2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI'm Canceling My Subscription to Sunshine Patriot Thom Hartmann's Program
because of the stance he took today. It was the f'ing last straw.
What is a Sunshine Patriot?
Sunshine Patriot
A word used in the essay "The American Crisis" by Thomas Paine in winter 1776 during the uncertain times of the American revolution.
The word Sunshine Patriot refers to individuals who claim to fight against tyranny on the side of freedom, yet are unable to stick it out when the going gets tough or unfavorable.
I won't bore or infuriate you with everything he said and have to paraphrase because I am so disgusted and pissed off that I will not waste my time looking for ways to link to the show and find the exact moment when he made some servile statements. Here is the essence of it....
~ It's time to come together...Bernie is likely out of the running because the numbers are against him...Bernie says he will now go after the Super Delegates but that won't work out for him...There's not that much difference between Bernie and Hillary...Bernie started a MOVEMENT and the DNC will have to incorporate his ideas into the Democratic Platform...Hillary has become a progressive and will stay a progressive....and on and on ad nauseum...~
Translation:
TH is freaked about the supremes. That is always his argument. We HAVE to band together and vote for Hillary because if we don't the Supreme Court will be the same as it has been for the last couple of decades.
TH is telling his audience that we have to support the DNC's choice of candidate. They obviously know what is best for us. For all the times he has ranted against everything they have done to Sanders he sure flipped. Sunshine Patriot.
TH forgot about:
The DNC's dismal Debate Schedule--6 Debates for Hillary and Bernie; 25 Debates for Obama and Hillary.
The 'Data Breach'. Lawsuit still pending by Sanders against the DNC for refusing to release Bernie's voter data.
The Hillary Victory Fund.
All engineered by the DNC. And now Hartmann wants us to accept their choice and be good little democrats while espousing they will embrace the 'movement' Bernie started and Hillary will 'remain' a progressive? What tripe!!!! The record of the DNC accepting progressive movements is dismal and I don't see them changing or accepting anything from us---not now and not in the future.They are effictively alienating half of the party members.Since 2009, the Democratic Party has lost 69 House seats, 13 Senate seats, over 900 state legislative seats and 12 governorships. Although most presidents political parties suffer losses in Congress, Republican gains under Barack Obamas administration have been unprecedented. After the 2014 midterm elections, Democrats suffered so dramatically that the Democratic National Committee organized a task force to review how the party connects their core values with voters. While the rise of anti-establishment candidate Bernie Sanders should serve as a wake-up call, the Democratic establishment has not embraced his candidacy as a means to re-energize their voter base. Instead, leaders of the Party have fallen in line behind Hillary Clinton, who only further alienates the types of voters they should be courting. Denying Bernie access to his own voter rolls. That tension spilled into the open on Friday after the DNC cut off Sanders from a crucial voter database, saying the campaign wrongly accessed data gathered by Hillary Clinton's team. Sanders filed suit in federal court Friday evening seeking to regain access to the voter data. http://observer.com/2016/02/if-sanders-loses-bernie-believers-will-take-the-dnc-down/http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/04/19/3770542/bernie-hillary-dnc-fundraising/
Sanders unveiled a new accusation this week, pointing to extremely serious concerns about Clintons joint fundraising activities with the DNC. A letter from his attorney laid out the issue: the joint fundraising structure allows Clinton to accept much larger individual donations than her campaign is legally allowed to receive, and that money is then being used to send out mailers and online ads to raise money from smaller donors who can contribute directly to the campaign multiple times. The group has collected $33 million dollars so far.
This is the type of mega, mega joint fundraising committee that we all feared would come into existence if McCutcheonwere ruled the wrong way, which it was, said Craig Holman with Public Citizen. It makes maximum use of the loose rules governing joint fundraising. Theyre using big checks to set up a small donor fundraising campaign and turning over the small donors to the Hillary campaign while keeping the large ones for the party. It is permissible, but its offensive, and it should be illegal.
Both Holman and Larry Noble with the Campaign Legal Center emphasized that its extremely unusual and possibly unprecedented for a party to raise so much money for a candidate before the general election.
It shows the DNC has clearly taken sides before they even have a nominee, said Holman. Theres an obvious bias.
Noble agreed. They really are throwing their weight behind a particular candidate, he said. Their argument is usually that it helps the party generally, but the practical and legal reality is that it benefits Hillary Clinton. You just dont expect this kind of thing to happen in the primaries.
Noble added that even if there were a legal violation in Clintons fundraising for example, exceeding limits for in-kind donations from the DNC to her campaign the gridlocked Federal Elections Commissions will not do anything to put a stop to it.
As Ben Jealous pointed out recently, the DNC and Hillary are represented by the same attorney, Marc Elias. Conflict of Interest.div class="excerpt"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Elias
Marc Elias
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marc E. Elias is the general counsel for Hillary Rodham Clintons 2016 presidential campaign.[1] He served as general counsel to John Kerrys 2004 presidential campaign. Elias is a partner at the law firm Perkins Coie LLP.
He served as lead counsel for Senator Al Franken in the 2008 Minnesota Senate election recount and contest, the largest recount and contest in American history.[3] Elias represents the Democratic National Committee, Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, and Democratic Governors Association.[2] He has represented the leadership of the House of Representatives and U.S. Senate. Elias has testified before committees in both houses of Congress and before the Federal Election Commission on campaign finance.[4] Elias has worked on voting rights and redistricting lawsuits in Virginia, Ohio, Nevada, Minnesota, New York, Wisconsin, Texas, Florida and North Carolina.[5]
Trust them again? I am in it for Bernie. In for a penny--in for a pound.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Holy shit that's some strong Kool Aid!
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)in our candidates--the ability to adjust to the changes going on in the party~ or some such bull.
Flying Shoe
(23 posts)I can't believe the degree to which he sold out! This election has really told us who our friends are in the media. It is a staggeringly short list.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)is totally supporting Bernie to the bitter win or end. Welcome to DU and thanks for writing.
Flying Shoe
(23 posts)It is nice to know that more and more go to alternate online media sources to get a better source of information, if they can find the right places. Thank you very much for the warm welcome!
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)and I thought they should have given that guy a medal. I am still trying to get into reddit and Cenk and twitter but am a little frustrated....I get FSTV and LINK on DTV but love the 'giant library' of the interwebs.
Here is a nice welcome gift for you! (It's a baby bobcat!) They were rescued together after a forest fire!
Thanks for your reply!
Flying Shoe
(23 posts)I'm glad someone gets the reference!
amborin
(16,631 posts)Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)unnerving. God, I MISS Bill Moyers. He introduced us to Elizabeth Warren. Bill Press and Amy Goodman are hanging in because their hearts are progressive. Remember what they did to Kucinich? Lambs to a slaughter.
amborin
(16,631 posts)core!
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)but that's okay. We don't have to agree on everything. He's still the best talker on radio.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I even wrote an OP back then about it it was so ridiculous, that Bernie needs to pack it in etc. They are really getting desperate, there is no way she is anywhere near clinching the nomination. Far from it, she should have had it by now if the people wanted her. Hardly anyone knew Bernie when this started and yet he's only a little over 210 delegates behind her
He has eroded her lead of 324 after the Southern states and even after NY she hasn't made much of a dent in that erosion, just 29 delegates.
But the talking point is intended to depress enthusiasm. They think we are not 'on to them'. It's a revelation to see the low level of intelligence of some of these paid 'journalists'. Hell I would never have even tried to be a journalist, but looking at some of what comes for these people, I feel I could win the Pulitzer by comparison.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)Loudestlib
(980 posts)She'll become anything that helps her, until it doesn't.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Under the BernieBus he goes!
boston bean
(36,221 posts)holy fuck, that will be a day that lives in infamy here! LOL
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)if that day comes
boston bean
(36,221 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)who saw him as a vehicle by which to destroy the party.
Captain America and Iron Man won't be the only ones in a civil war this spring.
ecstatic
(32,681 posts)PyaarRevolution
(814 posts)I'm good. If he does I'm gone. There are down-ballot dems. who need that money but I don't think he will, donate to her I mean.
BreakfastClub
(765 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Joob
(1,065 posts)We don't follow bernie just for being bernie, We want corruption out.
So I'll be laughing when that endorsement wont mean shit to Hillary at all haha..
Guess it's a funny subject. Don't worry, none of it's going to happen, Bernie will win. Or this Democratic party, will lose.
nolawarlock
(1,729 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)And there's nothing you can do about that.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)I will be glued to this PC all day long when the bus comes for Bernie and Elizabeth Warren!!
ecstatic
(32,681 posts)LuvLoogie
(6,985 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)She will see the undercarriage when she endorses Hillary for president.
jpb33
(141 posts)are you really a working class person? If so you are a Hillary supporter. That is just funny as hell!
senz
(11,945 posts)And, bb, it is so amazingly low and disgusting that I doubt Bernie will be able to "endorse."
But you can just roll and roll in that stuff, honey.
brer cat
(24,555 posts)the tsunami will wash GDP away. I can't wait to see it!
savalez
(3,517 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)I love it when folks that have been rec'ing and cheering links to attacks from the nastiest of right wing sites say they can't be bothered to link to an actual liberal progressive's website.
If that doesn't say something right there.....
Skwmom
(12,685 posts)They are polar opposites in MAJOR ways.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)She is as good today as she was 20 years ago.
Stallion
(6,474 posts)somebody is being reasonable but it ain't you
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)WTF does that even mean .. since anyone with two brain cells to rub together
KNOWS that Hillary's "progressive" veneer is paper thin, and won't last 5 minutes
if Bernie were to drop out of the race.
Dem2
(8,168 posts)Before clicking, I guessed "Thom got pragmatic, under the bus he goes."
Ha! I nailed it.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)of their convictions. I voted for McGovern, Jerry Brown over Clinton, and ran a state volunteer campaign for Dean. They were all killed off. What are your chops?
Dem2
(8,168 posts)I don't call them "chops" though.
Funny what some people think makes them "cool".
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)calling people, organizing people, working your butt off to accomplish your goals. It means giving up your life, family and time to support the candidate of your choice. When the DNC decides for us it is not democratic. They need to listen to their members--not insult them. I have donated thousands of dollars and tens of thousands of hours to support different candidates. I am getting up in years and don't know if I have another election left in me but I'll be damned if I let them lead me by a nose ring again. I say fight to the finish and GO BERNIE!!!!!
Stallion
(6,474 posts)nm
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Peregrine Took
(7,412 posts)Anyway I'm done with the 3 of them on WCPT "progressive" radio Stephanie Miller, Hartmann and Besen.. I will just tune into music or go exercise.
Bill Press, also on WCPT, doesn't seem to have any problems continuing to back Bernie but then he's a lifelong.progressive, not a liberal.
I wish they would get rid of the Saturday afternoon dude, too - totally for HRC and knocks Bernie all the time.
If only we could get RJ Eskew (sp?) on earlier in the day - he is great and a real Bernie progressive.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)I make a monthly donation to them but ain't gonna be paying for ole Thom's salary any more. We have DTV--what do you have?
Stallion
(6,474 posts)Clinton sweep next Tuesday should do it
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)And we have a saying out here in horse country about well--
Rockyj
(538 posts)He says he's for him but knows he really doesn't have a chance, so has been rooting for Hillary since day one and pushing his audience to vote for her. Alan Colmes has recently made the same jump to Hillary! Its like the Body Snatchers! Why am I being shamed to vote for someone that goes against everything I believe in? Can't do it! The 1%, DNC & Hillary will make sure she wins so why are they so S CARED?
xloadiex
(628 posts)WCPT's line up sucks. I can't take Hal Sparks on a Saturday. He is insufferable and never shuts up long enough to let his callers or guests talk.
Hartmann lost me today too. Though he came close yesterday with his anti vaxer segment. Today was too much. He wouldn't even let his callers talk without totally talking over them. I had already stopped Stephanie Miller due to her constant ripping on Bernie.
Now I'll have to just turn on 780 and listen to the "news."
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)and sometimes they complain about it then he lets them get out one or two sentences and cuts them off to ramble about his VAST knowledge of ---whatever---then he says to the caller--oh--Time's up!!!! That is annoying because I want to hear what the callers are saying, not about his living in Europe or other BS. My spouse is a physicist and says everything TH goes off on scientifically is totally incorrect. It's sad because he got me through some hard times.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)I can't listen to her show any more. I did like her show, always made me laugh. But she repeats every Bernie talking points and memes from the Clinton campaign without checking them out and all her guests come on and talk down Bernie. It is MADDENING.
Then at the end of the dissing, she says, "But I'd vote for Bernie if he was the nominee."
As if that makes up for spreading the lies and misinformation.
And right now listening to Bill Press talking with Senator Jeff Merkley form Oregon, who is the senator who endorsed Bernie. They talked about how Bernie should and will stay in the race.
riversedge
(70,185 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)But get under the bus Thom!
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)but we understand we're all identical to you.
Loudestlib
(980 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Loudestlib
(980 posts)faults.
That's an enlighten position. I don't expect Hillary supporters to understand it. n/t
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and it pains me greatly to say that. i have also been seeing some troubling signs that ed Schultz and cenk (!) are starting to drink the kool aid.
last night cenk and john were going with the lesser of two evils. ana and jimmy were fighting them.
tonights tyt was cenk and john. i had to turn it off!
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)goes off on the 'unity' talk. He is obviously very uncomfortable. It's sad, really because I used to look forward to his show and if I missed it could always listen on the computer. I was in a red state last year as my 93 year old mother was dying and there was no radio or tv station that carried his show. That's why I signed up for 7.95 a month--just so I could keep my sanity in redville. Oy Vey!
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)if i see ana, jimmy (from tyt) or mike papantonio talk unity i will be completely depressed.
and belated sympathies on your loss
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)I miss her and it's been rough. Depression babies. She went to school on the GI bill and went to law school. I had her convinced to vote Dem too-she voted for Kennedy.
I really doubt Papantonio will cave---but Farron Cousins always has the delegate count wrong!!! Arrraugh!
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)and a marine wow.
i hope pap stays true..but those delegate numbers.....better to ignore sometimes
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Available free on the Internet
http://tunein.com/radio/Bernie-Sanders-2016-Radio-p766625/
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)Ino
(3,366 posts)and the chat box was going CRAZY yelling at Cenk, agreeing with Jimmy, commenting on how angry Ana looked. I don't remember seeing anyone agreeing with Cenk's position. I thought I'd blow a fuse myself at him. Jimmy was spot-on righteous.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)glad to know i wasnt the only one upset with cenk. poor ana she looks as depressed as i feel.
go jimmy!
TM99
(8,352 posts)are living in an ideological fantasy world. They honestly believe that somehow if only a Democrat wins, then they can fight the neoliberalism and change it. They can somehow change the party.
The party changed when it embraced the Clintons, the DLC, and neoliberalism 30 years ago. It is not going back to the progressive left. Clinton will never be a progressive because she never was a progressive. She will continue if not complete the total right ward shift of the political spectrum in this country.
LOTE voting is such a modern phenomena. It never occurred to American voters up until the 1990's that we had to vote against the other party. We voted for the party that instead represented us best. Sometimes the left won, and sometimes the right one. Sometimes Democrats votes for Reagan. And sometimes Republicans voted for Clinton. The lines finally got blurred when we moved from statesmen and honorable opponents to cults of personality and narcissistic displays of power. Ask most whites what the remember about Reagan, and they will say he won the cold war. Ask most AA's what they remember about Bill Clinton, and they will say playing the saxophone on Arsenio Hall instead of Sister Soujah.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)for the late reply but I appreciate your insights as to Reagan and Clinton 1st and you are right. The mixed or crossover voting was real and the lines drawn in the sand these days are quicksand quagmires. 'Tear down that wall' while he wrecked the economy and smooth jazz from the architect of major job losses. And now we have Bernie and most people either don't know about him or don't care or don't get it.....
tritsofme
(17,374 posts)Now he gets edited out of the photos and becomes an unperson. Big LOLz all around here...
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)Presidency and it was drip, drip, drip. Always something. I think we need something fresh and new and that works for everyone. Do you really think a revisit to the early 90's is going to cut it? Look what they have done to Obama. You might think it can't get worse but the R's are loaded for bear. They have been planning their attacks on her for years, decades.
floriduck
(2,262 posts)But when I watch him on his RT show, he seems like a different person. He is all Bernie on RT. I don't know what he is trying to prove, other than try to prevent a split party on the radio. But I am rather disappointed with him in his attempt to appease the whole party. That game is long over. There are Clinton supporters and there are Sanders supporters. Anyone straddling the fence will fall off in due time.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)so over the top. How can he defend the moves of DWS?
GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)people can be suckered into the lesser of two evils scam.
He's just one more boiled frog. Fuck that.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)firebrand80
(2,760 posts)Stallion
(6,474 posts)Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)Stallion
(6,474 posts)hmm I think these two invented Line Dancing way back in the '60s
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)So far you are not on 'Ignore', you are actually growing on me, well, somewhat. Enjoy this, seriously.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)of the progressives who have jumped the shark today.
But what they do not yet realize is that this train has left the station, and it's running straight into the heart of the beast - with our without them.
TheProgressive
(1,656 posts)Where Sanders already is...
Thom was saying how we need to hold Clinton to her new 'progressive' positions.
Here is the problem Thom: Clinton like all the other republicans and too many Dems
don't care what the people think or want. We can't hold her feet to the fire. She could
care less. Clinton will be like Obama, for example, offer up cuts to SS with the C-CPI.
All in the name of bipartisanship. Ever notice that republicans *never* give in. But Dems
do...
Love ya Thom - but this doesn't work anymore. We need a person like Sanders to turn this
ship around now or it will be too late.
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)compromise. I used to go berzerkers when he tried to "debate" righties and always pulled his punches and tried to appear reasonable. It just didn't work and I think he lost more arguments than he won. He can be impressive with his detailed knowledge on certain subjects but he is definitely lacking in some areas like economics.
I will forever be grateful for his long time alliance with Bernie and for introducing him to a wider audience, and his support of Bernie up to this point, but I didn't even turn on his show today for fear of what he might say. Thanks for warning me.
I guess I can now cancel my sirius subscription since Mike is gone, Stephanie was always a lost cause, and there is really no one worth listening to anymore. Bye, bye Thom. btw, I really hate your music--it makes me physically ill.
merrily
(45,251 posts)has supposedly had at least one on his short list for a long time. And then, there's Cass Sunstein and the law and order "moderate" Obama did nominate. And, let's not forget: Breyer and Kagan voted with the Republicans against ACA's Medicaid expansion. So, the strength of the SCOTUS card is not what it once was.
Also, had Democratic Senators done their jobs about nominations, we would not have had such bad Republican Justices on the Court.
http://jackpineradicals.org/content.php?150-Obama-Considers-Nominating-a-Republican-to-the-Supreme-Court-of-the-United-States
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)and have excellent recall or an enormous gift for finding the TRUTH that is out there that most of us miss. I shudder to think who HRC would nominate to the SC and will not buy into TH's argument. I remember 'Impeach Earl Warren' bumper stickers as a child and asking my parents what that meant. They were evasive.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Japanese internment and had also run for VP. I have a feeling Eisenhower expected him to be a conservative. He turned into probably the most liberal CJ ever. Eisenhower said nominating Warren was the biggest mistake of his two terms. Of course, Eisenhower was a racist who was ticked off by Brown v. Bd. of Ed. He dragged his feet on enforcing it until people shamed him, including Eleanor Roosevelt going to the WH.
Breyer - nominated by New Dem Clinton
Kagan - nominated by New Dem Obama.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)Amazing. I always thought Eisenhower was better than that. He was in office when I was born. LOL, oldie here.
merrily
(45,251 posts)was. They were at some Republican fundraiser with a lot of Southerners and Eisenhower said something like, "See, Earl? These are nice people. They just don't want some big black animal sitting next to their little girls in school." Something like that. And Warren put it in his autobiog. It's been at least ten years since I read the comment, so the wording is not exact, but it was awful. I do remember that much.
NO, I will not run for office. I will never lie or hold my tongue, so I would lose.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)He later told Truman that he would never run as a Democrat, because he hated their support for Unions, and lobor in general.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Stallion
(6,474 posts)nm
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)I think I'm tuckered for a while. Good night.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Of course, Eisenhower was the president who got involved in the Little Rock Central High Crisis stand-off against then-Arkansas governor, Orval Faubus. Another Arkansas DUer told me that it wasn't exactly what the history books depict it to be, and you seem to be reinforcing what he said.
merrily
(45,251 posts)The highway system was FDR's idea, but World War II came along; and Eisenhower nominated Democratic justices because he thought that would help him get re-elected. Also enough money for "guns and butter," which was thanks to FDR's tax system, which was still in place and the aftermath of the war economy. (Kennedy reduced taxes.)
Even though Eisenhower was a war hero, you have to imagine how freaky it was to Republicans that Democrats had just held the Oval Office for 20 years and Congress for most of that. That is, I believe, why Eisenhower and Nixon look so good in the rear view mirrors of some Democrats That and the fact that they had Democratic Congresses.
I am really tired of Democrats going so dreamy over Ike and Tricky Dick.
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)the Chorus.....
Sad sad day.....
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)and we've been hemorrhaging seats ever since. And the party apparatchiks solution is to always cave in to the republicans even more. I'm sorry to hear that Hartmann has given up.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)served his terms in office believing he could meet them halfway. I blame his choice of advisors mostly because he surrounded himself t=with the same old loser dregs of Clinton I. He should take responsibility for his failed tenure but never will and we have the DOJ email mess coming up soon. It will never change unless we make it change and they apparently hold all the money and the power and are not about to give up one inch. Look at Donna Brazile, Jesus, saying she gets TWO votes as a SD. What is democratic about that?
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)What does that mean in his context?
OBAMA RAN AND GOVERNED AS A CENTRIST.
islandmkl
(5,275 posts)appeasement and keeping the Party somewhat together...both of which fly in the face of what is going on...there is not 'one' Democratic Party right now..there are two strong factions, one of which has been shuffled out of positions power for the past 30 years...but has not gone away...
Thom's professed belief that 'Hillary has moved left because of Bernie..' is bordering on fantasy...her history speaks otherwise...
she is saying whatever it takes to whoever it takes to get her prize...and to, seemingly suddenly, come to the conclusion that she has 'changed' or 'adapted' or any other imaginary illusion and that Hillary 'will now be more progressive'...
well fuck...that wouldn't take much, standard-wise, now would it...she can't, and won't, go far enough left to even get her to the (current) center...let alone to the left of what 30 years ago WAS the center...
when the shit hits the fan, the people with the most to lose duck first...those with nothing to lose have nothing to fear...
Thom seems to want to sit on the fence and make amends...that rarely works once the bullets start flying, so to speak...
i listen to him every day...and i like his show and intellect...but he seems to be trying to bulk-up some weakness he is feeling and it appears that he has caved somewhat to a 'surer' position...
which was not his 'persona'...but then again, it's easy to bitch about a dead Ronald Reagan who fucked everything up...but these pundits are all facing the potential of a President Clinton II...and hey...they all have jobs, you know?
...wouldn't want to screw THAT up...
senz
(11,945 posts)I have been listening to him for a long time and find it relatively easy to detect his moods, doubts, enthusiasms, etc. I knew this was coming. I think there are several factors at work in what you heard today (I haven't listened to the podcast yet and am now dreading it). Mind you, this is only my opinion, but it's based on listener familiarity and observation.
Firstly, Thom of course fears what a Republican presidency (particularly a Trump presidency) could do to the country.
Secondly, he is acutely aware of his public responsibility as a popular talk show host. If he tells people to go Bernie or Bust, then quite a few progressives might do so, and if the Bernie or Busters cause a Republican to win the GE, then Thom could be at least partly blamed for it. The ensuing negative effect on his reputation and standing in the D.C. Democratic community (he is based in DC) could leave him somewhat isolated and less able to get Democrats to appear on his show.
So I think he both doesn't want it on his conscience AND doesn't want to be blamed for it if it does happen.
I think it's understandable. However, if all progressive media made that decision, it would be very sad for progressives.
But I've seen him respond pretty strongly to some of the dirty things the Hill campaign has been doing. So I think he's walking a fine line, as many people must do. I've also wondered if Hill's reputation for vindictiveness toward those she considers disloyal could have affected him -- I don't know.
And of course I'm wondering what Bernie will think of it.
So I'm kind of sad but can understand his particular situation. I hope he left the possibility open that Bernie can turn it around.
oregonjen
(3,335 posts)He has retold the story of when they moved to DC and he was invited to a party. He didn't fit their mold of playing the politics game and was never invited to another party after that.
I didn't listen today, but am disappointed in reading all of this.
senz
(11,945 posts)I find it kind of sticky and hard to deal with. I like and respect Thom and have wondered lately if he wants to be an insider. He's done a few smaller reversals recently, like with MSNBC. I think he may have been hurt by their treatment of him. I wish he realized that he, as he really is, is a thousand times better than any sell-out DC phony.
He's a good person and I don't want to judge him on this.
RandySF
(58,728 posts)LarryNM
(493 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)be something behind it: Sanders had to have done something, something outrageous, something that truly deserved such a tremendous response and which was met with angry boos when the activists tried to bring it to their attention--those fiends! a reaction like that means they had to be even more correct than ever!
of course the protesters didn't even recognize Sanders or have the slightest idea, and one of them had easily slid from supporting Palin to supporting Farrakhan
now there's only one Dem candidate left that BLM still has to protest, but to admit that would be to have to reframe the entire image that Clinton's built up around herself, as a competent liberal who's the leftmost hope and the only one to beat the racist hordes on the right--and even the left
Stand and Fight
(7,480 posts)Karma13612
(4,552 posts)Why is he joining the corporate bandwagon so prematurely ?
NONSENSE!!
jpb33
(141 posts)TH since we shared alot of the same principles, but he hasnever been one to have the stomach for getting his hands dirty. When has he ever gone out to a picket line with union workers and gotten himself arrested? He could of gone to D.C. and participated in this weeks protests. Many rich celebs put their money where their mouths are like Rosario Dawson, Ben and Jerry, etc. They protested and got at arrested. TH will never go that far which means he is full of shit.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)you are right! I think you will be a very interesting voice here. I like your point of view--refreshing! Sorry for the late reply and welcome to DU!
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)I get very annoyed with him many, many times too.
Billsmile
(404 posts)The Thom Hartmann program has been inviting Hillary Clinton, or a campaign surrogate, onto his radio show for almost a year now. No takers.
Thom has implored the Clinton campaign to avoid dirty tactics & stick to a positive script regarding Hillary's accomplishments. Thom encouraged the campaign to distance itself from the slimy hit job politics of David Brock & John Podesta.
Thom gives Clinton a complete pass on her prior support & active involvement in the TPP simply because she changed her viewpoint on the deal once when pressured.
Every election cycle Thom reinforces the need for strong voting rights but the DNC believes such actions will dissuade people from voting.
Every presidential election cycle Thom stresses that we need a democrat in the White House because the Supreme Court will likely lose a member or two & we'll need to replace judges with liberal appointees like.............Merrick Garland apparently.
It amazes me that Thom manages to stay positive about things.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)It seems that too many only stand for something when it serves their career path and doesn't require any character or loss.
And btw to TH, I don't think I would be relieved at all by HRC's SC pics. I think she'd put the big banks on the court, free traders, and neocons.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)I've been calling out Hartmann for ages for his conspiracy theorizing in the service of selling Moar Gold and Mega Supa Beets to idiots who don't believe in science, economics, or common sense. The dude is a self-righteous pseudo-intellectual I refer to as the Liberal Glenn Beck, one who preys on the rank stupidity and fear of his core audience, willing to believe anything that corresponds to their world view in which the Bush family and the Illuminati are conspiring to scretly rule the world via the military-industrial-GMO-vaccine complex. And oh yeah the one percent. Lynch them. And Oh yeah, buy Moar gold because look at that stock market . . , oh wait it's actually up substantially on the year and near a record high, but TH hasn't bothered to cut new commercials warning that it's too high so he runs the ones where he screams that it's all collapsing NOW buy Moar Gold!
People who think Hartmann is some kind of genius strike me as either nuts or poorLy informed and educated. His rhetoric relies on the same tricks the right wing shock jocks use. And the same advertisers.
That said, if he's come around on Hillary maybe he's not as hopeless as he seems. His support for Bernie helped convince me that many Sanders supporters were motivated by angry conspiracy theories and paranoia. Listening to them call in and propose absurd conspiracy stories with which Hartmann would simply agree showed me how our far left wing folks are just about as anger-and-fear driven as the tea party nutcakes.
But it's funny as hell to watch the true believers turn on their false prophet, and I suspect it will be even funnier when Bernie himself sells out the cause for a paycheck or just for common sense pragmatism.
Stick a fork in it folks. We're done picking our nominee.
BernieforPres2016
(3,017 posts)A number of us have discussed some of the intellectual backflips Hartmann had been doing while pretending that there wasn't really a huge difference between Bernie and Hillary. He clearly knows better, based on his conversations with people like Thomas Frank and some of his own comments. The idea he's been trying to peddle that Bernie has pulled Hillary to the left and somehow turned her into a progressive is complete bullshit, and Hartmann isn't stupid enough to really believe it.
My guess is that FSTV is hanging on by its fingernails financially and Hartmann thinks the audience for real progressives isn't large enough to keep them in business, so the only hope for survival is to remain a house organ for the Democratic Party. Stephanie Miller has been there through this campaign. Hartmann has tried to hold out and remain somewhat neutral, but after New York he decided he had to get off the fence and become yet another complete sellout.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)it's not just that the Pubs are so loathsome, it's also that it'd mean admitting that the party isn't what we've tried to make it by believing in it for so hard and so long, that our fight's been in vain; any criticism, mind you, will be viciously blamed and swarmed when the drippy DINO loses because they're unlikable and have literally nothing to offer anyone
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)Dr. Frankenstein Syndrome TM (c)
He feels responsible for creating a monster (Bernie or Busters) and is in full damage control mode. His whole "Let's all just get along" schtick with Stephanie Miller was the first indicator.
He obviously never listens to her show. She's been trolling Bernie and his supporters for months and only reports pro-Hillary, anti-Bernie pieces. She had Ed Schultz on once and he steamrolled her. She was totally deflated. She thought she could butter-up Ed like she does Thom (she's so insecure), but Ed wouldn't have any of it. On the other hand, Thom acts like a desperate man succumbed by flattery.
I didn't catch him yesterday. Did he actual say Bernie needs to drop out now? That would be the only reason I could see for creating the OP. He's said all along that he'll support Hillary and Bernie should stay in until the convention. If he's asking Bernie to drop out, wow!
Response to Land of Enchantment (Original post)
Corruption Inc This message was self-deleted by its author.
basselope
(2,565 posts)Trump is an ego-maniacal loony toon with ideas that will never get through congress (his wall, etc.). If he got in, he would probably wind up completely grid locked and be stuck pointing fingers for 4 years at everyone standing in his way, sending out angry tweets about various senators and congress people not playing fair. The democrats in the senate would filibuster any attempt to dismantle things like the ACA and his lack of being able to get things done would likely lead to him losing the Senate in 2018 (and possibly the congress). Unlike bush, Trump is not a complete idiot, so we wouldn't be on the same path we were when bush was in office where memos about attacks would get ignored, we would attack the wrong country or giant housing bubble would blow up in our faces. For all his faults (and lord knows there are many), he would be MOST afraid of making a mistake. He would replace Scalia with another Scalia.
Hillary is downright dangerous, because she would most likely take office with a GOP house and Senate and her willingness to capitulate means they would get what they want. The progressive agenda would get thrown under the bus. In many ways the conservative agenda would get advanced easier under a Hillary administration. The one advantage is that we won't get another Scalia, but we would likely end up with a pro-corporate justice who is not likely to overrule Buckley v. Valeo (which is where you REALLY have to go in order to truly get rid of citizens united).
Climate change will get thrown under the bus by both candidates and Hillary is okay with Frackin and Trump doesn't even believe in it.. basically, no progress will be made under either administration.
All in all, in many ways, Hillary is far more dangerous because I know what she will do.. sell us out as she has done her whole career.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)and I had to go to sleep last night and get up early today to plant. You crack me up! I'm sure he is afraid of boomers on SS but who help pay his salary. Here's some of what I did last year...guess what I'm doing all this week? Sorry for the late reply!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I suspect if he doesnt win the nomination, he will endorse the nominee and encourage his supporters to vote for her.
Thats how this works.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)I am not a Bernie or Bust person--yet. But I cannot vote for her ..at this point. I've been around since ' '72 and lived through the DNC telling me for whom I will vote. I don't know if I have another presidential election left in me and I am not going to be duped again. I have supported every D candidate since '72 and Bernie is the candidate of my lifetime. No scandals, no trust issues--what you see is what you get--a real FDR reincarnation. I am just disgusted that the DNC never gave him a chance, in fact they screwed him from the onset and I am not going to tow their line--again. I doube he would run on a third party ticket because he has committed to supporting her if she 'wins' but in my opinion if her 'wins' are by fraud I will encourage him to run because Trump will also be a third party and we will have four.....
Not trying to piss you off but we never know what will happen and it could get interesting.
I care about climate change and global warming. My spouse is an expert (PhD) and it is CRITICAL we address and FIX it. Mrs. Clinton supports fracking, drilling, etc. Our loss if she wins.... Thanks for writing.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I respect peoples own process and how they make up their minds, and besides lectures rarely convince anyone of anything.
Land of Enchantment
(1,217 posts)as I have been around too many screwed up elections. I voted for McGovern and was maced protesting Nixon. Every time we had someone remotely progressive the national party apparatchik killed them off. My last failure was Howard Dean. I worked my ass off for him and was on the front page of the state's newspaper (pictured with him) the day of the primary. His 50 state strategy was brilliant but his successors have failed him and the Party and the people. I won't lecture you either and thanks for your reply.