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Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 03:48 PM Apr 2016

The US middle class is in the top 1% ....

of the world economically.

As liberals, shouldn't we be equally concerned about the other human beings on our planet?
Shouldn't we be willing to share the wealth and the jobs and the industries with other countries and peoples?

We have been very privileged...and like the silver spoon portion of our society, most of that good fortune has been an accident of birth rather than something we have earned.

Trade agreements in spite of their ugly local side effects are good for the worlds populations.

The problem is not disruption due to trade agreements, it's the failure of the social safety net including job training and housing/food assistance.

We shouldn't be trade isolationists any more than we should be political isolationist.








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The US middle class is in the top 1% .... (Original Post) Fresh_Start Apr 2016 OP
Fresh_Start I pray for you and your excellent post. You will be slammed for being a globalist, Hoyt Apr 2016 #1
I know that I was concerned about the backlash. Fresh_Start Apr 2016 #3
THIS OP IS NOT A LIBERAL VIEW POINT Zira Apr 2016 #66
It's not even a viewpoint capable of counting to 10. JackRiddler Apr 2016 #98
Not a neo-liberal one though Armstead Apr 2016 #91
Is it liberal to lack arithmetic? JackRiddler Apr 2016 #97
SO we are supposed to shut up and accept the race to the bottom Ferd Berfel Apr 2016 #90
You are supposed to quit treating poor foreign workers like scabs and competition. Hoyt Apr 2016 #92
America First Ferd Berfel Apr 2016 #93
Yep America First and Nationalism, screw the rest of world we are the "greedy 1%ers of the world." Hoyt Apr 2016 #95
Ubsurd excuse for the Race to the bottom Ferd Berfel Apr 2016 #96
"Race to bottom" and other such BS is just dog whistle against poor foreign workers. Hoyt Apr 2016 #99
World population growth is out of control... Blanks Apr 2016 #102
"Trade agreements in spite of their ugly local side effects are good for the worlds populations." Scuba Apr 2016 #2
let's ask the people in India, Philippines hill2016 Apr 2016 #6
Let's see someone in India get's a $3/day job at the expense of someone in the USA who loses ... Scuba Apr 2016 #10
I really don't think your numbers work hill2016 Apr 2016 #12
Nationalism at its ugliest. If in fact an Indian is getting $3/day, it damn sure is better than Hoyt Apr 2016 #25
So you support the Race to the Bottom. No surprise there Hoyt. None at all. Scuba Apr 2016 #29
So you see poor people wlling to work for a better life as competition and scabs. Hoyt Apr 2016 #38
Whoooose. Scuba Apr 2016 #43
It's certainly a boon for the Indian guy who was previously making 20 cents a day Recursion Apr 2016 #57
You seem like a bright guy so I'm pretty sure you can understand this ... Scuba Apr 2016 #72
Only if by that you mean "white working people" Recursion Apr 2016 #75
It's a net loss for working people. Your attempt to suggest it's racist is noted, however. Scuba Apr 2016 #80
Nope. *net* income and wages are up Recursion Apr 2016 #81
In the example I used in the thread, net income for working people is NOT up. Period. Scuba Apr 2016 #83
Yes, it is Recursion Apr 2016 #84
No. Income drops from $240.20 per day to $3.00 per day. If you think that's higher ... Scuba Apr 2016 #85
OMG! Recursion Apr 2016 #86
OMG! Series? Scuba Apr 2016 #88
That's because your example is a *complete lie* Recursion Apr 2016 #89
Your example assumes it takes 100 Indians to replace one American worker. Scuba Apr 2016 #101
A typical call center worker in the Philippines makes about $500-700 per month. DCBob Apr 2016 #76
Yup. Hyderabad call center wages are about $800 per month Recursion Apr 2016 #78
For sure there are problems with outsourcing but clearly some are benefiting. DCBob Apr 2016 #87
Agree Ferd Berfel Apr 2016 #94
No need to go to India. You can ask H1B Indians R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2016 #11
Free Trade agreements do not help with the poverty around the world. FAIR TRADE agreements do. jillan Apr 2016 #4
Did I say "free" trade agreements? Fresh_Start Apr 2016 #13
You Hillarites thought long and hard on this one. nice try litlbilly Apr 2016 #19
They're profoundly ignorant because they don't google and find out anything. Zira Apr 2016 #65
Not being in the "middle class" I can only say that Downwinder Apr 2016 #5
Exactly, they bind countries together in ways that go far beyond trade. Hoyt Apr 2016 #26
2nd in North America alone. mmonk Apr 2016 #7
Just a coinky-dink that these trade deals enrich Hillary's donors, I guess? nt Romulox Apr 2016 #8
That's just an unintended consequence. Wilms Apr 2016 #22
Your third grade sophistry is duly noted. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2016 #9
I didn't say "Free Trade" Fresh_Start Apr 2016 #14
Which just adds to your third grade sophistry. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2016 #17
Thank you! cheapdate Apr 2016 #55
Nafta went from one country to the next using the cheapest labor they could Zira Apr 2016 #67
How is manufacturing goods in one country katsy Apr 2016 #18
Containers are not reused? Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #35
Tons of container waste in S.F. & they're starting katsy Apr 2016 #45
You said they are not reused Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #48
Google is your friend katsy Apr 2016 #52
Thank you. Re: your last paragraph - especially not at the jwirr Apr 2016 #46
that is what they are called whether you said it or not. litlbilly Apr 2016 #20
People are being exploited around the azmom Apr 2016 #15
sources? citations? It's not true just because someone says it on the internet Cheese Sandwich Apr 2016 #16
There are studies by numerous governments and many academics Fresh_Start Apr 2016 #21
Agree, AND it's also not necessarily true even if said on TV either!! eom Karma13612 Apr 2016 #74
Funny, you're the same person who posted this: BernieforPres2016 Apr 2016 #23
Of course they are the same. TM99 Apr 2016 #31
Your concern is noted krawhitham Apr 2016 #24
"You make $40k and have insurance RadiationTherapy Apr 2016 #27
The "trade" agreements are meant to bring most of us down to that worldwide poverty level, with the djean111 Apr 2016 #28
I soundly reject your neoliberalism TM99 Apr 2016 #30
Well said A Little Weird Apr 2016 #32
^^This!!^^ dana_b Apr 2016 #33
This company pays workers $6.00 per day in Mexico. azmom Apr 2016 #44
I just got off the phone TM99 Apr 2016 #47
Besides, it costs more to live in the US, especially in the COLD north! raging moderate Apr 2016 #82
The US is 4.4% of the world population. So an American with an average income is definitely not jfern Apr 2016 #34
You need an income of 40k per year Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #36
VERY attainable for MANY Americans. Hiraeth Apr 2016 #37
40,000 is attainable for many americans Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #39
40,000 is attainable for many americans. bullshit. eom Hiraeth Apr 2016 #41
More than half make 50k or more. That is many americans. Travis_0004 Apr 2016 #49
Individual or Total household Income? either way the 40k jobs of the future. where are they? Hiraeth Apr 2016 #50
So very out of touch.... haikugal Apr 2016 #53
bubbles inside of bubbles. insulated and insular Hiraeth Apr 2016 #54
It's over $100k to be global 1% jfern Apr 2016 #42
No, it's $34K for a single individual Recursion Apr 2016 #58
$34k sounds way too low to be 80th percentile in the US jfern Apr 2016 #59
For an individual earner that sounds about right; median is $25K or so Recursion Apr 2016 #60
Household income probably makes more sense jfern Apr 2016 #63
Exploitative trade agreements are not good for workers of any country. n/t Skwmom Apr 2016 #40
Grab a dictionary..... daleanime Apr 2016 #51
You basicaally just said the middle class if fine, because others are worse. Idiot. Joob Apr 2016 #56
Oh look, more "opposing free trade makes you a racist" horseshit. Odin2005 Apr 2016 #61
More Hillarians being beyond uninformed. Zira Apr 2016 #68
Republican policies. Republican rationalization. nt vintx Apr 2016 #77
Ahh fuck, not this bullshit again. 99Forever Apr 2016 #62
How UNINFORMED can you get? I'm guessing you are a HILLARIAN because this is so bad. Zira Apr 2016 #64
I have not been proud of DU much lately.... senseandsensibility Apr 2016 #69
It's not good My Good Babushka Apr 2016 #70
If you really cared about the worlds poor TheFarS1de Apr 2016 #71
No. I think the Western middle class is in the top 80% to 95% globally, not the top 1%. pampango Apr 2016 #73
Yeah but there's so many ways to measure that it gets meaningless Recursion Apr 2016 #79
This is a national election with international implications but, there is NO NEED, at this time, to Hiraeth Apr 2016 #100
Yes, we should be concerned about other human beings notadmblnd Apr 2016 #103
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
1. Fresh_Start I pray for you and your excellent post. You will be slammed for being a globalist,
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 03:54 PM
Apr 2016

corporatist, GOPer, scab, and whatever else the world's 1%ers can dream up to criticize poor workers in Mexico, Vietnam, India, etc. Nationalism seems to be a virtue nowadays, not just reserved for Archie Bunker style Republicans.

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
3. I know that I was concerned about the backlash.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 03:58 PM
Apr 2016

But I thought a liberal viewpoint should be heard occasionally.

 

Zira

(1,054 posts)
66. THIS OP IS NOT A LIBERAL VIEW POINT
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:16 PM
Apr 2016

How uninfomed can you get! WTF!!

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/12/31/ten-reasons-why-tpp-must-be-defeated


The TPP is NOTHING Liberal and I'm getting the idea you've never listened to a liberal news cast in your life. All of the liberal outlets are a against the TPP for good reason.

Maybe you got lost on your way to Free Republic?

WTF! I highly recommend you visit ANY liberal news site. Start with DemocracyNow.org.

BTW. That's it. You're on ignore.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
91. Not a neo-liberal one though
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:06 AM
Apr 2016

yes trade is a complex issue.

But I treject your breezy dismissal and mischaracterization of the goals, priorities and values of those who oppose the scam of a global economy where all governments are owned by the 1 percent and Corporations and Elite Investors

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
97. Is it liberal to lack arithmetic?
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:35 AM
Apr 2016

U.S. population is 4% of world population, so if the "middle class" is about half of that, it's a neat trick to fit this 2% into the global 1%. Pretty crowded up there - is there any room for actual rich people?

Ferd Berfel

(3,687 posts)
90. SO we are supposed to shut up and accept the race to the bottom
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:02 AM
Apr 2016

Resistance is futile. the Peon should accept the status quo





suicidal crap

Ferd Berfel

(3,687 posts)
93. America First
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:17 AM
Apr 2016

We need to end our global military empire that supports the global corporate elites thumb on the scales, we need to stop killing people across the globe because they were unlucky enough to be sitting on "our" resources

you are supporting the race to the bottom and suggesting that American workers are somehow fucking obligated to compete for wages with people makes pennies on the dollar. Bullshit. Sounds quite republican to me. Sound like the New World Order. I don't owe then that. I owe them my bet attempts to end our illegal wars on them and to get our corporations under control and off their backs. I can offer them a hand up but I do not owe them my job.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
95. Yep America First and Nationalism, screw the rest of world we are the "greedy 1%ers of the world."
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:32 AM
Apr 2016

We are pretty much the 1%ers of the world -- certainly the 5%ers if you want to debate -- and have taken more than our fair share of the world's wealth, but screw them -- America First, Nationalism and a little bit of hatred.

I believe helping the rest of the world develop will be good for everyone.

Blanks

(4,835 posts)
102. World population growth is out of control...
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:52 AM
Apr 2016

When people from 3rd world countries move from the villages where it is common and accepted to have a whole bunch of kids, their outlook changes to an understanding that if they work hard they might hope to have a child.

People don't like it (especially American people), but if we don't have an industrial revolution throughout the world, the unwashed peasants will rise up, form an army of starving desperate people and destroy civilization as we know.

At least that's my concern. We need to take care of the world, and it is less likely to threaten the existence of the entire human race.

You are correct.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
2. "Trade agreements in spite of their ugly local side effects are good for the worlds populations."
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 03:57 PM
Apr 2016

Care to try to back that up????

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
10. Let's see someone in India get's a $3/day job at the expense of someone in the USA who loses ...
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:05 PM
Apr 2016

... a $30/hour job and you thinks this is a boon for working people????


Fact is, you can't back up your statement. It's bullshit.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
25. Nationalism at its ugliest. If in fact an Indian is getting $3/day, it damn sure is better than
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:15 PM
Apr 2016

they got before. What about Vietnamese who all they ever got from us was firebombs and hatred. The TPP actually has provisions that will help move that along.

Yet, most of Sanders' supporters look at foreign labor as worthless scabs.

And, where are our unions? Most of them have "international" in their name. yet they aren't in poor countries because the people can't pay enough in dues to make it worth their time.

A economically progressing world is good for everyone. Jobs in the Middle East would go a long way to quelling dissension there too.

When you look at it from a Mexican's or Vietnamese's perspective, even our lower middle class are in the 3% and just as greedy and callous as what we deem wealthy people.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
38. So you see poor people wlling to work for a better life as competition and scabs.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:59 PM
Apr 2016

No wonder foreigners call us "greedy Americans."

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
57. It's certainly a boon for the Indian guy who was previously making 20 cents a day
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 10:34 PM
Apr 2016

The Indian and Chinese middle classes have exploded over the past 20 years. Neither country is in an FTA with the US (and for that matter our FTAs are mostly meant to exclude India and China), but these are golden years along the lines of the 1950s in the US for the world's two biggest countries.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
72. You seem like a bright guy so I'm pretty sure you can understand this ...
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 07:33 AM
Apr 2016

Going from two working people making a combined $240.20 per day to one working person making $3.00 per day is a horrible net loss for working people.






If one can't understand that perhaps it's because they have their eye more on the profits of the owner class than the earnings fo the working class.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
75. Only if by that you mean "white working people"
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 09:55 AM
Apr 2016

It's a huge, huge gain for the non-white people you thoughtlessly accuse of "stealing American jobs" (whatever that actually means).

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
81. Nope. *net* income and wages are up
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:23 AM
Apr 2016

The world is richer than it was 20 years ago, at every income level.

I know it violates your illusions to understand that, but it's true: the net income for workers is much, much higher now.

Pampered white middle class Americans finally face something approaching what minorities do. That is hard for them, I grant; but it's not the end of the world.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
85. No. Income drops from $240.20 per day to $3.00 per day. If you think that's higher ...
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:29 AM
Apr 2016

... then you need to sign up for a remedial math course.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
86. OMG!
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:31 AM
Apr 2016


Seriously?

Here's a very, very basic arithmetic lesson:

If 2 people go from $200 to $120

And 100 people go from $0.80 to $3

Net income has gone up.

This isn't actually very difficult.

Do you actually not understand that?

You are completely ignoring the staggering size of the developing world's growing middle class.
 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
88. OMG! Series?
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:48 AM
Apr 2016

C'mon, you're not stupid. There are only two people in my example, not 100.

Net income went from $240.20 to $3.00 per day for the two workers in my example.






Are you completely ignoring that? Why?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
89. That's because your example is a *complete lie*
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:58 AM
Apr 2016

You're, again, ignoring the staggering *size* of the developing world's middle class.

 

Scuba

(53,475 posts)
101. Your example assumes it takes 100 Indians to replace one American worker.
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:47 AM
Apr 2016

Do you really have that poor an opinion of Indian workers? I suspect not.


That means that your example is a *complete lie* while mine is accurate. The size of the developing world's middle class is not a part of the equation.







If you cannot engage in debate honestly, don't look for any more replies from me.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
76. A typical call center worker in the Philippines makes about $500-700 per month.
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:04 AM
Apr 2016

That's decent money in the Philippines. The outsourcing business from the US has created a huge middle class of stable younger workers who are becoming the backbone of the Philippine economy.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
78. Yup. Hyderabad call center wages are about $800 per month
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:11 AM
Apr 2016

And the programmers working there make about $1200 per month, which is almost comparable to US wages.

Ferd Berfel

(3,687 posts)
94. Agree
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:30 AM
Apr 2016

These people are rightwing neocon apologists for the 1%. disgusting.

Proving that the Dem party, as we new it, is dead. It is not the Corporate Party

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
11. No need to go to India. You can ask H1B Indians
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:06 PM
Apr 2016

that have been imported to take over American positions.

jillan

(39,451 posts)
4. Free Trade agreements do not help with the poverty around the world. FAIR TRADE agreements do.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 03:59 PM
Apr 2016

Shameful that you do not understand this.

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
13. Did I say "free" trade agreements?
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:11 PM
Apr 2016

I was going to talk about how the agreements are inadequate because they do not cover enough areas to make them fair to everyone. Its not just jobs but also pollution and societal disruption and worker safety and on and on.

 

Zira

(1,054 posts)
65. They're profoundly ignorant because they don't google and find out anything.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:09 PM
Apr 2016

There is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR BEING THIS IGNORANT.

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
5. Not being in the "middle class" I can only say that
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:00 PM
Apr 2016

Trade agreements have become about much more than trade. They are not just about tariffs.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
9. Your third grade sophistry is duly noted.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:04 PM
Apr 2016

Unfortunately Corporate Free Trade is predatory in nature.

And since Corporate Free Trade is anything but fair I would have to ask...

1. Are you really this misinformed about the world, or

2. Are you working for a corporation by posting this drivel?

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
14. I didn't say "Free Trade"
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:14 PM
Apr 2016

there are many studies whether or not you choose to ignore them....international trade is good.
But it could be better, fairer, more protective of the planet earth, more protective of workers around the globe.

 

R. Daneel Olivaw

(12,606 posts)
17. Which just adds to your third grade sophistry.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:28 PM
Apr 2016

Our esteemed leaders call it free trade.

NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP?

Do you lnow what the "F" stands for in the first two??

I call it "failure", but it is known as "Free."

By all means please list some of these studies...especially about the first two.

The main beneficiaries of "Free trade" are the Corporations, the powerful and the lamprey type parasitic politicians that attach themselves to the former.

Do you care to answer honestly? Are you posting this crud on behalf of some corporation?

cheapdate

(3,811 posts)
55. Thank you!
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 10:29 PM
Apr 2016

"Free trade" is when powerful corporations in wealthy countries make lop-sided deals with their cronies in poor countries to steal labor and resources. No one gets rich but the rich.

 

Zira

(1,054 posts)
67. Nafta went from one country to the next using the cheapest labor they could
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:24 PM
Apr 2016

putting all the homegrown businesses out of business as people went to work for the new factories and changing the whole economic system of the countries, then fleeing the country and leaving it impoverished and the old economic infrastructure toppled(put out of businesses by the higher paying factory jobs that fled when laws were put in protecting workers) as they went to the next cheapest labor country and did the same. It has destroyed many countries all over the world.

The TPP is far worse than Nafta. It means we can't even use our country's laws to stop products like lead in Chinese products from getting in our food. It gives them the ability to SUE us if our laws stop dangerous products. But it is so much worse.

The forecast is 1 million jobs will leave America when the TPP is signed.

We lost 800,000 jobs when Nafta was signed - mostly factory. This time it will be the high end jobs like big cuts further in Tech jobs.

katsy

(4,246 posts)
18. How is manufacturing goods in one country
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:34 PM
Apr 2016

and shipping goods across the world in containers that aren't reused for the most part good for the planet?

Clue: it's not.

Corporations should produce the goods and sell them to the market where they are produced.

But the corporate whore politicians sold out their constituencies & the environment, and enabled corporations to make obscene amounts of profit on the backs of wage slaves.

No one has been lifted out of poverty. Wage slaves making a dollar or 2 or 10 a day isn't lifting people out of poverty when there's no clear hope or path to a better future. Labor has no seat at the free trade table. It's modern day feudalism.

And since the fuck when should I, as a taxpayer, be on the hook for perceived profit losses should our regulations stand in the path or a corporation selling their shit to us. Are you fucking kidding me.

Yea ask all the countries that are being sued for wanting to put warnings on packs of cigarettes. It won't happen here but it's happening around the world. Countries are being sued for trying to protect their citizens v

Our government has no fucking business enabling the profits of any corporation. Government used to be in the business of protecting the people.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
35. Containers are not reused?
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:44 PM
Apr 2016

They typically last 10-15 years. If they stopped reusing then, shipping would become unaffordable.

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
48. You said they are not reused
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:44 PM
Apr 2016

First off, those containers are likely not brand new, or used once. Also, you just linked to an article that shows some of the other ways they are reused when they have outlived their useful life on a boat.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
46. Thank you. Re: your last paragraph - especially not at the
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:35 PM
Apr 2016

expense of the people.

She and her third way scare the hell out of me.

azmom

(5,208 posts)
15. People are being exploited around the
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:22 PM
Apr 2016

world for the benefit of a few elites around the world. It's all about profits, not helping people. People are working in unsafe conditions, working long hours for very little money. Why? Because corporations don't want to pay fair wages to Americans.

Fresh_Start

(11,330 posts)
21. There are studies by numerous governments and many academics
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 04:59 PM
Apr 2016

No matter which one I pick you will deny it.
Because you don't want to truth.

BernieforPres2016

(3,017 posts)
23. Funny, you're the same person who posted this:
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 05:09 PM
Apr 2016
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110787461

<I saw that under BS plan my taxes will increase by more than $30K a year.
I can't afford it.

The increase under HRC is 1/10th of that.
And I will reap 5 digit windfalls under Trump.

The BS tax increases are substantial on much more modest incomes.
I've got to believe that numbers like those will cool voters enthusiasm for BS.
I don't watch any television...so I don't know if people realize what he's proposing and how it will impact their lives.
Is it known..and I'm just unaware or is this something the GOP is holding in reserve for the GE?>

Troll Alert!!!!!

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
31. Of course they are the same.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:24 PM
Apr 2016

They don't give a shit about us here in the US. They have their wealth and privilege and status. They just want to take what is left from us and give it (hahaha!) to some body us in another country. The irony of course is that the only ones that will benefit will be the 1% but not us or those other country's populace.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
27. "You make $40k and have insurance
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:17 PM
Apr 2016

don't worry about what the executive team and the janitorial team makes."

Nudge me if I snore, wouldjya?

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
28. The "trade" agreements are meant to bring most of us down to that worldwide poverty level, with the
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:21 PM
Apr 2016

1% sitting on top.

The "trade" agreements state, and enforce, that a corporation can take a sovereign country to court if that country refuses to let them frack or strip mine or any other profit-generating action that would ruin that earth you claim to care so much about.

Either you do not know what you are talking about, or you think the rest of us cannot read, look stuff up, and use reason.
Fail.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
30. I soundly reject your neoliberalism
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:22 PM
Apr 2016

and the fucking guilt trip you are trying to lay on me and us.

We rebuilt Europe through the Marshall Plan after WWII. We had fair trade under FDR through JFK even until Nixon. Free Trade is a product of neoliberalism and you are falling for the guilt hook line and sinker.

I do not support lowering the standards of living in any country in order to slightly raise it in another. I do not support the shifting of all manufacturing from one nation to another such that the only ones that benefit are the corporate stockholders. I do not appreciate someone attempting to shame me about being the supposed 1% in the world when I will be paying student loan debt until I die, I struggle with medical care and medical costs weekly, and freelance work that I do is often under cut by cheap foreign laborers who will take $5.00 an hour for a job that should be making $25.00 given the amount of work.

There is a ton of research that shows how fucked up Mexico is after NAFTA and corporate manufacturing moved there. It did nothing to raise those communities out of abject poverty and in fact in most cases made it far worse.

Sorry your bullshit is not going to work on us. The only reason you give a shit about other people over there is because you obviously don't have to worry about survival over here. I fucking hate your kind of liberalism.

dana_b

(11,546 posts)
33. ^^This!!^^
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:39 PM
Apr 2016

Argh!!! They will say and justify ANYTHING Clinton says or does.

I'll bet that these people hate that kind of "liberalism" too

azmom

(5,208 posts)
44. This company pays workers $6.00 per day in Mexico.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:24 PM
Apr 2016
http://www.latinorebels.com/2016/04/14/maquila-workers-protest-in-juarez-ends-but-the-fight-continues/

The movement began in December, when 120 workers were fired from Lexmark after they halted assembly-line production in protest for a six-peso raise, less than $1. According to the Borderplex Alliance, there are 330 maquilas in Juárez. Most workers say their wages are not enough to meet their basic needs. Lexmark, a U.S. company based in Kentucky, primarily sells printers, toner and ink. According to their annual report, revenue for the company exceeded their $1 billion target in 2014. Lexmark workers earn 105 pesos a day, or about $6.
 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
47. I just got off the phone
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:41 PM
Apr 2016

with tech support in SE Asia on an eBay issue with a fraudulent buyer.

The guy couldn't really help and given the current financial and health stress I am under, I said to him well it is $37.00. I guess I just have to accept it as a total loss. He sniped quite unprofessionally that that was 3 days work for him. I responded that being medically disabled, struggling to not be evicted this month, and worrying about my own financials stress, yes $37.00 is a big deal for me as well. But your corporate masters don't see it that way and will do nothing to help me recoup that from the fraudulent buyer y'all allowed to rip me off. I am glad y'all record this because that was damn unprofessional to say.

And this is what they want. They want conflict between us at the bottom struggling for every last dime. They are fine up on top. The CEO of eBay doesn't want for shit. He isn't trying to live where this kid was on $37.00 a day. He isn't trying to live here like me struggling for rent and medical costs not covered by my insurance in Phoenix.

But then fuckers like this OP have the balls to come in here and shame me for my circumstance. They try to tell me I am the 1% if I just allow them to fuck me over more then that kid in SE Asia will be middle class. And it is all bullshit. They don't care about me and will continue to fuck me over. They don't care about that kid because eBay is NOT going to pay them more.

So fuck them! I am ready for a bloody revolution at this point.

raging moderate

(4,292 posts)
82. Besides, it costs more to live in the US, especially in the COLD north!
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:23 AM
Apr 2016

You are right, TM99. People in the US are NOT ALLOWED to live the inexpensive ways many SE Asia people do. Just try that, and you get your kids taken away and put in some institution or in under-supervised "foster" homes. A guy in San Francisco was just FORCED out of the inexpensive box he had cleverly rigged up. PLUS, there is the necessity in most of the northern half of the US to spend hundreds of dollars each year on warm clothing and hundreds of dollars each month on heating bills, because the outdoors temperatures fall to below freezing, at least at night for many months and even at noon during the winter. People DIE from that kind of cold! There are laws against the simple fire-building our ancestors used to survive these winters, and back then lots of people DIDN'T survive but died from the cold. As I once emailed the Congress when they wanted to yank unemployment benefits from a lot of people in December, WHAT PART OF 20 DEGREES BELOW ZERO FAHRENHEIT DO YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND?

jfern

(5,204 posts)
34. The US is 4.4% of the world population. So an American with an average income is definitely not
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:41 PM
Apr 2016

global 1%

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
39. 40,000 is attainable for many americans
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 07:59 PM
Apr 2016

The median income falls around 50k.

25k would put you in the top 5% globally.

Hiraeth

(4,805 posts)
50. Individual or Total household Income? either way the 40k jobs of the future. where are they?
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:58 PM
Apr 2016

easily obtainable? non existent in my neck of the woods.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
42. It's over $100k to be global 1%
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 08:07 PM
Apr 2016

80th percentile household income in the US $112k, and so over 20% of 4.4%=0.88% of people in the world are Americans earning at least 6 digits.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
60. For an individual earner that sounds about right; median is $25K or so
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 10:50 PM
Apr 2016

I think part of the disconnect might be that domestically we talk about the 1% of earners, regardless of household size, but all the global data is based on per capita household income (so, a family of 5, where the one earner makes $10 a day, is considered to be right at the $2/day global poverty level).

 

Zira

(1,054 posts)
68. More Hillarians being beyond uninformed.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:47 PM
Apr 2016

They don't have google? The don't bother to check on anything before they support it?

How does anyone come up with TPP is good when there's so much out there and the entire liberal news media has exposed it for being BAD BAD BAD for us.

This appears to be the type that support HRC - they don't research or vet. How else can you explain how they never answer to anything when we show facts. They run.

We demand to get to the bottom of things and find out. That's what adults do. I don't know what the heck to call these people who refuse to be informed. No adults I deal with in real life would make it a point of not getting informed. Of course no adults around me would support HRC because they are informed.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
62. Ahh fuck, not this bullshit again.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:04 PM
Apr 2016



You clowns need to get some fresh material, this shit was rotted the first time the Corporate Teabaggers tried to run it out several years ago.
 

Zira

(1,054 posts)
64. How UNINFORMED can you get? I'm guessing you are a HILLARIAN because this is so bad.
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:08 PM
Apr 2016

Please watch DemocracyNow.org's daily show. You'd have a clue what that those trade deals actually do.

As it stands, you're getting on my ignore for this crap mis-informed post.

Google nafta, google the tpp. Get informed. I'm not here to educate you and I'm too apalled by the ignorance and the clear LACK OF INTERESTING IN FINDING out WTF the TPP is before you posted this crap.

As Countries Line Up to Sign Toxic Deal, Warren Leads Call to Reject TPP
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/02/03/countries-line-sign-toxic-deal-warren-leads-call-reject-tpp

Ten Reasons Why the TPP Must Be Defeated byBernie Sanders
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/12/31/ten-reasons-why-tpp-must-be-defeated

Worse Than We Thought': TPP A Total Corporate Power Grab Nightmare
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/11/05/worse-we-thought-tpp-total-corporate-power-grab-nightmare

senseandsensibility

(16,933 posts)
69. I have not been proud of DU much lately....
Sat Apr 16, 2016, 11:56 PM
Apr 2016

but I am proud that as of now, this OP has not received any recs....

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
70. It's not good
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 07:05 AM
Apr 2016

Global corporate colonialism uproots local, sustainable, self-determined business, often through violence and oppression in collusion with governments, stripping resources, freedoms and rights from people.
The second ugly prong of contemporary "trade agreements", is that they serve to hide hordes of wealth through shell companies, like the Panama Papers is making evident.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-winship/panama-papers-offer-more_b_9688186.html

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
71. If you really cared about the worlds poor
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 07:26 AM
Apr 2016

You would stop supporting a candidate that bombs them into misery at every vote . Preach it to the wind , the excessive guilt factor you are trying for is beyond contemptable and is ludicrous in it's assertion .

pampango

(24,692 posts)
73. No. I think the Western middle class is in the top 80% to 95% globally, not the top 1%.
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 07:37 AM
Apr 2016


As liberals, shouldn't we be equally concerned about the other human beings on our planet?

Of course we should. And if we don't, nobody will because conservatives certainly are not going to be concerned with poor people anywhere.

Shouldn't we be willing to share the wealth and the jobs and the industries with other countries and peoples?

Should people with more be willing to share with people who have less? That's a pretty good definition of 'liberal'.

We have been very privileged...and like the silver spoon portion of our society, most of that good fortune has been an accident of birth rather than something we have earned.

Winning the 'birth lottery' (witness the Donald) says a lot about your prospects in life. If you or I had been born in Bangladesh or Nigeria, our life prospects would be significantly diminished.

Trade agreements in spite of their ugly local side effects are good for the worlds populations.

I don't know that it is 'trade agreements' themselves. Few of the really poor countries in south Asia or Africa or the rest of the world have trade agreements with Western countries unless you count belonging to the WTO as a 'trade agreement'.

You could make the case that trade, in general, has contributed to the increasing incomes of the worlds poorest 70%. That would not have surprised FDR. Increased global prosperity was one of the reasons he wanted to promote international trade after WWII.

The problem is not disruption due to trade agreements, it's the failure of the social safety net including job training and housing/food assistance.

True. That is why progressive countries can trade 2 to 3 times as much as the US and have stronger unions and middle classes than the US has. They provide the safety nets, progressive taxes, business regulation, etc. that FDR provided to the US.

We shouldn't be trade isolationists any more than we should be political isolationist.

True indeed. Trump and Cruz are classic republican isolationists like Coolidge and Hoover of the pre-FDR era. They love walls and tariffs; they want to break our international agreements; withdraw from international organizations, etc. Basically they are the opposite of what FDR was trying to accomplish.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
79. Yeah but there's so many ways to measure that it gets meaningless
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 10:13 AM
Apr 2016

We're pretty clearly fantastically rich by Global South standards, but where exactly we stand depends on whether you are counting by earner, by household, or by household per capita income. There are arguments for or against each.

Hiraeth

(4,805 posts)
100. This is a national election with international implications but, there is NO NEED, at this time, to
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:38 AM
Apr 2016

compare/contrast us with the rest of the world. Trying to lay some guilt trip on us for what good fortune we have managed to maintain from the 1%INTERNATIONAL THIEVES.

They are the ones PLAYING THE GAME.

NOT THE MIDDLE CLASS.

I really do not understand the point of this OP in regards to GD-P.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
103. Yes, we should be concerned about other human beings
Sun Apr 17, 2016, 11:53 AM
Apr 2016

NO, FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS ARE NOT GOOD FOR ALL THE WORLDS POPULATION.

Free trade agreements allow for far too many people to be exploited. Just google free trade + human trafficking.

If we truly believed that we should be concerned about the economic well being of other human beings on our planet- we should be supporting Fair Trade, not Free Trade.

Until as a nation we do that, your argument is pointless.
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