2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumThe DU Hillary people have finally convinced me
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Bobbie Jo (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).
I may just sit out this election, first in my long life.
We may need a Trump Presidency before the majority of Americans wake up and throw out all the bums that have put us where we find ourselves. Maybe it does have to get really dark before the light.
We will not survive by doing the same things over and over again.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)... that sentencing people to four or eight years of massive increases in suffering is justifiable, because of the 'hope' of something better coming of it.
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)However DU in GDP primaries pretty much has 50 threads with every talking point imaginable against Hillary Clinton and 10 pro-Hillary threads and the Sanders supporters are upset that Hillary supporters are mean.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Hillary-hate is rampant
artislife
(9,497 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)Take a look at the blood on her hands, the money to her "foundation" and the deals she has made at the expense of the planet.
She is not a good choice.
At all.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)Bettie
(16,086 posts)Pure and simple.
People who don't consume a lot of news see "Clinton" and vote for the name they recognize.
Same on the other side with Trump.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)and these simple folk you mention are not the ones to show up at primaries
but you knew that
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)even cruz drew more votes than bush - and kasich
Buddyblazon
(3,014 posts)Trump name is currently bigger than Bush. How many TV shows is Trump currently on or been on in the last few years?
You may want it to be different, Dan, but it's not.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)and no way trump's name is bigger than the bush name here in Florida where I live
Buddyblazon
(3,014 posts)Nobody outside of Florida gives two shits about Florida. I'm talking about the entire country.
RKP5637
(67,102 posts)reflexive thought processes and go for the brand names. Quite sad.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Bettie
(16,086 posts)frankly, a bigger name.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)RKP5637
(67,102 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)bad memories of his brother are still strong
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Broward
(1,976 posts)If so, you're contributing to the ongoing suffering and things getting worse for most Americans.
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)Thank you for proving it is the exact opposite.
Broward
(1,976 posts)revbones
(3,660 posts)Bernie can't get anything done. Hillary can only get small things done, but Trump will destroy the world with everything he's able to get done.
TM99
(8,352 posts)Seeinghope
(786 posts)The Climton Foundation received Billions of dollars in donations from countries while Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was approving arms contracts to those same countries. You don't see a problem with that? Well then how about the donations from Russia while Russia was scoring a great deal of getting uranium from the United States while Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State?
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)It doesn't seem to bother them. How? I cannot fathom.
randr
(12,409 posts)Response to randr (Reply #112)
geek tragedy This message was self-deleted by its author.
Chezboo
(230 posts)unless there is some part of neoliberalism that's fuzzy for her supporters. Hillary may win office by talking left, but once in the WH she will readily sacrifice the party's base to stay true to the neoliberal plan.
CrowCityDem
(2,348 posts)For either Democrat, the status quo is the bare minimum, and we'll be trying to move forward. If a Republican gets elected, the status quo is the pipe dream best case scenario. If the other candidate's voters can't see the difference, I feel sorry for them.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)No thanks.
We do not need to move forward in the same direction.
We need to change directions.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)MineralMan
(146,284 posts)Good luck with that...
FarPoint
(12,316 posts)I will vote for Hillary Clinton as the Democratic Nominee. Sanders, well...I fail to see him as a Democrat. He, himself does not desire to work with the Democratic Party, just ride the bus.So, I can not see a vote in my future for Sanders unless I move to Vermont.
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)#ShesWithWallStreet
If Hillary cared about the General Election, she would SUSPEND HER CAMPAIGN!
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Disaster Capitalism run amok, oligarchy completed, signed and sealed.
Human beings sacrificed to the greed a few.
THAT is your tradition and history.
No thanks.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)That's what many said when Reagan became President and when Bush became President in 2000.
One thing history has shown is that when the right wing wins elections it moves the country further to the right and Democratic candidates as well.
This is not a country that embraces revolution, but rather evolution.
timmymoff
(1,947 posts)get moved more towards the right? Our biggest losing strategy has been moving to the right. We have a near equal division in our party that the media is just recently reporting. We are far better off shifting back to the left then we are staying in this centrist at best position. I have no numbers on this but would guess that as we continue to move right in hopes of gaining crossover votes, we lose votes on the other end by people dropping out and being fed up with the same stuff happening regardless of who you choose. In math some of you so often choose to shout about, gaining 3-5% on the right , while losing 6-8 % on the left is a losing strategy. We need to stop being the "me too" candidates and more like the bold candidates. Status quo isn't bold nor inspiring.
virgogal
(10,178 posts)The party has swung more to the left.
bvf
(6,604 posts)He did a pretty fine job of dragging the country rightward as well. Think, "the era of big government is over." Think mass incarceration. Shit, just think.
And he managed to sully the Oval Office like no other "Democrat" in modern times. Think about that, too.
Think about why Gore had to keep him at arm's length during the 2000 campaign. Had it not been for Clinton's astounding ratings on untrustworthiness and dishonesty, he might have made it more difficult for Bush to steal that election.
Clinton belongs right up there with Reagan and both Bushes, and I don't want him within a fucking mile of the White House as anything but a perpetually horny tourist, ever again.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)And to compare him to Reagan and the Bushes.
Never thought I'd see the day.
I had no idea so many "Dems" hated Bill Clinton.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)when he says something good about HRC
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)This is all positioning for casting the blame when Hillary loses the general.
They want you to be discouraged and disgusted, that's why they make themselves so odious.
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)I assumed if Hillary loses it would be 1 million I told you so all over the internet but the secret plot to win the primary and lose the general election to make Bernie look bad makes sense now
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You game out every scenario to the best of your ability and plan your contingency strategies accordingly.
Clausewitz said that war is just an extension of politics by other means and 90% of war is planning for contingencies.
Trenzalore
(2,331 posts)As evidenced on what is happening on the other side this primary I envision them being emboldened.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Think Nader, never mind Gore couldn't win his home state, his Droopy Dawg VP pick who wound up at the RNC promoting John McCain and the corrupt SCOTUS, focus on Nader....
Marr
(20,317 posts)Whenever a conservative Democrat loses, the left is blamed-- it doesn't matter if the data supports the claim or not. They're still arguing that it was the left that cost the party so heavily in 2012, for instance, even though all the data shows that it was their precious 'moderates' who didn't show up.
So when they lose, the script is, "See? We can't depend on the left-- we must move rightward".
When they win, the script is, "See? Our 'pro-business' approach is popular. We must continue moving rightward".
Even sadder -- the notion "conservative Democrat". Ought to be an oxymoron, but isn't.
We true progressives need to take back the Democratic Party or leave it apparently.
woolldog
(8,791 posts)Lay off for a week or two.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
daleanime
(17,796 posts)for a Hillary presidency.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)And since Trump will never be the nominee, it's an empty threat.
randome
(34,845 posts)Only a selfish idiot roots for others to suffer.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
daleanime
(17,796 posts)who look to profit from the death of others?
randome
(34,845 posts)Which profited Vermont, by the way. Still, I don't hold that against him. Why can't you try to see the larger picture, too?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
Response to daleanime (Reply #70)
geek tragedy This message was self-deleted by its author.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Dem2
(8,168 posts)oasis
(49,370 posts)If Republicans have their way, SCOTUS will become an ultra right institution for the next 20 years.
It'll be dark alright.
artislife
(9,497 posts)Do you think they will fill it if a Dem gets in? There is no legal recourse to not filling it. They may drown the court in the bathtub like they wanted to do the government.
oasis
(49,370 posts)How long do you expect the American public to tolerate the senate's misbehavior?
Skid Rogue
(711 posts)This is a completely not snarky question.
Are there any historical examples of that tactic actually working?
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Those in the Bernie or Bust clan are actively recruiting.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)It's sickening.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)the Democratic Party decided to run the extreme leftist John Kerry in 2004.
Didn't they?
timmymoff
(1,947 posts)running as the "me too" candidate, along with his poor performances, managed to have around 250,000 democrats vote for Bush. Often when you need to look for blame the mirror is the first place. This is what we Sander's supporters are stating. Being closer to them alienates more than you gain on the right.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)KPN
(15,642 posts)Frankly, I don't think Hillary can win the GE, but admit I'm biased against her. If she does, I believe she will be a one term President because she will have moved significantly right from what she campaigned on -- that's what I expect based on past record. The excuse that "compromise is the only way she could make progress on important issues" doesn't hold water with Bernie supporters now and won't then. Those who supported her in 2016, largely because of feeling held hostage by SCOTUS being at risk, will abandon her in 2020. And the DNC will "desperately strive" on.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)No, we don't.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Most of us outgrew that by the time we left grade school.
KPN
(15,642 posts)People will vote for what they think is best for the country. To many of us, a Democratic Party that is controlled unrelentingly by Third Wayers (read: sold out or never were Ds) is not what is best for the nation. Get over it!
Third Wayers like to juxtapose progressive idealism with centrist realism. Berners' disdain for today's Democratic establishment is just another reality you all will have to contend with. Fair enough?
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)And reality is something the Sanders supports have a problem grasping.
From the OP:
I may just sit out this election, first in my long life.
We may need a Trump Presidency before the majority of Americans wake up ...
What they've just said there is ... if Sanders isn't the nominee, I'm going to take my ball (vote) and stay home. Doesn't matter what the consequences are of that childish temper tantrum that they are having.
KPN
(15,642 posts)or didn't comprehend it. Probably the latter. Some may stay home, but many will seek another option, not just in 2016, but 2020 as well and beyond.
The Democratic Party is either going to start aggressively representing and standing up effectively for the working class, or not and lose its base. That's reality.
The argument: "accept this because its the best we can do" is finally being rejected by millions upon millions because that approach has failed for three-plus decades. Also reality.
Do you really think calling this perspective (which those who hold it do so with dead seriousness) a "childish temper tantrum" will achieve your end? You won't influence us with guilt trips when what inspires us is our conscience in the first place.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)but you didn't want to stick with that because it proves what I'm saying. And I'm still talking about the OP.
KPN
(15,642 posts)but discounting if not ignoring the reality.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)You're creating strawmen to prove I'm wrong ... which shows how disingenuous you are.
KPN
(15,642 posts)and will do what their conscience and conviction tells them. In this particular case, some Berners may vote for Hillary despite their misgivings, some may vote for someone else because of their misgivings, and some may choose not to support any of the candidates with their vote (sit it out) also because of their misgivings. All are legitimate. Yet you characterized it as not recognizing reality but instead behaving childishly by throwing a temper tantrum.
Your characterization is off base and ignores "reality". That is not a strawman. You are just flat out off base.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)Sitting out elections is an absurd reaction to snarky message board invective. Anonymous people in their jammies sipping coffee and being obnoxious to each other about Popes and emails and buses and Pinocchios should have zero impact on your real life, fresh air, sunshine, walkin' around activities.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and neither is saying we have to hit rock bottom before we climb back up.
like it or not, there are only two candidates running who are willing to drain the swamp...trump and sanders.
and one of them will be president.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Get real comfortable with the idea of saying "Madame President."
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)its not gonna happen. her time has come and gone
Codeine
(25,586 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)he tacitly admitted she committed a crime of negligence. but she didn't MEAN to. he had the opportunity to come out forcefully in defense of her on a network which was listening with both ears. he didn't do that. he said she didn't INTEND to jeapodarize ntl security. he did not say she DID NOT jeapordize natl security.
wishing it away isn't goin to make it so.....
LisaM
(27,800 posts)This seems to be skirting a pretty fine line.
Native
(5,939 posts)Zambero
(8,964 posts)Sorry, not an option.
KPN
(15,642 posts)The GOP is going to run Paul Ryan.
tabasco
(22,974 posts)Why do you think something good would result from a national meltdown?
Stupid post, stupid idea, and this post should be deleted for its imbecility.
Loudestlib
(980 posts)I've been told she doesn't need your vote.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)to have the luxury of being able to take that position.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...but I don't think Trump will be the Republican nominee. It's looking less like he'll have enough delegates to wrap it up. At that point it's open season and he's toxic enough that they go with Kasich or some other more palatable (for Republicans) option. At that point she's in BIG trouble...and all those Hillary supporters are going to look pretty foolish.
Paul Ryan's looking like the horse to beat as this point I think.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)shouldn't be decided by the manners of people on the Internet. They are poor all around.
KPN
(15,642 posts)democratic principles either.
BainsBane
(53,027 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 10, 2016, 01:18 PM - Edit history (1)
LGBT Americans what they get for refusing to vote as told. Strip away their rights and you can finally have the America you've dreamed of. Who cares about democracy anyway? People think they have a right to vote as they see fit and refuse to understand they are supposed to obey the self entitled.
Generations of presidents under a capitalist economy, and it only becomes problem when we have two Democrats, an African American followed by what may be the first woman president in US History. Yep, got to tear that "establishment" down and go back to the days when America was great, when people like us knew to stay in our place.
Cut the bullshit. The dark is the goal. People wish for a Trump presidency because that is the America they want.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]
handmade34
(22,756 posts)is one spoken by a voice of privilege... I have never missed a vote in my long lifetime and would never be controlled by someone's bad behavior... right now the concern is not so much which Democrat wins the White House, it is how many more Democrats/progressives we can put in local/state/federal offices and how long we (people understanding need for change/progress) will commit to helping that journey towards positive change... not voting is not an option if you care, if you are progressive, if you are moral, if you are honest...
I am a "DU Hillary" person who loves Bernie and his ideals but believes that Hillary Clinton is the best person for President right now... and I am a "DU Hillary" person who will continue the fight towards progressive change and not give up if my chosen candidate doesn't win... we all should be in this for the long haul... "one person a revolution does not make" it takes "the people" working long and hard and not giving up... we vote, we write, we make phone calls, we protest, we educate, we boycott, we refuse to cooperate with corruption, we help each other, we embrace each other, we think critically...
DookDook
(166 posts)Vote for any progressives that are on the ballot.
I wouldn't want to support any third-way candidates either.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)Umbral18
(105 posts)They get 4 more years to beat on her, and Democrats in general, and they have 4 years to fix the horrendous mess they've made of their party. It's a lose-lose situation.
TheFarseer
(9,319 posts)Rush Limbaugh is saved. The only losers for Republicans are bible humpers oh and rank and file with a job that can get outsourced/insourced. The big money people are fine with her AND conventional wisdom says the republican is even more likely to win the longer they are out of the White House.
katmondoo
(6,454 posts)Beacool
(30,247 posts)First of all, there's no one more vicious on this site that some of Sanders' supporters. This is mostly an anti-Hillary board. Yet, most of us wouldn't be so stupid as to sit out this election if Sanders became the nominee. I would vote for a turnip if it prevented Trump from becoming president.
blm
(113,040 posts)and many millions of people are dependent on their future rulings.
If you are in a safe blue state or permanent red state, your not voting won't matter - in swing states EVERY SINGLE VOTE MATTERS, and there is no luxury for us to indulge the personal.
stone space
(6,498 posts)The DU Hillary people have finally convinced me
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511697674
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
YOUR COMMENTS
> We may need a Trump Presidency
Advocate for a Trump Presidency on another site, not on DU.
Please hide.
JURY RESULTS
Someone else already alerted on this post before you alerted on it, and only the first alert was sent to a Jury. A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of the post on Sun Apr 10, 2016, 11:24 AM, and voted 2-5 to keep IT. Please note that even though your alert was not sent to a Jury, it has been forwarded to the Administrators who review all alerts.
Thank you.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)As for me? I'm voting for the Democrat.
The River
(2,615 posts)in the gutter, like the gambler who has to go bankrupt or
the junkie who's forced into rehab, this country doesn't seem
to be able to respond to anything but a full blown crisis before
it is willing to change.
Frankenstein food, lead filled water, polluted air, lack of healthcare.
The list goes on and on. Lady Liberty is being raped in the kitchen
but we won't get off the couch to help because "American Idol" is
on the idiot box. So be it.
I've "got mine" so I shouldn't care, but I do. I don't care about race, gender,
age or religion, I care about principles, honesty and character. If you care more
about breaking a glass ceiling than climate change, if you care more
about name recognition than income inequality, If you care more
about "Party" than principle, I won't help you in November.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I was thinking of something similar but you've said it better than I could have.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Too many are soul sick people who seem to take pleasure in cheering for the suppression of the vote and keeping common folks under the heel of the oligarchs, but this may be a reflection of the country. They are the inverse of Trump supporters, racist in their own way and willing to believe someone who plays on their biases rather than a candidate who advocates for true ethical and enlightened governance. It is the unfortunate consequence of karma that we will get the leader we deserve. It may be that we have to become slaves once again in order to relearn that harsh lesson too many Hillary supporters seem to have abandoned.
Your post shows the real danger of a Clinton candidacy, which could spawn a national sense of betrayal that would harm the country for decades.
I empathize with your sense of wanting to sit the election out, but I urge you to vote anyway. Cynicism is a hollow way to cope.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)That doesn't mean the judgement is correct, but it doesn't deserve the vitriol you're getting. One can arrive at this position with honest and thought-out reasoning, the same as one could arrive at the need to vote for the lesser short-term evil with the same. People on both sides of this argument could and should have a respectful dialogue, recognizing that there are profound voices in both camps.
Response to JCanete (Reply #81)
geek tragedy This message was self-deleted by its author.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)I firmly believe that. I'm not voting for Trump but I still agree with your assessment. I was just talking with a Hillary supporter about his post. In it he complains about the Independent vote and "why ?" they should get to vote because it ruins "His" life.
Ughh.
Same reason I can't stand Hillary, it's all about me, myself, and I. When I win as opposed to when we win.
Don't worry, the TPP will go along way towards ruining American lives, just be patient.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Thanks for the real life example.
Tarc
(10,476 posts)lostnfound
(16,170 posts)Trump or Hillary?
Trump is crazy and/or all over the map.
Hillary seems to have a certain ideology.
Please note: I am NOT expressing any support for that disgusting Neanderthal con man.
Just wondering how much of a hawk would he prove to be?
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,336 posts)It will take decades (if ever) to undo the damage those idiots have caused.
So, do what feels good to you, but I can't respect your position.
one_voice
(20,043 posts)by Bernie supporters.
I have a question. Supposing Bernie gets the nomination. Do you think he'll win in the GE if the Hillary people say eff that I'm not voting for him? Can he win without their votes?
An equivalent Hillary or bust movement?
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)Also, it seems most HRC supporters like Bernie. The same is not true in reverse.
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the smart answer.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Yurovsky
(2,064 posts)when HRC may be the most greedy, selfish, and pro-corporate candidates to ever run as a Democrat. Does she really need HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars at her disposal? Seriously? She couldn't live off combined Federal pensions of over $600k per year? Did she really need to take all that Wall Street cash, when Bernie has shown Democrats will get out their checkbook a to support a true progressive?
Please...
And for the record, Trump is a racist asshole, but I don't think he wants to outlaw abortion. JMHO. I think the bigger concern might be him running his mouth and starting a war unintentionally, which isn't any worse than HRC starting one on purpose (which she most likely will if past behavior is any clue).
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)IamMab
(1,359 posts)Vinca
(50,255 posts)DU was exactly the same way in 2008. The Hillary people were just as nasty and when she started tanking they all sounded like you. In the end, most voted for Obama. You can't take the crap on this site too seriously. Think of the future of things like abortion rights if Ted Cruz or Donald Trump appoints the next 3 Supreme Court justices. I also sometimes think people deserve what they get when they vote or don't vote and "maybe that will wake them up." But, in truth, there are people out there far more powerless than we are who need some protection. People die in GOP-led states where Medicaid hasn't been expanded. People are going hungry because food stamps are being cut. We can't let our wounded feelings rule our heads.
djean111
(14,255 posts)She, IMO, is not a Democrat, as I understand being a Democrat. I don't think I would like her SCOTUS appointments, either, or her foreign policy, or her Third Way attack on safety nets. This is no longer just a choice between two fairly similar Democrats.
Response to randr (Original post)
geek tragedy This message was self-deleted by its author.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)At the beginning of the race, 80 percent of the Democrats I knew were Sanders supporters who intended to vote for the nominee in November no matter who won.
Now, 90 percent are Sanders supporters and I'm in the minority who still plan to vote for our nominee no matter who it is. Jill Stein will set records if Hillary wins.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)RKP5637
(67,102 posts)salinsky
(1,065 posts)... and Jesus wept.
Renew Deal
(81,852 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)If Trump is elected because people didn't vote it is on them no one else
DanTex
(20,709 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)HERVEPA
(6,107 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Statement of Purpose
A forum for general discussion of the Democratic presidential primaries. Disruptive meta-discussion is forbidden.