Obama supports Clinton, but IMO he resonates more with Bernie's message and goals

[Armstead]

Personal note. I am a big fan of President Obama. If it were possible for him to have a third term, I'd be all for it. But I also have disagreements with him, and have been disappointed in things like his support for TPP. Overall, though I agree with his stated principles and philosophy, and I think he personally has great integrity, moral values and amazing intellect.

People on both sides like to conflate President Obama with Clinton, for better and worse. She herself like to portray herself as a 3rd Obama term. And Obama himself is obviously putting his thumb on the scale in her favor.

But I think it's more complicated than that, because Obama himself is more complicated than that. In his heart I believe has an Inner Berniebro.

He was a grasstoots organizer in Chicago, and IMO his message as the candidate of "Hope and Change" was sincere. He wanted to go to Washington as a "new broom" and shake the cobwebs out of the system, and move it in a more liberal direction. IMO he really meant it when he said he wanted those who supported him to "hold his feet to the fire" to keep him honest.

But he's also a "pragmatist" who works within the system and believes in the ideal of negotiation and "compromise." (To be honest, I believe in the same principles he does.) He also believes in civility, and that reasonable people can disagree but work together in good faith.

Problem is the system has become so corrupt and rotten that such ideals are difficult to put into practice. One reason is that the GOP has become so nasty and obstinate that they will block anything a Democrat does, just to advance their own power and prevent all liberal progress. Obama ran into that buzzsaw. He tried to compromise but got blocked at every turn by the GOP.

But the system is also rotten because too many Democrats have bought into it and/or become so cowardly they will not stand for principle to the same degree as the GOP. The Democrats have given the GOP so much power because too many either agree with them on certain points, or they do not see it as possible to advance truly liberal principles. Some have accepted the Corporate Worldview, and want to cash in on the corruption themselves.

So from the beginning, Obama was up against a two-front problem. The GOP and the corruption and complicity of the Democratic Party.

In just one example, he originally wanted to do the Bernie model of relying on donations from individuals rather than Corporate big bucks. But he felt it necessary to go the more traditional route of Big Bucks Donors and Corporate Wall St. Which affected the rest of his presidency.

So he became a divided figure. His ideals versus his "pragmatism." And pragmatic won out in his first term, and has colored his second. That's his Clintonian side.

But he also retains his initial idealism. In his second term (despite the TPP which he committed to early on) Obama has given the finger to the GOP and steadily rediscovered his "inner progressive." His administration, for example, has blocked several corporate mergers. He initiated executive orders as a FU to the GOP.

Another But.....In the election he has cast his lot with Clinton as the path of least resistance and the "electabolity" meme. . Personally he does not want his achievements to be unraveled by the GOP nor does he want an electoral rejection of his Presidency with a big loss....He is an Institutional Democrat, and he's also probably a little pissed at Bernie for his criticisms over the years.

And, I think his experiences have caused him to become more jaded and cynical, and believe that someone like Clinton is "the best we can do."

So yeah, he's cast his lot with Clinton. But I think it is with massively mixed feelings. In his heart, I think he'd prefer a candidate who is more like Bernie.

The question, however, is what is the next chapter for the Democrats. Does it revert to Clintonst Centrist Conservatism, or does it actually build on the more progressive legacy of Obama.....and the message and vision of Bernie and the (at least) 40 percent of the voters who prefers Sanders and progressive populism?

[JaneyVee]

1. Nah. Pretty sure he is all for Hillz.

Doubt he ever wants to campaign with a guy who trashed his presidency, called for a primary challenge, and voted against gun control. Not to mention he has 2 daughters and Bernie wrote some bizarre shit about women.

[Armstead]

3. Thank you for a typically deep response

[Baobab]

23. Trade Deals=Global Coup Against Democracy=Obama-Clinton-and-similar candidates doing this globally

When you're trying to put a framework in place that hijacks democracy, for the rich and multinational corporations all around the world.. well, fill in the rest.

So Neither Obama nor Clinton would support Bernie for one thing he's anti-privatization. Privatization is their religion, they are going to do absolutely everything they can, including all sorts of tricks like saying (pretending) FastTrack wa defeated and then making a deal to pass it. You can bet that Obama and the House and Senate will do their damnedest to pass TPP during the lame duck session.

Just like they passed CAFTA similarly by one vote in the middle of the night with disastrous results.

Legislators want "plausible denial" on these things so they are making it so hard to read them that that makes it easy for them to claim they were unable to.

Look up "Reading Rooms" in the context of the tranatlantic tra4e and investment partnership to see just how aggressively they are blocking the legislators from reading about TT.

The only way to vote Democratic and stop this impending nightmare for the middle class is to vote for Bernie. Trump is no better than Clinton. He clearly supports the slave like guest worker programs. (which were initially part of the Clintons Services deal - when we entered the WOT (transpose second and third letter)

[Sejon]

28. Considering what Hillary said about him in 2008, I doubt he would be as petty as that

Most of what you said is taken out of context anyway.

[djean111]

2. For me, who Obama supports is irrelevant.

He is on his way out. I, and everybody else, have to live with (under?) his replacement. He is set for life. As far as the future for myself, my family, my friends, for everyone - Obama is history, and we need to look forward.

[Gothmog]

4. Sanders would throw away President Obama's legacy

Sanders is not a fan of Obama or his legacy

[Armstead]

9. Sanders has a 3D view of Obama

I think he has a similar view that I do. he likes and supports much of what Obama has accomplished, but he also disagrees with him on some specifics and some aspects of his performance.

The underlying question is which aspects of Obama's legacy should be built on and which are less desirable.

[Gothmog]

14. Sanders lack of judgment makes Sanders a very poor choice to contine Obama's legacy

Sanders has one issue and has shown very poor judgment on a number of issues. For President Obama, Clinton is a far smarter option

I really think that Sanders would be a horrible general election candidate. He has not been vetteed because no one really thinks that Sanders has a chance of being the nominee. Sanders revolution had been a flop and Sanders would be very vulnerable to negative ads

[Armstead]

25. I'm not going to argue about Sanders personally -- That's a matter of opinion

But what sanders stands for and believes -- and the close to half of the primary voters who agree with him, is not as cut-and-dried and simplistic as you are portraying it.

[Gothmog]

37. Three million more votes is not that close

[snowy owl]

38. That is one tired meme. You don't discuss issues because you cannot. Armstead wins.

I think Armstead thought from your previous post you would be an interesting and reflective debater. But he was proved wrong.

[Armstead]

47. 12,524,845 -- 9,426,517

Pretty fucking close -- too close for dismissiveness if the democrats want to actually win and govern.

But some seem to think that winning is the only thing and nothing else matters.

Enjoy your little political game of fan football.

[TCJ70]

26. You understand that saying "We can do better" is not the same as throwing away a legacy, right?

We should always strive to do better. Otherwise we aren't moving anywhere. Sanders doesn't have anything against Obama or his legacy, just sees a better future is possible.

[Gothmog]

36. Sanders silky platform depended on a so called revolution that flopped

Sanders silly propsals depended on a revolution that would produce so many new voters that the GOP would have to listen to Sanders. I doubt there is such a number of new voters but by any standard Sanders revolution has been a failure.

I live in the real world where change is hard and does not depend on magical revolutions

[snowy owl]

39. Silly proposals. That others offer but we cannot - the richest nation cannot.

The only silly notion I see is yours. Tired of empty-headed people.

[pampango]

46. No. He would renegotiate trade agreements which is the same thing Obama has done. Bernie will,

I hope, negotiate better agreements. And he respects the rule of international law and will support and enforce the Iran, Paris, Cuba and other international agreements that Obama has negotiated.

Trump has no respect for international law and will rip up all of our international agreements. That's the essence of Trump's isolationism and is the big difference between Bernie and Trump.

How do you figure Bernie will throw away Obama's legacy. I think Bernie will extend it and make it better. Trump certainly won't. He would be the anti-Obama, anti-FDR.

[Gothmog]

48. There is far more to President Obama's legacy than trade deals

Sanders hates Obama's legacy and has attacked Obama. Wanting to primary President Obama is not a good sign that Sanders care about any of Obama's legacy

We are fortunate that Sanders has no chance of being the nominee

[beachbum bob]

5. pragmatism is not a bad thing...obama's strength has been in compromise and working out issues

not draw a line in the sand and say I'm taking my ball home....one reason why he has accomplished what he has been able to do...the same way Bill clinton did and the same way Hillary will.....politics is compromise and sometimes a policy is agreed to that does help our country and our people, sometimes not....I will say this Obama has never been a "pie in the sky" politician....and his pragmatism helped more than anything else......

[Armstead]

6. Compromise is apple pie...The devil is Always in the details

[snowy owl]

40. The right drew lines in the sand. Where was the compromise? He was ready to sell us down the river

on too many social issues. And please explain all the Wall Streeters in his administration?

[Mary Mac]

7. I agree there is overlap on many issues

But Trump is the shark on the horizon. Obama rescued us from a Depression and did the best he could with the Republicans. He doesn't get near enough credit.

[Armstead]

8. There is always a shark on the horizon

The question is HOW we beat back the sharks.

I agree Obama deserves a lot of credit for a lot of things. But he wasn't perfect.

[snowy owl]

42. Obama left home owners behind. $350M left on the table due to his timidity. 13 bankers shaking...

until he let them off the hook and they walked away knowing they could control him. Idolatry is what you do without facts. As for the depression, rescued us maybe but the threat is not over. And look what they did to the rest of the world. No, Obama was a weak President who is attempting to create a legacy for which he can be proud only the last two years. And even ACA is disputable in its effectiveness. When will people actually look at facts instead of personality. He is a nice guy with a great ability to sway by rhetoric which he didn't follow through on. And he's still riding the rhetoric.

[Demsrule86]

10. Well I guess Obama can decide who he wants to support

I don't recall candidate Obama being anywhere near as left as Bernie.

[Armstead]

12. Sounds similar to me

Last edited Sun May 15, 2016, 02:04 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/10/barackobama

All of us know what those challenges are today - a war with no end, a dependence on oil that threatens our future, schools where too many children aren't learning, and families struggling paycheck to paycheck despite working as hard as they can. We know the challenges. We've heard them. We've talked about them for years.

What's stopped us from meeting these challenges is not the absence of sound policies and sensible plans. What's stopped us is the failure of leadership, the smallness of our politics - the ease with which we're distracted by the petty and trivial, our chronic avoidance of tough decisions, our preference for scoring cheap political points instead of rolling up our sleeves and building a working consensus to tackle big problems.

For the last six years we've been told that our mounting debts don't matter, we've been told that the anxiety Americans feel about rising health care costs and stagnant wages are an illusion, we've been told that climate change is a hoax, and that tough talk and an ill-conceived war can replace diplomacy, and strategy, and foresight. And when all else fails, when Katrina happens, or the death toll in Iraq mounts, we've been told that our crises are somebody else's fault. We're distracted from our real failures, and told to blame the other party, or gay people, or immigrants.

And as people have looked away in disillusionment and frustration, we know what's filled the void. The cynics, and the lobbyists, and the special interests who've turned our government into a game only they can afford to play. They write the checks and you get stuck with the bills, they get the access while you get to write a letter, they think they own this government, but we're here today to take it back. The time for that politics is over. It's time to turn the page.

[Demsrule86]

15. More threats to take your ball and go home

so do it...don't care at the moment. I once thought Bernie was honorable but ...not anymore.

[Armstead]

24. Those were OBAMA's WORDS - Click the link and wipe the egg off your face

I suppose you should take your dismissive little memes up with him

[Demsrule86]

35. He was warning you all

And you have been threatening it in almost every post for weeks now. Make Bernie the nominee or else...is the meme.

[snowy owl]

44. His skills is his ability to write and deliver speeches. Maybe those will save his legacy-doubt it.

I don't care who he endorses because it is meaningless. Absolutely meaningless.

[BeyondGeography]

11. It's a heart and head deal

He sees himself in both candidates, I'm sure. Bernie has attracted Obamaesque crowds, not just size-wise but also attracting younger voters, and you know that hasn't escaped his attention/admiration. His "Trudging up the Hill," joke last week wasn't just something his writers came up with, IMO. Inspiration of the real type matters. At the same time he is very practical-minded and deeply respects HRC's knowledge of the full range of issues. At the end of the day he sees her as a better bet in Nov. and as President, but I do think he has a not-so-small spot in his heart for Bernie. As such, he will be a great unifier because he feels it.

[Armstead]

13. I agree but i don't think it's a simple matter of "heart and head"

That metaphor is often used.

However, what is often referred to as "heart" positions are also "head" solutions.

It is both more moral and more practical, for example, to push for a more clearcut way to keep the population healthy with universal and affordable public health coverage to replace a profit-driven, care-denying and overly expensive private insurance system

[Trust Buster]

16. You must have forgotten his recent Howard University speech that led Sanders supporters

to attack him. He generally called Sanders politically unrealistic. He is right.

[Armstead]

17. I don't recall his name being mentioned

Perhaps I missed it, or else Clinton partisans decided to hijack his long-time speech expressing his views going all the way back to his Purple State speech in 2004.

[Ferd Berfel]

18. Doesn't make sense

if so, why did Obama put Social Security on the chopping Block?
And why is he ramming the end of Government sovereignty down out throats with TPP?
Killing civilians with Drone Strikes?
etc

[Armstead]

19. The OP addressed that

I don't agree with those (except maybe the drone strikes, for complicated reasons). I think the SS was part of his misguided attempts to compromise with the GOP. TPP is a sellout to the agenda of the corporate globalists.

Overall I think Obama is a good man with liberal/progressive instincts, but got hijacked by the entrenched corruption of the system.

Sanders is a good man, but less subject to being influenced by entrenched corporate interests.

[Ferd Berfel]

20. Let's hope Bernie (having much more experience in the machine)

can keep that kind of influence at bay.

PS: I'm still not convinced that Obama had such incredibly crappy negotiating skills in the first term and a half. NO on is that lame at negotiating. It always seemed to me to be a Kabuki show in order to keep moving right.

Guess Obama has been a huge disappointment to me. I voted for him every time from Senate Primary on up.

[Armstead]

22. There were elements of the usual Kabuki for sure

[Skwmom]

21. Clinton in an unscipted debate moment on Obama: He is NO different then me. She was right.

[Go Vols]

27. Yes she was

"Obama says he'd be seen as moderate Republican in 1980s"

I didn't care for moderate R's then either.

[BootinUp]

29. Obama doesn't believe the "Hillary is corrupt and a corporatist" netroots meme

She has a history of fighting the establishment. Its with less mixed feelings that he casts his lot than you know.

[Armstead]

30. Fighting the establishment? She IS the establishment

Not her personally, but she is a product of a corrupt establishment that she and her husband helped to engineer and have handsomely profited from.

I could dig out links, but why bother?

As for Obama, I stand by my OP except to add that he's human and knows where the bread is buttered.

[BootinUp]

31. Explain how this fits your view of reality:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511964644

[Armstead]

32. It's a primary election

In the final days of the primary -- as she is trying to finish Sanders off -- she trots out progressive ideas like expanding Medicate eligibility and this one to look like she actually is a progressive

Why didn't she start out with such positions if she actually believes in them? Because she thought she wouldn't need to. She figured she could cinch it by being a nice social liberal while avoiding any difficult positions and issues.

Now that Sanders and the appx. 40 percent who have voted for him are being a thorn in her side, she has to pretend that she is just as progressive -- or more progressive.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-progressive-fed-reforms_us_5734c8fce4b060aa78199d25

Clinton had said virtually nothing about her agenda for the powerful central bank until now.

The Fed Up campaign, a coalition of progressive groups headed by the Center for Popular Democracy that has been at the forefront of recent efforts to make Federal Reserve reform a key part of the liberal agenda, confirmed that it has been in talks with the Clinton campaign for months.

“Secretary Clinton did the right thing today by coming out in favor of reforming the Federal Reserve,” said Ady Barkan, director of Fed Up. “We’re very excited that she listened to the voices of community leaders from around the country who have said that we need a Federal Reserve that reflects and represents the American people and that creates a strong economy for all.”

Wait until the General. It'll be back to the modern equivalent of Dick Morris Triangulation and school uniforms and v-chips and a chicken in every pot.

[BootinUp]

33. It strikes me that this particular proposal,

which reforms the Fed and how interest rates are established, removing the private banks from that process in favor of democratically selected members, strikes at the very heart
of the argument that she is somehow in collusion with the corportist world, wall street, etc. I am anxious to see what she can actually accomplish towards her very progressive platform. The platform that Bernie has helped to influence during this primary.

[Armstead]

34. I would feel a lot more comfortable if she had started...

with proposals like this voluntarily on her own initiative long before Bernie entered the presidential scene.

It would be easier to trust her, and to have faith that she honestly "gets it" and would follow through if elected.

I would love to be pleasantly surprised her performance two or there or four years from now. But I'm not hopeful.

[JI7]

41. a lot of Sanders supporters hate Obama

And that certainly has not helped sanders at all.

[andym]

43. This is why it's unfortunate that Elizabeth Warren did not run

She is as progressive as Bernie, but would be seen by Obama and others as someone who would continue his legacy. I think Obama and other institutional Democrats are afraid Bernie would lose after being McGovernized or Dukakisized. I think Bernie could withstand the GOP attacks, which is why I support him, but I think a lot of Democratic big wigs are just too afraid.

[snowy owl]

45. Warren needs to learn to lead first. Obama's problem was he ran too soon.

Let these people learn the ropes of real leadership. Let them find out who the bullies are and who can make the deals. Form some relationships and then use them to better purposes. Warren has certainly learned faster than either Clinton or Obama but I want her to be ready before she runs for the top job. She is the real leader and her work in the Senate and even before her Senate was far more worthy of our attention than anything Clinton or Obama did before running for President.

She and Bernie together in the Senate might actually get the progressive caucus to leave their mark. Hopefully, they will be a little more energetic knowing so much of America is behind them. If not, we will continue to have Republicans in office for a very long time. The DNC has alienated an awful lot of people.