If HRC IS nominated, she will HAVE to get every Sanders voter behind her to win...

[Ken Burch]

...so again, how is the Twenty Four Hour Hate being aimed at Bernie and his supporters going to get those votes?

I post this as one of the Sanders people who will be trying to persuade Sanders voters that they should vote for a HRC-led ticket if that is what we end up with.

Treating all Sanders supporters as an anti-Democrat cabal(or pretending we're secretly right wing when you know we aren't), sneering at the dreams the campaign has fought for, demanding support for HRC even if few or none of the Sanders ideals are included in the platform(and even if HRC moves further right-something she would have no good reason to do, after being nominated)...how do you think ANY of this is going to produce unity?

How do you think this will persuade young, energetic Sanders people, people this party desperately needs to win over on a long-term basis, to support your candidate? Like it or not "stopping Trump" important as that is, is not going to cut it with them.

They need to see that all their efforts, whether or not Bernie is nominated, will have some real results, that this election will be different and better as a result of their work. And there is no reason anyone in this party shouldn't want to see politics changed for the better/

It goes without saying...HRC CAN'T WIN if she and her supporters anathemize Bernie and his supporters and then demand unconditional support after you anathemize. There aren't enough voters to elect her if the attitudes of her supporters drive large sectors of the Sanders supporters away from voting for her and working for her in the fall. She needs everybody. Make it easy for people like me to get her everybody if it comes to that. Help us help you.

What your side is doing right now is deeply self-destructive. You are helping Trump and the far right by acting like this.

Whatever you think of Bernie, in the name of electing your OWN preferred candidate, please stop.

The seeds of the future cannot grow from scorched earth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. I had a post earlier in the day

in the same vein and I deleted it before it was locked as Meta.

Tread carefully.

Myself I see no unity coming. And by the way, I made my peace. Ce la vie. If they want to continue to do this shit. starting with BILL CLINTON. then by all means. Just don't complaint about the thorns in that bed

Oh and they will blame the left (so what is new), when she loses.

[qdouble]

2. The headline is factually incorrect. Hillary doesn't need every single Bernie voter to vote for her

sure, she needs a certain percentage of Bernie voters, but she'd probably only need 60-70% of Bernie voters to win the election. Fortunately, Bernie or Buster's don't represent the majority of people that voted for Bernie.

[Garrett78]

9. I think she just needs the bulk of those who voted for Obama.

That will include some Sanders supporters, of course, but I suspect there are also quite a few Sanders supporters who have never voted for a Democratic presidential candidate. Those folks, as long as they don't vote for Trump, aren't going to impact who wins in November.

[qdouble]

11. Yeah, there's a good section of BS supporters who don't like 99% of democrats in the first place..

Also, I'm pretty sure that you'll have crossovers on both sides, Republicans that will either sit out, vote 3rd party or vote for Hillary... so things will swing both ways. It's all about who is going to GOTV in swing states. Once the Democratic base comes together after the primaries and people realize that a batshit crazy, racist loon could become our next president, I give Hillary a 90% chance of winning.

Some BS supporters are going to hate Hillary before and after the primary, but I don't see the reason to cater to their narcissism instead of just speaking the facts.

[Betty Karlson]

66. "hate Hillary before and after the primary" - you are once more missing the point:

Last edited Mon Jun 6, 2016, 08:27 AM - Edit history (1)

they hate what she represents. There is little to no personal animus. And hating corporatism and Third Way is not, repeat not, a narcissist position. How can you be so tin-eared?

[qdouble]

69. Some have repeatedly said that there is no difference between Hillary or trump even though

her voting record is 93% the same as Sanders. Some never miss an opportunity to state that they literally hate or dislike her. Many of the posters here have even ran to JPR so they can call her a bitch, whore or cunt without being banned. On top of that, they seem somewhat gleeful about Trump winning just so that the democratic party has to pay for not electing Bernie. That is narcissistic, cry baby bullshit that I see here all the time.

[Betty Karlson]

71. JPR calls her a corporatist, so far as I could read. That is not pejorative.

As for the difference between Clinton and Trump: there is a difference. She is a neo-liberal corporatist, and he is a neo-fascist corporatist. But both are corporatists.

[qdouble]

74. Come on now, on JPR they have a thread made just for trying to find the most deragotory

names they can think of including cunt - http://jackpineradicals.org/showthread.php?10687-Hillary-nicknames

That is HATE.

[Betty Karlson]

76. And yet, most Bernie supporters only hate what Clinton represents.

[qdouble]

77. Well according to polls, the majority of BS supporters will vote for Clinton

so I can't say that they "hate" her. And I have no problem with Bernie supporters in general. Only the fervent Bernie or Busters, they don't represent the majority of his voters. Many of those guys do hate Hillary as a person... it's not just a policy thing.

[Betty Karlson]

114. 55% would vote for her - which is below the 60 - 70% she needs.

And those who do, hardly do so with enthousiasm. Because, as I am at pain to stress: even though they DON'T HATE HER, they HATE WHAT SHE REPRESENTS!

[qdouble]

118. Most polling shows higher support than 55%, but regardless, historically, nominees will

always see a post-convention bounce in party support. Primaries are ugly and push supporters within the party to not like each other. However, once it's over and the party backs her as well as Bernie, a good percentage will vote for her. Not all of course, but it more than likely will be a high enough percentage for her to win the GE, especially when she's going against someone as obnoxious and dangerous as Trump.

[Betty Karlson]

129. The latest YouGov poll says 55%. And Clinton never regains what she has lost.

(Historically speaking: once her lead is gone, it's gone. So what you describe is a scenario that will lead to devastating results in November. The support will not be sufficient: she and Debbie and the rest of Third Way have antagonised too many of Bernie's supporters.)

[qdouble]

142. Historically speaking "once her lead is gone, it's gone"

That really isn't true at all. Many polls show her lead increasing over trump over the last week. You cite one poll, which I'm not necessarily going to discredit... but to act like "hey, we have this one poll, it's over for Hillary" speaks more of your bias rather than a political reality. Historically speaking, the nominee gets a post convention bump. Most Bernie supporters are not Bernie or Bust, sorry.

[Betty Karlson]

149. Indeed: 55% is not Bernie or Bust. But 45 % is too many for Clinton to win.

So she had better change her tactics and her tune, and HER PLATFORM, and fast. The post-convention bump is, if you will permit the pun, a 20th century convention. It is based on the idea that the extra media exposure (during that same convention) will make more voters favor the candidate. Especially the undecided voters.

But we are talking about a candidate who is more disliked once people get to know her better. Repeating the same "oh look she is really nice if only you believe us" arguments isn't going to woo those who are already familiar with a range of counterarguments. It will only woo voters who have thusfar been undecided, the independents hovering between GOP and Democratic Party. Convention exposure does not - especially in an anti-establishment year - necessarily benefit a candidate who has to woo voters to her left. (Clinton has 70% of all voters to her left.)

[qdouble]

154. You're being intentionally obtuse if you don't see that there is a big difference between

each side digging in the trenches against each other in the primary and party unification that always occurs to some extent after the primary. Trump got a bump, as well as just about every other candidate in history. You are not interested in historical precedent as much as you are in detailing the reasons you don't like Hillary.

All current models show an electoral college victory for Clinton. Historical precedent show a post primary bump for nominees among typical party supporters (which include independents that always vote dem or republican).

[Betty Karlson]

172. Yes, but all that is part of a rapidly disappearing political-cultural model

that was valid during the 20th century. Stop partying like it's 1999. It isn't anymore.

I see the difference you describe. I ask you to see the difference between this election and all those that preceded it. Elections have become less "typical" over the past two cycles. That trend isn't going to stop once you nominate Clinton. The 20th century is over.

[Reiyuki]

179. You're referring to the 'anti-establishment vote'?

Seems like a fairly new political demographic, but quickly becoming an influential one.

Both parties 'anti-establishment' candidates have been doing very well this season.

[pangaia]

164. So they "hate" her, as you say. So what?

If they are there and you are here......

I would never in a million years vote for a Clinton. In Hillary's case 90% because of her so-called 'positions' on particular issues, but also because of her dishonesty, her arrogance, and because she is an insufferable narcissist who's main interest, in my view, is her own power and ego rather than helping other human beings.

I met her only once, and, I will tell you, was strongly put off. But I don't hate her.

[qdouble]

166. Sounds to me like you do hate her

hate
hāt
verb
1.
feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone).

[pangaia]

170. Everybody here throws around that word...

You even had to look it up to support your thesis.

Where did I say I have ANY feelings about her at all?
Nowhere. But you read something into what I said.

[qdouble]

171. Hating a person doesn't require that you personally use the word hate to describe your

feelings towards them. Hate, however, does describe how you say you feel about her, so it is a fitting definition, whether you choose to use the word or not.

[pangaia]

173. I didn't even say I have any 'feelings' about her.

You are imagining I said that.
Do you understand what the word 'feelings' means?

[Hortensis]

103. Betty, 1) Those who hate what she supposedly

"represents" literally do not know what she represents. She and Bernie are both pulling the rope the same direction. What do you think Bernie voting with the Democrats over 96% of the time for 25 years meant?

2) They're not a majority of Bernie enthusiasts, but analysts have identified a large block of Sanders supporters with "Hillary derangement syndrome." They were always there, and those of his people who hung on GD-P hung with, ran with, supported and even continually defended their nastiness. All for the "team." No excuses for that behavior. It was and is despicable.

Regarding the theme of this thread, these SBSers were always leaving, along with the rest of the conservatives who voted for Bernie either because he was anti-establishment or anti-Democrat or to use him to knock Hillary out, or any combo.

We do not "need" to keep any of these because they were never ours anyway. And we especially shouldn't waste a single moment trying to please the hostile hard-core conservatives most of them are instead of speaking to the moderates we want to draw away from Trump and the GOP anyway.

Those from the hard-core anti-Democrat far left will stay or go as they choose of course. Those too rigid to realize that in hating Hillary they are trying to sabotage what they say they believe in, well, no one's going to try to change their minds. The Greens, btw, are very angry at Bernie for drawing off a third or so of their supporters, so there is a home waiting for some of the locked-in ones.

[Betty Karlson]

126. Hortensis, 1) claiming millennials and lefties who don't vote for her

"literally don't know what she represents" is another variation of the "duped and complacent whippersnappers" meme that will come to haunt the Democratic party in general, and Clinton in particular. It's not an argument, it's a spinning lie. They usually have researched Clinton's record far more extensively than her worshippers. In fact: the more people get to know Clinton, the less they like what she stands for. That's why, in the words of Lawrence O'Donnell "Clinton never regains leads she has lost during an election campaign". Not-so-fun fact: she has already lost her lead over Trump.

2) I am not voting for her. I'm done with 20th century relics, and that includes the dead end called Third Way. But I wasn't always a "leaver". Nor am I "hard-core anti-Democrat far left". For a gay guy, I am pretty conservative, actually. But here's why I will never vote for her: the very moment she lost me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511483223

You want me to change my mind? Here's how:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511824845

No amount of analysts will convince me that those are expressions of some "Clinton derangement syndrome". They are the expression of a thoroughly fed-up gay millennial.

And don't even think of playing the Trump card with me. Our side has warned for months that Clinton will perform dismally against the yuuuuuge threat to the USA. If keeping him out of the White House is so important, it is not too late: you can always ask the super-delegates to vote for Bernie after all: he would bury Trump in a landslide. If you want to risk all on Clinton, that is on you. Not on me.

[Hortensis]

128. Wallowing in propaganda is not research.

Gulping the Kool-Aid is not nutrition for the brain.
Believing whatever feels good is not honesty.
All the sincerity in the world will not turn lies into truth.

[Betty Karlson]

130. projection is not retort

[Jester Messiah]

165. They got told by the moderators for it, too.

There's always going to be a few, no matter where you go.

[Andy823]

143. If you get your information from JPR

You are not getting the facts, but the hate. You can't even say Bernie will lose over there without fear of being banned. Talk about an authoritarian site, that is the best example you can find of one.

[Betty Karlson]

151. Yes, let's all pretend that every thing I say comes from JPR, so we can summarily dismiss it.

Seriously, the "shoot the messenger" mentality is reaching absurd levels. Could you at least pretend to engage the argument?

[glowing]

105. Here's the problem with that "voting record", the congress is mostly corporatist. Most of the

legislation that is passed (if anything got past) during the years that both of them were in office at the same time, was funding govt and certain programs.

NOW, if Single Payer healthcare had a vote, where would the two stand? If congress had a bill that taxed Hedge-funds at 30%, to help pay for free college, where would the two stand? If there was a bill stating min wage must be in line with a "living wage" (and a real one that actually could afford housing, food, and savings), where would they stand? I have a feeling there differences were in items like free trade agreements, Iraq War, and cutting food stamp programs.

I've seen this line pulled out of thin air time and time again like they are liberal. OUR congress is anything but despised. 9% approval rating for the lot. They do NOTHING for most of the people and constantly do more for their large donors.

[qdouble]

107. What's the point of that hypothetical when congress isn't going to magically disappear?

Whoever wins, still has to get legislation through congress. It's one of the biggest criticism against Bernie actually.... if it's difficult to pass mildly progressive legislation, what makes you think legislation that is 2 or 3 times more progressive is going to get through with no obstruction?

[glowing]

162. A bully pulpit and energized populace that doesn't go home.

And I believe he could get quite a few progressive coat tails to help him out over the next 4 yrs.

[qdouble]

169. I'm having a hard time believing that Bernie will command as much sway as his supporters think he

will. He's not bringing out more voters than Hillary or Obama. Also, I haven't seen much evidence of any president being able to ram through legislation with little to no compromise without having a super-majority. I'm sure many of his supporters would quickly become disillusioned after they see that what he's able to get through wouldn't be inline with his campaign promises.

[pangaia]

160. Ignore those people, then.

They are a tiny minority of Sanders supporters.

On the other hand, the gloating coming from supporters of the corporatist goliath is, well........

[SwampG8r]

161. 93.% similar? A chimps dna is 98% the same as yours its that 2% that makes the difference.

[Herman4747]

201. That "93%" figure comes from the inclusion of...

trivial issues and trivial votes. It certainly doesn't come from such things as surrendering control to Bush II regarding whether to invade Iraq, breaking up the big banks paying Hillary off, Medicare for all vs. incremental improvements to ObamaCare, tuition-free colleges, etc.

[qdouble]

202. Dismissing any areas in which they agree on as being trivial is just being divisive.

If you check their positions on their respective websites, they are similar. While Trump's positions are totally different. To not acknowledge that the two are closer together than the republican opposition is either dishonest or ignorant.

[Herman4747]

203. My point was not that there is an absence of agreement...

...but just that on notable issues that 93% figure is bogus.

[rjsquirrel]

131. "Little to no personal animus" lol

Yeah right.

I am stunned at the outright venomous misogyny against Hillary Clinton on this very website from dozens of Sanders backers. Every damn day.

Personal animus is most of it. Sexism and misogyny are personal. "What she represents" is your excuse. She's a liberal centrist like every other democratic president we have had in 70 years and very much in accord with our current president -- who won both terms by substantial margins and is very popular as he prepares to leave.

Marxist claptrap cannot hide the underlying misogyny. If Hillary was a man this campaign would not be nearly as vicious. And I blame Bernie personally for allowing it and proving he's another white man protecting his privilege an that of his overwhelmingly white and middle class and misogynistic supporters.

[Betty Karlson]

133. How nice of you to broaden that brush so all his supporters can be painted with it.

[rjsquirrel]

136. All you have

are sarcastic insults. Day after day.

If the brush fits wear it broadly.

Sick of Bernie bulllshit, don't care if you vote for Trump or not. Pretend your idealistic but we can all smell the sexism.


ONE MORE DAY and it is over for the white man in second place.

[Betty Karlson]

144. If you find the sarcasm insulting, it's because it's touched a nerve with you.

Not sure how sexism fits into this, but since it has been the basso continuo of the Clinton campaign for the last year or so, I imagine you included that accusation into your argument by reflex.

[rjsquirrel]

182. Oooh "I'm rubber you're glue"

Like your candidate and many of his supporters your rhetoric is infantile and obviously desperate.

Bye Bye Bernie.

[Betty Karlson]

186. No. You may be projecting.

As for despair: methinks that you guys are dreading the California results.

[BlindTiresias]

210. Just another member of the vampire castle here.

[pangaia]

158. " How can you be so tin-eared?"

Therein lies the problem.

[peace13]

92. Using the term BS is an insult.

Good luck with your math. While I will hold you responsible in November right now I simply pity you!

[qdouble]

93. I didn't know referring to a person by their initials was an insult, but whatever.

I'm confident she's going to win in November, but if in the unlikely event Trump wins and you didn't vote against him, I suggest you look in the mirror... you're part of the problem.

[peace13]

99. I'm sure you know.

[qdouble]

101. I see people type H, HRC and HC all the time... I've never seen anyone take offense to it.

BS is off limits? It's not like I was using it as a pun.

[JDPriestly]

38. Are you assuming that very few if any Democrats will cross over to vote for Trump?

I hate to say this, but I think that could be wrong.

Trump is, as I understand it, utterly anti-TPP or at least pretends to be.

Hillary's recently proclaimed anti-TPP stance is rather unbelievable.

So, we should be careful about assuming that Trump cannot attract Democrats.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. They ingore the conservadems that crossed for Reagan

and bush,

[qdouble]

96. Trump may get some white male crossover, I seriously doubt he'll gain much of any traction

among women or people of color.

[Jester Messiah]

145. True, but Hillary epitomizes "Conservadem", so no worries there.

I don't think she'll be out-flanked on the right, she might even draw off some never-Trumps. She just has to get enough of them to compensate for desertion from the progressive wing.

[Garrett78]

184. Those aren't the folks who voted for Obama.

As long as the bulk of those who voted for Obama vote for Clinton, Clinton shouldn't have much trouble reaching 270.

Also, Trump is no Reagan.

[qdouble]

95. I'm sure some will vote for Trump... but I can't imagine that most will switch at a higher rate than

normal. Being against free trade isn't an inherently left wing position, it's a nationalistic position. I'm sure Trump will appeal to some of the nationalists on the left, but he's going to turn off and energize a lot with his other bigoted positions.

[Lord Magus]

117. What you think is not based in reality.

What's "rather unbelievable" is that you actually believe Trump is "utterly anti-TPP." His only objections to TPP are gibberish involving him using his magical deal-making skills that don't actually exist to personally renegotiate it into a "better deal." Who would it be better for? Rich people like Trump naturally.

[Garrett78]

183. I specifically said "as long as they don't vote for Trump" in reference to BoBers.

As for other Democrats voting for Trump, I doubt there will be much crossover. It's hard to imagine many people who voted for Obama voting for Trump. And those who didn't vote for Obama are not the ones Clinton is counting on.

[JCMach1]

198. Exactly, there are good number of Indies and assorted lefties (even Paulistas) who wouldn't have

supported Hillary under any circumstance anyway.


And yeah, there is probably a good chance this year that one (or more) of the 3rd parties might breach the 15% threshold. I think as Trump disintegrates, some Repubs are going to take a serious looks at the Libertarians.

[MFM008]

3. No, i dont think so

some aren't democrats, when Sanders is out they will go third party or rump.
democrats will stew and simmer and by fall some will vote and some wont.
No one is going to beg anyone for a vote

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Guilty as charged

you realize you need independents to win the general election?

Ok tell you what, go for it, TRY without independents. I dare you. Just don't blame Sanders for that historic and strategic error.

And while you are at it, try without actual progressive dems. This should be entertaining.

[qdouble]

13. You think it will be entertaining to watch a racist loon get elected to prove a point?

Sorry, but most HRC supporters have better things to do then to beg some random internet posters for their vote, especially when they are more concerned about their own ego than the future of this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. I am not a democrat remember

So what your party does, well you need to actually get independents to vote for your candidate. Oh and there are more than just two on the ballot in November, But you are making so many alienating mistakes, that are strategic, that I will blame you personally.

[qdouble]

29. Enough with the bullshit. You didn't magically start hating Hillary a negative post by a Hillary

supporter. Hillary herself has said nothing to act as if she didn't want independents to vote for her. You want random internet posters to beg for your vote. It's never going to happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. This might be a shock for you

but why should I hate somebody I know from shinnola?

And don't beg, but continue to alienate people, you are doing great, make that bed, get in it, but do not blame us.

[qdouble]

39. What have I said to alienate independents in particular?

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Reread your posts

critically

Then re-read the OP critically.

[qdouble]

45. Saying that Hillary doesn't need every single Bernie supporter alienates independents?

If stating facts alienates anyone, then fuck em, quite honestly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Actually she will

this is expected to be a LOW TURNOUT election, with two very popular candidates So you need what are called early adopters in marketing to help you, This is so basic, my heard hurts. But hey. I really do not care if you do or not, but I will blame your party. and you for the loss.

Oh and by the way, Tuesday when I go and pretend to vote, my interest is not in this drama, but my local issues.

[qdouble]

53. Honestly, I think Hillary has a 90% chance of winning and I think you're pretty shit at predicting

elections. You can blame whoever you want for any result that happens, we both live with the results.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Honestly "Trump should not be the nominee"

and I did not under estimate him, This is not a normal election.

[qdouble]

58. Trump was elected by republicans. For years their whole movement was home

to bigoted xenophobes who represented the worst of humanity. Trump simply says aloud what other republican hinted at. Him winning the republican nomination may have went against predictions, but it doesn't go against demographics.

The demographics involved in winning a general election is a totally different thing and the same words that he spoke to win the nomination is going to bite him in his ass in the general. I'm highly doubtful of his chance, even though I wouldn't rule out the possibility. I'll say it's improbable, but not impossible for him to win...so I'm not going to walk on egg shells about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. And the democrats and pundits under estimated him

We predicted this pretty early on. This is not a normal election, You underestimate him... well not you, you re a cog, but your party is and is already doing the same things that did not work for the 16 wonders. In a normal year though, they would have worked.

[Lord Magus]

125. Expected by who?

Declaring that it will be a low turnout election doesn't make it so.

[Ken Burch]

51. By acting as if "Stopping Trump" is all that matters.

Yes, Trump needs to be stopped. We all know that.

But you can't hang an entire fall campaign on just that.

We have to be about something beyond just "stopping" somebody or something.

We need to be running to actually make gains, to actually move life forward.

We need to be part of dreams again.

[hobbit709]

91. Running on stopping Trump is just another variation of "Not as bad as the other guy"

And we know how well that has worked out.

I'm tired of the choices being Corporate Party R and Corporate Party D-it's still the Corporate Party.

[Shadowflash]

137. Yup.

'I'm not as bad as the other guy' doesn't work when BOTH options are unacceptable.

We need to see some progressive policies from HRC and see something that will make us want to vote for her.

The ballot will have choices beyond the top two 'lesser of two evils' options.

[MFM008]

18. I was talking about democrats

people will do as they will.
I am a progressive democrat, only Sanders supporters seem to
lump anyone who does not support him as a conservadem.
I also don't feel 4 years under Trump will be "entertaining".

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Well, there is that about Trump

I know though that I am blaming your party for these highly alienating tactics.

[qdouble]

30. Tell me all the ways you find Republicans more welcoming than democrats.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Actually neither has a big tent

got it?

[qdouble]

37. So republicans are alienating independents at the same clip?

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Yes, actually

and more and more people are actually leaving both parties

The only reason you got many to register D this term is the primary. After that, people are going to go back. This is a long term trend. This is not a secret, except for the parties.

[qdouble]

49. More people want to identify as independents...I understand that as I don't agree with

everything the party has done or stands for. However, more recently I've been identifying as a democrat because let's face it, I'll never vote republican and I consider voting 3rd party as a waste of time. I think I'm still registered as an independent, but I will vote D always.

Just because more people are identifying themselves as independent doesn't mean that the parties are losing their power/influence in any significant way. There are still no viable third parties.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. And some of us will do with our franchisse what we will do with it

suffice to say, this year you might be in for a surprise.

Though I still pretend to vote, Who I vote for will be determined by those who count the votes, all that shit that started in 2000 has now been normalized by both parties.

But here is the error you are making, Why I bother with the advise, I really do not know, Don't tell people but if you do not vote my preferred candidate, the dog gets it. Tell them what they are voting for. This is again so basic in political science...

[Duval]

219. Yep!

[MFM008]

84. If your not a democrat why the DU?

"your party" sounds dismissive and disgusted.
June 16 cant get here fast enough.

[Ken Burch]

54. Some aren't Democrats, but we should be changing the party to make them WANT to be.

We should be working to make this party the natural home of all who want to work for real change.

We could only gain strength from doing so.

[Califonz]

4. Bernie voters turning out to help elect Hillary?

Good luck with that!

[Buddyblazon]

106. I like the ongoing belief from Hillarians that she's...

Going to get crossover from republicans.



Somebody hasn't been paying attention for 20 years.

[redstateblues]

204. getting your last insults in before the 16th?

[Buddyblazon]

212. That's not an insult...

that's reality. If you think conservatives will magically crossover in droves..to vote for Hillary....you literally have not been paying attention to how much they've hated her for nearly 25 years.

They HATE her. We here at DU have always known this. As long as I've been here at least. They are about as vocal as folks could be in their searing white hatred of her.

This ain't some fantasy shit, homie. That's what's been going on for 25 years. In fact, I can't give you another politician that conservatives collectively hate more. The only person I can come up with they collectively hate as much as the do Hillary, is Jane Fonda....and that's even died down to a din for the last 20 some odd years.

Thinking if their is anybody else they hate more than Hillary...

Nope...can't think of anyone.

[Scootaloo]

6. Good luck.

The people you're trying to reach out to don't understand relationships unless they're based on concepts of control and ownership.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Yup

[MADem]

8. No, she won't. They're welcome to join us, but we'll manage without them if we have to do that.

I'll bet most of Congress will vote for her without batting an eye. I'll bet most women will vote for her. Latinos and blacks will vote overwhemingly for her. Most constituencies that haven't gotten a fair shake know that she is on their side AND she can do something about the issues that concern them.

I'll bet most moderate Republicans will vote for her. I'll bet even Republicans who love to hate her will vote for her, figuring they can campaign "against" her when they're up for re-election. They'll cut their losses and look for a stronger opponent in 4 years.

The earth isn't 'scorched.' The 'bern' was sufficient to clear away a lot of the weeds and choking plants, but Clinton will plant a beautiful and sustainable garden. Joe Biden and Barack Obama are standing by to help her till the soil from now till November.

Bernie who? Oh, yeah, that guy...

Looking forward to the Hillary Clinton presidency.

[grasswire]

12. Dream on.

Your cobbled coalition of moderate Republicans and Third Way-ers will be buried by the new reality in American politics.

Anti-establishment.

[MADem]

16. Life WILL be a dream. Count on it. Can't wait until HRC is sworn in! nt

[grasswire]

23. bookmarking. nt

[MADem]

120. Right back atcha! nt

[Ken Burch]

21. No Republican voter will ever vote against the GOP presidential ticket again.

The only time in history any of them did was 1964.

and "most of Congress"? Including the ReThug majority who have treated HRC as Satan-in-a-pantsuit since 1994?

Republicans are incapable of accepting the loss of the White House even for a single term. They simply don't think like that.

If they could all stomach Nixon, Reagan and Dubya, they'll be fine with Trump.

You can only win with a real alliance with progressives.

Why not admit it and work with us?

Why not work for the best possible chance of victory we can get?

Why not work to make this election actually matter beyond "stopping Trump"?

It's time to actually run to make gains for the people for once.

[MADem]

127. Really? You'll want to have a word with this bunch-they didn't get the memo!

http://time.com/4317643/republican-party-donald-trump-ted-cruz-hillary-clinton-indiana/

Disaffected Republicans have fallen into three groups so far. Some vowed never to vote for Trump, some said they will abandon the Republican Party entirely and some said they will actively support Clinton instead.

For those who are casting their ballots for Clinton in the fall, she appears merely as the lesser of two evils.

“At least it’s not going to disgrace the nation on the first day,” a former senior official in the George W. Bush administration said of voting for Clinton. “I don’t support her at all, but Trump is beyond the pale.”

“I think it’s a mess,”he added. “I mean what the hell even is the party?”

Ben Howe, a contributing editor at conservative website Red State, tweeted before Cruz dropped out, “I am a fiscal conservative and I am a social conservative. That will not change. But I will not vote for an egomaniacal authoritarian. Nope.” And then he followed simply with the Clinton campaign’s hashtag: #ImWithHer.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/04/25/bombshell-poll-20-republicans-vote-hillary-clinton-trump-wins.html

Bombshell Poll: Nearly 20% Of Republicans Will Vote For Hillary Clinton If Trump Wins
By Jason Easley on Mon, Apr 25th, 2016 at 4:57 pm
A new Suffolk University poll has found that 19% of Republicans say they will support Hillary Clinton if Donald Trump wins the Republican nomination.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/05/03/3775104/never-trump-has-failed-republican-party/


Now That Trump Is The Nominee, These Republicans Say They’re Voting For Hillary

...In short, the #NeverTrump movement has failed. And as that failure became abjectly clear Tuesday night, some Republicans announced they’ll be supporting Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton should she continue down the path toward her party’s nomination....

[avaistheone1]

28. Hillary who?

Good luck with that. She has no charisma, no pizzazz, is a total flip-flopper and everything she has touched has turned to ruin. Oh yeah, that's right she doesn't need any help at all.

[MADem]

132. Hillary Rodham Clinton, 45th President of the United States.

You can join us and help make history, if you'd like. We'd love to have you.

If you choose to sit this one out, fine. No one's holding you hostage. You're missing out on one of the most significant moments in our nation's history, though.

I'm participating--and I can't wait to see Madam President take that oath!

[Jim Lane]

85. Obama beat Romney by fewer than five million votes. You want to spot Trump ten million?

Obviously, as compared with 2012, many people will vote for a different party's candidate this year. Trump is such an outlier that the switches in both directions are likely to be unusually numerous, but we can reasonably hope for a net gain on the swings.

Nevertheless, the point is that the number of Sanders voters is very significant in the context of the general election. (Also, because turnout in primaries and caucuses is lower, the number of Sanders supporters who vote in the general election will exceed the number who voted in the nomination fight.) The Democrats don't need every single one of them, but they can't afford to write them off, either.

[MADem]

119. That number of which you speak grows smaller by the day. nt

[coco77]

112. Good..

That's why she doesn't need our help. I will sit this one out and enjoy the show.

[MADem]

123. That is your choice. You can sit on the sidelines of history, or you can tell your

descendants that you played an active and vital role in one of the most significant elections of your lifetime, and voted for the first woman POTUS--but hopefully, not the last.

Entirely your choice!

[coco77]

138. You know this will be a hard one for me..

I pride myself on never missing a vote. I have been going to the polls since I was a child with my mother who always told me the importance of voting.

I have been voting for decades,all Bernie supporters aren't the young. That last comment you made one of the reasons I can't vote for her. I vote for issues not because of gender.

[MADem]

167. You own your vote, do what you must.

I'd rather cut off my arm than miss this opportunity. And that's what it is--an opportunity to participate in one of the most significant events in the history of our nation.

I think it's important for me to be able to tell the young people coming up, and young girls, especially, how I worked to get the first woman POTUS elected. I DO think this election is a "Big Fucking Deal" -- to quote Joe Biden. It is utter INSANITY that Betsy Warren is the first damn female Senator from the supposedly "liberal" Commonwealth of Massachusetts, it is utter INSANITY that Massachusetts has not yet had a female governor elected "in her own right," and it is utter INSANITY that women continue to be a minority in our legislatures, which could be part of the reason why they are STILL paid less for doing the exact same work as their male counterparts.

Giving women and young girls a role model who is the leader of the free world WILL change the paradigm. Once you break a glass ceiling, it's hard as hell to go back.

I will tell all the young women I see to step over that broken glass and keep charging; there's nothing they can't accomplish. I can't wait until Clinton is sworn in--it will be a wonderful day and she will be a superb POTUS.

[grasswire]

10. I'm beginning to see the hatred and spite as some kind of impetus...

...because if they are trying to drive progressives out of the party, then they must bear the consequences.

We are the future. We have a movement that is highly energized and motivated, and our movement out numbers the Third Way significantly.

HRC will be left behind. Progressives and indies will be riding the crest of the anti-establishment tsunami.

[qdouble]

15. Who "bears the consequences" if Trump gets elected?

Sitting back and watching a fascist authoritarian get elected is a win in your book?

[grasswire]

19. It isn't Bernie voters who have allowed that possibility.

We support an honest and authentic man who has no scandal and whose policies have remained the same his whole life. He is the ideal candidate for this time, riding the wave of populism and anti-establishment fervor.

He is the most electable against Trump. We support him for that reason.

It is you who DON'T support him that are allowing Trump close to the seat of power.

You support a weak and flailing candidate who is being dogged by a criminal investigation by the FBI and whose "honest and trustworthy" poll numbers are the lowest ever recorded.

We support a strong and vigorous candidate who draws crowds in the tens of thousands and who generates so much excitement that hundreds of thousands are drawn into the party.

You support a candidate who is very lucky to get five hundred people out and who has to rely on Brock's dirty tricks continually.

Ergo, it is you who are responsible for Trump, if Hillary does not step aside and make way for the stronger candidate.

[qdouble]

27. After your candidate loses...

if you sit back and recline while Trump gets elected, you are part of the problem, period.

[KULawHawk]

57. No the problem is

a corrupt candidate on one side and an ignorant blowhard on the other.

[Lord Magus]

134. Trump IS the corrupt candidate.

Smearing Hillary with memetic corruption to confuse the issue doesn't change that.

[Scootaloo]

60. If Clinton runs a good campaign, she will win. If she doesn't, she will lose.

That you're already looking for a scapegoat to blame for a loss doesn't exactly bode well.

If you're more worried about who to blame, than working to prevent any "need" for blame, maybe you're the problem.

[qdouble]

62. I think that there's a 90% chance of Hillary winning...

I just find that supposed democrats being gleeful about Trump winning just so they can say "I told you so" disgusting.

[Scootaloo]

63. But that's exactly what you're doing

You very clearly want the opportunity to blame Sanders supporters for Trump winning. Of course, in order to have this opportunity that you want so badly, Trump has to win.

[qdouble]

64. Nope, not at all.

I'm telling them that it's disgusting that they won't stand up and fight against Trump if Bernie loses. That has nothing to do with me having any expectation of Trump winning. As I said, his victory is improbable not impossible, which makes Bernie or Bust people odd to me (if they in fact really believe in the progressive movement they claim to believe in).

If I view somebody as a traitor or sellout, that doesn't mean that I think we're going to lose.

[Scootaloo]

70. But who said anything of the sort?

Now you're just trying to spin around. You started off trying to blame Sanders supporters for a presumptive Hillary loss. Now you're trying to make like you actually meant something that you think sounds kind of smart. Problem is, that's clearly not what you were saying, and that it's not particularly smart.

Here's what I'm going to leave you with.

You wanted Hillary Clinton. I can't fathom why, exactly, but you did. You've pushed for her to be the nominee, and it looks like you're getting that. 60% of the Democratic party voters are with you, and most of the remainder will probably come along with the ride. But the bottom line is, whatever the result, you and the rest of that 60% are the people who got us into the situation. Victory or loss, it's your candidate, garnered through your votes, your efforts. If you're going to try to claim credit for her victory, but shift blame for loss, that just tells me you're about as committed to her as Trump was to any of his wives.

Instead of throwing shade and trying to preemptively blame Sanders supporters for something that hasn't and might never happen, how about you own up that Hillary Clinton is ultimately your responsibility, win or lose. You wanted her, you got her. If you manage to accept responsibility for your own decisions and choices, to actually put yourself fully behind Clinton, you can start phase two - actually campaigning for her. Show people what it is you love about her, 'cause I'm sure a great many people would reeeeeally like to hear what the allure is.

Be committed, be sincere, and - most importantly - don't be an asshole. You bought her, you got her, it's up to you to make sure she goes all the way.

[qdouble]

73. If Hillary loses because a very large amount of Bernie voters don't vote for her

then I would blame them. It doesn't mean that I think it actually will happen.

Me pondering a hypothetical is not the same thing as me actually believing that Hillary is a weak candidate or preemptively blaming Bernie supporters for anything. I have every right to call their position of not voting for nominee ridiculous if I see it as such as it is honest. I don't think this election is going to hinge on me coddling Bernie on Busters of this forum, so I'm not going to try to spare their feelings (at least not until after the primaries are over).

[Kentonio]

79. Basically you're trying to have your cake and eat it.

You chose her as your prefered candidate, and you've repeatedly said you are '90% sure she'll win'. Yet you're also trying to cover your ass in case she doesn't by saying it'll then be the Bernie supporters fault.

How about you take some responsibility for your own choices, and stop trying to pin the blame on other people? if Clinton doesn't win, then its because she was such a weak candidate that she couldn't even win more votes than Donald frikking Trump. That would be on her, and nobody else.

[qdouble]

81. Me contemplating a hypothetical situation doesn't mean that I believe Hillary will lose.

Obviously, if I thought that Hillary couldn't win, I'd be supporting Sanders. I'd be happy to vote for either candidate honestly (I didn't vote in the primary as I didn't care which person won).

Voters decide who wins. I don't blame Donald Trump for winning the republican nomination, I blame his voters. If he wins the presidency, I will blame those who vote for him and those that didn't vote against him. Candidates don't elect themselves, and as you know the best man doesn't always win. But once again, I think he will get his ass handed to him in the general. There's no contradiction or me having my cake and eating it too.

Once again, me evaluating a hypothetical scenario does not equate to me thinking Hillary is going to lose.

[Kentonio]

82. It's your hypothetical scenario that is cowardly.

You're trying to say that in the unlikely event of her losing, that it wouldn't actually be her (and by extension you) at fault, but someone else.

The point you seem to be missing is that in a normal race the supporters of the losing candidates pretty much unanimously line up behind the winning candidate. If that doesn't happen this time then its not because the supporters are suddenly different to ever before, its because the candidate isn't doing their damn job properly.

[qdouble]

83. #1) I didn't vote for either Bernie or Hillary, as I said, I don't really care which one of them

wins the nomination. I'm sure they would both make a better president than Trump and I think that both of them would push towards similar goals (Just as I believed Obama and Clinton would be similar). Sanders record and Clintons record were 93% the same in congress, I'd imagine their presidency would be similar. I think Clinton could beat Trump and I think Bernie could beat Trump.

In the hypothetical situation where either Clinton or Bernie loss the general election because a large amount of the supporters of the candidate who loss the primary didn't realize how much of a disaster Trumps presidency would be, I'd consider those people foolish.

You speak as if I'm actually fearful about Clinton losing when I'm not at all. It's you that think that she will lose and you're projecting that feeling on to me.

[Kentonio]

86. I don't think she'll lose.

Barring something outrageous like an indictment, I think she should win without any problems at all, and if she doesn't then she should be absolutely ashamed of herself. Trump is a ridiculous candidate, and any semi-decent Dem should be able to wipe the floor with the odious man.

What I'm sick of however, is this attitude that voters are the ones to blame when things go wrong, not the candidates. It's a stupid and incredibly self damaging attitude that leads to losing races. If someone doesn't vote for you, then you aren't offering them enough reason to do so, and that's your failing not theirs.

[qdouble]

88. We as a society get the candidates we deserve, not necessarily the best candidate.

I'm not going to chastise Gore or Kerry for losing to Bush. Could it be argued that they were weak candidates? Sure. If Hillary loses to Trump, could you say she was a weak candidate? Sure. However, we the voters would all have to live with that result. I see BOBers on here gleeful about Clinton getting her ass kicked by Trump and that's the type of stuff that grates me. If Trump wins, we all lose. What does it matter if you win an argument about Clinton being weak? We all suffer the consequence.

If some want to sit on the sideline and not vote against racist bully that is threatening to deport millions of people and ban an entire religion from entering the country, I'm not going to act like these are wise or blameless people.

[Kentonio]

89. Why do we keep tolerating weak candidates though?

I keep reading endless posts from people that fall over themselves to excuse every shortcoming in our candidates, and which describe any poor behavior as 'how the game is played'. Then when those candidates don't get enough votes, we say its because the electorate is lazy or dumb.

You could certainly make a case that people end up with the politicians they deserve because as the masses are so uninvolved with the political process, but it feels like the wrong way to look at it. The process has become so arcane and complicated, and the mechanics of election have become so shady and downright seedy that for most people its just not something they can understand or relate to on any level.

People need to feel like their leaders are aspirational and can provide hope for something better. If they don't get offered that promise, then they don't see any point in engaging with a system that they hate but don't see any potential for changing. When you need a billion dollars to become president, then why would a factory worker or soccer mom think they have any realistic hope of affecting how the game is played?

[qdouble]

90. For one, we don't all agree on who or what makes a weak candidate

Bernie supporters will think that he's strong because he's inspirational. While Hillary supporters will think he's weak because his platform is unrealistic and that republicans would attack him as being a communist in the general. Hillary supporters think Hillary is a good candidate because she's pragmatic and have fond memories of Bill, while Bernie supporters think she has a lot of baggage and is corrupt. Even if we were to look at other potential candidates, I'm sure arguments could be made of their strengths or weaknesses.

Beyond that, politics is partisan and cognitive dissonance is strong. I guarantee you, I could take some of Bernie's positions or statement and say that Hillary said them and Bernie supporters would vilify her and vice versa. Republicans voted for Trump when he isn't a conservative. People like who they like and hate who they hate, and it's not all based on facts or positions.

The process of governing is often boring. The problem with presidents running on "Hope and Change" platforms is that in reality, they only have king like powers in regards to the military. Everything else is compromise.

The system is broken and we should improve it, but anyone thinking that it's going to drastically change overnight is bound to be disappointed as political progress is slow in a stable society.

[Kentonio]

108. People don't generally think the system is going to change overnight

But the problem is that its not changing at all, and is in fact getting worse in many cases.

[qdouble]

109. There's always brewing dissatisfaction in politics...

There's a ton of areas where there have been measurable improvements since Obama entered office until now, yet many will act like the nation is going to hell. On the right you have people pushing to "make America great again" while forgetting that there was a time when being black, gay or a woman meant you were less than a full person. There's always going to be people nostalgic of the past and dismissive of the progress that's been made. Mostly because there will always be areas in which we should improve.

[Kentonio]

110. There have been great improvements in social progress.

Where the decline has been is in both economic equality and in how the political system itself operates. Money has become everything in politics, and until Sanders managed to find a way to get those remarkable small donations in, it was common knowledge that without huge donors you had no way to seriously effect change.

This focus on social progress is hugely important but if you ignore the other areas where people are suffering and being disenfranchied then you only see half the picture, and don't get a real understanding for why so many people are unhappy and dissatisfied. The same people raging from the left about these things are the same ones that were on the front lines fighting for social progress. It's important to recognize that to get a real understanding of what is happening at the moment.

[qdouble]

113. Well some of Sanders success in funding I'll also put to technology

Crowdfunding is a phenomenon that is somewhat has been established now, not just by Bernie...

While economic inequality is indeed a problem, it isn't a full measure of economic progress... i.e. not having equal wages doesn't mean that the standard of living has decreased. Without highly progressive taxation, it's difficult, if not impossible, for workers to keep pace with those who have capital, as the amount of hours a person can work is limited, while capital can work for the owners of capital without them having to do shit. Beyond that, technology and globalization is going to make the current way we do things unsustainable.

Every generation faces their own crises... and to that generation, it's the most important moment of all time. I'm sure they felt that way during the Great Depression, World War II and during the Cold War. Like all eras, we're going to have to do what we need to do to make sure we meet the challenges that arise and move in a positive direction.

However, the only thing that would truly make me less hopeful of our ability to deal with these challenges is if we elect a demagogue like Donald Trump. Sometimes there are lulls where not a lot of progress is made, but we're reaching a situation where we would move backwards. At worse, Hillary will probably just be Obama 3.0...Trump would be a disaster. That some would want to create a false equivalence between the two to me is just very disturbing.

[Kentonio]

124. Focusing purely on fearmongering about the GOP is not a positive route forward though.

It's the card that gets played every election, and just like the GOP trying to call Obama a socialist at every possible opportunity, it ends up being a tactic that loses any power over time. If you want votes, then 'we must stop the other guy!' isn't a longterm strategy we can rely on.

You're right that economic equality isn't a full measure of economic progress, but the economic progress is also bad. The focus is always on national economic growth, which matters not a jot to a working person who is working long hours and STILL having to claim government assistance just to support their families. Low income people are hurting, and more and more power is being transfered to the super wealthy. Did you see that study about how much effect on legislation there is between the super wealthy and normal people? If you don't have a LOT of cash to throw at the right lobbyists, you basically have no likelihood of changing how the country is run, it really is that simple.

[qdouble]

135. Focusing on defeating the other side isn't just fear mongering, it's reality.

I just can't seem to understand how some are more motivated to vote against people who are slightly different than them while contemplating sitting home and letting those on the exact opposite of the political spectrum take over. "Hillary only believes in $12 minimum wage, I'm going to stay home and watch someone who wants to eliminate the min wage altogether get elected." That's insane. Not to mention the supreme court picks. If your favorite Dem doesn't get elected, push harder next primary, don't give away the game to an authoritarian bigot...it makes no sense.

Some of the income issues are just inherent in capitalism. You can try to mitigate it some through minimum wages and progressive taxation, but I don't see any current candidate proposing anything else that would dramatically change the current trajectory. It isn't a soundbite issue.

[Kentonio]

141. Why is it so hard to understand?

31% of Americans identify as Dems, 29% as Republicans and 40% as neither. We can't just sit back and assume that those 40% are going to line up behind us because we tell them the other team are worse. We have to give people something to believe in that will improve their lives. Not just stop their lives getting worse, but actually improve their lives. People have spent decades hearing the partisan press howling doom and gloom stories about their opponents, its just not enough to make people get out and vote any more.

[qdouble]

148. When I moved I registered as an Independent... it doesn't mean that I'm not going to vote D.

It's already been shown that most independents consistently vote for Democrat or Republican, they just don't want to self-identify with a party. And don't get me wrong, it makes sense... I don't necessarily agree with all the shit that democrats do and I can agree with you that they should deliver a lot more than we are getting... but that doesn't mean I'll ever vote republican any time soon or that I view voting 3rd party as anything other than a waste of a vote in most cases.

[dchill]

14. Zee chance, she is a fat, no?

[Fumesucker]

17. Eh, the Democratic party will be better off without a bunch of young privileged malcontents

Malcontents who only want free stuff.

Older and wiser heads should prevail, they know that America is special and that's why better ideas will never, ever come to pass.

[AtomicKitten]

20. k/r I applaud your effort at peacemaking.

She will not get my vote.

[Ken Burch]

24. I understand.

I'm trying to avoid the trainwreck while there's still time.

[basselope]

31. Hillary Clinton IS the trainwreck.

If her last name was not Clinton, she would have been knocked out of the primaries LONG LONG AGO.

[Juicy_Bellows]

22. They're smug. Smug, smug will tear us apart again.

I take no joy in the division.

[lovemydog]

78. We need a new order,

no more blue Monday, a bizarre love triangle of leftists, liberals and more mainstream democrats.

[Buzz cook]

33. Clinton has reached out to Sanders supporters

I don't know how well its worked in the real world, but on the intertubes she is instantly rebuffed.

I've not seen many olive branches from the other side.

[Kentonio]

80. Like when she implied they were naive and lazy?

http://usuncut.com/politics/hillary-clinton-insults-young-voters/

[Buzz cook]

191. proving my point

Well done.

But no I meant reaching out like this.
http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/hillary-clinton-reaches-out-sanders-supporters-and-criticizes-trump

“So we are going to be coming together as a unified Democratic Party to make our case against Donald Trump because we, Senator Sanders and I, our supporters together, have so much more in common than we do with Donald Trump,” she said, before spending most of her 25-minute speech going after Trump and outlining her “progressive” agenda.

[Kentonio]

199. Proving your point, if your point was that she's tone deaf.

When you insult a large group of people, its a bit idiotic to then act surprised when they rebuff your 'efforts'.

[Buzz cook]

200. So in the internet world

Clinton shouldn't reach out to Sanders supporters.

How about in the real world?

[Kentonio]

206. She didn't 'reach out to them', she insulted them.

If that's her version of reaching out, then she should never try and reach out to anyone, it would be disasterous.

[Miles Archer]

163. Do we see this as reaching out?

The response from Clinton supporters on DU was largely "he responded to a heckler." He did more than that. He sent a message to every Sanders supporter. It was childish, petulant and un-Presidential. This wasn't some campaign drone mouthing off on a blog. This was her husband.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/05/politics/bill-clinton-bernie-sanders-protesters/index.htmlhttp://www.cnn.com/2016/06/05/politics/bill-clinton-bernie-sanders-protesters/index.html

Los Angeles (CNN)President Bill Clinton told vocal Bernie Sanders supporters at a campaign rally Sunday in Los Angeles that they would be "toast" on Tuesday.

"I don't want to pick a fight but if I were them I'd be screaming, too, 'cause if you figured this out, they're toast for Election Day," Clinton said to cheers from the crowd. "So have a good time."

[Buzz cook]

192. We might see this as reaching out

As I said in the real world.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/05/01/hillary-clinton-reaches-bernie-sanders-promise-progressive-platform.html

Hillary Clinton reached out to Bernie Sanders during an interview on CNN’s State Of The Union. Clinton praised Sanders for the good things that his campaign has done. She also said that she looks forward to working with Sanders on the platform, and promised that the Democratic platform will be progressive.

[Miles Archer]

194. I'm talking about what her husband said.

That wasn't reaching out. It was a raised middle finger.

[Buzz cook]

195. Is he running?

Was he the subject of my post?

Did you go off topic just to avoid addressing Hillary Clinton reaching out to Sanders supporters.

[Miles Archer]

196. He's an active member of the Clinton campaign.

I'm not off topic, and you are apparently refusing to answer a direct question, so we're finished here. What Bill Clinton said...stumping for his wife...was not "Hillary Clinton reaching out to Sanders supporters." It was Hillary Clinton's campaign telling Sanders supporters to get bent.

[Buzz cook]

197. Was this your direct question?

That wasn't reaching out. It was a raised middle finger.

Do you really want how Bill Clinton responded to hecklers, to be the hill you die on?

Yes we are finished here.

[jeff47]

175. Sorry, we're busy in our special place in hell looking for boys and free stuff (nt)

[Buzz cook]

193. And there we have the instant

rebuff. The intertubes is weird.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/hillary-reaches-out-to-sanders-supporters-much-more-that-unites-us-than-divides/

Hillary Clinton directly addressed Bernie Sanders supporters to try and make the case for unity in the fall.

There have been concerns about some of Sanders’ most ardent supporters either refusing to vote or possibly preferring Donald Trump over Clinton in the fall. Sanders himself has downplayed those concerns.

Clinton thanked her own supporters and said, “To all the people who supported Senator Sanders, I believe there is much more than unites us than divides us.”

[jeff47]

205. You think it's possible to turn around a year of attacks in a day?

Get out some and interact with people. You'll be surprised what you learn.

[Buzz cook]

216. That's ok

I forgive you your attacks if you forgive mine.

See how easy it is?

I do interact with people in the real world. Few of them are as fervent as the average on line person.

Even the Bernie supporters at Washington states caucus were clear in saying that they would support whoever became the nominee. They did that without being asked to do so by any of the few Clinton supporters there.
Over all there was a great sense of comity.

[Trenzalore]

35. I don't get it

Bernie is refusing to put down his sword and is threatening to disrupt the convention when it is perfectly clear that he has lost.

Yet, it is on Hillary supporters only to build unity? I get being humble in defeat but when the opponent is still insisting there is a fight what are you supposed to do?

[Tal Vez]

36. It is a shame that some supporters of each candidate (Clinton and Sanders) have convinced themselves

that there is a bigger difference between the two candidates than can be justified by reality. We should all be prepared to cheerfully support the nominee of the Democratic party in November. When a person invests time and money in a campaign, it is normal and natural to develop the belief that the other candidates are all unacceptably different. We should try to combat that delusion.

[djean111]

104. Hmmmmm......for me, the difference is that Hillary is for war and fracking and Third Way

slashing of social services and cluster bombs and crushing college debt and against single payer and the TPP. And for Wall Street. A corporate neocon Third Wayer. She lies with ease and at will and often. I don't see, honestly, how the differences could be bigger. I don't see, honestly, how a candidate like that can be a Democrat.

None of that is a delusion. I was not going to bother with the election at all, until Bernie ran, and would have been just as happy with Warren.

Hillary really is unacceptably different from Bernie. No amount of sophistry and condescension can change that.

[lmbradford]

181. +1000

[reformist2]

40. I think they are still trying to figure out how to ban Bernie & his delegates from the convention.

The HRC campaign has to know we might not sit there and cheer on every word of her acceptance speech, especially when she tries to pivot to the right with her pro-war and pro-big-business talk.

No, they cannot have us ruin her coronation like that. Hence, the need to get rid of us. Hence the 24/7 hate and slander machine.

[elleng]

41. Won't happen.

[applegrove]

44. Don't you think the GOP trolls are just hard at work trying to make this as bitter

an end to the nomination race as possible? Called rat****ing. Old GOP tactic.

[Ken Burch]

56. I'm familiar with the term(Watergate happened when I was in junior high).

Doesn't mean anybody should help 'em, though.

[applegrove]

185. Agreed.

[Scootaloo]

61. Said without even a trace of awareness at the irony n/t

[Binkie The Clown]

46. To win over Bernie supporters she's going to have to do a much better job of faking sincerity. n/t

[msongs]

47. Bernie supporters in the real world are nothing like his crowd on DU. it will not be a problem nt

[Ken Burch]

67. Hopefully, the same can be said of HRC supporters.

BTW...I've read your posts from 2008. You didn't have a good word to say for HRC then. Why are you going to the mat for her now?

[MFM008]

87. In 2008 I was all for Obama

not because I was against Hillary, I just preferred Obama.
Things were not like this then.
I just read posts, I didn't register till 2010.

[Lord Magus]

139. Probably because of the 22nd Amendment.

If Barack Obama was allowed to run for a 3rd term I'd be all in for him now too.

[Jester Messiah]

168. How does the old saying go...? Ah yes.

"Whistling past the graveyard."

[Ino]

65. Not gonna happen (nt)

[bbgrunt]

68. well, I do believe that she thinks she can win without progressives by

attracting the votes of disaffected republicans. Thus she believes she will cement the Third Way take over of the party and rid the party of the left.

[lovemydog]

75. You're a good guy KB.

There's no doubt the democratic nominee will need a lot of votes from those who supported the other candidate during the primaries. I hope everyone will imagine in their own minds why someone may have supported Bernie or why someone may have supported Hillary in the primaries.

Bernie has waged a good campaign. He and his supporters have brought many important issues to the table. Many of his supporters will help shape the future of the democratic party and I'm looking forward to it. We need liberals and leftists running and winning elections at every level - local, state and congressional.

I think there are many like us who don't read or post here. I'm tired of the vitriol expressed here by far too many. I don't mind super-partisans, but please don't run down other democratic candidates!

We must find what we have in common and celebrate our similarities and discuss our differences in strong yet fair language. Personal insults are okay every now and then, but too many folks posts here with nearly nothing but personal insults, extreme exaggerations.

Read some history books everyone. History is always a struggle. Let's rise to a higher level and work together.

It's up to each of us individually to take responsibility for our thoughts, words and deeds. I believe many who post here are very good and honorable people. Let's make that known instead of leaving a record of destructive infighting. The issues dear to us are too important - we need one another.

[onecaliberal]

178. I'm am SICK of hearing that pointing out disastrous policy stance is tearing down a candidate.

[Recursion]

94. Well, no: she needs 51% of Pennsylvanians, Floridians, and Floridians

Realistically, the Democratic nominee starts with 217 electoral votes and the Republican with 191, with 130 they're fighting over, from NH, PA, OH, VA, NC, FL, WI, IA, CO, and NV. She needs 53 of those, which could be for example:

PA, OH, FL

For that matter, PA, OH, NC

VA, NC, OH, CO

PA, OH, WI, IA

VA, NC, FL

As you can see, the most important states are ones in which she defeated Sanders in the primary. So, no: she won't need every Sanders supporter.

[beachbum bob]

97. hillary doesn't need every sanders supporters....she'll have 85-90% that matter

the fact that trump opens his mouth will drive the middle 10-15% to hillary, these voters determine the election and why we will have a landslide in November

after this embarrassing act by sanders, the biggest sore loser in modern day politics...and that will be his legacy...not leading a revolution and certainly removing any future influence. We why is reputation is well earned "doesn't play nice with others" and why he has accomplished so little in 30 years of being in congress.

[Orsino]

98. Both our candidates are pledged to support the nominee.

That will go a long way toward unity.

[Jitter65]

116. And you can believe Hillary on this because she has done it before. Bernie, on the other hand...

has already lied about his actions in this campaign. I don't believe anything he says about doing everything to keep Trump from being President because he seems to be doing everything right now to ensure that Trump will be President. And his dog whistle call is understood to be just that by the majority of his supporters.

[Orsino]

121. That's a weird assertion.

But I guess it's safe, until the convention.

[Android3.14]

100. If she is the nominee, I'll vote for her because she is a woman

It's the only reason I can think of to vote for such a profoundly flawed candidate. The terrible irony is that I am a feminist, and such reasoning goes against feminist ideals.

The Clump ticket means that no one will be able to cast an ethical vote.

[Sky Masterson]

102. I don't know if I want to be in a party composed of such people.

Let alone fight along side people whom act like republicans.
In a way that is what Bernie is fighting against and What Hillary is fighting for.
Bernie wants a new deal and Hillary wants to go back to the deck we've been playing with since Reagan.
Since her husband repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, signed Nafta, Don't ask don't tell among other things.
I am growing more left with age and the party is clinging to far center right and I'm over it.
The funny thing is that before coming back here and the bullshit lie the party pushed after Nevada I would have begrudgingly voted for her. Now I can't. I'm sorry.
I will fade back out of here after the convention if not after Tuesday, so that should make the 30 or so Hillary supporters here happy.

[baldguy]

111. *WHEN* HRC IS nominated, every Sanders voter will HAVE to get behind her to ensure Trump loses.

You're worried about "scorched earth"? STOP SCORCHING IT!

[Vinca]

115. They think she can win without Bernie voters.

Even Bill got into the act of deriding Bernie voters yesterday. Right now I'm still a vote for the Democratic candidate because a Trump presidency would be a disaster for the country. Right now. Nothing is written in stone. And Hillary needs my vote.

[arely staircase]

122. She will need all Democrats. nt

[Jester Messiah]

140. I don't see it happening.

The divide runs along multiple axes. Yes, there is the emotional angle, but there is also the matter of her policy being too far right for many progressives. The gap might have been bridged if she had set about fostering trust instead of having her army of surrogates and net trolls tear us down. As it stands now, if Bernie's out, I'm out. I doubt I'm alone in that.

[yourout]

153. Same here.....they napalmed the bridge.

Not a chance in hell I am voting for her.

[Trust Buster]

146. This thread is revisionist history. I've read hundreds of threads that call Hillary a "baby killer"

and a "war criminal" amongst other despicable things. I've seen her supporters called "Republicans", "Third Wayers", "Corporatists" and "Paid Brock operatives". Then, a thread like this one is sprinkled in. Suggesting that the Sanders supporters are sweet innocent victims and asking what the people you've been hating on so much will do to kiss your butts. DU IS A RELATIVELY SMALL COMMUNITY. WE DON'T NEED A SINGLE SANDERS SUPPORTER ON THIS SITE TO VOTE FOR HILLARY IN ORDER TO WIN. DON'T ATTACK US DAILY AND THEN PLAY VICTIM. HOW DISINGENUOUS OF YOU !!!!!!!

[Lord Magus]

147. Most of the scorching seems to be coming from Hillary-haters.

Hillary supporters responding negatively to having right-wing smears directed against her is not "scorched earth."

Also the reality is no nominee ever gets "every" voter for their primary opponents to support them in the general. There will always be some voters with a "my candidate or nobody" attitude, and since such people naturally are among the most enthusiastic supporters of their candidate they're especially likely to show up in online forums. This gives an inflated impression of how many such people a candidate actually has behind them. Such people are always the minority, usually a very small minority, of a candidate's actual supporters. Most Bernie supporters will in fact vote for Hillary in November.

[DrDan]

150. IF?? You mean "when"??

[Tarc]

152. Most of them already are behind her

The Bernie or Busters...which are disproportionally represented on the DU...do not matter.

[Miles Archer]

155. I saw a post yesterday...

...it was someone threatening to huff, and puff, and blow the house down if any Sanders supporter so much as dared utter a peep after / if / when Clinton gets the nomination. The post was 100% drama queen anger: "And I am saying right NOW that I will NOT hesitate to summon a jury the MINUTE I see any blah blah blah, blah blah blah..."

And i just put this person on ignore, because I'm an adult, and this stuff has already gotten old.

I applaud your post. It's not the first post I've seen of this nature and so far many of the responses called for "atonement," and many say "even that will not be enough," and my reaction has been "screw this."

Yeah, she needs the Sanders vote. Her husband crowing about how Sanders supporters "will be toast" isn't going to make that happen.

[NurseJackie]

156. No she won't. Just the reasonable ones...

... not the angry online warriors who wouldn't have voted for her anyway.

[CrowCityDem]

157. How do you reason with people openly rooting for an indictment? You don't coddle delusions.

[brooklynite]

159. Discounting the Bernie Brigades at DU and REDDIT...

...I calculate she'll have 99% of what she needs.

[jeff47]

174. Way too late.

The Clinton campaign decided to spend the last year attacking us, via the shit flung by Brock and similar.

They didn't attack Sanders, because they really didn't have anything they could attack without alienating lots of Democrats.
They didn't attack Republicans, because she polled worse against the Republicans.

So the campaign and its allies decided to attack Sanders supporters.

If you're going to spend a year shouting that I must be a racist, misogynist, fucking moron who is a lazy bum that just wants free stuff, I'm not going to be terribly receptive to your general election campaign.

And shouting "TRUMP!!!!" over and over again does not erase that year.

[jwirr]

189. +1

[BlindTiresias]

211. +1

[MariaThinks]

176. I really think this is in the minds of bernie supporters. Everyone wants to unite

but it seems some Bernie supporters are using the 'not treated well' perspective and threaten to vote for Trump.

[Adrahil]

177. How would Sanders have done it after some of his supporters have....

... directed so much hate and derision at Clinton supporters?

At this point, I am done placating. Either the Sandernistas acknowledge her victory aqnd the importance of beating Trump, or they do not. Some of them have whipped themselves into such a frenzy of Clinton-hate that there is likely nothing she could say that they would accept, so why bother?

[Fly by night]

180. That's not going to happen.

I will write in Bernie, as will millions more.

[anigbrowl]

187. Well, now you know how it's felt being a Hillary Clinton supporter on the internet

I got pretty tired of being called a paid shill/troll/etc. etc. for expressing even gentle disagreement with or lack of confidence in Bernie Sanders on DU and Facebook over the last several months. Most Hillary supporters around here have had to put up with a lot of ignorant counterfactual invective for a good half year now. So please give it up with the condescending 'help us help you' schtick. Aggressive insults and denouncement followed by tearful 'I'm the real victim here, we need each other' is a red flag for abusive behavior as far as I'm concerned. I've been very moderate in my expressions of disagreement during this primary season and I'm disinclined to take lessons in etiquette from erstwhile antagonists.

[auntpurl]

209. This!

I have yet to post anything uncivil on DU (as far as I know, maybe some mild snark, but I hope no one could point me to a post of mine that is rude) and I have been called a Nazi, Corporatist (?? not sure I even know what that means), paid troll, and many other rude insults. Even worse, I am confronted with RW smears from RW sources on DU all day long. This used to be a site for Democrats.

The whole, "F- your candidate and f- you! But you'd better suck up or we won't vote for her!" argument is, you're exactly right, like a gaslighting abusive relationship.

[JohnGray]

188. HRC and Bernie

Well,Bernie could do his bit for the Party and not show that he's in it for himself like Drumpf by tossing in the towel and telling his supporters to get behind Hillary. Of course that would require the Johnny come lately that he is to acknowledge facts. You want to change the Party and the platform, well joiun the damn Party and work for it. Hillary has been doing just that for years and now Bernie comes along and whines after he loses primary after primary about how the Party is "unfair " to him! How the the rules are "rigged". Got a hot flash for ya Bernie, these are the same rules that led to guy by the name of Barack Hussein Obama winning the nomination in 2008. Didn't hear Hillary complaining about the Party being "unfair" to her. Maybe Bernie and Drumpf can get together to whine about how "unfair" the Parties have been to both of them by not just declaring them to be the winners and dispensing with this democratic stuff about elections.
You want Party unity, it's all on you Bernie supporters. The seeds of the future can indeed not grow from scorched earth, so perhaps Bernie and his supporters should stop scorching the earth!

[intheflow]

190. The lesson that the DNC should have learned with Nader and the 2000 election

is that they need to court the progressive left to win. Obama did court us, and he won. Clinton does what she can to shun us. Good luck with that general election strategy.

[BlindTiresias]

213. They will never do that.

Ever. The elite in the party would rather see it all be destroyed rather than move beyond anemic, right wing liberalism.

[Stuckinthebush]

207. Most will

It's a long time until November. The specter of a Trump presidency will wake most people up.

It usually happens this way. The losing candidate's supporters yell that they won't support the winner and then come around. There is too much at stake.

[Puglover]

208. I think there is such a huge chance she will not win.

And it has nothing to do with folks on DU. It has nothing to do with politically savvy people. It has to do with people like my old pal Maren at work that has never voted in her life. That has a vague idea of who the Clintons are. That could not tell you what the 3 branches of government are if her life depended on it.

But she knows who Trump is. Not what he stands for politically but that he is "entertaining". He speaks outside the box and not like a boring plastic politician. She couldn't tell you the make up of the supreme court but knows every episode of the Kardashians. (sp?) And she has no idea of just how important government is. And if you don't think "Maren" makes up a huge part of the electorate think again.

I DO NOT WANT TRUMP TO WIN. But people out there have little love for Hillary. But then again the cynic in me wonders if Bernie would have made that much difference anyway. I hope these people say home.

Both of them have so much ugly baggage true or not true. If nothing else what an interesting election season it is going to be. And any democrat that is smugly sitting "Oh what a route this is going to be" is simply a fool IMHO. And really if Hillary does utterly demolish Trump will happily have this post shoved in my face after the election.

[Garrett78]

214. Needless to say, Trump will get tens of millions of votes. There are many Marens to be sure.

And that's disheartening. But that doesn't mean Trump won't lose in an electoral college landslide.

[Blue_Tires]

215. The first step should be the Berniestans

facing up to their role in keeping the hate machine rolling, and threatening to "burn down the party" instead of pretending they're some kind of innocent victims caught up in all this....

Right now your side can impress the hell out of me by simply stopping the death threats to all the non-believers...

[Duval]

217. I appreciate what you are trying to do.

But, if I vote for Clinton, what am I voting FOR? Holding my nose won't stop the pain in my heart, not to mention conscience. She simply cannot be trusted.

[book_worm]

218. Well, it's doubtful she will get "every single" Bernie voter

but she will still win.

[MineralMan]

220. Watch the news, Ken.

The campaign climate is changing by the minute today. Keep up, or you could be left behind. We are now in general election mode. Hillary is the nominee. Tomorrow is here.

[kadaholo]

221. "The Seeds...

"The seeds of the future cannot grow from scorched earth."