why would I give a crap about HRC? She's in bed with the corporatists and clearly doesn't give a crap about the working class. I don't see much difference between her and the Bushes, Kasich, and countless other DNC/GOP elites. I guess I'd have to vote for her against a complete sicko like Cruz but otherwise I really don't have any motivation to get behind her.
djean111
(14,255 posts)Grandson says voting for Hillary would be voting for the same old shit, and that it looks, from outside the political bubble, like the GOP does not have a whole lot different in mind. War, fracking, the TPP, college. Stuff like that.
That's on Hillary and the DNC and on what has actually happened over the years, not a tattered "platform" that gets ignored at will. They look stuff up. This stuff affects them personally. They don't look to Carville or Maddow or David Brock.
BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)Hartmann asked a Bernie or Bust caller on early what would it take? The caller said Bernie's platform, the whole thing. Then a couple of minutes ago, Hartmann brought up Bernie's platform and said it was basically a combination of Eisenhower from 1956 and FDR. But here's the problem, I don't care if Hillary said I'll adopt Bernie's entire platform (which she would never do), because she would only do it to get elected and then completely ignore it after taking office.
I was just watching video from the 2008 primary debates this morning and watched both Obama and Clinton tell Tim Russert that within 6 months of taking office that they would renegotiate NAFTA with Canada and Mexico. Obama has been in office for 7 years. Did he ever say or do anything about NAFTA that I missed? All I can recall is more free trade agreements with Columbia and Panama (and there are others I'm forgetting) and the push for the TPP.
appalachiablue
(41,103 posts)BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)But he still thinks if Hillary just picks the right VP and doesn't keep insulting young voters the Democratic Party and Bernie supporters don't feel like the race was stolen, Hillary and the DNC can bring all these new Bernie people (not just young voters, but previously disengaged voters) right into the Democratic big tent. How can he be this clueless and realize that there is 25 years of Hillary's record, including all the flip flops, the war mongering, the lies, the big money, etc. out there that anybody can find in 5 minutes? How does he think people who are attracted by Bernie's movement will look at Hillary and say OK, I can go for that?
Hartmann seems to think there is 10 feet of space between Bernie and Hillary and then 100 feet from Hillary to the nearest Republican candidate. I think there is 100 feet of space between Bernie and Hillary and then 10 feet of space or less between Hillary and the nearest Republican candidate.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Cal33
(7,018 posts)AgerolanAmerican
(1,000 posts)The only daylight between Clinton and the Republicans is a bunch of mealy-mouthed rhetoric we all know she doesn't really believe in or care about any further than it furthers her ambition to power and wealth. Her priorities will not be any of the alleged differences between she and the GOP in social policy - they will be those things in which there is no daylight at all between she and the GOP: war and corporatism.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)From what I'm hearing there are plenty of long time voters that are fed up and not in the mood to fall in line in November.
Sarandon tried to tell them what she was hearing and they just attacked her rather than listening to her message.
BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)Hartmann was just talking with a woman who was having trouble bringing her husband in the fold and Hartmann said that's the Susan Sarandon argument and talked about it in a disparaging way.
dana_b
(11,546 posts)They think that it's just us here on DU. They couldn't be more out of touch.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)dana_b
(11,546 posts)I am surprised at Thom. I didn't realize that he was so willing to forgive such a pro corporate/war hawk Dem. Someone who has more in common with Reagan than FDR.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)with the Hillary's Victory Fund. They will not even want to belong to the local parties.
This is really a mess when we look at the future. I would not have a problem with a new party but we would all have to stick together in that new party or it would not have the numbers it needs to take over. It is easier to take over the existing party like the T-party did the Rs than it is to build from scratch.
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)islandmkl
(5,275 posts)he made the point, THE POINT, and Thom admitted he had not considered it until recently...
there are millions of people who ARE NOT DEMOCRATS, never were...so 'the Party' means nothing much to them...they are looking for leadership to get the country out of the mess they find themselves in...'the Party' has no inherent attraction for them as it has proven itself in the past 30 years to be as much a part of the problem as the Republicans...
there is a reason the 'Independent' sector is so huge...and why Democrats are going to suffer by not addressing the modern era of political participation...it may not all happen this year, but these young people and not-so-young progressives will continue to push and push back...
the concept of 'Party' sounds so archaic to many...what does it matter what the name is?...when it doesn't define anything beyond maintaining some aspect of the status quo...(D) over here, (R) over there...and very little changes...
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)litlbilly
(2,227 posts)my wife also. I am one of those people who owes allegiance to nobody. I voted for Barack Obama in the GE in 08 and 12 but I never voted in a primary before, this is the first time. I would bet a large number of Bernie supporters fall into this category and the dems, the dnc, and Hill know full well most of us would never even be here in the first place if not for Bernie's campaign. So those Hill shills comparing Bernie to Nader etc, its absolutely bullshit on its face.
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)Edit: Eugene office opened Saturday
merrily
(45,251 posts)have been engaged in politics and voting for Democrats. and only Democrats, for decades.
The business of calling Democrats who say they will not vote for Hillary, if she is the nominee, naive or Republican or whatever, is not just a zero as to party unity, but a definite minus. So is yelling "Supreme Court."
Give them something they can trust to vote FOR, without shaming them and MAYBE you'll get somewhere.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Sure, Sanders brought out people that would not have otherwise been engaged. But Hartmann neglects to contemplate the reason why. Any business that offers a free giveaway has lines out the door. Once the promotion is over, the people disappear as quickly as they showed up.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)to find out what the "Democrat" Party and especially Clinton, has to say to Bernie's supporters to get them to hang on one more time.
And when they find that out - they will simply SAY it.
Talk is cheap. SHow me.
The Head of the "Democrat" National committee has supported her corporate 300% Loan Shark buddies over the people
Obama just supported DWS after she sided with 300% loan Sharks, and, all of the utter failure she has been for the Democratic rank-and file. I'm sure the Corporate DLC, Blue Dog, Third Way Oligarch crowd thinks she's been doing great. But Most of us, not.
Obama put Social Security on the Chopping block gave us the Republican version of Health insurance reform, and is attempting to end US government sovereignty, all the way down to the local level with TPP.
The list is huge and and goes back decades, all the way to Bill.
If the cabal currently running the Democrat Party, including Hillary, tells you they (all of a sudden) support Bernie's platform (and hey "we always did, you peons just didn't notice" and we promise to go forward with it (just vote for Hillary THIS time) - Who's going to believe it given - History?
Talk is cheap, especially for this crowd. Show me. And by the way, it ain't gonna happen THIS time. The Democratic Party that I grew up with was sold to the Corporate elite and has become the "Democrat" Party. That will not change easily and sure as hell will not change by June. The Party as it stands, needs a total overhaul. Think that's going to happen any time soon? I don't.
You want me to believe? Earn it. Start taking actions that Prove to me that you can be trusted and that you support the rest of us. It took you decades to create this sewer, you can't change that with talk.
BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)He can't be as stupid about this stuff as he is pretending to be.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)it's that kum bi ya thing. I think it clouds the judgement sometimes.
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)She was in tears, raking Hartmann over the coals and explaining that nobody believes Hillary and nobody is going to, that we know what she is. She was basically trying to tell him to wake up.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)got me was the 'older' lady who said at her age she will not hold her nose again because she does not know if she has another election in her lifetime and I totally empathize and agree with her. I'm 62.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)From my point of view, he seems to get an idea in his head and is very hard to change. This was very refreshing, because he has been really harsh on people.
I wish the Hillary supporters would listen. Most of these people are people who have been uninvolved in anything political and Bernie has gotten them involved and enthused. If you look at it from the perspective Thom is now seeing them, he is trying to see how these people can be brought into the party instead of calling them names and turning them off completely.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)as much as trying a new angle.
and don't get me wrong, I've listened to, and appreciated Hartmann on almost a daily basis since Vermont.
I've learned a ton from him and, like many, it's where I learned about Bernie. I like the guy.
I just find his "support" of Bernie disappointing and left-handed.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Dr. Frankenstein Complex
2banon
(7,321 posts)in the early part of the last decade when Air America was broadcasting in San Francisco.
Based on the nature of their conversations, I'm surprised to read here he's been calling out Bernie supporters as "idiots".
Seems rather antithetical to his professed perspective and values at the time. What changed?
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)And W Bush...
It's scary to some, that some people actually can get into office, no matter how off the wall it seems .. I remember hearing. An actor? For President? No... and then... No, seriously, that guy? W? Nah. America will never let it happen.
I suspect it's more fear than anything that influences Thom's thinking on this issue. I don't agree with him, but I understand it.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Today he said he has a better understanding of Bernie or Busters and to characterize them as idiots is wrong. He's endorsed Bernie from Day 1 and the only host to have Bernie on his show since Bernie began his campaign.
islandmkl
(5,275 posts)with Hillary...
he is pretty slow to hear that, for many of us, that isn't 'the Party' that we want to continue to support in its current form...
and that, for many, many more, 'the Party' offers no solution as an entity, while they see someone like Bernie as beginning to offer solutions to core problems facing America...
in reality, we all had a hand in getting to this point...which means we can all have a hand in getting things corrected...
Thom is right about 'get involved locally' to influence the Party...however, as a long-time listener to him and someone who generally agrees with most of his principles and views, he seems to have this underlying fear of tearing things apart to get the abscess drained and the wound healed...
his optimism is somewhat tempered by feathering the status quo one more time...something many of us have done one too many times...
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)onecaliberal
(32,786 posts)Or the fact that she is condescending entitled and arrogant. She will say anything but t stands only for money.