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Tue May 17, 2016, 12:28 PM

The Sound of Silence

“I’m not going to sit at your table and watch you eat, with nothing on my plate, and call myself a diner. Sitting at the table doesn’t make you a diner.”
-- Minister Malcolm X


The chances of a reconciliation within the Democratic Party were greatly reduced by events in Nevada last week. The growing sense of entitlement on the part of the party’s establishment resulted in flagrant misconduct by officials Once again, the Clinton campaign displayed its Animal Farm belief that while all animals are equal, some are more equal than others.

Perhaps more disturbing has been the reaction of those supporting Hillary who recognize that if she is the nominee, Clinton will need substantial support from the progressive community. Without it, she would be at risk of losing. Clearly, the Democratic Party’s establishment’s undemocratic behaviors could result in a Trump presidency. Clinton’s other supporters, by pretending that corruption is somehow okay -- just part of the game -- would likewise be responsible if Donald Trump is elected.

As we approach the July convention in Philadelphia, several things are certain. Neither Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders will have won enough delegates to win the nomination. Clinton does have a lead in both votes and delegates. However, the corrupt actions by the establishment in Nevada are not a one-time, isolated incident. Rather, they are part of a pattern.

Clinton’s supporters tend to either deny that her political machine engages in unethical behavior, or to simply view it how political contests are fought. The Clinton machine mocks the Sanders supporters for attempting to make their cheating an issue. Politics isn’t a pillow fight, of course, but as history shows, the manner a candidate campaigns always indicates the manner in which they will “serve,” if elected. Perhaps the most important example of this is found in Richard Nixon.

Clinton would face a tough fight with Trump. Bernie would thrash Donald. Yet the “super delegates” -- those animals who are more equal than all others -- are posed to support Clinton. Most had declared their support for Hillary before Bernie Sanders entered the primary contest. Even in states were Sanders won the primary -- including where he won literally every county in the state -- the “super delegates” still are supporting Clinton. Obviously, the establishment has an agenda that does not respect the will of the voters.

“There comes a time,” Martin Luther King, Jr., warned us, “when silence is betrayal.” That time has arrived for the Democratic Party. The open and aggressive betrayal of the rules of fairness in Nevada is unacceptable. As an active participant in the Sanders revolution, I do not expect the establishment to acknowledge their wrong-doing. For they have no respect for the will of the people. They have no conscience.

Thus, it is the responsibility of the “average” citizen who supports Hillary Clinton to speak up. This includes the need for them to address the issues of corruption with the Clinton machine, and to engage in a civil discourse with the Sanders’s supporters. The progressive community -- including members of the Democratic Party and the independents of the Democratic Left -- know that the Clinton machine is convinced that we have “no where else to go” if the general election pits Clinton versus Trump. For they demand a level of loyalty to the party that they do not share.

But the grass roots’ supporters of Hillary know better. Many of them have begun parroting the machine’s threat that if progressives don’t fall in line, they will be responsible for electing Trump. This includes the fiction that anything but a vote for Clinton equals a vote for Trump -- solid evidence that public education needs more focus on basic math. The truth is that the establishment is most responsible for opening the door to a possible Trump presidency.

The people at the grass roots level who support Hillary also have responsibility here. For they are classic enablers. And it is this, and this alone, that serves as the first stumbling block that prevents the supporters of the two Democratic candidates from engaging in any meaningful discourse today. If it continues to become more entrenched before the July convention, and the establishment picks Clinton for its nominee, there will be little chance of us finding common ground. But, if they act upon conscience, it keeps the door open for all of us to identify some common ground in Philadelphia …..including the possibility that from there, we could move together to higher ground.

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Arrow 133 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Sound of Silence (Original post)
H2O Man May 2016 OP
Skwmom May 2016 #1
H2O Man May 2016 #4
Vincardog May 2016 #10
closeupready May 2016 #52
840high May 2016 #55
PufPuf23 May 2016 #92
beaglelover May 2016 #2
H2O Man May 2016 #6
adigal May 2016 #30
CorporatistNation May 2016 #84
timmymoff May 2016 #31
mindwalker_i May 2016 #40
Armstead May 2016 #41
uponit7771 May 2016 #80
Fast Walker 52 May 2016 #85
BillZBubb May 2016 #130
Fast Walker 52 May 2016 #131
KPN May 2016 #126
beaglelover May 2016 #128
KPN May 2016 #129
NRaleighLiberal May 2016 #3
H2O Man May 2016 #5
seekthetruth May 2016 #7
DebbieCDC May 2016 #8
farleftlib May 2016 #89
Silver_Witch May 2016 #96
seekthetruth May 2016 #97
RKP5637 May 2016 #101
peace13 May 2016 #105
Merryland May 2016 #9
H2O Man May 2016 #15
seekthetruth May 2016 #61
rhett o rick May 2016 #75
fasttense May 2016 #82
Silver_Witch May 2016 #99
Silver_Witch May 2016 #98
fasttense May 2016 #125
jpmonk91 May 2016 #11
H2O Man May 2016 #18
jpmonk91 May 2016 #24
H2O Man May 2016 #69
pmorlan1 May 2016 #12
Merryland May 2016 #13
pmorlan1 May 2016 #14
H2O Man May 2016 #19
Schema Thing May 2016 #16
H2O Man May 2016 #21
ChiciB1 May 2016 #17
H2O Man May 2016 #23
Sheepshank May 2016 #20
H2O Man May 2016 #25
BeyondGeography May 2016 #22
H2O Man May 2016 #26
Hiraeth May 2016 #33
Dem2 May 2016 #54
eastwestdem May 2016 #27
H2O Man May 2016 #42
Ferd Berfel May 2016 #28
H2O Man May 2016 #43
adigal May 2016 #29
H2O Man May 2016 #44
dana_b May 2016 #32
H2O Man May 2016 #34
dana_b May 2016 #35
VulgarPoet May 2016 #36
H2O Man May 2016 #45
leeroysphitz May 2016 #37
H2O Man May 2016 #46
sadoldgirl May 2016 #38
H2O Man May 2016 #47
kgnu_fan May 2016 #39
H2O Man May 2016 #49
kgnu_fan May 2016 #56
G_j May 2016 #48
H2O Man May 2016 #50
G_j May 2016 #58
Blue_In_AK May 2016 #124
nadinbrzezinski May 2016 #51
H2O Man May 2016 #53
Uncle Joe May 2016 #57
H2O Man May 2016 #64
Nye Bevan May 2016 #59
H2O Man May 2016 #65
Snarkoleptic May 2016 #88
mrdmk May 2016 #127
Carolina May 2016 #60
H2O Man May 2016 #66
AzDar May 2016 #62
H2O Man May 2016 #67
Martin Eden May 2016 #63
H2O Man May 2016 #68
ancianita May 2016 #70
H2O Man May 2016 #72
Tuesday_Morning May 2016 #71
H2O Man May 2016 #73
mmonk May 2016 #74
H2O Man May 2016 #76
seabeyond May 2016 #77
H2O Man May 2016 #78
glowing May 2016 #81
seabeyond May 2016 #91
glowing May 2016 #93
seabeyond May 2016 #94
slipslidingaway May 2016 #79
H2O Man May 2016 #111
Scuba May 2016 #83
RKP5637 May 2016 #103
H2O Man May 2016 #112
me b zola May 2016 #86
H2O Man May 2016 #113
Bonobo May 2016 #87
H2O Man May 2016 #114
Progressive dog May 2016 #90
chervilant May 2016 #106
Progressive dog May 2016 #132
H2O Man May 2016 #115
Silver_Witch May 2016 #95
H2O Man May 2016 #116
chervilant May 2016 #100
H2O Man May 2016 #117
AuntPatsy May 2016 #102
H2O Man May 2016 #118
RKP5637 May 2016 #104
H2O Man May 2016 #119
Seeinghope May 2016 #107
H2O Man May 2016 #120
Jitter65 May 2016 #108
H2O Man May 2016 #121
myrna minx May 2016 #109
H2O Man May 2016 #122
John Poet May 2016 #110
H2O Man May 2016 #123
geek tragedy May 2016 #133

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:30 PM

1. The Democratic Establishment gave us Clinton. They own it.


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Response to Skwmom (Reply #1)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:35 PM

4. I agree.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #4)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:51 PM

10. You break it you own it.

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Response to Skwmom (Reply #1)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:39 PM

52. Yup.

 

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Response to Skwmom (Reply #1)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:52 PM

55. .+1

 

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Response to Skwmom (Reply #1)

Wed May 18, 2016, 08:42 AM

92. Yep. But they will still find the antiwar liberals as scape goats. eom

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:31 PM

2. "Clinton would face a tough fight with Trump. Bernie would thrash Donald."

This is such bullshit. Bernie has not even begun to be vetted by the GOP. Once the GOP educates the rubes about Bernie's communist and extreme socialist beliefs and tell everyone that Bernie will raise EVERYONE's taxes, Trump will probably win every state and all the electoral votes. Bernie could NEVER win a GE.

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #2)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:37 PM

6. Thank you.

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #2)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:43 PM

30. You cant speak with certainty of a future event

 

Just like I think Hillary will lose to Donald, but I am not certain of it. I wouldn't say NEVER or ALWAYS. It's not realistic.

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Response to adigal (Reply #30)

Wed May 18, 2016, 07:38 AM

84. The Supers Have The Ball In Their Hands...

Nominate Hillary ... AND LOSE... GOING AWAY! Or Nominate Bernie... AND WIN... GOING AWAY!

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #2)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:44 PM

31. Hillary's been vetted by the american people

 

thus the high negatives. Enjoy.

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #2)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:15 PM

40. Oh no, socialism!

We have socialism, for corporations. It comes in many forms from tax breaks, to legal loopholes, to bailouts. That point could easily be made by Bernie.

But, you know that 8-hour workday that we enjoy, and those weekends? Those came from socialists. You know all those nice programs like unemployment and social security that make society work a lot better? Socialists. Taken a look at the Scandanavian countries?

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #2)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:17 PM

41. Pssst. Here's a movie suggestion i think you'll enjoy

 

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #2)

Tue May 17, 2016, 11:26 PM

80. +1

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #2)

Wed May 18, 2016, 07:43 AM

85. while it's true that Trump can mount some strong attacks against HRC

 

ultimately, Trump is one of the most beatable GE candidates I've ever seen in my life. He is a joke.

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Response to Fast Walker 52 (Reply #85)

Wed May 18, 2016, 02:59 PM

130. And Hillary is one of the most beatable Dem candidates.

It's a battle between the crude and the corrupt.

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Response to BillZBubb (Reply #130)

Wed May 18, 2016, 04:28 PM

131. unfortunately, yes

 

barring a semi-miracle that lets Bernie win the nom.

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #2)

Wed May 18, 2016, 02:05 PM

126. Well thought out response.

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Response to KPN (Reply #126)

Wed May 18, 2016, 02:37 PM

128. Thanks. I thought so too!

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Response to beaglelover (Reply #128)

Wed May 18, 2016, 02:38 PM

129. You are more than welcome!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)


Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #3)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:36 PM

5. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:39 PM

7. I simply refuse.

 

To hold my nose and vote for Clinton. I simply cannot betray the earth and vote for someone who wishes to support those who rape the earth by drilling into it, poisoning it's waters, and increasing man-made warming.

I also cannot support a candidate with a history of supporting war over peaceful resolution of conflict.

I can't support someone who refuses to rule out the death penalty.

I can't support someone who takes contributions from the wealthy and corporate elite.

Trump or Clinton, they're parts of the same neoliberal machine that started cranking back in the 80s with Reagan's push to shrink government.

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #7)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:43 PM

8. ^This^

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #7)

Wed May 18, 2016, 08:23 AM

89. Well said

 

I cannot vote for someone whose first choice in any conflict is indiscriminate death.

K & R

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #7)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:10 AM

96. Double this!!!

 

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Response to Silver_Witch (Reply #96)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:13 AM

97. Why is it so difficult to get through??????

 

If you bring up sound facts, all you get is silence.

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #7)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:50 AM

101. Exceptionally well said!!! n/t

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Response to seekthetruth (Reply #7)

Wed May 18, 2016, 11:01 AM

105. A+

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:48 PM

9. It's going downhill fast.

I recently got a Facebook post by a woman I respect very much. It was - accurately - pointing out that women traditionally have been victims of chauvinist attitudes which go to their integrity; i.e., it was Eve who provided that poisoned apple, women "sirens" who call sailors to their deaths, God, you name it. Tradition has f'd it up for women. And, by implication, were screwing things up for Hillary.

Except for me - so far - all of her women friends seemed to buy this as a "Go Hillary" or "Vote Blue no matter who" situation. Or maybe they just decided to keep their thoughts to themselves - I don't know. My first impulse was to keep my thoughts to myself.

But I finally wrote that, while I respected others' opinions, and the truth of the chauvinist traditions, I did not believe Hillary was particularly a victim of this injustice, but rather a deeply flawed candidate. (didn't enumerate the Wall Street ties, Bill Clinton's Lolita express allegations, etc.)

I understand that women have been f'd over for centuries, but it must be understood that Hillary - as the establishment darling - is carrying the water of the warmongers and rich white guys who've long done the f'ing over. Sisterhood is indeed powerful. It should not be used as an excuse to elect a puppet to the White House.



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Response to Merryland (Reply #9)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:04 PM

15. Very good.

I appreciate your thoughtful response. A while back, I met with members of a regional carpenters' union. They were unhappy, because their union had endorsed Clinton, without any input from the members.

None of those present supported Hillary -- which obviously does not mean that none of the union does. The leadership does, of course, and possibly a minority of union members.

Many support Bernie. But most supported Trump. Among the Trump supporters, there were definitely those who are sexist pigs. But there are also some who believe Clinton is corrupt, and who were unfamiliar with Sanders .....other than that the word "socialist" had been applied to him.

After several meetings, the majority of them supported Sanders.

Sexism is real, and repulsive. As the father of two sons and two daughters, it is unacceptable. It should be confronted in each and every example that we encounter.

However, all four of my children are campaigning for Bernie. They recognize that he represents the best choice for all people in our society.

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Response to Merryland (Reply #9)

Tue May 17, 2016, 03:51 PM

61. Agreed!

 

If I have a brother that goes against my values, then I have no problem calling them out on their standing.

As for my sisters, I would hope that they are willing to do the same for their sisters.

Yes, we definitely need a female president, just the RIGHT woman for the job!

Hillary ain't it!

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Response to Merryland (Reply #9)

Tue May 17, 2016, 08:37 PM

75. You said that very well. I struggle writing what I believe. But I will try. We all need to

 

support a candidate that will respect women and work for their rights. Hillary Clinton isn't that person. And plez don't insult me with the argument (actually sexist argument) that she is a woman therefore she is the better candidate. Does anyone think that Margaret Thatcher made any positive headway with regard to women's rights? We don't need another Margaret Thatcher. I am all for a strong female to challenge the male domination of our presidency, but she needs to be honest. That shouldn't be too much to ask.

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Response to Merryland (Reply #9)

Wed May 18, 2016, 07:26 AM

82. I got banned from the history of feminism group

 

For saying what you just did.

I've been a feminist all my life. I had a career as a Naval Officer and faced down more discrimination and sexual harassment then 20 average women. And yet so-called feminists think I should be banned because I didn't worship the Hillary enough. Yup, I said some good things about her but I also dared mention the bad about her.

Here's hoping that real feminists will join DU and turn the "feminist" groups from Hillary worship to real support of women.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #82)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:19 AM

99. Theynare not try feminists if they will not let their sister speak!

 

I was in the military for a very very short time in the 70s. You are a stronger woman than I!! The hatred was strong and the prejudice more than this woman could bare! You are the one to be honored for your brave stand.

Thank you!!!!!

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Response to Merryland (Reply #9)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:14 AM

98. I have been cautious in sharing this same thought!

 

But of late I have had to give voice to my inner woman who is so very offended by HRCs playing of the feminist woman card. We, as woma, must be able to stand up to the slings and arrows of men on our own. We must be thick skinned and overcome the ug!Ines that is discrimination against us.

I wold like our first woman preside to be such a woman and HRC is not that woman!

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Response to Silver_Witch (Reply #98)

Wed May 18, 2016, 02:00 PM

125. I know, I would love to have a woman president

 

It would make me so proud.

But I don't want a Maggie Thatcher. I want a real liberal who will face down the corporations like I faced down discrimination.

So far Hillary has NOT shown the guts to stand up against the slings and arrows of corporate and Wall Street greed. Maybe she'll change but I doubt it.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:51 PM

11. Keep fighting

Last edited Tue May 17, 2016, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)

You're posts are needed more than ever right now. Btw part 2 will be here tomorrow or Thursday! I feel like the corporate media is partly to blame for the hysteria on the other side. Bernie gets no coverage only trump and Clinton what a shame. what do you think about my questions on religion on you other post?

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Response to jpmonk91 (Reply #11)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:21 PM

18. Thanks, Buddy!

I'm glad that you are participating in the DU community. And I'm looking forward to your next OP.

"Religion" tends to be a tough issue to discuss on DU. Without question, organized religion has done great harm to numerous groups and individuals, including in our nation's history. More, it continues to do so today. In my opinion, that is an important starting point for discussions here.

Still, I am comfortable with the houses of worship in my area. My favorite is a small Quaker church located near a tiny, rural crossroads hamlet near where my father grew up. But I am at home with the sweat lodge that is out near my pond. I'm lucky to have a small group of people who participate in ceremony here. And more frequently, it is where I meditate and pray by myself.

I'm an old man, far too old to have "heroes." But the people I respect and look to for examples of proper living include Gandhi, King, and the Berrigan brothers. And, of course, my mentors, Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman, and Rubin "Hurricane" Carter. Paul was religious; Rubin was an atheist who viewed life on earth as a cosmic miracle.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #18)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:29 PM

24. I do wish

Bill maher had respect for spirituality

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Response to jpmonk91 (Reply #24)

Tue May 17, 2016, 05:04 PM

69. He's an entertainer.

I suspect that he would not have argued with Bob Marley or Peter Tosh.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:53 PM

12. Great post

I posted the other day (see video below) that even James Carville recognizes the fact that Hillary needs Bernie more than Bernie needs Hillary (because of his voters). Unfortunately the Hillary campaign and her supporters are not listening to that wise advice. They keep doubling down on the insults and actually expect that Sanders supporters will take all their taunting and sneering and come running to embrace their campaign in the Fall. They are delusional but anyone who tries to warn them of their hubris is ignored or attacked. It will not end well and they only have themselves to blame. The Nevada convention and the provocative letter sent by the NV Dem. Party is exhibit A that they just don't get it.

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/democratic-strategist-hillary-needs-bernie

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Response to pmorlan1 (Reply #12)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:56 PM

13. Someone posted the video "Chicago 1968" yesterday

It's available free on youtube. There were horrible events & the "winner" of this divisive contest was Hubert Humphrey - who lost to Nixon - imho because many angry anti-war Democrats sat the election out. It will happen again if the coronation takes place as planned by Hillary and DWS.

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Response to Merryland (Reply #13)

Tue May 17, 2016, 12:59 PM

14. Saw that and actually remember that

We've tried to save them from themselves but it is falling on deaf ears. They are bound and determined to repeat the same mistake. As the old saying goes - You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

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Response to pmorlan1 (Reply #12)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:23 PM

19. Very well-said!

I think "hubris" is the key word. I had considered using it as my essay's title.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:05 PM

16. Kick

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Response to Schema Thing (Reply #16)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:26 PM

21. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:16 PM

17. A Great Post AND True Analysis Of What's Been Happening!

Things have gotten so far out of hand and too many feel they've been ignored by "the system" that it's built up an extreme amount of pent up emotion!

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Response to ChiciB1 (Reply #17)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:29 PM

23. Right.

Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:25 PM

20. I remember reading a PD report:

 

The guy was an asshole and I was not responsible for my actions in stabbing him.

This is the latest argument coming from the Bernie crowd. bullshit.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #20)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:29 PM

25. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:27 PM

22. There's a very good autopsy of the Sanders campaign here

http://vtdigger.org/2016/05/16/once-an-organizational-army-team-sanders-now-skeleton-crew/

I see good coming of it. The smarter people on the ground understand that you need much more policy meat than Sanders was ever able/willing to provide if you're to win a Democratic primary. One stump speech endlessly repeated won't cut it. This started out as a protest campaign that caught on in a bigger way than anyone thought it would, including the candidate. My sense is that many of the people quoted in this article will be influential, and positively so, in the future.

Meantime, it would be nice if you stopped condescending to Hillary supporters, who you basically characterize as enabling parrots in this highly substandard (for you) OP.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #22)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:30 PM

26. Thank you.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #22)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:50 PM

33. autoposy of the Undead.

damn it, Bill.

It just won't die!

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #22)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:50 PM

54. Agreed

Meantime, it would be nice if you stopped condescending to Hillary supporters, who you basically characterize as enabling parrots in this highly substandard (for you) OP.


You know it's near the end when the rhetorical leaders are chasing the chum tossed into the waters.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:34 PM

27. The media is portraying this as a misunderstanding by Sanders folks...if they knew the rules,

 

they shouldn't have become so violent. Is this how Sanders people here are interpreting the Nevada fiasco? I read many of the posts from the weekend, but now that people have had time to digest the uproar, is there a change in the feeling of being targeted?

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Response to eastwestdem (Reply #27)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:22 PM

42. One of the very last

places that I would look for an accurate picture of what took place would be the media. I think that it is accurate to say that the supporters of each candidate view Nevada in very different ways.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:37 PM

28. Great Post

Thanks

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Response to Ferd Berfel (Reply #28)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:23 PM

43. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:41 PM

29. I'm amazed at the denial of Clinton supporters to the racism she and Bill participated in during 08

 

It took me one minute to find a reputable source for all that she, Bill and their surrogates did regarding race against Obama. Yet they are running around, crazed, because of a bad word used against a woman, which I agree is unacceptable. But a little acknowledgement that many reprehensible things were done by Hillary would be nice.

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Response to adigal (Reply #29)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:24 PM

44. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:45 PM

32. may I link to this on twitter?

You always say what needs to be said very thoughtfully, eloquently and without insults.

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Response to dana_b (Reply #32)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:57 PM

34. Sure.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #34)

Tue May 17, 2016, 01:59 PM

35. thank you! n/t

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:00 PM

36. The Clintonista Party /is/ the Inner Party of Oceania.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever."
0-0=/=1.

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Response to VulgarPoet (Reply #36)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:27 PM

45. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:04 PM

37. But but but... look what the Sanders people did!!!!111!!!!!elevens

 



Worse than Hitler.

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Response to leeroysphitz (Reply #37)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:27 PM

46. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:08 PM

38. I always enjoy your OPs, so thank you.

I remember 08 very well and how the Clinton campaign
tried to "disqualify and destroy" Obama.

This is so different, because it is not just her campaign, but
the whole establishment (media, commercial, and DNC), which
launches these attacks. And lies travel so much faster than the
truth ever will.

In a way I am surprised that Bernie got as far as he has. I am
very happy that he keeps on fighting. The question is: Will all
of his supporters keep on fighting in an organized and
disciplined way - in spite of all the propaganda from the other
side? Or will they be too much incited, so that they look
like an uncontrolled mob?

I still hope for the best, but know that passions are high.

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Response to sadoldgirl (Reply #38)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:29 PM

47. Thanks!

I remain confident that things are going to get better. We might be heading for a difficult time, but things will improve.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:14 PM

39. K&R

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Response to kgnu_fan (Reply #39)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:32 PM

49. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #49)

Tue May 17, 2016, 03:01 PM

56. Hopefully we carry on with awakened heart. Never give up.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:29 PM

48. K&R!

now watch as one of DU's most all time fair, respectful and evenhanded commentators is disregarded.

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Response to G_j (Reply #48)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:34 PM

50. Right.

Thus far, the responses include my being compared to a vicious thug with a knife, a gun, and of hurting people's feelings! Crazy times at DU:GDP.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #50)

Tue May 17, 2016, 03:14 PM

58. well it's obvious for any of us who have been around,

Last edited Tue May 17, 2016, 07:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Thanks for another patient and reasoned post. You always take the time to calmly explain your positions.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #50)

Wed May 18, 2016, 01:32 PM

124. Luckily I haven't seen any of those.

"Ignore" is a wonderful thing.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:38 PM

51. You know I cover social movements

 

From those front lines...this is much bigger than the election. It will be an interesting ride.

Though personally...NV is making me look for the guy with the extra tortas and cokes, and the bags of properly pre filled ballots for the ballot stuffing.

Legitimacy is critical to any government. When you lose it, well, it is very difficult to get it back.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #51)

Tue May 17, 2016, 02:47 PM

53. Thanks!

This is definitely much bigger than a presidential election.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 03:04 PM

57. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

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Response to Uncle Joe (Reply #57)

Tue May 17, 2016, 04:16 PM

64. Thanks, Uncle Joe!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 03:22 PM

59. While the chair-throwing and screams of "bitch" at Sen. Boxer did not enhance the discourse,

I think by and large these incidents will have been forgotten come November, when it will be all about Trump vs Hillary. While there may be a few DUers still fervently banging on about how Bernie wuz robbed, out there in the real world Sanders will be a footnote, just as most people have already forgotten Marco Rubio, for example.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #59)

Tue May 17, 2016, 04:17 PM

65. Thanks

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #59)

Wed May 18, 2016, 08:13 AM

88. Chair up, chair down, hugs, no throw.

I'm astonished that the "thrown chair" is such a focus, in light of the mischief of the party chair.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Bernie4People/status/732619789424832512/video/1

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Response to Snarkoleptic (Reply #88)

Wed May 18, 2016, 02:23 PM

127. They are collectively looking at the wrong chair for what they want to see

Not what is in front of them.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 03:45 PM

60. K&R

Excellent post

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Response to Carolina (Reply #60)

Tue May 17, 2016, 04:17 PM

66. Thank you!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 03:53 PM

62. The DNC Will Ride Their Corrupt Gravy Train ... Right Off A Cliff. Can't Say They Weren't Warned...

 

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Response to AzDar (Reply #62)

Tue May 17, 2016, 04:20 PM

67. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 04:01 PM

63. "Thus, it is the responsibility of the “average” citizen who supports Hillary Clinton to speak up."

Hillary supporters here at DU are indeed speaking up -- pretending the DNC chair in Nevada is the victim and demanding an apology.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #63)

Tue May 17, 2016, 04:28 PM

68. Right.

I did not approve of the reported chair-throwing. I do appreciate the frustration that people rightly felt. I think that there is a need for militant non-violence.

I'm not surprised that Hillary supporters here on DU:GDP aren't willing to agree with me publicly. Or agree with me at all. (grin) But I hope that some of them, even if they strongly disagree with me after reading the OP, will give it some thought. One person, for example, expressed some disappointment that I'd write the OP. That's fine -- I'm not offended by that. But I do hope they will think objectively about why I wrote it, and definitely mean it.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 05:11 PM

70. It will be more up to the nominee to unite the party than the losing candidate. It's only fair.

The only in good faith effort Hillary can make now is a very special speech in which she explicitly outlines how she and the downticket party intend to restore the basic domestic economic and institutional order that the FDR wing of America needs and rightfully expects from their next president, no matter the tax or military issues, though those are important.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #70)

Tue May 17, 2016, 06:21 PM

72. Right.

Very good!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 05:51 PM

71. Thank you!

Grateful for your posts as always.

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Response to Tuesday_Morning (Reply #71)

Tue May 17, 2016, 06:22 PM

73. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 06:26 PM

74. Strong arm tactics during emotional campaigns will almost

always fail on some level. All unnecessary and unfortunate. Yes, I said I was leaving but when you or my son John post here, I feel a responsibility to participate in those threads. Thanks and recommended.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #74)

Tue May 17, 2016, 10:07 PM

76. Thanks!

I'm glad that you are here.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 10:08 PM

77. And I see the entitlement of Sanders and his supporters. Funny that.

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #77)

Tue May 17, 2016, 10:09 PM

78. Thanks.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #77)

Wed May 18, 2016, 07:03 AM

81. I think that idea that you hold about a Sander Supporter is probably

 

the main reason you have engaged in so many, many, many flame wars with Sander supporters. You think people who are fighting for economic fairness, health care for all (not insurance scams), for the environment, for an overhaul of our systemic racism in police/ judicial/ govt, and educational standards that the wealthy enjoy for all our children through secondary levels, is "entitlement". As soon as you say that, most people aren't going to listen to a further word you have to say.

If there was one candidate who most felt was acting "entitled" and has stacked the establishment deck through and through, it would overwhelmingly be Clinton. It's thouroghly disheartening that our presumed first female president has adopted male patriarchal forms of establishment politics. The money, the special favors, probably even threatening dirt.... All of it is male politics, and Debbie and Clinton have embraced the corruption and the machine with full force. And for anyone who thinks its "men won't vote for a woman", well maybe if their assholes and over the age of 55, but all of the 45 and younger were begging Elizabeth Warren to run.

The DLC/ Third Way crowd has proven to be wrong on so many occasions. They have given away the country for money and power. They do nothing to help the most of the country. They do what will help them and their friends who paid for the privilege for their special favors.

When will you be shocked and dismayed at the direction she takes? Many of us have been pushing for a different direction. We have tried, and I'm sorry, call us all whacko conspiracy theorists, but these primaries have looked to be incredibly suspect in the lead up and with some of the results. And we see the polls that indicate in the GE, Bernie smokes Trump and is seen in a positive favorable light. The other two have high negative numbers. Which means the GE is probably going to produce very low voter tune out. And low voter turn out of independents that normally support a Dem, will not happen. That's when Republicans win.

That's not entitlement. Most progressives have been fighting tooth and nail for air space in the same room as a politician and one who will listen or champion their causes... Most are standing outside protesting the chicanery inside.

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Response to glowing (Reply #81)

Wed May 18, 2016, 08:35 AM

91. When you argue.... "As soon as you say" then make up shit, you fail.

 

You think people who are fighting for economic fairness, health care for all (not insurance scams), for the environment, for an overhaul of our systemic racism in police/ judicial/ govt, and educational standards that the wealthy enjoy for all our children through secondary levels, is "entitlement".


I said Sanders and supporters are entitled. I did not argue paying someone a living wage, or providing health care of college is an entitlement.

When you argue as you do, it is a fail.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #91)

Wed May 18, 2016, 09:12 AM

93. I think calling me a failure is pretty low. I won't alert

 

because I'm so tired of being on Juries... Calling someone who makes what i do, work as hard as I do, and lives in FL "entitled", is so far from the truth it makes me want to cry or laugh at the absurdity. But then, I've been fighting for things that were unpopular long before the country turned its mind around; especially the war. And we did get in to visit Senator Nelsons office. I quite literally had my 2 yr old in tow when we got that meeting, that was only with staffers at the end of the day.

It bothers me immensely the directions that this country is heading into. What concerns me even more is my child's strange proclivity for the military...(yeah for an anti-war, peace loving Mom, this is really something that's hard to swollen). However, our family has history with military service, and I can't discount the natural proclivity he has had to studying military warfare since the age of 5. So, it bothers me immensely if we would continue to engage in wars of aggression with our next President; because he will be 18 when in the next 8yrs. (I've hopefully got him to do ROTC and go after college and as an officer, but who knows if that's financially plausible by then?) His alternative life careers would be firefighter, police officer, or Secret Service... So, I basically have a kid who wants to help others overwhelmingly and doesn't mind putting his life on the line for it. I'm still hopping for him to change his mind over the next few years, but time will only tell.

Just calling people "entitled", when they are so clearly not, is ridiculous. Shit, I wish I was entitled. I wouldn't feel as if I had to care one 1/2 about the country or this world if I was wealthy. Id be planning my summer abroad with the kids and my sister in law, and not caring at all to post here. I might even be a Republican if I was so well off and entitled. That's normal for Floridians that are on the richer side of the lawn.

And again, I wonder what sort of country you espouse to live inside of? Or what your goal is in posting nasty things to people? It certainly isn't productive if you are trying to persuade people to vote for Clinton. BTW, FL primary for President is over. The next primary is state concerns, and then there's the GE. As for some of the provisionals on the ballot for the GE, I'm already in favor of Medical Marijuana. Perhaps embracing that, would help get some of the youth out to vote if Clinton is the nominee.

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Response to glowing (Reply #93)

Wed May 18, 2016, 09:18 AM

94. Again, I didn't call you a failure. I called your argument a failure. I won't bother reading further

 

It is not an honest conversation.

So, I am not calling you dishonest, I am saying the conversation is not honest.

Just jumping in there before you argue something I didn't say.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Tue May 17, 2016, 11:19 PM

79. The Clinton campaign and supporters have done nothing to bring in voters who lean democratic or ...

who are independents.

Unfortunately too many people rely on the two party system and blindly vote for "my team" but that is fading quickly.

Thx!

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Response to slipslidingaway (Reply #79)

Wed May 18, 2016, 12:56 PM

111. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 07:34 AM

83. "Obviously, the establishment has an agenda that does not respect the will of the voters."

 

The Republican take-over of the Democratic Party is nearly complete. Bernie and his supporters are fighting against that. Hillary is leading the take-over and her supporters are indeed 'enablers.'

"If the Democratic Party would fight as hard for the Working Class as the Republican Party fights for the Ruling Class, the Republicans would be a powerless minority party within a few election cycles.

The Democratic Party knows this, the Republican Party knows this, the Ruling Class knows this- and they've been astonishingly successful at making sure the Working Class never learns this.

The status quo was rolling along just fine, until Bernie Sanders came along and mucked it up with his crazy ideas about democracy, equality and justice." ~ Anonymous

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Response to Scuba (Reply #83)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:53 AM

103. This, is exactly what has happened and why I left and became unaffiliated.

The Republican take-over of the Democratic Party.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #83)

Wed May 18, 2016, 12:56 PM

112. Very good!

Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 08:01 AM

86. Recommended

It wasn't that many years ago when this community stood together as our ideas and voices were locked out of the media, as were we misrepresented and belittled in the media. We stood together against election fraud and practices that were decidedly undemocratic. How relatively soon some forget.

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Response to me b zola (Reply #86)

Wed May 18, 2016, 12:58 PM

113. In my opinion,

we used to share a general set of values. Not so much any more.

Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 08:07 AM

87. "Usually when people are sad, they don't do anything. They just cry over their condition. But...

"...But when they get angry, they bring about a change."

--Malcolm X

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #87)

Wed May 18, 2016, 12:58 PM

114. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 08:27 AM

90. The winner in the general election will

be decided by all the voters. The Democratic nominee will be decided in the democratic party. It's pretty simple to understand, everyone's vote counts the same, even including the establishment. In fact, they wouldn't be the establishment if they had lost.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #90)

Wed May 18, 2016, 11:06 AM

106. What you're asserting

is the crux of the problem: far too many people still believe "one person -- one vote." Ignoring that the corporate megalomaniacs have usurped our political process is perilous.

The handful of people I know who support Hi11ary only cite her gender as the reason she has their support. I think this has become the key meme for the corporatist Oligarchs, whose singular goal remains the installation of a candidate most likely to garner their approval.

(I've updated my IL, so any rebuttal from you is moot.)

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Response to chervilant (Reply #106)

Wed May 18, 2016, 04:46 PM

132. I'm not sure you think

at all. I'm so sick of these proofs based on anecdote, claiming that the handful of people who talk to them somehow represent whatever they want to claim. Get over yourself.

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Response to Progressive dog (Reply #90)

Wed May 18, 2016, 12:58 PM

115. Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:08 AM

95. Standing ovation!!

 

and hats off to you

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Response to Silver_Witch (Reply #95)

Wed May 18, 2016, 12:59 PM

116. Thank you.

Hope to see you in Philadelphia.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:47 AM

100. There is little likelihood

that we will "move together to higher ground."

Too few of us have any hope of standing on common ground.

I don't recognize the Democratic Party du jour, and I cannot support Hi11ary.

Actually, I have noticed far fewer new OPs on DU since this campaign cycle began. We've lost some amazing DUers, and my IL has quadrupled. DUers I've long admired have become shrill and derisive or are resorting to verbal bullying -- I am deeply saddened by this.

You are one of a decreasing number of contributors on this site that keeps me coming back. Thank you for this OP.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #100)

Wed May 18, 2016, 01:09 PM

117. I agree.

DU was a progressive-liberal community when I joined in 2003. But, be it by design or whatever, it has shifted to the right. In a real sense, that could be a good thing, if it promoted rational discourse. ..... As I was typing this, my mind wandered briefly .....in part because my health is not "good" at this time, and I am physically rather weak the past few days .....however, your post provided me with the idea I want to explore in my next OP. I thank you for that! I hope I can do the idea that you just sparked justice.

Let's talk more soon, and prepare for Philadelphia Freedom Summer.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 10:51 AM

102. I trust and value your opinion, thank you for once again weighing in....

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Response to AuntPatsy (Reply #102)

Wed May 18, 2016, 01:11 PM

118. Oh, thanks, AuntPatsy!

We have been friends and co-workers in the Good Fight for many years now. I respect and admire your advocacy for Truth and social justice!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 11:00 AM

104. Exceptionally well said! If the DNC/DLC/3rd-Way/DWS/HRC continue the

current course, it is likely the WH will be lost to Trump in 2016. Common ground must be met in Philadelphia for a democratic successor to the WH 2016.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #104)

Wed May 18, 2016, 01:12 PM

119. I absolutely agree!

Thank you.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 11:15 AM

107. Awesome post! Thank you!

 

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Response to Seeinghope (Reply #107)

Wed May 18, 2016, 01:13 PM

120. Thank you, Seeinghope!

I am happy that some people enjoy my essays. It helps me find some balance with negative responses that I get here and on other OPs.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 11:18 AM

108. "classic enablers" That says it all about the OP. nt

 

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Response to Jitter65 (Reply #108)

Wed May 18, 2016, 01:14 PM

121. Thanks

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 12:30 PM

109. Thank you, as always. Your essays are one of the very few reasons I return here.

I appreciate your thoughts.

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Response to myrna minx (Reply #109)

Wed May 18, 2016, 01:15 PM

122. Thanks, Buddy!

I appreciate that ....and I've always appreciated your friendship and participation here!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Wed May 18, 2016, 12:41 PM

110. Kicked & R'd

 

The Democratic party of Richard Daley Sr. is back.

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Response to John Poet (Reply #110)

Wed May 18, 2016, 01:16 PM

123. Solid point.

We need to keep that in mind as we prepare for Philadelphia Freedom Summer.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 26, 2016, 05:21 PM

133. Clinton is winning the primary, and will win the nomination, fair and square, with ZERO evidence of

 

cheating.

The claims of cheating are sour grapes, nothing more, and are themselves a falsehood.

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