I find it amazing that after all the years of conflict I have endured on DU,

[mhatrw]

a place I sincerely appreciate as an important information resource, that this is where it all ends.

with the most inopportune candidate at the most opportune time in USA history for a truly Democratic Underground?

agree to disagree

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Deal with it. nt

[Mika]

3. Did you miss the "agree to disagree" part?

Or can't you deal with that?

:-/

[Cheese Sandwich]

4. Using images of Muhammad Ali as a reaction gif right now in a tiny internet squabble is pretty tacky

Using it to jazz up your posts. Our feuds here are kind of petty actually let's don't drag Ali into this as if he supports one side in the great DU Wars of 2016.

[Cali_Democrat]

7. What the hell are you yapping about?

It's my sig line and I put it there as a tribute after he died.

It has nothing to do with you guys.

Buzz off.

[Cheese Sandwich]

8. Oh I didn't realize it was your sig line. I thought you pasted it there to add punch to your

"Deal with it" quip.

[MrMickeysMom]

52. Pictures sometimes help people...

... especially those who can't quite make a point otherwise...

This is "buzz off" therapy, no doubt.

[1StrongBlackMan]

76. Wow ... That Carly Simon song comes to mind ...

some just can't imagine that sometimes, something, ain't about them.

[merrily]

104. One assumption that the poster acknowledged means inability to imagine. o.k.

I wonder how many logical fallacies your Reply 76 embodies?

[1StrongBlackMan]

151. That's easy ... None. n/t

[merrily]

164. LOL! o.k. nt

[cui bono]

31. You need to look up the word "unity".

You're not very good at it.

.

[LonePirate]

114. The words "the most inopportune candidate" don't exactly scream unity to me.

Maybe you have a different definition of unity than I do.

[Logical]

41. Says the poster who had made up shit about Bernie in the past. And does not deny it. nt

[vintx]

67. When people admire dishonesty in their candidate

this is the festering shit you see as a result

The fish rots from the head down, as they say.

We used to mock freepers for this shit.

[MariaThinks]

92. what an awful thing to say about Hillary.

[merrily]

105. Yet nowhere near as awful as outright lies that get posted on DU about Bernie daily.

It is what it is. Or what it has become during this primary, anyway.

[merrily]

103. Well, he or she did delete a lot of posts after others started linking to them.

Whether or not that's a noble thing, I leave to you, dear reader.

[HERVEPA]

78. Disgusting response in multiple ways.

[RazBerryBeret]

130. Ha! That's great!

That sums it all up in a little nutshell wrapped in attitude!

[JEB]

160. Oh, we all will be dealing with it for some time.

Can you imagine the mid-terms?

[geek tragedy]

2. Your choice to leave because the voters chose another candidate nt

[Mika]

5. Thank you, mr/ms obvious. eom

[merrily]

107. Not what the OP said at all, but whatever. I guess posting stuff like that makes you feel....

Actually, I have no clue what the point of intentionally mischaracterizing someone else's post is.

Then again, for months, I had no clue why some DUers were lying about supporting Bernie, even though it was very obvious they were lying about that.

Guess I am better at spotting the behavior than I am at guessing the motive.

#HillaryLostMe

[merrily]

128. Guess so. If they derive no benefit of any kind from it, they'd be masochistic to continue, no?

[Lord Magus]

11. It isn't "undemocratic" for the voters to democratically choose a different candidate than you.

On the contrary it's you who's being undemocratic by saying the voters shouldn't have that option.

[pengu]

27. I'd buy that if she hadn't gotten this far by lying and cheating

[Lord Magus]

61. Getting more votes than her opponent is not cheating. -nt-

[pengu]

73. It is when you cheat to get the votes

It is when people's registrations magically change in closed primary states. It is when caucuses are outright stolen like Nevada.

[Lord Magus]

74. Claiming that the Nevada caucus was "stolen" is a 180-degree reversal of reality.

Hillary won the Nevada caucus. And at the state convention, more Hillary delegates than Bernie delegates actually showed up.

[pengu]

75. You're lying

Many Bernie delegates were barred entry. The thing was crooked from the beginning when Reid pulled strings to get his buddies to give the afternoon off so they'd vote for Clinton. It just got worse from there. Your bullshit spin isn't going to work.

[Lord Magus]

79. Almost all of the disqualified Bernie delegates didn't even show up.

And it's unbelievable that you have the audacity to say voter suppression should've happened to prevent the casino workers from voting.

[pengu]

82. Spin Spin Spin

[Lord Magus]

83. Lie Lie Lie

That's what you're doing.

[pengu]

84. Spin Spin Spin

[1StrongBlackMan]

77. Kudos ... You were wise to disengage from the discussion ...

One could just see their temperature increasing with every post.

[LiberalElite]

94. OMG there really is no hope for some -

My Cognitive Dissonance Meter just blew up.

[merrily]

108. Good thing then that the hidden post said nothing like what you imply it said.

Please let the straw men rest. There's little point to exhausting them anyway. Knocking them out is singularly unimpressive.

[Lord Magus]

112. It's not a straw man at all.

The hidden post refers to the Democratic Party as the "un-Democratic Party" because Hillary will be the nominee.

[merrily]

117. Yes, it is. Again, the hidden post does not say what you imply or claim.

Refuting something no one but you said is knocking out a straw man. Not impressive. To the contrary, it makes a negative impression.

[geek tragedy]

12. Nobody is forcing you Green Party/Nader types to post here.

In fact, you really shouldn't.

[cui bono]

33. Nor should you. You should be too ashamed to after having pretended to be a Bernie supporter.

But then some people have no conscience or moral compass.

.

[Lord Magus]

62. Why do you think he pretended?

Is it just unfathomable to you that a Bernie supporter might ever turn against him?

[1StrongBlackMan]

81. Clearly, that seems to be a threshold belief.

[merrily]

115. No, not unfathomable. Just not true in certain cases.

There were numerous indicia of false support for Bernie, setting the stage for people later to say some variant of "I've changed my mind because Bernie and/or his supporters suck." However, I have no need to list these indicia now. I did once, for one pretender, and his or her reply was "It is what it is," so the exercise was a total waste of my time.

[merrily]

110. Have you cleared with Skinner who should and should not post here?

Because Greens and indies do post here with his knowledge, subject, like all DUers, to hides and bans if they violate TOS.

Before you invite people to leave, you might consider that this is his board, not yours. Just a suggestion.

[geek tragedy]

113. okay, allow me to rephrase:

everyone knows that advocating Naderism is an explicit violation of the TOS and norms of the community. Just as advocating for Trump is.

That's been the policy for years. That's a core part of this place's identity, always has been.

So, there's no legitimate reason to whine that behavior that's always been antithetical to this site continues to be discouraged and prohibited.

[merrily]

119. Remind me what "Naderism" means in 2016 again?

If you see an actual violation of TOS, your remedy is to alert and/or draw it to the attention of the admins.

Telling people who do not agree with you or your candidate to leave is not really your place, given that you do not own the board and the person who does own it has not told those people to leave. Clearly that was my point. I have no idea why you find that remotely debatable.

[geek tragedy]

122. Here is what the message to which I responded now says:

A Jury voted 6-1 to hide this post on Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:21 AM. Reason: This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

Because, TOS.

You were saying?

[merrily]

125. Luck of the draw doesn't change anything in my posts to you. That was not an admin ban, was it?

You invited people to leave a board that belongs to someone else, didn't you? You're still not an owner of this board, are you?

[geek tragedy]

129. have you read the TOS? Arguing for people to vote against the Democratic nominee

is a per se TOS violation.

It's very hard for a Sanders supporter to get a 6-1 hide here. You really have to step over the line.

[merrily]

132. It's not that hard. However, that is a very different issue from what you posted.

This is what you posted:

12. Nobody is forcing you Green Party/Nader types to post here.

In fact, you really shouldn't.

My prior post said your remedies for a violation of TOS were to alert and/or draw the admin's attention to the violation. Someone did that and got a hide. I have no criticism of that. I do, however, have a criticism of you inviting people to leave someone else's board.

I don't know what part of "not your board" is difficult. It's not the place of a guest at my home to tell my other guests they should leave. That's not an esoteric concept.

[BreakfastClub]

9. Is it the DU's fault that many more people voted for Hillary over Bernie? What do

you want to happen? Would you like the site to go rogue and stop supporting the democratic party because your candidate didn't win? I know it sucks when you lose, but that's just crazy. MY candidate lost in '08. I was for Hillary. It was heartbreaking. I couldn't stand Obama for the first couple of months after she conceded, but I got over it, and voted for him. He has been a good president and I appreciate what he has done for the country. You'll get over it too.

[historian]

10. Think about what you just said

If you have "endured" years of suffering then you had two choices - leave (unless you are a masochist and enjoy being pushed around) or remember that every argument has a counter argument. Example - I l iive in a very conservative Hallelujah Jesus type of place, but I tell people who try to shove that nonsense down my throat that I am an atheist. Most recoil in horror, some are curious as to why I don't believe etc...but we still part as friends or as people who can still talk to each. That is what is known as civil discourse, something we seem to have lost.

[mhatrw]

15. Years of good natured CONFLICT, not suffering.

I just don't want to fight for the Democratic party anymore, at least not where I cannot fight for what I believe in.

I'm part of the Democratic Underground. YMMV

[emsimon33]

13. Read the messages from Hillary supporters on this thread

Posters totally discount the rigging that has characterized these primaries. I hope that on June 16, DU is merely their safe haven echo chamber...that the Bernie supporters leave. We are not wanted. The truth of these primaries escapes the Hillary supporters.
If the primaries were not rigged, most would have gone about 65-75% for Bernie. Hillary has been very clear that she doesn't need us so why are the Hillary supporters even asking, as they do on several of the DU threads, if we will fall in line and vote for her. If she doesn't need our votes, then she doesn't need our votes and neither do her super delegates, now or whenever they run.

[geek tragedy]

17. LMAO. How can any adult believe this nonsense?

If the primaries were not rigged, most would have gone about 65-75% for Bernie.

I guess all those public opinion polls were in on it.

[Armstead]

32. There's rigged and there's rigged

I'm not one who think the voting process was signbificantly tampered with.

But I do think from the beginning the Cinton Inc. /Democratic Establishment and the Media and the Big Money Backers rigged perceptions. The fact that OMalley ws the only opponent from the conventional party bench because no one was willing to challenge the Royal Succession.

Bernie was portrayed as a racist, a "fringe" commie who had no chance of getting any votes. The entire wing of the democratic base he represents was demonized and marginalized....It happens every time someone out of the mold goes up against the DLC Corporstists.

So the average voter was set up to believe that a vote for Bernie would be a wasted vote.

Fortunately, it didn't work as well this this time. Instead of 10 percent Bernie has gotten something around 40-45 percent.

Sure she'll be the nominee -- but they can't honestly claim to "own" the Democratic Party anymore.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. That is very well said.

nt

[geek tragedy]

69. Nobody owns a party this large.

Bernie was not portrayed as a racist. It is an empirical observation that the Sanders coalition is much whiter than the party as a whole.

That does not mean he is a racist. It is a fact those who have an interest in continuing his legacy need to address in a brutally honest way. (hint: old school class-trumps-race-and-gender socialist advocacy is as obsolete as DLC third-wayism)

If he and his supporters want to win over African-Americans as part of the movement, they need to stop trying to fucking disenfranchise them via superdelegates. It's obscene and stinks of white-male entitlement.

And while he's at it, admit that losing to a woman means the same thing as losing to a man--you respect the wish of the voters and concede. Her victory in 2008 is more decisive and much greater in size than Obama's was in 2008, but Bernie and Co claim it is meaningless and whine how dare she say she won-after she fucking won.

He looks small right now. Short window of time to fix that.

[Armstead]

95. You're complaints are looking small

Race and gender are issues. So is class.

It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, and unify the majority middle, working and lower classes to work for their shared interests in terms of economic justice and other systemic inequities of the political/government/corproate domination, while also dealing with sexism., racism and otehr social issues.

In fact, IMO a Big Tent class approach is one of the ways that social problems can be addressed, because when people work together for common interests they also tend to get to know and respect each otehr more. And, economic pressures contribute to demographic tensions and repression of women.

Yes all those "Bernie has a problem with AA's (latinos, women, etc.)" were memes spread by Clinton's surrogates. And they did imply racism.

The superdelegate stuff is just typical political maneuvering by Bernie. Clinton tried a variation in 2008 (while she was simultaneously running as the candidate of the "white working class&quot so don't hand me that crap that somehow Sanders is evil compared to the lily pure Clinton.

He knows damn well he is never going to "fucking disenfranchise them...". The ONLY way that might possibly happen is if Clinton does it to herself and gets indicted or so muddied by her own screw-ups that she becomes disqualified.

[geek tragedy]

100. "while also dealing with sexism, racism and other social issues."

Classic example of the mentality that lead to Sanders failing to expand his demographic base.

1) You treat those concerns as an afterthought--"while also dealing with"--treating them as policy equivalent of "yada yada yada"

2) civil rights, including full legal and economic justice and opportunity for all, are not 'social issues'--which is the term old school white male socialists use to dismiss the civil rights of women and people of color as mere discussions of morality

3) How is full spectrum racial inequality and gender inequality a "social issue" whereas generalized income inequality not a social issue?

A candidate pushing old white male socialism of the kind you're advocating will lose every freaking time.

That stuff is as outdated as black and white televisions and rotary-dial telephones.

It's the outdated, underinclusive ideology and political approach, not establishment rigging, that cost Sanders his chance at victory.

[Armstead]

111. Response

1) Not afterthought. Addressing your post and complaints. I didn't mention the environment or foreign policy or other issues, but they are not afterthoughts either.

2) The Sanders campaign did not invent that artificial division of social issues. Just the opposite. He and his supporters see them as all parts of the whole situation, and related to one another....On the contrary it's the Clinton campaign and supporters who deliberately created those distinctions and divisions , to advance her "demographic marketing campaign."

It's not Sanders who is stuck in a paradigm of the past. It's Clinton. The 80's and 90's are over.

[geek tragedy]

120. you guys really need to get over the idea that people of color

preferred Clinton because they were race-baited into it.

No, Clinton successfully went after their vote by listening to them and talking about what she heard them talking about.

Sanders tried his "one size fits all" message and it belly-flopped.

That was his failure. He failed to reach those voters. He failed completely and utterly in that regard.

Clinton did not create those divisions--they have always existed and they will continue to exist as long as either of us are alive.


One-size-fits-all political advocacy based on the primacy of class divisions is an electoral failure. The Democratic party is the Obama party and the Obama coalition, not the Sanders coalition.

Yeah, Sanders did great with young voters, especially young white voters. But his ideology will become less appealing to those same supporters in 15 years when they start owning houses and paying taxes.

Ignore demographics at one's own political peril.

[Armstead]

124. Walking and chewing gum

To quote Warren Buffet -- "There is a class war, and my class is winning."

There is absolutely NO reason to use the longstanding racial differences and tensions that do exist to allow the wealthy and powerful to steal the future and rights of everyone who is not in the upper 80 percent.

The GOP capitalized on those divisions and social tensions. . It is very disheartening to see that Democrats are supporting and reinforcing it.

[geek tragedy]

127. you're offering excuses as to why your side failed to make its argument

to African-Americans and Latinos.

If you want to win next time, you need to stop making excuses and figure out what the Sanders campaign did wrong.

Clinton earned the votes of African-Americans via good old fashioned politicking. She spent years in the communties, talked to many members of communities across the country, and she LISTENED to what they had to say and about what they wanted to talk about.

And then she talked about the issues they wanted to talk about.

That is smart politics.

One-size-fits-all socialism that emphasizes class above all other considerations is a political failure. Learn from failure instead of embracing it.

One-size-fits-all politics is DUMB politics. It doesn't work.

[Armstead]

140. It's not one size fits all....It's progressive vs. conservative

No one can appeal to everyone. That's a GIANT DUHHHHHHH!

That also is not the point. If one can hit a common chord that can resonate with a significant number of people, even if they don't agree on every issue.

As for excuses -- Don't need any goddamn excuses. Bernie made a significant showing and got close to half the votes against impossible odds and against a Rich Political Machine.

[geek tragedy]

142. why was Sanders's coalition so much less diverse than Clinton's or Obama's?

we have different definitions of 'close'

[Armstead]

146. Yeah just us straight white boys and no one else

?157

[geek tragedy]

148. The numbers are the numbers.

Feel-good photos notwithstanding.

[Armstead]

149. It's not feel good photos -- The numbers are too simplistic

They do not include many factors -- Including the sizable number of people who prefer Sanders' message and values but are supporting Clinton either because they've been told she's the "most electable" or because she is a woman...or maybe don't like Sanders personally, but still agree with him.

[geek tragedy]

150. Sigh, Bernie's campaign and Bernie never once failed.

They were always failed by ungrateful voters and a vast establishment conspiracy.

The only perfect campaign in history failed somehow.

[emulatorloo]

109. Respectfully disagree.. When AA posters provided advice to Sanders how to improve outreach

other posters mischaracterized those thought-out posts w advice as saying 'Bernie is a Racist'.

But that's not what they actually said. They said "Bernie's having trouble reaching out, here's how he could do better."

Now I am not denying that a handful of disingenuous "Hillary Supporters" implied racism.

But in my mind there are a handful of disingenuous "supporters" on both side who's only purpose is:

- to poison the well
- post flamebait
- to DEMONIZE Bernie and/or HRC but never bash Republicans
- make sure Trump wins the election by dividing Dems

You are an extremely thoughful person and I always enjoy you posts. But disagree with your assessment here.

[Armstead]

116. I disagree with the assessment of the tone

I remember all that because -- as a longtime Bernie fan -- I was shocked and appalled when I returned to DU after a periodic absence at the time and saw that Bernie was being so sharply criticized on that basis. It is the opposite of everything he stands for.

I don't have problems with helpful advice and constructive criticism. I probably agree with some of it.

But the tone -- both in the harsh terms expressed here on DU at the time and the statements of Clinton and her surrogates and supporters elsewhere -- was very different and intentionally damaging and misleading.

But we can agree to disagree on that.

[emulatorloo]

137. We agree in many many areas.

I spend a lot of time reading and lurking in AA (I am old white guy so I don't post much there). So I saw a lot of what I described go on first hand.

I def do understand your perspective regarding tone.

Take care and have a great Sunday!

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. Enjoy your right wing party that indeed used race to divide people

Trust me, tne youth are indeed paying attention...the multi colored youth, and they are far from impressed.

[PufPuf23]

85. I share your perception Armstead. Thanks. eom

[seabeyond]

88. Like you think Clinton is a corporatist, some of us think Sanders is focused on white, middle/upper

middle and college youth.

Now, it bares out in his demographics. It bares out in who goes to his rallies. He bares out in who supports him. It bars out in who votes for him.

I suggest I have more right to state that Sanders is talking to the middle/upper middle class, white and men. Than you have a right to say that Clinton support corporations.

Yet, that doesn't stop you and many many others from making the statement Clinton is a corporatist.

[G_j]

101. +1000!

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. And at least one, if not two had real problems

One even had a lawsuit filed.

They will care about this shit in November if the other side rigs it and steals it. Election integrity is not something you can be half pregnant about and only care when your favored candidate is the affected one. Mark my words though, tjey will suddenly care, cause we all know that is only a thing republicans do Do I need the

[BreakfastClub]

18. There was no rigging. That is outright bullshit. nt

[cui bono]

34. Of course there was. It's documented and several state's primaries are under investigation.

[Lord Magus]

136. No they are not under investigation. -nt-

[MFM008]

22. More "whine" than in a Roman Orgy

in this place.

Passing out cheese..........>>>>>>>>vomitorium this way...........>>>>>>>>

[historian]

53. Please explain

Just what are super delegates? I don't understand the system really, but with the electoral college and superdelegates, it seems to me that our votes are merely dreams and serve no purpose whatsoever. The outcome has been decided already. The system has more rigs than the sailing ships of th e18th century!

[Lizzie Poppet]

56. Mostly I can't, actually.

I've got a big percentage of Camp Weathervane on Ignore.

[tarheelsunc]

68. If every state held a primary instead of a caucus...

Bernie wouldn't have gotten 40% of the overall vote.

I bet you don't think a single one of those caucuses Bernie won was rigged, yet of course Nevada was rigged because Hillary won there and the delegates were seated accordingly.

[onecaliberal]

131. Open primaries when ALL Americans vote she is decimated, period!

[Lord Magus]

134. That is a lie. Sanders lost 11 out of 15 open primaries. -nt-

[tarheelsunc]

147. Why should ALL Americans have a say in who a PARTY's nominee is?

If you're not a Democrat, you shouldn't get a say in who the Democratic nominee is. That's how we open ourselves up to outside attempts to rig our elections. If you want to vote in a Democratic primary, join the Democratic Party. If you can't do something so simple as that, you have no business voting in our primary. Period.

[seabeyond]

86. Because you falsely accuse Clinton of stealing saying Sanders really sits at 75%. Actual facts

has not given us one piece of evidence Clinton stole. Voter suppression due to Republican laws, yes. And Clinton has lost more because of that then Sanders. Clinton stealing? Nothing.

How would you feel with no evidence at all I accused Sanders of something so horrendous, and stated it was fact? What would that make me, if I even believed that?

[LibDemAlways]

14. Maybe part of the problem is the site's name.

Progressives who were drawn here by the prospect of discussing political issues with like minded people have discovered this election cycle that there is nothing at at all underground about this place. Underground implies out of the mainstream, but there's nothing out of the mainstream about Hillary Clinton. She's as establishment as they come. After the primaries, the Admins. ought to seriously consider renaming the site something more appropriate like DEEC, Democratic Establishment Echo Chamber. Underground no longer applies and progressives will go elsewhere to find kindred spirits. I've been here since 2001 and know that DU will be a hard habit to break. But a website where a Clinton supporter feels free to call Bernie Sanders a "raging asshole" isn't a place I want to be.

[mhatrw]

16. How about Demopublican Overlords?

We're DOers, not DUers!

[geek tragedy]

19. We are Democrats. Apparently you have a problem with that nt

[mhatrw]

20. DOers, not DUers! nt

[Scootaloo]

25. So is Zell Miller. So was Kim Davis.

[BobbyDrake]

36. Elizabeth Warren was a Republican for several years, and yet progressives are pushing her for VP.

Cognitive dissonance, or just plain stupidity?

[NorthCarolina]

66. I'm not pushing for Warren as VP AT ALL.

She would be wasted in that position, and were Clinton to offer her the job it would only be to silence her as an outspoken populist in the Senate. I would much rather see Warren as Senate Majority Leader than as VP whether Clinton or Bernie win the nomination.

[unapatriciated]

152. I agree

it would be a waste and I don't think she would accept. She would make a great Senate Majority Leader.


on a side note, We are neighbors, I'm in Wilmington.

[NorthCarolina]

154. Hi and

hello from Charlotte neighbor!

Have family in and around Wilmington and Castle Hayne, but don't get out that way much lately.

[NCTraveler]

47. So is Bernie Sanders. Nt

[geek tragedy]

64. there are DINOs on the left as well as the right

Pretty god test of a DINO is support for the party's presidential nominee

[Dem2]

141. Exception vs rule

[cui bono]

35. There's no way of knowing what you are since you pretend to be something you're not

for months at a time. You could be a teabagger and pretending to be a Hillary supporter just as you were once a Hillary supporter pretending to be a Bernie supporter. How are we supposed to know if you pretend to be things you're not?

.

[LibDemAlways]

21. I like it! Might add

PU, for Progressives Unwelcome.

DO PU ..... sounds about right.

[YouDig]

29. If you don't want to be here, why are you here?

[Surya Gayatri]

37. One IS led to wonder. LOL! Lots of masochistic balderdash being posted recently by the BSers.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. Your posts lack all content about the candidate you claim to support, you focus on saying 'BSers'

and other insults full time, which reminds me not of Hillary but of Donald Trump, the Insult Comic Candidate.
I often wonder about motives and objectives of such nastiness. It certainly does not assist Hillary. So what is the actual agenda....

[rjsquirrel]

23. Sanders would be "inopprtune"

Anyone who thinks he's have an easier time against Trump is delusional.

[OKNancy]

24. Why does it end just because your guy is on the losing end of a primary?

I've been here a lot longer than you, and had to go along with the site TOS since then.
I supported Wes Clark against Kerry, but happily changed when he was our nominee.
Then in 2008, I was for Hillary, but moved to Obama with enthusiasm.

DU has always been for Democrats and has always had a TOS that said SUPPORT the Democratic nominee.

Of course I reject all the hyperbolic nastiness directed toward Hillary Clinton.

[Fumesucker]

30. Because for the first time in my adult life we have an actual egalitarian progressive to vote for

And it seems an extremely vocal minority of DU utterly loathes egalitarian progressive ideas and are much happier with the current ridiculously lopsided income distribution in America.

I've put up one of the more amusingly scathing things on Trump but ultimately if it comes down to Clinton vs Trump yeah Cliinton is better but that's a bar you'd need heavy mining equipment to even find and I'm not particularly interested in looking that far down.

I'll not talk about politics any more on DU for the same reason I don't bother telling people in real life that I'm an atheist, the conversation gets predictably boring.

Hey, wanna hear whose name is a rude British slang word?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027324124

[RKP5637]

45. DU has become boring anymore. It's the SOS, bashing. I'm so fed up with the

"vocal minority of DU (that) utterly loathes egalitarian progressive ideas and are much happier with the current ridiculously lopsided income distribution in America." Maybe DU has changed so much I'm just in the wrong place.

[Onlaketime]

57. Jacpine Radicals would welcome you.

Its where all the progressives from DU went.

[RKP5637]

60. Thanks! I think so too. n/t

[JohnnyRingo]

118. Can you imagine what that site will end up like?

Since the only real requirement for membership is consistant Hillary bashing, it will be invaded by every Freeper, Trump supporter, and crank with a keyboard and spare time looking to tear down the Democratic candidate in the run-up to the election.

There will be no way to filter out those with an agenda from the progressives as posters promote abstaining or writing in a non-candidate to ensure a Trump win. The site worked during the primary as a pro-Bernie haven, but is now doomed by design.

Imagine starting a reply as: "KarlRover231 is right..."

[Onlaketime]

155. I'm sorry, but I think you are completely wrong.

What you describe is actually what seems to be happening here at Democratic Underground. Jackpine Radicals has all the best of the best from over here and they are incredibly respectful of each other. There are no childish GIFs, name calling or trolling. It is an incredibly well run site. They are primarily pro Bernie, but that is only because they can see quite clearly that the election is being stolen and the media and DNC are manipulating opinions and polls. To me, that is real democratic progressive activism.

I'm not sure what is going on here as I can't see much by way of respect and acceptance of differing views. Its funny because it was someone at Jackpine who recommended I check out this site and they gave me a warning of what to expect. Now I see what they mean as I have been attacked verbally and made to feel uncomfortable three times already after posting here for less than 30 posts.

[JohnnyRingo]

156. I'm not going to argue, but I can point out JPR's

...prime star poster, Manny. He's more a Libertarian than Liberal Democrat and used to rail against the party as being a GOP clone. He still does that at JPR but is mistaken as a Bernie supporter solely because he denounces Hillary.

I got my one and only hide here eight years ago for advising what Manny can do with his Ron Paul yard sign. I agree with the moderators that I stepped over the line in my graphic instructions, and I believe he was reprimanded for promoting the Ron Paul Revolution here. He backed off for some time, only posting staunch anti-Obama posts under the guise of being a self appointed true liberal, but he really has no use for the Democratic Party or anyone who represents it.

With the advent of the Sanders campaign Manny found a young new audience for his anti Democratic rants until he apparently once again crossed the line into directly trying to sabotage the election for Democrats. You can read his posts now and see that he doesn't support anyone as much as he simply opposes all Democrats.

I always thought it clever how he defined the Democrats as "third way" while he himself advocated for a third party. DU doesn't need his "help" in gaining political seats and if the Bernie or Bust movement's goal is to ensure Hillary doesn't win the White House this fall, then JPR will be tailor made for them as posters there will be working overtime to avert votes from the Democratic candidate. Watch the transformation at JPR go from Sanders to Jill Stein in coming months as new members come aboard and GOP Hillary bashers take over the site.

If you think JPR is some bastion of free speech, read the TOS. It's much more restrictive than DU.

[Onlaketime]

157. I think Manny is a true progressive democrat

and unfortunately the democratic party has continued to shift to the right. That probably upset Manny somewhat. I know it bothers me when I see the Neocons supporting the election of Hillary, especially after what she did to the country of Libya and others as Secretary of State. She is not a true democrat, but that doesn't seem to matter to people here, nor does it to the right leaning people that have taken over the democratic party. They just think they have a winner in her. I don't think so. I actually think she will lose to Trump just because she offers a lighter version of what he is offering and no real change that is needed. Only Bernie offers that change, as does Jill Stein so I am fine with either of them as President or as someone to get behind at JPR after the election. This is how new movements are formed. They all start somewhere. I think the site is a good start and on a great path.

The Jackpine group seems open to differing views and respectful discussion in regards to those views. That seems healthy to me. I personally think people are allowed to change their political ideology from time to time as they evolve. Nothing wrong with that, as long as they are respectful and not into censorship. Best of luck to you.

[LonePirate]

106. Why is it so difficult to believe that a majority of Dems preferred the longterm Dem in the race?

Last edited Sun Jun 5, 2016, 04:24 PM - Edit history (1)

It is a complete fabrication to say such ludicrous things like "an extremely vocal minority of DU utterly loathes egalitarian progressive ideas and are much happier with the current ridiculously lopsided income distribution in America." The only reason you're saying that is because you need a scapegoat to help explain why Clinton won and Sanders lost. You're lashing out at others with no basis to your claims just to perpetuate the victim card we've seen frequently from the Bernie crew.

Do you want to know why Clinton won and Sanders lost? First off, Clinton has been a Democrat for decades while Sanders only joined the party last year. Believe it or not, party loyalty actually matters more to some people than a fresh face or an interloper. Voters typically prefer the known over the unknown and Bernie is definitely an unknown for a lot of people. Second, many, many Dems love Obama and the job he has done as President. Those voters are more than happy to vote for the candidate that will preserve his legacy and continue enacting his vision for America. The Bernie crew here on DU seems to loathe Obama given how much they trash him so it's no wonder they fail to see how rank and file Dems support and admire Obama. Next is the fact that many people see Clinton as the more experienced and capable candidate given her time as First Lady, senator and Secretary of State. For some people, experience on the resume means something when they hire someone for a job. Then there are those who simply like her policy positions and her personality which is possibly the largest shock here to the Bernie crew. Of course, I would be remiss not to mention that some people are probably voting for her simply to put a woman in the White House because that time is long overdue.

Those are the reasons why people voted for Clinton. We elect people in this country. We don't elect ideas and then select volunteers to shepherd those ideas after the election. Like it or not, but the people have spoken and this year they preferred Clinton. You may not like that your candidate lost but that is the reality of the situation.

[BillZBubb]

153. Got it, Bernie supporters aren't real Democrats. Only those who support the Third Way are Demos.

There is nothing "real" about Hillary as a Democrat. Her and her ilk transformed the party into the 1950's republican party.

[mahina]

26. Okey dokey. Just remember, while you were enduring others, they were enduring you too.

We'll get through this.

Not with all DUers, but we don't get through a single day the same anyway. Each will stay or go or whatever's right for them.

I think Skinner et al have been incredibly perspicacious and generous.

Be you, baby!

[Live and Learn]

28. It is sad but I am with you.

Thankfully, some saw this coming and opened a new and much more welcoming home for us where ideas can actually be planted, shared and grown. Maybe these are just growing pains that will work out for the better.

[randome]

38. If Sanders had prepared for this run during his 25 years in the Senate, it would be different.

Instead, he swooped in at the last moment, joined the Democratic Party without any endorsements from his coworkers and expected everyone to do what he said.

That's not how politics works. It's not even how basic team-building works. He was destined to lose from the start because he didn't build coalitions or partners or teams.

Clinton did the prep work of assembling alliances and lining up endorsements and then she's criticized as being 'unfair'. The ridiculousness of this kind of criticism is off the scale.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Surya Gayatri]

39. Political Science 101--the BSers need to do a course.

[randome]

40. Seriously.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fumesucker]

42. A lot of us believe the team is inherently corrupt

Yeah, the other one is worse, we know that but it doesn't move everyone emotionally the way it evidently does some.

Corporate America has utterly ruined the team spirit for a lot of people that maybe had it in HS or even later, one of my kids definitely falls into that category.

Sorry, I didn't get the "rah team" stuff all the way back in HS and I doubt I will at this point.

[randome]

48. Clinton doesn't move me, either. She isn't as natural as Obama.

But she did her homework for the campaign and I think she will grow into the job as our next President. I think she will do fine and even surprise us in some ways.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Demsrule86]

43. such drama

You fight like hell for your candidate and you win or lose...if it is a primary you support your party's nominee...then in four or eight years you fight for another candidate...that is how it goes...I have lost, and I have won over the years. If Trump gets in we are in serious trouble so I just can't feel your pain this particular year.

[Vinca]

49. This is no different from 2008.

Sometimes you're on the winning side and sometimes you're on the losing side. Whether Bernie or Hillary is elected POTUS isn't nearly as important as whether Donald Trump is elected and another GOP wave hits the House, Senate and State Houses. The agenda of a president is easily stymied (GOP 2008 - 2016), but if the legislature decides the POTUS will sign whatever they pass and that POTUS is Trump, we're in big, big trouble.

[peace13]

51. I don't remember du backing a candidate from the get go in 2008.

[Puglover]

72. I was a moderator

during the 2008 primary. And I honestly could not tell you who Skinner supported back then.

That certainly is not true now.

[Vinca]

145. We didn't. We fought like hell. Just like this year.

[Zorra]

50. Things change. The US has become an idiocracy.

One item of obvious proof that the US has become an idiocracy is that Donald Trump is going to be a nominee for POTUS.

Democratic Underground has changed.

"Democrats moving to the middle is a double disaster that alienates the party's progressive base while simultaneously sending a message to swing voters that the other side is where the good ideas are.' It unconsciously locks in the notion that the other side's positions are worth moving toward, while your side's positions are the ones to move away from. Plus every time you move to the center, the right just moves further to the right." ~ George Lakoff

See the correlation here?

[vintx]

70. This shit right here ! ^^^^^^^^

[mhatrw]

97. Yes. I haven't changed. DO and the Democratic party have moved right. nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

54. Yep. An amazing, unexpected chance to actually turn this failing nation around...

...and the Democratic Party screws the pooch. Heartbreaking...

[tarheelsunc]

71. This nation will surely get "turned around" if the BoB mentality helps Trump get elected. eom

[PowerToThePeople]

55. Another web site for non right wingers will appear.

Another party that represents non right wimgers will appear.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

We, the not right wing outnumber right wingnuts by vast amounts and they know it. Their time is short. Our vengeance will be harsh.

[99Forever]

58. Actually, it already has.

If we are not wanted here, that is fine.

[betsuni]

59. "after all the years of conflict I have endured on DU"

*snort*

[rickford66]

63. "Underground" implied fighting back.

Not joining the establishment. Being bold instead of playing it safe. I'm an engineer. A few of the guys I work with are sane Republicans, no wingnuts, but most are Democrats. And the Democrats are all Bernie fans. Why? Maybe we are at odds with the management (establishment) every day. We see the effects of making safe decisions (moderate) without the input of the engineers (the public), ignoring worker moral (best interests), forced unpaid overtime (just get a second job), the folly of cost cutting now when it will bite you later (no foresight), punishing the workers for bad management decisions (the poor always pay) or the understanding of the facts (facts). I support DU, but I see right wing moderation seeping in. Just my rant for today.

[Yurovsky]

65. The Right Wing just decided to buy the Democratic Party...

Corporatists will now own both major parties. And there is really nothing we can do but sit and watch. We will be told to either suck it up or leave.

We can try to retake the Party in 2020, or if HRC wins the GE but then gets impeached, maybe the turmoil within the party will allow progressives to take control of the direction of the party and push the corporatists out.

I don't know. I'm just hoping for a landslide victory for Bernie in California. Anything that might stave off total corporate control of the Democratic Party.

[seabeyond]

90. That is something when Sanders base is bagger, Libertarians, Republicans. Nt

[bettyellen]

98. You're an employed engineer comparing yourself to those living in poverty? Seriously?

See, that's the tone deaf thing again...

[rickford66]

133. Don't be stupid.

I was making analogies. Comparing corporate environment to our political environment. Why do all of my Dem co-workers support Bernie? They see the same problems with the "establishment" that they see in our work place. Of course we get paid more and we would prefer less income inequality in general. The corporations still treat us as inter-changeable parts to be discarded when convenient. Safety nets are a must. Michael Moore is our hero, not the Clintons. If you believe I am tone deaf, you are blind.

[bettyellen]

158. Stupid is thinking the "boss does stupid things" is somehow as bad as having less opportunity and

Control over your circumstances in life. Poverty is largely a woman and children's issue in this country, particularly women of color. That you think that relates in any way to your petty workplace frustrations is kind of mind blowingly ignorant.

[rickford66]

161. You don't understand what I meant so forget it.

[bettyellen]

162. I got it, alright. It was a ridiculous analogy, period.

Think twice next time.

[rickford66]

163. Think twice about what?

I'm not allowed to make a point about how my co-workers perceive the establishment? Maybe you don't think at all. Having the first woman president is all important? So, maybe you would have voted for Sarah Palin? Hillary will probably win. She'll get what she wanted, while the 99% won't get anything.

[bettyellen]

165. Comparing a well compensated employee who's boss is dumb to people

Who are literally empoverished. It not apt at all.
The rest of your reply is some making some weird assumptions that I'll just ignore.

[bigtree]

80. and so begins the collective epic pout

...laced with implied memes created here about Hillary and the Democratic party.

What a sad and delusional revolution. You folks are your own worst enemy.

[NCTraveler]

87. Might I suggest you trash GD. P?

I know you shouldn't have to but it does make a difference. I did it for a bit and it was pleasant.

[seabeyond]

91. That works btw. I did with 2008 and I was an Obama supporter. It did help. Nt

[Octafish]

89. It IS strange.

Another great opportunity is about to pass.

Oh well. These last seven years have been great for the 1-percent. Fabulously great.

[baldguy]

93. The best candidate won.

[Hiraeth]

144. yeah and, he is sexy, too!

[reformist2]

96. Based on polls, crowds, visible signs of support, I have concluded that the primary has been stolen

I can understand there being some mismatch between observable enthusiasm and the numbers one gets on election day. I totally get that. The candidate with the most passionate supporters does not always have the most number of supporters overall. But at a certain point - when you see 100 Bernie bumper stickers and not one for Hillary - when you see a crowd of 50,000 showing up to an arena to see Bernie, but Hillary can't fill a high-school gymnasium - at that point, you have to declare that the emperor simply has no clothes, that you no longer believe the lie. The lie that she is "winning".

[Lord Magus]

135. No there ISN'T a certain point where crowd sizes and bumber stickers become indicative of votes.

That's completely delusional.

[bettyellen]

159. She choose not to hold huge rallies, so nope.... You won't see a lot of memes either. But there is

Lot of GOTV going on instead. Priorities.

[cherokeeprogressive]

99. With you in Spirit. The biggest opportunity in our lifetime has just floated down the river.

[Agnosticsherbet]

102. In a free, democratic society, people can disagree.,55% to 60% disagree with you.

I am sure, going forward, that there will be issues that we all agree on.

[DrDan]

143. such is the nature of a democracy - you often lose to a majority that sees things differently

how that loss is handled says a great deal about an individual

[lostnfound]

166. Me too.

I'm going to miss it, as a forum with good technology and it used to be useful news source.