Where will I go?

[FourScore]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by BooScout (a host of the 2016 Postmortem forum).

Where will I go?

I have been with DU since the stolen election of 2004. I will probably leave with the stolen primary of 2016.

The purged voters, the changed party affiliations, the electronic machines, Bill's electioneering at the polls, the closed polling places, the DNC with an agenda, the computer firewall, the biased media, the exit polls that are "off" time and time again - always in Hillary's favor...yet, so few Hillary supporters show any concern or sympathy or compassion for these "anomalies". I do not fault Hillary for these things. She has a campaign to run, but SOMEBODY is rigging this election, and we all know it.

As "THE DATE" of the big DU change keeps getting thrown into our faces, and super delegates are counted with pledged before they've voted (even here at DU), and the media arrogantly claims they will call Hillary the winner by 5:00pm on Tuesday, I am compelled to ask -- where will I go?

Recently, I have posted information on why I DON'T want Hillary, why I think the democratic party should not support Hillary, but I have never personally attacked a Hillary supporter nor mocked them. During this entire process, I have not once put anyone on ignore, because I do not want to live in a vacuum - people disagree, sometimes vehemently. Nevertheless, I have been shocked by the kind of attacks I have received from the other side. The level of anger, the amount of mockery, combined with the constant spiking of the ball during blatant election "shenanigans" -- it has been all too much for me.

I do not know if I can vote for Hillary in the general election anymore. Not because of DU - although the most ardent Hillary supporters here are actually hurting her chances more than they are helping - but because of myriad reasons that I need not repeat in this post; we all know them. Unfortunately, here at DU, when I say I cannot vote for Hillary, I am accused of supporting Trump. I am told that I cannot allow a Trump presidency to occur, therefore I must vote for Hillary. In what world does one deduce from my non-vote (or my possible write-in of Bernie) that I am supporting Trump? If I cannot bring myself to vote for her in good conscience, then that is not MY fault if she loses. It is the establishment that has created a situation where that can happen. THEY have promoted a flawed candidate, for I, alone, am simply not that important. If she loses, then the masses feel as I do, and we all collectively cannot bring ourselves to support Hillary. The masses can never be blamed for the outcome, for in a democracy, they matter most. When a group in power ignores those masses, it could be to their peril, as history has shown us many times.

Traditionally in an election, independent voters are the ones a candidate wants in order to win. Somehow, in this democratic primary, they are toxic, they are the problem, they should not be allowed to play ball with the democrats during their game. Everyone knows, it is the independents who decide elections in this country, yet I am watching as the democrats are telling them all to basically fuck off. That doesn't bode well for the democrats. Not at all.

I do not know if I will stay at DU, and I feel very sad about this revelation. This has been my favorite place to visit on the internet every day since 2004. I tried to stick with Dailykos after kos made his change. I tried to see the sensibility of it. Instead, what I saw was a purging of great posters and an ever-increasing vapid echo chamber. At the point kos began posting disgusting false diaries about Bernie being racist and supporting violence, I could no longer participate. I am not alone. It's not unusual to see a post with 90 recommends near the top of the recommended list. I remember when that number would be near a thousand. Will DU also descend into such a sad shell of its former self?

Where will I go?

I have things to do in my own life. Goals to achieve. I hope I will immerse myself in these quests of self-actualization. Maybe over time I will find my way back to DU. I do not know.

As for alternative websites, jackpineradicals is growing, but it, too, is another echo-chamber. Of course, it is an echo chamber for my guy, but I never wanted an echo chamber. I wanted fair.

I guess that's the bottom line of this meandering post. I have been searching for fairness and wisdom. It's in short order these days.

Where will I go?

17 votes, 3 passes | Time left: Poll closed
	I support Hillary, but think Bernie has been treated unfairly
	0 (0%)
	I support Hillary and think Bernie should give up
	0 (0%)
	I like both candidates
	0 (0%)
	I support Bernie, but will vote for Hillary if she is the nominee
	0 (0%)
	I support Bernie and I cannot vote for Hillary
	17 (100%)
	3 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[grasswire]

1. thoughtful and eloquent post, my friend...

...and sad, too.

Don't go just yet. We have some days left.

[FourScore]

8. Thank you for saying that. Here is a Clinton supporter's reaction to my post:

Last edited Mon Jun 6, 2016, 03:05 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1107157172#op

Supposedly, I am "one of the angriest".

Who knew?

[Maedhros]

9. Wow. I can't even view that post.

I've been "blocked from participating", and I guess that means "reading."

[grasswire]

11. Me neither!

Something new? Blocking non-members from reading the group?

[Maedhros]

13. Their ideas are so great, only THEY can be privy to them. [n/t]

[grasswire]

14. They are just copying Hillary's penchant for deep secrecy. nt

[FourScore]

20. LOL Actually she's not really that good with secrets. Or top secrets.

Not even special access ones.

[melman]

18. That's because it was linked to the "post a reply" field

Here's the post in question http://www.democraticunderground.com/1107157172#op

[FourScore]

19. Wow! How did you figure that out?

I was going to respond but realized I didn't want to engage. Good catch! I'll change my link.

Thank you!!

[grasswire]

24. OH!!

genius.

[Dems to Win]

10. +1

[Xyzse]

2. Shocked and disgusted at the dismissiveness being evidenced with the voter suppression and fraud.

When such actions are being used come November, I guess I will just have to accept that such is the way things are?

That is quite ridiculous.

To answer your poll, I still maintain as follows:
-It is extremely hard for me to say that I will vote for Clinton if she is the nominee, which she probably is. However, defending her, giving any donations and other things like that is out of the table. She will not get a single red cent from me willingly.

Though you're right, fairness has been in short supply lately.
Acting as if bringing up anything that Hillary has done bad is immediately thought of as a Right Wing attack. Problem is, it is not right wing when it is true. They act as if the Republicans would not be bringing those things up on the General Election to begin with, and in a much worse form.

I have already given up in the Presidential level any how, and resolved to help on the Local. I do not see her winning, and these self same tactics being used now, will most likely be used against her as well, with the voter suppression, sudden closing of precincts.

I've already accepted that we will most likely get a Republican in office due to many many reasons.

-Historically, after a two term Presidency, the opposition party has a higher chance of winning the Presidency
-The campaign of Hillary has burned bridges, particularly as they constantly insult Independents and Newly minted Democrats.
-Her negative ratings is similar to her opponent, who will most likely get his base all against her any how.
-Many Republicans that I've heard has already chalked it up to say that he will be a weak President if he were to win, and it is better to beat Hillary who would be a Strong President doing things they don't want. I think it is kinda reverse in some ways, and he'll do terrible amounts of damage. They both will, and the gap between them is smaller than I am comfortable with.
-She talks foreign policy while he talks economy. Economy is the bigger motivator for people right now, and I tend to think that foreign policy is tertiary. It is kinda funny, since Democrats usually go with the Economy, and it is crazy that they are campaigning in reverse. Makes her look like she's running like a Republican, with her priorities outwards rather than inwards.

All I can do is wish them luck really. They will need it, but my fight is over in regards to the Presidential level. They have made their bed. Even just acknowledging the unfairness of it all, particularly in regards to voter suppression, the changes in rules and even the accusations of violence that never happened, it is nowhere.

As mentioned, local races is where we are needed. We'll need that to mitigate the damage that either Presidency will take.

I mostly use DU as a news source any how, and that is how I will remain.

[grasswire]

15. well, as a news source, DU will be invalid soon.

Only news flattering to HRC will be allowed.

[msongs]

3. bernie says the campaign is NOT rigged. remember him the guy you want to win?

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/bernie-sanders-agrees-democratic-process-not-rigged

[GulfCoast66]

4. But he is about to go under the bus

The minute he announces his support for the nominee, Hillary Clinton, under the bus with him

This is the revolution man!!

[FourScore]

7. His actual statement:

“What has upset me, and what I think is – I wouldn’t use the word rigged, because we knew what the words were – but what is really dumb is that you have closed primaries, like in New York state, where three million people who are Democrats or Republicans could not participate, where you have situation where over 400 superdelegates came on board Clinton’s campaign before anybody else was in the race, eight months before the first vote was cast.

“That’s not rigged. I think it’s just a dumb process which has certainly disadvantaged our campaign.”


He's talking about closed primaries.

[bjo59]

5. That's the way I'm feeling about the country in general. Where will I go?

[Tarc]

6. "...the stolen primary of 2016"

[Contrary1]

12. Go where your conscience leads you...

maybe we'll meet up there.

[Dems to Win]

16. I refuse to watch the Hillary-Trump Reality TV Show, directed by Bill Clinton

What we are seeing is Reality TV, directed by Bill Clinton, who talked with Donald Trump prior to Trump's entering the race and reportedly encouraged him to get into it. Bill and Donny are working together to elect Hillary.

If Hillary is nominated and we really do have a Trump-Clinton race, I'm going to try to develop new hobbies and give up on following presidential politics. I hate reality TV, and I'm convinced that's all a Clinton-Trump race will be -- a reality TV show that ends with Hillary in the White House.

The more outrageous Trump is, the more he pushes people, who 2 years ago would have said they would NEVER vote for Hillary, into voting for her in the fall. It's the only way she can plausibly win, so that's the theater show Bill and Donald are producing.

I'm also convinced that the powers that rig the voting machines will do so on Hillary's behalf. She's the Establishment choice, by far. She's the one who will keep the Military Industrial Complex and Wall Street rolling along as usual, lining the pockets of the rich and powerful. The outcome is not in doubt.

I'm so certain of my cynical views that if Hillary actually becomes the nominee, it won't be worth paying attention anymore.

The primary has also been disheartening. I see an ugly racial split in the Democrats which makes me so very sad.

I no longer believe in the Rainbow Coalition.

Neither does Jesse Jackson, apparently. He couldn't be bothered to endorse and vocally support Bernie, one of the three white officeholders who endorsed him for both his presidential runs.

I voted for Jesse Jackson twice, in '84 and '88. I'm disappointed he was a no-show in 2016. He should have been out there defending Bernie against charges that he is a racist, or a newbie to the cause of civil rights.

So much disdain by black people toward 'white progs' on Twitter has really been a wake-up call for me, for several months now. So much gleefulness that the white guy from the white state has been taught a lesson, and white progs given a good slap. When did white progressives become the enemy?

So much contempt for Occupy Wall Street and their outrage over millions of homes stolen by banks via mortgage fraud, dismissed as 'white people's problems.' Ditto for people upset about drowning in student loan debt -- just 'white people's problems.'

Leaders of the Congressional Black Caucus completely mischaracterized Bernie's record of support for civil rights. It's fine to endorse a different candidate, but to call Bernie a 'new friend' when he has a 20+year history of 100% ratings from the NAACP is real deceit.

A few tweets from Bernie supporters providing links to his civil rights record are described as attacks, as if whites aren't allowed to converse with blacks on Twitter. All nasty comments about Hillary are attributed to Bernie fans, when a mere 30 seconds of reading the profile of the tweeter shows it's from a Trump supporter. People can write articles about the tweets they've received, completely mis-attributing the source, and get them published in the Washington Post.

I'm gloomy and depressed. We can only make progress if we can find a way to work together and fight for progress for everyone. I don't see it happening today.

Where will I go? I'm feeling a bit lost, too.

[FourScore]

17. I completely get it.

Excellent post!

I'm also convinced that the powers that rig the voting machines will do so on Hillary's behalf. She's the Establishment choice, by far. She's the one who will keep the Military Industrial Complex and Wall Street rolling along as usual, lining the pockets of the rich and powerful. The outcome is not in doubt.

I started to post something just like this in my OP, but then took it out.

I am glad you posted it in the thread.

[haikugal]

21. It's the truth...needs to be said as often as possible. Thanks for your wonderful OP though I don't

agree that JPR is just an echo chamber, it's still a great OP.

[Dems to Win]

23. Thank you

[grasswire]

25. Let the birdie lead the way

Where do we go?

We take our cues from Bernie. We trust him to be truthful and to lead.

The movement will survive. It may bring a new party, or a new coalition.

HRC can be proud for destruction of the Democratic Party.

[basselope]

22. I was originally at DU from 2001->2004

I left when I was told I had to get behind Kerry, who voted for the Iraq War.

I couldn't do that. I wasn't allowed to have an opinion. I wasn't allowed to say I was voting 3rd party, even when asked the question directly.

At the time I switched over to Huff Po, because it was far more open and although you had to deal with right wing trolls, it wasn't an echo chamber. It was mostly left minded people and so many people who were in the same position I was. Couldn't vote for Kerry, obviously wasn't voting for bush... just wishing for a viable 3rd party candidate. Green party it was.

I stayed on Huff po for a long time until they changed their comment system to use Facebook. I still use it sometimes with a fake FB account.. but most people have gone and you can't have full discussions the way you used to.

If god forbid Clinton becomes the nominee.. then many of us will leave. I never planned on voting for her. I only came back to the democratic party and this website for Bernie Sanders. I registered democratic just to avoid confusion (although I could technically vote as an independent in Cali, I wanted to make sure there was no confusion.) I will be changing my party affiliation on June 8th.

DU will continue on lower numbers, much like DailyKos has done since declaring Clinton the winner. People will go away, but in 2019 when we are picking a candidate to run against Trump, we will find out way back here to support the progressive.

[merrily]

26. Let's see

At 11 pm, the OP posted as an OP a USA article dissing Hillary.

At 11:08 pm,

6. I find this coincidence rather amazing

This is posted at the DU at 11pm

Upon googling for "phillip jennings usa today" to find out more about the author, hit #6 is the Free Republic, where the very same article is linked at 10:56pm.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2134625

At 12:48 pm, the OP starts a thread with "Where Will I go?" and posts a poll the responses to which could get many Bernie supporters in trouble, while dissing a pro Bernie website falsely, IMO.

Very frequent poster lately, but only lately.

I don't know what to make of all that. Anyone have any thoughts?

[bbgrunt]

27. thanks for your eloquent post. Many of us feel the same way.