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Sun May 15, 2016, 12:42 PM

 

Saying "let it get worse" is immoral.

Some here have continued rationalizing their position to 'never' vote for Hillary, even when she alone is running against Trump. They have said "let it get worse".

There is simply no way to justify telling the millions of Americans who would have their lives ruined by a Republican presidency to suck it up and live with the pain and misery, in the faint hope that it will create a 'revolution' down the road. First of all, we're supposed to be working to make things better, which that plan doesn't do. Second, there's no guarantee that letting the world go to rot would result in the kind of change you want, so you're risking everything on an assumption. Sorry, but I can't do that.

What we are seeing here is that the most liberal wing of the party isn't the majority, and they can't handle it. Rather than come up with better ideas that might convince the rest of us to go along, they resort to calling us corporate, corrupt, and in many posts on this site they are now directly taking words from Trump by parroting his "crooked Hillary" garbage. You want to know why we pick the 'corporate' candidate? She's better, and we don't want to associate with people using the tactics the so-called 'progressives' have taken up.

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Arrow 48 replies Author Time Post
Reply Saying "let it get worse" is immoral. (Original post)
CrowCityDem May 2016 OP
PowerToThePeople May 2016 #1
AgingAmerican May 2016 #2
timmymoff May 2016 #3
Aerows May 2016 #10
vintx May 2016 #30
Aerows May 2016 #4
bettyellen May 2016 #11
Aerows May 2016 #18
bettyellen May 2016 #20
Aerows May 2016 #21
bettyellen May 2016 #22
hack89 May 2016 #43
whatchamacallit May 2016 #5
Armstead May 2016 #6
LiberalElite May 2016 #7
tokenlib May 2016 #8
woolldog May 2016 #9
timmymoff May 2016 #12
Aerows May 2016 #14
Sejon May 2016 #16
lumberjack_jeff May 2016 #19
vintx May 2016 #32
TCJ70 May 2016 #13
CrowCityDem May 2016 #15
dchill May 2016 #31
lumberjack_jeff May 2016 #17
Go Vols May 2016 #25
CorkySt.Clair May 2016 #36
lumberjack_jeff May 2016 #44
CorkySt.Clair May 2016 #46
lumberjack_jeff May 2016 #48
Live and Learn May 2016 #23
woolldog May 2016 #24
Go Vols May 2016 #27
Sejon May 2016 #29
timmymoff May 2016 #33
CorkySt.Clair May 2016 #37
nadinbrzezinski May 2016 #26
northernsouthern May 2016 #28
dchill May 2016 #34
libdem4life May 2016 #35
LWolf May 2016 #38
CrowCityDem May 2016 #39
LWolf May 2016 #40
Broward May 2016 #41
basselope May 2016 #42
Vote2016 May 2016 #45
Tierra_y_Libertad May 2016 #47

Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:43 PM

1. That is why I vote for Bernie

 

because I will not "let it get worse."

Your OP says in no uncertain terms that your position is immoral.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:44 PM

2. Then vote for Sanders

 

Cuz it will get worse under her

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:45 PM

3. It's up to you supporters of Hillary to get busy

 

I won't be making it worse, you may. We've been told enough times how we aren't needed, so get crackin'!

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Response to timmymoff (Reply #3)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:56 PM

10. I remember several times

 

that being said by a variety of Hillary Clinton supporters, that Bernie Sanders supporters didn't matter and Hillary Clinton doesn't need to worry about appealing to Sanders supporters because she "won".

The "winner" doesn't need to address any of the concerns of the supporters of somebody else in the primary, heck, Hillary said it herself in so many words. It wasn't an isolated incident by any means.

I mean if we want to talk about morality, there is that one of the seven deadly ones called Pride.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #10)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:33 PM

30. She's not at all interested in getting liberal votes. She's moving right, and her Dem supporters are

 

fine with that, because they apparently fucking LOVE the third way bullshit.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:45 PM

4. Same response

 

as the two before me: Then vote for Bernie Sanders.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #4)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:57 PM

11. If Hillary is the Dem candidate, I would love to see a lot of the South turn bluer.....

 

I think we have a stab at Georgia, and breaking up the GOP stronghold on a lot of the South with her candidacy.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #11)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:09 PM

18. Flipping Georgia

 

is indeed possible. I do my part for Democratic state politicians, because after all, politics start local.

We've got to do something about the freaking House and Senate. The gerrymandering bs has ruined many states and we have got to get Congress back to D to do anything about it, and we have to have state officials that aren't lunatic Republicans (I repeated myself there!) - state Attorney Generals have a lot of power, and that's a key position that D's need to fill in their states.

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Response to Aerows (Reply #18)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:12 PM

20. I keep telling people to think local too! I get so tired hearing of people pinning their hopes on

 

the POTUS when it is so much more complicated than that. So, thanks for pushing for local involvement! So very important. I'm always going to cal it Flipping Georia now. HA.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #20)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:14 PM

21. LOL! I didn't realize it until you said it!

 

I did structure that post in a rather unintentionally ambiguous way, didn't I?

Flipping Georgia!

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Response to Aerows (Reply #21)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:17 PM

22. I'm imaging it in a cockney accent. Hee hee.

 

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Response to Aerows (Reply #4)

Sun May 15, 2016, 02:56 PM

43. It is too late for that

Bernie cannot be the nominee- he is too far behind.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:47 PM

5. It's even more immoral to use this reasoning to keep things in stasis or slow decline

One step forward, two steps back incrementalism is fraud.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:49 PM

6. It's a hell of a lot more complex than that

 

It is not just some crazy radical fringe against the majority of Democrats, as you so lazily characterize it.

There are differing shades of opinion, paradoxes and degrees of emotional investment among the electorate.There are millions of people involved, and many variations among them.

For example, I personally know several people who basically say "I don't really like Clinton, and I agree with Bernie and his ideas. But I don't think he could get elected, so I have to support Clinton." Not exactly a rousing condemnation of Sanders or endorsement of Clinton.

That's just in my own circle. I suspect you can expand that out more widely.

The sooner this notion that this is a monolithic problem, the better.


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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:51 PM

7. Let Clinton be the nominee and it WILL get worse eom

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:52 PM

8. That is the same BS argument the Third Way has used..

..since 1992. no more enabling the Third Way.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 12:54 PM

9. Bernie is the candidate of privileged whites,

 

who have the least to lose from a Trump presidency. Hence the BOB "trend"

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Response to woolldog (Reply #9)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:00 PM

12. Tell me about my privilege

 

since you know about me. Tell me about what I have dealt with the last five years. Tell me why I left a job and took one for less pay. I need you to address my privilege since we are on such great terms. I anxiously await your response from the many times we have spoke about issues in my personal life. So tell me wooldog, what's been up with ol' timmymoff?

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Response to woolldog (Reply #9)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:03 PM

14. Well that's a good way

 

to get Sanders supporters on the Clinton bus (not). I would imagine that out of all of the PoC, LGBT, working poor who would greatly benefit from medicare for all, unemployed or under employed and those on this very board who have stated that they belong in one or more of the aforementioned groups, it would shock the everliving fuckout of them to discover that they are privileged whites after all.

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Response to woolldog (Reply #9)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:06 PM

16. Having the luxury of being able to vote for someone because they want a woman President

 

Is the definition of privilege. Bernie supporters do not have that luxury.

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Response to woolldog (Reply #9)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:10 PM

19. Does having our votes count, qualify as a privilege? n/t

 

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Response to woolldog (Reply #9)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:35 PM

32. Wrong. Being eager to support a Third Way New Dem is what requires privilege.

 

That or ignorance of the 4-decade long rightward shift and what it means for those in poverty.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:02 PM

13. Better ideas?

Which of these ideas do you disagree with:
- Single payer
- Affordable/Free public college
- Holding our police accountable
- Protecting the environment
- Increasing the minimum wage
- War as a LAST resort

These are only a few of the ideas the Sanders campaign has pushed. If you like all of those things, and want a candidate who has a well documented history of consistency on left-leaning issues, Sanders is the only choice.

Maybe the party establishment should have chosen a better candidate to throw all their weight behind. Speaking of that, it's a little dismissive to describe the most liberal wing of the party as simply "not the majority". 43%. That's how much of the vote Sanders has received this round. Not 5%...not 10%...43%. Hillary hasn't trounced anyone. She's not land sliding anyone. She's hanging on...and that's it. She may be winning, but it's not like it's an overwhelming majority.

There are serious economic issues coming at us. Issues like automation that threaten to eliminate jobs on a huge scale. I can already go to Red Robin and order on a device, eat my food, and pay on that same device. The only human that needs to come see me is the one that bring me my meal. Status quo isn't going to deal with that. It's going to take a change in how we do things.

There are serious environmental concerns come at us as well. If Hillary's answer is to promote more fracking which aside from climate impact has ground water impact, I'll pass.

I know what you'll say "change happens form the ground up...get started there". Well, it doesn't hurt to have a solid advocate for these things at the top either. So, no. I can't settle for Hillary. The Democratic Party needs a wake up call that "better than the other guy" isn't enough.

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Response to TCJ70 (Reply #13)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:05 PM

15. Change 'single payer' to 'expanded' or 'universal' health care...

 

and Hillary supports those positions too. Maybe not quite as fervently, but she does.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Reply #15)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:35 PM

31. "Expanded" to include...

the poor, underprivileged insurance companies.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:09 PM

17. JFK was right

 



Time to push the reset button.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #17)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:23 PM

25. +1

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #17)

Sun May 15, 2016, 02:25 PM

36. So get out from behind the keyboard and get to work

 

Or is it just a lot of big talk?

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Response to CorkySt.Clair (Reply #36)

Sun May 15, 2016, 03:14 PM

44. I'm 3-out-of-five running for elective office. You? n/t

 

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #44)

Sun May 15, 2016, 03:17 PM

46. Running for office wasn't what your were intimating

 

With the Kennedy meme. As I thought, just a bunch of talk.

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Response to CorkySt.Clair (Reply #46)

Sun May 15, 2016, 03:30 PM

48. Here on the internet it's all talk, and yes, roughly 30x as much of it as you, Corky. n/t

 

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:18 PM

23. It is immoral to vote for an immoral candidate. nt

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:18 PM

24. The extreme left is no different than the extreme right.

 

Both childish, throw tantrums when they don't get their way, susceptible to the latest conspiracy theories, prefer demagoguery over pragmatism, overwhelmingly privileged. The similarities are striking. Thankfully they havent taken over the party as the tea party has overtaken the GOP.

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Response to woolldog (Reply #24)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:28 PM

27. D's ain't what they used to be.

In the late 1970s, as large corporations turned into transnational giants, they pumped huge amounts of cash into the political system. This largesse lured, first, the Republican Party, in the 80s, followed by the Democratic Party in the 90s, and precipitated a rightward political shift as both parties rewrote their policies to compete for the same corporate contributions.

Before this, from 1932-1976, the Democratic Party as a whole was far more progressive. The issues and approaches advocated today by Bernie Sanders were considered mainstream Democratic ideas by Franklin D. Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy, and Lyndon Johnson, and even many moderate Republicans. It was common to support strict financial regulation, liberal immigration, social services for the poor, and progressive tax policies.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-brasunas/there-is-a-moderate-republican-in-this-race_b_9704194.html

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Response to woolldog (Reply #24)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:32 PM

29. Everyone is the "extreme left" when compared to Hillary

 

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Response to woolldog (Reply #24)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:36 PM

33. The conservative left is no different than the conservative right

 

Which will possibly be our only choices , there was a time when we had the ability to tell the parties apart but not since the third way took over. you should be extremely proud of your accomplishment bringing the party to the right while commenting on privilege. I noticed you hadn't the courage or gumption to respond to my post, but alas, like most Hillary supporters and Hillary herself, to scared to fight for anything substantial. Must be fear of alienating the donor base.

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Response to woolldog (Reply #24)

Sun May 15, 2016, 02:27 PM

37. I think they may be more loony than the far right

 

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:25 PM

26. Don't worry. As you become a more conservative

 

Party, right wing and all, the left wing you despise will leave. Alas you still need their vote this year

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:30 PM

28. Saying vote for corruption or else it is immoral...

 

...is not only immoral, but corrupt as well.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:37 PM

34. Let it get worse.

It will anyway. ANY candidate who takes Wall Street or SuperPAC money will see to it.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 01:49 PM

35. I'm not going to weigh in much either away until these Investigations

 

are complete. And, for those who tend to hyperventilate, I'm not wishing ill. I'm wishing completion...over...done...cloud either verified or disproved. Indictment or Cleared. Because it will have an effect...perhaps a dire effect...on our democracy, and potentially looking like a banana republic.

Hell, we already need Jimmy Carter and his poll watchers...that he trained South of the Border. And again, for the same bunch, that's not partisan. It's about democracy and the cleaning up the current swamp that have cast our politics into a situation that our forefathers could not imagine...even without the internet and social media.

I would ask Hillary supporters to consider this. If not, why? The investigation is in process and has most waiting for the other shoe to drop. The voting system is broken.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 02:27 PM

38. No, they haven't, but thanks for the

twisted attempt.

Using your logic, then every single time a Democrat casts a vote for a neo-liberal, that Democrat is saying "let it get worse."

Because that's what happens.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #38)

Sun May 15, 2016, 02:28 PM

39. There have absolutely been people...

 

following the Susan Sarandon lead, arguing that electing Trump would hasten the 'revolution'.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Reply #39)

Sun May 15, 2016, 02:29 PM

40. Well, it might.

But that doesn't negate my point.

Edited to add, because I know it needs to be:

I have not, do not now, and will not be, advocating any support at all for Donald Trump.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 02:35 PM

41. You should've voted for Bernie.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 02:51 PM

42. It gets worse either way...

 

I won't vote for a republican, so that rules out both Clinton and Trump...

This is an even worse choice than bush v Kerry.

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 03:16 PM

45. Saying amputate that gangrenous foot is immoral

 

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Response to CrowCityDem (Original post)

Sun May 15, 2016, 03:21 PM

47. Tsk. Tsk. Poor Hillary.

 

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