Those who would not vote for Hillary in the GE, have you taken a good look at the Big-Picture?

[Cal33]

With all her negatives that have been described here at DU, she would still be a lot better
than any Republican president. For instance, I doubt it that she would nominate a
Republican to the SCOTUS. Yes, there will be no change. She will maintain the present
status quo. Our democracy will remain a half-dead one. But where there is life, there is
hope. We can still hope that the next Progressive president will do the job.

If we elect a Republican president this coming November, I feel that the Corporatists are
ready to kill democracy in our nation altogether, and this time they will make their
Oligarchic Fascists the leaders of our nation. My feeling is that they would have made their
move during Bush Jr.'s presidency, but they decided against it probably because they felt
that they weren't strong enough. And a failure of this magnitude would carry heavy
consequences. Today they are much stronger than they were a decade ago.

An example: Police departments have been militarized in our entire nation from coast to
coast. Few people knew about this until 2011, when Occupy Wall Street began their
peaceful demonstrations. The police cracked down on them brutally and had them jailed,
albeit for a few days only -- not just in NYC, but throughout the country.

Only then did we realize that the militarization of our police departments was already a
fait accompli in 2011. To do something of this order takes a good deal of planning, and
time. This must have taken years to complete.

Whose idea was it? Who did the planning? We already have the strongest and most costly
military in the world, do we really also need a militarized police department at home? And
if so, what is it for? And why such secrecy? Shouldn't the American people also have had
some say in this? If it weren't for the Occupy Wall Street incidents, we might still have
been totally in the dark today.

Sanders still has a chance of winning. I have not given up hope. But if he should lose
the Primaries, I would vote for Clinton. Under these circumstances, odd as it may seem,
she would represent our best hope of preventing the greater of two evils from happening
to our entire nation!

To me, the above is a brief description of what I think is the Big-Picture of the state our
country at this very moment. We are living in highly interesting, but also extremely
dangerous times.

In the meantime, we'll continue to do everything to help Sanders win.

[bkkyosemite]

1. I will not vote for a Republican.

[Cal33]

2. How about staying home? Would you do that? Not voting also means one Democratic vote fewer.

[artislife]

21. I hear very few will stay home.

There are loads of options out there.

[Cal33]

25. As long as they are helping the Republicans to lose. The most important point is what will

help to prevent our nation from becoming a DICTATORSHIP.

[artislife]

27. Whatever.

[Ferd Berfel]

15. agree

but I will vote down ticket - but not for the DLC, Blue Dog, Third Way Corporate Faction.

In the early 2000's I supported Melissa Bean (D) IL-10th in her first run. She won. She turned out to be a DLC Corporate Blue Dog. I didn't vote for her the next time around and neither did many others. She lost and we got.......Joe Walsh (R-douche bag extraordinaire). He was in one term, we paid for that but then we got Tammy Duckworth. Now, Tammy is going to take Kirk's Senate seat!

Revolution costs. At a minimum, in pain and suffering. It ain't free.

re: Thomas Franks in his new book http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1874869

[Cal33]

28. Great for you guys. I hope other states will also get more Progressives into Congress.

[Android3.14]

3. I cannot stand with people who behave as she and many of her followers do

Should I vote for Hillary?

Should I vote for a Republican? Should I vote for a liar? Should I vote for a warmonger? Should I vote for someone who undermines the democratic process and the will of the people? Should I vote for someone beholden to foriegn interests and corporate masters?

That's what you are really asking when you ask whether to vote for Hillary.

[Cal33]

12. I think the really big question is "What could happen to our entire nation if I did this or

that?'' The Republicans are already doing all the negatives that Hillary is doing -- and
PLUS a great deal more that is far worse than what Hillary has done. Do you agree?

[Android3.14]

30. Not after this primary

I have observed a person who is antithetical to Democracy and who apparently will stand for anything as long as it feeds her hunger for power.

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.” - Mussolini

The "really big question" is whether you will vote for fascism (Hillary or Trump) or if you will defy inhuan governance and withhold support from those who would lead us down that path.

[Cal33]

41. How about thinking in terms of which is the greater of two evils for our entire nation? I

think that the Republicans are far worse than Hillary -- and she has enough negatives
as it is.

In the meantime, do what we can to help Bernie win.

[Android3.14]

42. I think moral intelligent people withhold support for corporatism

You address that core issue first, and then we can look at the specific question of how we should vote.

And Call33, just to let you know, that question is what I will be returning too if you continue to urge people to vote for the lesser of two evils.

Should moral intelligent people support corporatism? The answer is either yes, no or sometimes. I'm guessing you will go for the "sometimes" argument, and I am very curious as to what conditions make it cool to support fascism.

[Cal33]

59. When there are two evils, I think I will always try to fight to prevent the greater

one from happening, if it's a case of either one or the other will be winning. And
this will be the case if Sanders loses. For me, it's the only thing left to do. Not
voting, or voting for some small powerless party is not only a waste of time, but
it would also be helping the greater evil to win.

[Yurovsky]

122. No,voting for Trump is helping Trump...

voting for the Green or Socialist candidate is not a vote for Trump, and I won't vote for a lesser evil, I won't vote for evil, period.

Maybe evil is too strong a word. How about "evil enabler"? I think the real evil is Goldman Sachs, WalMart, Citigroup, and her other corporate masters.

[Cal33]

129. Yes, there are several names - Goldman Sachs, WalMart, Citigroup, Pharmaceutical Cos., Insurance

Cos., Wall Street, and they all mean the same thing - the Corporatists. Trump is a newer and only
a partial and more independent member of the above, and they have tried to kick him out because
of his independence, but are not successful so far.

I believe the main way the Corporatists operate is through bribery and corruption. Their ranks are
filled with greedy people who, as the saying goes, would sell their own mothers if the profit is high
enough. With them, money alone talks. They are unsuccessful with bringing down Trump thus far
because the way they operate does not bother Trump at all -- he has more than enough wealth of
his own. They can't touch him at all, even when he thumbs his nose at them. Yes, Trump is for
Trump only, but officially he is one of their members.

"Evil enabler" would be more accurate a term for her. The Republican Party used to be nearly all
the way for the Corporatists. Not any more. In recent years, members are leaving the Republican
Establishment by the millions. The same thing is happening to the Democratic Establishment.

Yes, I would consider the Democratic Establishment people the lesser of two evils, and the
Republican Establishment, as well as Trump, the greater. I thinks it's more important to fight
against the Greater Evil. Minor parties like the Greens have zero chances of winning at this time.
A vote for them would be a vote wasted, because it would mean one vote less for the Democrats,
(1 vote less), and this would help the Republicans to win. Voting for Trump entails 1 vote less
for the Democrats PLUS one vote more for Trump, which would be like (2 votes more for Trump).
It's twice as bad.

So, if Bernie should lose, I would prefer to vote against the Greater of 2 Evils, who would definitely
do more harm to our country than the Evil Enabler would. The goal of the Corporatists is to turn
America into an Oligarchic Fascist Dictatorship. We have already lost a good deal of our freedoms.
Can you imagine living under a Total Dictatorship? Hillary is for her own profit. Selling America
down the river is not her goal. She would maintain the status quo, and this would give us the time
to work on having a real Progressive/Liberal president at the next election. With Trump or any
other Republican president, there might not even be any further presidential elections at all in the
future! Many people probably don't take this last point seriously. I do!

As I have said previously, we are living in highly dangerous times!

[Yurovsky]

141. Agree 100% with the last line...

it is dangerous out there. I have no idea what a President Trump might do or say to provoke an international crisis. I do believe that he's opposed to the neo-con "let's go start a war! It'll be great!" foreign policy of W & Dick.

Hillary, OTOH, is probably the more Hawkish of the two. Granted I believe her judge,ent is probably a shitload better than W & Dick's, but I also fear she might feel the need to prove she's tough and escalate a situation that might otherwise not involve a shooting war.

I just wish she had chosen another way to fund her political and private life after Bill left the WH. It would have prevented a lot of her problems with progressives.

[stillwaiting]

4. The oligarchs are already firmly in control.

They DID make their move with Bush.

Help America Vote Act usurped democracy.

We can fight to get it back. Or not.

[Cal33]

17. Yes, they are firmly in control, but not completely. If we help a Republican president to win this

time, they would make a Fascist Dictatorship official here. Good-bye to what's left of our
freedoms. You ain't seen nothin' yet!

We just can't afford having a Republican for president this time.

[onecaliberal]

5. The gravest threat is climate destabilization. I will NEVER vote for someone who doesn't address it

again. We are out of time, are all these Hillary voters explaining to their grandchildren that they can't be bothered to give two shits about the planet they're leaving behind because money.

[Cal33]

22. The Republicans will more certainly NOT address climate destabilization than Hillary. As

I've stated in the OP, whatever negatives Hillary has, the Republicans already have PLUS
a great deal more. Do you agree? The Republicans are the GREATER EVIL BY FAR.

[onecaliberal]

57. They are owned BY THE SAME PEOPLE. What is so hard to understand

Where it really counts war and environment she IS a republican.

[Cal33]

60. They are not exactly the same people. With a Republican as president, our nation

Last edited Mon Sep 12, 2016, 06:11 PM - Edit history (1)

would be facing a Fascist dictatorship take-over. Not so with Hillary. She will be
maintaining the status quo. I realize we've already been waiting so long for a
change. It would be hard to wait still longer for a Progressive to make the changes.
But that's what must be done, to keep the little freedoms that we still do have, and
to help them survive.

In the meantime, do our best to help Bernie.

[onecaliberal]

63. Your vote is your decision and your business, my vote is my decision.

Don't blame Bernie or his supporters that the party coronated the weakest candidate they could find before even one vote was cast. An candidate that 67% of the country thinks is a liar and candidate under FBI investigation. I'm done with blaming the victim bullshit and boogeyman memes.

[riderinthestorm]

95. The status quo destroys our environment the same as climate change deniers.

Scientists believe we're already in the leading edge of severe weather and environmental events. We need aggressive global leadership now. Not incrementalism.

You say think of the greater good? I will and that's not Hillary.

I have to live with myself and my conscience. In 5 years as the disasters snowball, I want to be able to tell my kids I voted for a candidate that was a powerful advocate for humanity.

Really nothing else is as important as this in our history.

[creeksneakers2]

49. Hillary addressed climate destabilization

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/climate/

[Duckhunter935]

54. As she likes and supports fracking

No thank you, i still support Bernie

[onecaliberal]

58. By supporting fracking and taking donations from big oil.

She's changed positions back and forth for expedience so many times, it's laughable that you people think anyone believes what comes out of her mouth. Release the fucking transcripts of you want to know what her REAL positions are.

[Cal33]

64. Glad to know that she said what she did. I hope she will live up to her words, should

she become president, as Bernie certainly would.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. And James Hansen said it is far from enough

Sorry if I believe the recognized world class scientist on this, and not you.

[creeksneakers2]

111. James Hansen is great

He knows far more about climate change than Hillary ever will. Hansen is at the upper end of climate change predictions. I haven't seen his list of what he believes we have to do now but I imagine its not politically feasible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. And why we will go extinct

[pdsimdars]

142. You need to say what group she was speaking to when she put out that particular position right

[Kip Humphrey]

6. but Hillary IS a corporatist! She bragged to me how she was an original thinker and early

advocate of "Globalism" (her words to me in 1970). And she has not veered from her "vision for America" since. No, I cannot vote for Hilary, sorry.

[Cal33]

37. Don't put too much emphasis on names and labels. There are corporatists and corporatists. Some

are worse than others. For example, you can be sure Hillary would not name a Republican to
the SCOTUS. A Republican president definitely would. We've already had 2 decades of 5 - 4
in the Supreme Court in favor of the Republicans, and look at the amount of damage that has
already caused us.

One way: Look for who does more harm to our nation -- and vote against that one.

[Vote2016]

8. If you live in a swing state, pull the straight party lever! If you live in the 45 other states,

vote down ballot Democrat and vote your conscience at the top of the ticket.

[byyiminy]

29. Those of us in Colorado think Clinton wasn't worth it then

she won't be worth it when it comes to November.

I can do my best to vote for Clinton, but the momentum for Bernie is really strong.

[Cal33]

38. Sure, do your best for Bernie. I'm doing that, too. But if Hillaary should win, I'd

be voting against the Republicans. They will do far more harm than she ever would.
I'll vote against having our nation becoming a dictatorship.

[Vote2016]

40. If you're from California, our nominee will carry your state regardless of your vote at the top of

the ballot.

[artislife]

52. I think WA state is right there with you. nt

[Thinkingabout]

9. The big picture, Sander does not have a chance of acquiring 983 delegates by the end of the

primaries, I am not suggesting he withdraw just giving the big picture, reality, math, is not in his corner.

What chance would Sanders have placing a far left nomination of a SC justice and get the person confirmed? Very doubtful, in fact SC justices should leave their political thinking outside when they listen to cases.

[Duckhunter935]

33. Do you think Hillary

will get any left leaning justice through, not to mention far left? I think not

[Cal33]

39. We'll have to elect more Progressives into Congress. The Dems. probably will win the Senate this

time around.

[Duckhunter935]

53. Funny, that is Bernies position

He can not do it by himself. Nice to know Hillary and her supporters have joined him on this.

[kcjohn1]

10. Vote your conscious

All the stuff you mentioned were enabled and passed through with the cooperation of democrats like Clinton.

If you are so concerned with the big picture focus on local elections as that is were you will have the greatest impact.

[Cal33]

43. But there are some negatives Clinton will not add to, which a Republican president most definitely

will. As I mentioned above, the Supreme Court, for instance. Dems. will probably win the
Senate in November. There is a good chance of having 5 Democratically elected Supreme
Court Justice - for a change. Justices are supposed to be politically neutral. The
Republicans sure did make fun of that one, didn't they?

[Garrett78]

11. A Clinton Admin will likely operate more or less the same as the Obama Admin has.

Does anyone seriously think a McCain or Romney or Trump or Cruz Admin wouldn't cause far more suffering?

I get why people are frustrated with the Democratic Party. I really do. But I will absolutely take an Obama or a Clinton Administration over a Trump or Cruz Administration. Without a moment's hesitation.

[Cal33]

66. Yes, I agree.

[baldguy]

13. As of this moment, and from now on, the leader of the "Not Hillary" Party is Donald Trump.

And as long as Sanders continues his campaign, he's acting as one of Trump's minions.

[Katashi_itto]

23. As Clinton is the minion of the 1%

[Cal33]

68. There are minions and minions. Some are worse than others. Understanding

this helps to keep one's mind and actions more reasonable.

[artislife]

24. That is such a load of crap

If Bernie weren't running, it would be harder to tell hillary from donald.

[apcalc]

35. Really?

That is an amazing sentence.

[artislife]

48. It is amazing, and yet, still true.

[byyiminy]

32. Oh really?

Then you would have to consider Clinton as Minion Number One.

[baldguy]

44. That pic was taken - what? 11 yrs ago?

Sanders & Trump are tag-teaming against Clinton & the Democratic Party TODAY.

[Cal33]

46. If you think in terms of the big-picture, who will do our nation more harm - Hillary or the

Republicans? And this time, the very freedom of the American people is at stake. We
are facing Dictatorship. Let's choose with a cool head, and wisely.

[artislife]

50. Your big picture only goes so far

I saw take an even more global view (in both senses of the phrase) You vote for H and we get incrementalism and the planet dies slowly. Nothing is done about money in politics, no voter suppression issues are examined and the left gets pushed to the back of the bus again.

Those things would happen under a republican as well.

The only thing is that the Democratic Party would not ignore progressives in the future, like 2018. That would lead to more progressives on ballots.

It is hard to see the upside of a h win, because it looks like a republican win just a little slower and completely shutting out the progressive side of the population.

The people who are fed up with the 1% are not going away. In fact, I would guess they keep growing.

[Katashi_itto]

78. Narcissistic madman or sociopathic corporate socialist. Hobson's choice.

[Cal33]

67. That's baloney. I admit that Sanders' chances are slight, but they are still

there. And as long as they are there, I'll be for him.

[TM99]

88. That is some seriously twisted logic

that could only come from a Clinton supporter.

[oasis]

14. The addition of 3 Scalia types to the Supreme Court by Trump

will turn the status quo into status "woe".

[Cal33]

71. I don't think Trump can win. He is simply too much for most people.

[pinebox]

16. I don't vote conservative.

[Cal33]

72. Thinking in terms of names and labels only limits a person. Sometimes one has to think

in terms of which one will do more harm to our nation, and then do what you can
to help to prevent it from happening.

[pinebox]

81. Sorry but I don't do lesser of 2 evils anymore

I vote progressive, not parties

[pdsimdars]

143. I tend to agree . . . they have kept us on this "lesser of 2 evils" for 30+ years now

and the lives of working Americans have not improved. The rich keep getting richer. Would 40 or 50 years be long enough for them to eventually get around to thinking about us?
I don't think so, I think it has to be a revolution to get their attention.

[B Calm]

18. I'm not there yet on who I will support IF Bernie loses. As long as Bernie is still in the race, I

fully support Bernie Sanders.

[mmonk]

19. I'm frightened about the future (I'm not one of those declaring I won't vote for her).

I don't know how the FBI investigations will go or the FOIA lawsuits either. I don't know if she becomes President if we are going to have to go through endless hearings by the Republican's or impeachment hearings. If Trump becomes President, I think the country will go through periods of violence domestically. I don't know what types of laws will be enacted against the people. I'm having a hard time visualizing an improving nation at the moment with those types of thoughts bouncing through my head.

[Cal33]

73. If Trump wins it would be disastrous. Cruz might be worse. I don't think either of them can win.

We may be crazy, but not enough of us are that crazy!

[mmonk]

85. I hope not but the mere fact you have people this far

into a presidential campaign that bad makes me wonder what has happened to people.

[Katashi_itto]

20. I don't vote Republican.

[Cal33]

74. Geat! I don't either.

[Katashi_itto]

77. You support Hillary.

[byyiminy]

26. I have.

Donald Trump: Foolish Republican barker that's playing games with Clinton
Hillary Clinton: Corporatized Democrat who's pretending to play the "progressive that have done things" card.
Bernie Sanders: The only real candidate out of all the current field that really has been consistent and has earned my vote.
Ted Cruz: You fucking kidding me? I wouldn't touch him with a 100-foot pole.. as heavy it is...
John Kasich: Scary Republican here, but fortunately has been quelled by Trump's bombosity.

[Cal33]

75. I agree with you in general. I'm voting against the fron-runner who, I think, will do

the most harm to our nation. And I'd vote for the one who will do the most good.

A hearty Welcome to DU. Hope you will enjoy your stay.

[Duckhunter935]

31. of course, that is why I will vote down ticket races.

I know how my state will vote for the top ticket. My vote or non-vote will not count

[apcalc]

34. a Republican win would be disastrous

[Cal33]

79. Yes, definitely.

[padfun]

36. I will be voting for the Dem candidate.

Regardless who it is.

I am in my 60's and I see how important the SCOUS picks are. And most importantly, just how long they can damage this country.

A protests vote will do long term damage to any progressive push in this country. Yes, Hillary wont do much to advance it, but she wont harm it like a Republican will.

I will be dead in a decade or two, but the young ones out there should realize just how important it is to not allow a Republican to choose their Court choices for a good portion of their life.

Everyone really does need to look at the Big Picture.

[Cal33]

82. Yes, I too sometimes worry for the younger people, and hope that this mess we are in will

not last much longer.

[aikoaiko]

45. Bernie supporters will follow their consciences when making voting decisions.

I think that's all people can ask.

How that plays out remains to be seen.

[Duckhunter935]

55. So true

[mikehiggins]

47. If HRC wins the nomination, pray she faces Trump

The possibility exists that the GOPuke establishment will somehow keep Trump out of the running and get someone more or less respectable to run as their candidate. Colin Powell, for example. Someone with a record that is not as odious or reprehensible as the Three Stooges left in the Clown Car (people who think Kasich represents a more legitimate candidate just hasn't been paying attention).

HRC is actually a weak candidate, despite the hype, and confronted with a "moderate conservative" who does not want to eliminate the last half century, would have a hard time winning. If they somehow manage to get Rubio or even Jeb into the race her calculations can run up short.

As to Senator Sanders the HRC people are correct. THe GOPukes would drop a mountain of lies and tales on him and he has not faced the kind of attacks sure to come to any Democratic nominee, especially a Godless Socialist (not to mention a Jew). The real question is whether the US public would hear his side of the story. For those without the Internet that is an open question.

So, my point is, Pray for Trump. He's our last, best hope.

[AgerolanAmerican]

51. I have looked at the big picture

and in the Big Picture, people like Hillary are the problem, not the solution.

[Cal33]

84. I think that, tainted as she is, there are individuals who are much worse than

Hillary. I would fight against the greater evil rather than lump them all
together, when the time for choosing arrives. Unpleasant as it is, I will
not dodge making a choice either,

[99Forever]

56. What makes you think our reason for not supporting Clinton...

...isn't BECAUSE we "have taken a good look at the Big-Picture?"

What condescending load of bullshit.

[ViseGrip]

61. Yes, I have, for over 30 yrs. Tired of holding nose being miserable, I'll voter for whomever makes

congress the most miserable. Why should it always be us? Do we get the better half when we do this? The 'bigger picture' says NO, we have not. We've been had.

For me the bigger picture is if Trump wins and Hillary loses, both parties have to rebuild. A Trump win means dems will take back house and senate next cycle. That polling on the 'bigger picture' shows that. Then in another two, we get another shot at a progressive for the WH.

If Hillary wins, it's the same ole', same ole' shit for the next decade.

That's the bigger picture.

GO BERINE!

[Cal33]

87. Has it occurred to you that if any Republican wins, the possibility exists that

we might not even have the chance to vote again? Or if we still will have the
right to vote, it would be like the way they used to vote in the former USSR?

We are having problems with our voting system right now, as it is. And it
needs a huge amount of improvement.

Yes, I agree with you: GO BERNIE1

[northernsouthern]

62. Yes, looking at the big picture is the reason they say they won't

You think trying to hold people's votes hostage by threatening to remove a few more liberties from them matters when we know she will too. Hillary has people in the prison industry lobbying for her, she is highly militaristic, or police force got their weapons from an out of control military spending culture. She has shown that she always helps out her donors. She has shown she cares little for the workers, she worked for Walmart for Christie's sake. The advantage of a vote for an independent is that we may finally get one, polls are indicating they may have enough support to beat both candidates...but they could also break the hold of the NCs and make them finally represent the people again. Heck even Bernie could win with a large enough write-in. I am not saying how to vote, but the idea that people that are in the DU have not thought through the idea of not voting for a Dem is ludicrous. Also police state is a very weak argument, the more common HRC goto is the supreme court.

[PowerToThePeople]

65. Viva la revolucion!

eom

[frylock]

69. I'm sensing a theme.

[jwirr]

70. You ask if we have looked at the big picture. I ask if you have?

For the last 40 years we have been heading toward a corporate controlled oligarchy which included the likes of both Trump and the Clintons. We are on the edge of the cliff when it comes to this oligarchy taking over completely. Issues like trade agreements are systematically destroying the sovereignty of nations and moving money upwards to the point that 62 very wealthy people own more wealth than 300 million people on this earth.

We cannot afford another Clinton/New Democrat administration. We cannot afford another welfare/social security reform bill. We cannot afford to lose any more of the safety net.

And yes we also cannot afford to lose the SCOTUS for decades but Bernie will do just as well as Clinton if not better since he will also want to get rid of Citizens United. Bernie will act for the people in every aspect of this battle while Hillary has divided loyalties - she may want to represent the people but she owes the big money elements.

That is the big picture to many of us. We cannot afford Hillary and the New Democrats.

[Cal33]

89. What you say is true. How great it would be if Bernie wins! He would be the

first one to begin to really work on the vast problems facing our nation.
This is what we exactly need, and so desperately.

But if he loses, what other choices are there left? Hillary or a Republican.
And my post is mostly about this latter possibility (if not probability)
happening.

I most earnestly wish that Bernie would win. He would most definitely
work on the change our country so desperately needs.

[jwirr]

106. You are correct that we may be asked to make the hard

choices. But from what I have been hearing a lot of people do not see Hillary as any better than Trump.

[Cal33]

107. I think Hillary would help the Corporatists in many ways, but she would not help them at

changing our nation into a Fascist Dictatorship. A Republican president would.

[jwirr]

110. In that I agree.

[Live and Learn]

76. Yes I have. Hillary - needless war. Trump - gawd only knows. Either one and the climate loses.

I vote none of the above. nt

[Cal33]

91. Not voting means one less vote for the Democrats. It's helping the Republicans to win. And

this will increase the possibility of having a Fascist Dictatorship take over our nation. Hillary
means maintaining the status quo (most likely). There will still be some hope for a future
Progressive Democracy.

[Live and Learn]

96. The climate won't wait. Hillary will continue the march towards oligarchy and economic injustice.

Still, none of the above.

[seekthetruth]

80. If you'd vote for Clinton at all....

....then YOU JUST DO NOT GET IT.

Hillary is just as bad as Trump. With him, we know it'll be a shit storm. With her, it'll be a well concealed shit storm.

[Cal33]

93. Here you and I differ. I don't think Hillary is as bad as Trump or any other Republican. Hence,

our difference in opinions.

[seekthetruth]

113. Looking at the long run......

Both candidates are willing to engage in disastrous foreign policy directions, with the America- first mindset. And most importantly, both are willing to further damage our environment by engaging in unsustainable energy solutions, and thus continue to kick the can down the road to real energy innovation. Both ignore the real needs for cap and trade.

Additionally, I simply do not trust either candidate to stand up to Wall Street. I know Clinton continually tells us that she told Wall Street to cut it out or else, but, again, it's hard to trust her with so many ties to the financial elites.

Sure, Clinton would select a better Supreme Court justice nominee, but if they're not willing to overturn Citizens United, what's the point?

Given these circumstances, I simply do not see a difference between the two besides packaging of the candidates' messaging and demeanor.

[Cal33]

114. What makes you think the 5th Democratically appointed SupremeCourt Justice would not be

willing to overturn Citizens United?

[seekthetruth]

115. Who cares?

You do realize that we're nearly at the tipping point in our ability to change the course of global warming, right?

Or do you care more about seeing your candidate win?

I think it's the latter.....

[Cal33]

116. I do care about both -- as do millions of Sanders supporters. You were the one who brought up

the point of Citizens United. If you really didn't care, Why did you bring it up?

[seekthetruth]

118. Dear God....

BECAUSE CLIMATE CHANGE IS A MUCH MORE PRESSING ISSUE THAN THE NEXT SUPREME COURT JUSTICE!!!

Hilary's support for fracking is what, along with her propensity for supporting war, and her support for neoliberalism, makes her a conservative candidate.

Get it?

[Cal33]

136. I agree that we should have and could have switched over to solar, wind and tide power some

40 years ago, when Jimmy Carter was president. He tried, but Big Oil and others fought
against it tooth and nail, and won. And they are still winning. I must say that I don't
understand how Carter failed.

One can become so obsessed with greed, that one can no longer think clearly -- not even
with self-destruction and death staring at them and at the whole planet in the face.

I feel sorry for the younger people.

[tonyt53]

83. Most Sander supporters won't vote in the general election anyway

By November, most of these "new" voters Bernie has supporting him won;t bother even voting in November, even if Bernie was the nominee. Most have never been politically motivated for long enough.

[Cal33]

94. I've read somewhere that 33% of voting Sanders supporters would not vote for Hillary. Others

might have different figures. Maybe this could be balanced by large numbers of Republicans who
would not vote for Trump.

We are living in interesting times. Both the Republican and Democratic front-runners have the
highest negative rating in the history of our nation - a little over 60%! It is crazy!!

[seekthetruth]

119. I'll vote.

Just not for Her Majesty. I won't have any part in further bloodshed in the Middle East.

We need peace, and we need to stop raping the earth for fossil fuels.

Please, defend that for your candidate.

[pdsimdars]

86. Speaking of looking at the big picture . . . how is it that you are not aware that this is not

the GE?

What we are currently going through is called a "primary election". That is where people are deciding on the best candidate to run in that GE.

That is why the Bernie people keep wanting to discuss ISSUES and not this crap. If you refuse to FOCUS on the task at hand, you will always mess things up down the line. So, is it possible to step away from the talking memes and get on to ISSUES?

Here is a good ISSUE question that I have never heard an answer for.





Let's hear it. What are the issues Hillary stands for that you are so committed to?

[Cal33]

97. I am very well aware that this is not the GE. I am also aware that Sanders chances of

winning are not that great. And as long as he is running, I am for him all the way.

This post is about if Sanders were to lose.

[pdsimdars]

99. You don't appear to be aware this is not the GE because your attention is not here.

In your original post your attention is on speculation about the GE and also this post here is about the GE.

That MEANS that your are NOT focused on the task at hand but elsewhere, just as I pointed out.
And if you don't focus on the job in front of you, you will not have laid the foundation for the future and that will fail.

Again, you are SPECULATING about the FUTURE instead of focusing on the present. A sure setup for failure. This is called wisdom. . . pay attention.

[Betty Karlson]

90. Could you guys make up your minds already? One OP tells us that Clinton

"doesn't want us and doesn't need us" and the next one tries that (way too often used) emotional blackmail about "but the other side is even worse and how can you not vote for the lesser of two evils don't you see the big picture"?

Yeah, we see the big picture. We see an establishment that doesn't want us. And hurts us. And we are done with it. Done with both sides of it, actually.

If you need us: listen to us and change your ways. Stop clinging to that untenable status quo. It's not about going left or right: it's about long overdue change.

If you don't need us: stop with the emotional blackmail already. Party on like it's 1999 and see how many more years you can keep your precious precious status quo.

[Cal33]

98. I am not blackmailing anybody - emotionally or otherwise. As long as Bernie is running, I

am all for him. But we've also got to look at things as they are. I am also
aware that the chances of Bernie's winning are not that great - what with
all the cheating that's very likely taking place. At this moment I don't know if the
court case in New York is still going on. The Republicans have been practicing
election and voter fraud (half-way openly) ever since Bush, Jr. And they have
become more and more daring, since Democrats seldom complained much. This
New York case came as a happy surprise for me.

My post is mostly about what might possibly happen should Bernie lose the
Primaries. I hope this won't happen. It won't be pleasant. It's also good to be
prepared for as many eventualities as one can think of.

[seekthetruth]

121. The Democratic status quo has been in place for decades.

....and it needs to be broken up into little pieces. This includes Obama.

Definitely was happy to have him be the first black president..... Was so sad to see some of the things he didn't focus enough on.

Before any Hiilarians go crazy, yes the ACA was a good step in the right direction.... But we need UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE NOW!

[Beacool]

92. People who currently support Sanders and won't support Hillary in November are shortsighted fools.

Particularly those who are young and won't vote for her or vote third party. Why? Because they are the ones who will be most affected by a Trump presidency. Personally, it wouldn't affect me much one way or another. I don't have college debt, I'm financially set and I don't even have to consider whether I want a child or not.

Nonetheless, I would walk through fire to vote against Trump, regardless of who was the Democratic nominee. I don't get people who have to have the candidate of their choice or nobody. If the 17M people who voted for Hillary in 2008 had stayed home, the outgoing president would be McCain and his VP, Sarah Palin. Just think about that for a moment. How different would the country be if those two had been in office for the last 8 years. I cringe to think about it.

[Cal33]

100. Maybe we wouldn't even have the right to vote by now. Who knows? My priority now is to

keep the Republicans out of the presidency, and to increase the numbers of Liberals and
Progressives in Congress and in the Supreme Court - for a change.

[MFM008]

101. Cal33

Nice try a reasoning. I tried. Its impossible.
Like when I sent my 2 year old to his room, he keeps whining.
like my cat wandering around the house he just wants to whine.
like republicans on everything, they just want to whine.

[Jester Messiah]

102. When she loses, maybe the DNC will think twice before trying another corporatist.

Repub-lite needs to lose and lose big so that they get the message that this shit is unacceptable.

[Cal33]

103. If she loses, within a few years there might be only 1 political Party left, whatever

name they should choose for themselves. And if there still is voting, it might
be a voting system that's for show only -- a la former USSR. We might become
a country under Fascist Dictatorship. The Internet might come Big Brother's
censorship altogether. We might as well enjoy the freedoms that we still have
left now.

[TheKentuckian]

117. We are already a one party country. the money party though it has two right wings

One is secular the other proto theocratic but the main difference is constituency rather than ideology.

[Cal33]

124. Yes. We do have the Corporate Power people with 2 right wings, the 2nd wing being a part

of the Democratic Party. And Bernie Sanders is trying to keep the other portion of the
Democratic Party alive -- and against huge odds. He is doing his best to resuscitate
the half-dead portion.

[silvershadow]

104. I'm a Union Labor guy. I've been looking at the big picture since Reagan and Bill. nt

[Myrina]

105. Yes I have.

Guilt, bullying, poo-poohing, name calling and finger pointing by the other candidate's supporters does nothing to change my decision.

[Andy823]

108. Every election it's the same old shit

People come on DU and try and convince others here NOT to vote because "they are the same", or in Hillary's case the use right wing talking points in a scorched earth tactic to make others not want to vote for her. The vast majority of those who spread the "I won't vote for Hillary" meme, most likely have never voted for a Democrat in their life, and never will. Their agenda is not to help Democrats get elected, but to suppress the vote because they know when Democrats get out and vote, republicans lose. We have some long time right wingers here who have done this since President Obama took office, and are still going strong. This year has been a record number of newbies coming here to spew their right wing hate fest, and the work both sides of isle. Real Democrats, Liberals, and Progressives "WILL" vote for the nominee, no matter who it is because they know how bad it would be if one of the morons from the GOP party ended up in the WH.

Once the nominee is called, the vast majority of them will leave. Others will stay and do their best to carry on the hate they had for President Obama, and transfer that to which ever candidate wins and takes the GE, and we will win the GE. Some will go to far and end up banned eventually, but they will always keep trying to stop real Democrats form voting.

[AgingAmerican]

120. Those who insist on her being the nominee: have you taken a good look at the Big-Picture?

Because she cannot win a general election.

[Cal33]

125. Apparently they see a Party that is working for the benefit of ALL the American people as

being more dangerous than a Party that is making the rich richer, and at the expense
of the Middle-Class and the Poor.

[nolawarlock]

123. I think most will come around.

There are many who were always the third party type that come over for Bernie. I don't think most Democrats of the last hundred years would be to their liking—and I certainly hope none from the previous hundred would be.

It's a shame peopled don't see the difference between Trump or Cruz and Hillary. The fans of Trump and Cruz certainly see the difference. They recognize her for the liberal that she is. All of this hullaballoo is over truly minor differences. Read Hillary's website positions. That she has a whole page on climate change when people on the right believe it's junk science, that ought to make people very afraid of the Republicans this year. Both Romney and McCain were far more progressive than this new batch and they were terrifying enough.

Hopefully the third party types will give Hillary a chance. Even if they think she's the "lesser of two evils," which I do not believe, you're talking about a Grand Canyon sized chasm of evil between the two. Supporting any of the Republicans via passive action is tantamount to cutting your nose to spite your face and guaranteeing that, even if a Republican fires up the left to fight back in 2020, the Supreme Court will be lost for decades to come and Citizens United will become settled law.

[Kelvin Mace]

126. "We" will not elect a Republican

People who vote Republican will.

"We" have been told by the Clinton camp and her supporters here that "We" and our votes are not needed, HRC has this "in the bag" to quote one of her most recent supporters.

Have HRC's supporters considered the bigger picture?

[Cal33]

130. I agree that some of the Hillary supporters are making things worse for Hillary. Instead of

helping to turn around the Bernie supporters, they are actually making us more angry.
There is a huge lack in their understanding of human psychology.

[Kelvin Mace]

134. Absolutely,

but there are also her surrogates doing this, and she refuses to rein them in, so therefore such actions are carried out with her approval.

There are tons of ways that she could mend fences, but not only does she not take these steps, she flat out allows her surrogates to stoke the flames between her supporters and Sanders.

There is a good chance she can win the election without the liberal wing of the party, but not much chance she can accomplish anything as president.

[RKP5637]

127. I will vote for whomever the democratic nominee is with no problem. n/t

[KansDem]

128. "Republican Heavy" vs "Republican Lite"

Hmm...that's a toughie.

[Cal33]

131. An attempt to describe your point in one sentence: Republican Lites are the ones who

have one foot in each camp, and try to extract the benefits from both.

[CanadaexPat]

132. Who will start the least wars?

That's the only issue for me.

[Cal33]

135. There's no doubt that Bernie will start the least wars.

[ViseGrip]

133. I see a Trump win causing a HUGE win for house and senate in two years

and a chance for a PROGRESSIVE in another two. Or, we can have Hillary for another decade, and zero change, and more B.S.

I agree with this. So I won't take a loss so bad. As a matter of fact our loss will make the congress fucking miserable working with him. A dose of their own medicine.

Of course, backing Sanders stops all of this when you INCLUDE independents who actually get to vote too!

GO BERNIE SANDERS......THE ONLY CANDIDATE WHO WILL GET MY VOTE!

[Cal33]

139. You'd be right, if things continue on the way they are. I sure hope there will still be genuine

voting in America, if we should have a Republican for president. I have a feeling that
the Corporate Power people would go all out for a change-over into an Oligarchy this
time around - with either Cruz or Kasich. I'm uncertain about Trump. He is so very
unpredictable.

[dana_b]

137. enough with the lectures

people will vote their consciences and they should. If their consciences are different then yours, so be it.

And please, Bernie people, STOP this! It is NOT changing peoples minds. It actually pisses them off more because it sounds so condescending.

[EndElectoral]

138. Yes, I've looked at the big picture. This is precisely why I am not voting for HRC.

[raouldukelives]

140. Yes. The "big picture" is corporate money destroying democracy.

There are those that can proudly call themselves pro-democracy and there are those who assist them with personal investments.