I'm an anti-war Democrat. Please help me accept Hillary!

[tecelote]

[yourpaljoey]

1. Learn to love Big Brother, isn't it time?

[tecelote]

3. OK - You sound knowledgeable...

What does soylent green taste like?

[yourpaljoey]

4. I am always too late for the green. The read and orange taste like ass :)

[tecelote]

5. Republicans.

Yeah. I know.

[NorthCarolina]

2. Close your eyes, remain financially secure and you won't ever have to worry

that your kids would be fiscally forced into the "volunteer" services. You know, the American dream!

[tecelote]

19. Yes. Swallow hard.

I do hope to all ends that Trump will not destroy the tiny thread we hang on to.

I will vote for Hillary over Trump but I will mourn the children we call collateral damage.

[yourpaljoey]

6. Is this a series question or are you trying to make us bust our guts with chuckles?

[tecelote]

7. Don't know. What do chuckles taste like?

Gotta be better than Republicans.

[yourpaljoey]

10. Chuckles are primo primo with a soupçon of rosbif' and grabies

Hey, you're good.
We should put you in movies.

[tecelote]

15. Let me know when and where.

[yourpaljoey]

17. It's in the mail

Your contract, for elebenty monies, is in the mail.
You might think you will hold out for more but as your attorney
I recommend you sus the deal immediately!

[tecelote]

21. All I need is a bus ticket.

[Scootaloo]

128. It's totally series. Tecelote is bringing up a hugh issue. Please don't cast asparagus at him.

[yourpaljoey]

130. Looks like we'll just have to OWL our way thru!

[Florencenj2point0]

8. When she voted for the AUMF

she voted to send the inspectors in to finish the job and prove there were no WMD. Now you asked and I believe her and take her at her word. So take me at MY word. I don't need to be told she is a liar and a war monger from other DU members who will come along and comment. That's bullshit.
Here is a very good diary from dkos. Read it and get some better answers than I have.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/6/1445490/-Hillary-Clinton-did-not-vote-for-war-Listen-to-her-own-words-before-the-vote

peace.

[tecelote]

13. Please show me where Hillary pushed for peace.

We bomb families and are are surprised when there are more terrorists. It's a solution that creates it's own problem.

Let's spend our taxes on sending doctors, engineers and teachers.

Your van picture looks like a hippy van from my generation but you are not a peacnik.

[yourpaljoey]

18. Don't worry. Hillary will put us on a sound war footing.

Starting with that no-fly zone.
And Iran - we see you!!!

[tecelote]

20. I hope this is sarcasm.

[swhisper1]

86. sadly, that is her stated desire

[merrily]

79. Sorry, but the AUMF gave Dimson sole and unfettered discretion.

Read it, bearing in mind that courts have long held that prefatory "Whereas" clauses are merely excess verbiage, having no legal force or effect whatever. Those legally meaningless "verbiage" recitations were there solely to set up a basis for plausible deniability, which is even worse, IMO, than voting for an honest resolution would have been.

We need to go back to the Constitution. Make Congress vote for or against war so this crap can't be pulled. At the very least, people who vote to give a turd like Dimson sole and unfettered discretion to carpet bomb Iraq or whatever else he felt like doing once he signed the vote need to take responsiblity for that vote as worded, not as argle bargled after the fact. Sorry, but there's no mulligan on a war vote and no having it every which way on a war vote.

You also cannot have it every which way. Either she didn't know better than to let Dimson dupe her or she knew what she voted for. Either way......

[RufusTFirefly]

105. The "Whereas" clauses...

"This resolution, like others before it, does not declare anything. It tells the President: Why don't you decide; we are not going to. This resolution, when you get through the pages of whereas clauses, is nothing more than a blank check. The President can decide when to use military force, how to use it, and for how long. This Vermonter does not sign blank checks.

"We have heard a lot of bellicose rhetoric, but what are the facts? I am not asking for 100 percent proof, but the administration is asking Congress to make a decision to go to war based on conflicting statements, angry assertions, and assumption based on speculation. This is not the way a great nation goes to war."

"The key words in the resolution we are considering today are remarkably similar to the infamous (Gulf of Tonkin) resolution of 38 years ago which so many Senators and so many millions of Americans came to regret. Let us not make that mistake again. Let us not pass a Tonkin Gulf resolution. Let us not set the history of our great country this way. Let us not make the mistake we made once before."

Believe it or not, that's a quote from another Vermonter, Patrick Leahy.

[merrily]

115. Yep. All else is bs.

[Vattel]

88. Read the damn IWR. It authorized Bush to invade Iraq should

he deem it necessary to defend the United States. No need for weapons inspectors to do anything.

I can't believe that at this stage of the primary people don't even know this. No wonder Hillary is going to be the winner.

[killbotfactory]

90. The inspectors didn't get to do their job, Bush told them to fuck off so he could invade.

and everyone who voted for the AUMF stood by and watched without objection.

[Scootaloo]

129. Who would have thought use of military force would come from the Authorization to Use Military Force

Golly!

Clinton either thinks we're stupid, or she's hoping we think she's dumb enough to get hoodwinked by this guy


Well, sadly I'm not stupid, and I don't think Clinton is dumb enough to get out-foxed by a shrub either.

[Celebrandil]

9. On Libya...

I can give you one characterization of the Libyan adventure from here in Europe. We see the US involvement as essential, but still way more limited than what many had hoped for. The Arab league had requested the UNSC to impose a no-fly zone in Libya to prevent Khaddafi from massacring his own population. The request was granted and a coalition was created, a coalition with Britain and France (the former colonial powers in the region) as the driving forces. America then had a choice; either stay out of trouble and make a fool of itself or willingly provide enough force to make the adventure a success. Hillary was pushing for the second alternative. If America had opted out, most of its allies would have been terribly disappointed. Why assist America in Afghanistan, if America doesn't help out when war breaks out near the border of Europe? Another motivation is to show that America respects the authority of UNSC, rather than being a power that only acts in its own self-interests.

[wyldwolf]

11. how have you ever accepted any Democratic president?

[tecelote]

16. Sorry for having high expectations.

[wyldwolf]

29. not even close to answering the question. Doesn't matter, though.

[tecelote]

31. No. You're right. I should accept the status quo.

Who cares anyway - right?

Just because we have not done it before, does not mean we should not strive to be better.

[Hortensis]

92. I believe you did move toward accepting Hillary

when you supported Bernie Sanders, Tecolote. What do you think voting with the Democratic caucus over 96% of the time meant? And please don't point to 2 votes, when those are balanced by literally dozens necessary to launch, fund and provide other support to military ventures.

The man wants to be a U.S. president. The current planetary balance has developed dependent on American power to sustain it, including dozens of treaties. Did you imagine he wouldn't use his military as Commander in Chief? He certainly never said anything like that. Imo, if you can support him, you can support Hillary. You're already 90% there.

[Ken Burch]

75. Can we ONLY elect Democratic presidents on a "bear any burden, fight any foe" defense policy?

You do recall where the mindset behind that quote got us:



http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.141577.1303358075!/image/1804565684.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/1804565684.jpg

[DCBob]

12. Her "better angels" will emerge once she is the one making the final decisions.

I am not joking nor being snarky.. I truly believe this.

[tecelote]

14. God, I hope you are right.

[DCBob]

24. I feel I know her from all the years following the Clintons.

She is a decent woman. He biggest problem is she desperately wants to be President and will do almost anything to win. I think most of mistakes she has made relate to campaigning. Once she gets behind the desk in the Oval Office she will know the campaigning is over and she will be free to be herself and I do believe down deep she is a brilliant strong honorable woman with a big heart. Those are great qualities for a President.

[tecelote]

32. I hope you are right.

Except for her hawkish tendencies, I can support her.

But way fewer people have to die. That's all I ask.

Respect all life Please.

[DCBob]

36. Totally agree on hawkish tendencies.

I hope and believe she wont be that way as President. That is one issue we need to push her on. I hope Sanders will make that a big part of what he brings to the platform at the convention.

[tecelote]

41. Agree 100%

I take heart in your belief in her. I hope you are right.

As I said earlier, I will vote for her over Trump. No question. But, this is one area that I hope she listens to the wishes of most Americans and becomes the compassionate and caring Hillary I hear about.

[Silver_Witch]

78. The campaigning is not over in the first term

IN fact it is FOUR years of campaigning - you have made me more afraid.

[DCBob]

99. I have a feeling she may not seek reelection.

She will be 72 years old in 4 years and her health is not perfect now. Her VP pick will likely be our candidate in 2020.

[swhisper1]

83. sorry, her decisions lead to disaster. I see no strength or honor but I give you her obsessive ambit

[Sheepshank]

121. this one response puts your whole premis into the garbage

flame bait...that's all this was meant to be. But given this last vitriolic dispensation all Sanders Supporters, it is not surprising.

[peace13]

113. As the saying goes...you can wish in one hand and $&it in the other....

....and see which fills up faster. Her better angels are carting baskets of money to her doorstep.

[pampango]

22. She'll be much, much more likely to resolve international problems by negotiation than

her republican opponent who is a unilateralist at heart and has no respect for international law

[tecelote]

25. Agreed.

But she is a neo-liberal at heart.

We are creating the problems our solutions pretend to resolve. Hundreds of thousand have died because of it.

It's time for more negotiations and less aggression.

How about a solution that does not accept a high level of collateral damage?

[athena]

94. I don't think you really want to accept Hillary.

You reject every argument people make.

Next time, please title your thread more accurately. For example, "I am an anti-war Democrat, and I absolutely refuse to accept Hillary."

[DCBob]

26. Yes, I think so too.

[swhisper1]

85. a very low bar

[peace13]

102. Yes, her SOS work shows us how she can solve problems peacefully!

You are great at fooling yourself!

[pampango]

108. If you don't think she respects international law more than Trump, then we fundamentally disagree.

I would have preferred Bernie but Hillary is much, much more respectful of international law and the negotiating process than is Trump.

[peace13]

110. I am saying that she has real history and real enemies that will not take her presidency lying down!

He is a fool tool that was placed on the ballot for entertainment value. If he is selected he will shoot his mouth off and be silenced by his handlers. They will dope him just as * was. Just my opinion. As far as Hillary respecting anything. I do not see her reckless handling of SOS protocol to be respectful of the safety of the American people. Even if you could prove to me that no one hacked her. Even if you could prove that she did not use insecure methods to secretly share with other organizations I would not change my feeling. There is right and wrong and things matter. If things don't matter then it doesn't matter who becomes president anymore!

[pampango]

119. I don't share your optimism that Trump is a 'fool tool' who would be 'silenced by his handlers'.

That's not the history of right wing demagogues. I hope I am wrong and you are right.

Who are Hillary's 'real enemies that will not take her presidency lying down'? Obama has had 'real enemies' in congress. My guess if that Bernie would too if he became president.

[Rex]

23. What wars did HRC start? I must have missed the memo.

Can't she at least get into office first, before we start calling her a war monger? Maybe give her a week or two?

[tecelote]

28. OMG. Wake up.

From Central and South America to the Middle East, she has not been a dove.

Please prove me wrong.

If it were not for her hawkish nature, I would be pro-Hillary. But, please, value everyone's life. Even if you do not know or understand them.

[Rex]

30. Again, what war did she start? I am fully awake and watched the BFEE destroy most of the world.

Yet, I cannot find a single war HRC started. Prove ME wrong.

[tecelote]

34. Supported.

You need to look at Honduras, Libya and Syria. There are more examples but I need to go soon an do not have time to do the research you should do.

[Rex]

37. Okay so you are saying she started wars in Honduras, Libya and Syria.

As SoS? As the senator from NY? Not saying you are wrong, just tell me how she started a war without having use of the War Powers Act.

You could say she helped start Iraq by voting for the IWR, I will take that answer. However, what I have seen these last few months are hyper-partisan attacks on HRC that hold no merit at all.

Show me the research done that show how she started three wars without being POTUS or a majority of seats in Congress.

She didn't, she knew she screwed up by voting for the IWR and hasn't made that mistake again.

IMO we are going to have to disagree on what we think about HRC, unless you can show me some proof. I HAVE looked around on the internet, she voted for the IWR...everything else is bunk.

Just like the lies about the Clinton Foundation, again show me the proof...www.opensecrets.org would like to know too.

[tecelote]

43. Good response. I hope you are right and she will bring peace to the Middle East.

[Rex]

46. I share your hope and of course I could be wrong too none of us can read her mind.

The IWR issue still comes back to bite her in the ass imo and always will. She is a smart lady and won't make that mistake again imo.

The war in Syria can be blamed on Putin, Lybia was a mess that shares equal blame among a lot of factions, Honduras can be traced back to the Reagan WH.

[tecelote]

53. You and I are not too far apart.

I support Hillary.

[Rex]

55. No not at all, we are both anti-war Dems.

That is why I wanted to post in your thread, we both hate war and want world peace. I know we've argued about some issues, but on THIS issue we agree 100%.

I want to live to see the day the MIC is dismantled.

[swhisper1]

87. It is not our job or duty to be involved in those conflicts- we just make it worse

[Vattel]

89. She urged Obama to go into Libya and get rid of Qaddafi.

Now she calls that "smart power at its best."

[stillwaiting]

103. Either you will be wrong or Robert Kagan, Henry Kissinger and the neocons supporting HRC

Will be wrong.

The neocons have worked very closely and personally with Hillary for quite some time.

Have you?

Then again, we could all just fall in line and support the politicians that neocons openly support. Because those politicians certainly strongly desire peace and no further wars. Neocons have changed. And, HRC may have changed them! Let us celebrate!!

[Rex]

120. The Cons have a proven record of being wrong most of the time.

While I have a record of being wrong 50-50 of the time, so I will stick with my bet.

[Smarmie Doofus]

27. Can't be done. Sorry.

Get ready for the NEXT one.

[icecreamfan]

33. Not possible. Where will her first conflict escalation be and which war stocks will do best?

[tecelote]

35. Hillary will have to deal with Russia.

If you could get a nickel for every life lost, you will be rich.

[icecreamfan]

40. I'd look at the companies with the most donations and closest Clinton ties if I were into that

I think you're right. It's a frightening prospect to think about conflict with Russia being a real possibility from her Syria no-fly zone (US-imposed regime change) plan.

[Rex]

49. I would rather it be someone adversarial to Russia, then someone that is a friend to the dictator.

Trump is way to cozy with Putin for my tastes.

[annavictorious]

38. Did you withhold your vote from John Kerry based on his Iraq vote?

Did you withhold your 2012 vote from Obama based on his use of drones?
Did you withhold your vote from Sanders based on the $1,000,000,000,000 war machine contract he pushed through Congress?
Did you withhold your vote from Sanders based on any of this?
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/16/blood-traces-bernies-iraq-war-hypocrisy/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/27/bernie-sanders-savior-or-seducer-of-the-anti-war-left/

In other words, were/are there any other candidates who had to pass your litmus test, or is there only one candidate whom you hold to exacting standards?

[tecelote]

51. I hold all candidates to the same standards.

I vote for who I think is the best but that does not mean I agree with everything they stand for.

I look forward to Republicans saying "Madam President" but that does not mean that I will give her a pass.

[Tarc]

39. It would have been nice if this was a genuine topic

But it seems like you're just picking fights with whoever tries to answer.

[Rex]

42. I need to see concrete evidence.

She voted for the IWR and probably regrets it to this day. She is really powerful if she started three wars as SoS. Sounds like bunk to me.

[tecelote]

45. Make light of it (I am - to my own regret). But peace is not something we discuss enough.

Tell me how you think Hillary will usher in an era of peace.

[Tarc]

72. What would you like to do to this point in time? Negotiate with ISIS?

[seabeyond]

44. Then why would you vote Sanders? He was on board with everything but one vote, for drones.

[tecelote]

47. I think Sanders is better but not perfect.

I've known people from all over this world and most of them were great human beings. People from Saudi Arabia and Syria, even China and Russia (oh my!).

America could be so much better.

I hope you are all right about Hillary. I hope she proves my suspicions wrong.

[seabeyond]

66. I do not see how Sanders is better. He is way less informed, refuses to do the homework and is

reactive. He has voted for all military and supports drones. He didn't make one vote when it was comfortable for him not to make one vote, with no risk to himself.

I personally will give the person that listens, thinks, process, does the homework. That is reasoned, over someone reactive any day.

[athena]

96. Excellent answer.

I love how the standards are so different for accepting Hillary vs. accepting Bernie.

[seabeyond]

97. I just read Sanders made a statement yesterday, ISIS must be taken out. Hmmm, military, much. Nt

[Scootaloo]

131. I suggest people read your transparency page and consider your well-earned FFR

Especially since you're the one talking about being ill-informed, reactionary, and unreasonable.

[MaggieD]

48. Easy

It's her or Trump.

See how easy that was?

[tecelote]

54. So, she is better tha Trump. Agreed.

Give her a pass?

No. I'll fight for peace. Hillary, Trump or Bernie.

How can you justify the deaths?

Please don't follow the herd.

[Vote2016]

50. Why? If you live in Florida or Ohio, I'll send you a clothespin. Otherwise join us Paradise Tanagers

[CrowCityDem]

52. It's easy. FDR, JFK, PBJ all fought wars. Bernie voted for more than Hillary.

[tecelote]

58. Doesn't make it right.

Fight for peace. Please. You know it is the right thing to do.

[CrowCityDem]

63. Pacifism doesn't ensure peace.

[tecelote]

65. Considering we are experiencing the longest period of war in U.S. history...

Current policies are proven to be worse.

You can justify the killing but I will fight for it's end.

[quaker bill]

56. I don't accept Hillary

but I will vote for her over Trump anyway. I am not clear when "acceptance" became a standard. The ballot will have a limited number of choices, and while there I will vote for one of them. It is likely that I "accept" none of the choices, as that is nearly always the case. In this case, I will be voting for Hillary because I reject Trump. Acceptance has nothing to do with it.

[MFM008]

57. I think there is one good reason

you find it in your heart.
somehow,
Im not going to talk tRump, just listen to him for 3 minutes.
If you cant you will have to not vote or write in.
I think HRC will do Ok.
Maybe when Sanders calls it a day he will say something
that will strike you.
I personally am done fighting fellow democrats/progressives.
I deleted all my anti-Bernie stuff
on my phone/facebook.
The only fight now is the gop.

[bvf]

59. Funny (but not really)

seeing posters here crossing their fingers and hoping for the best. Long since beyond cluelessness.

They'll want to keep an eye on Halliburton stock.

[tecelote]

60. Yup. It's the profit motive.

Take the profit out of our wars and they will end tomorrow.

[Rex]

61. If we are doomed, then let the play commence and the actors take the stage.

Sometimes all ya got is hope, mine mostly died in the year 2000.

[bvf]

71. I don't care about myself so much anymore

as much as I worry for my kid, and the world she and her family will inhabit.

[TheFarseer]

62. If it helps

I think trump and Hillary suck equally on foreign policy. Just remember, if you lose your job to outsourcing or an H1B visa holder and you're having trouble paying your mortgage, just give another speech at Goldman Sachs.

[840high]

64. ...!100++++

[msongs]

67. bernie is PRO-WAR. did you vote for him? He loves to spend billions on the war & killing machine

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. Hillary doesn't?

[TheFarseer]

70. Get real

Bernie didn't vote for either Iraq war. Voting to piss away money on weapons systems is certainly questionable. Casting a vote that kills thousands of our servicemen and hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis is totally wrong and she will even tell you as much.

[Ken Burch]

73. He voted for the F-35s because they were made in his state.

And he only voted for Iraq war funding(which is trivial compared to voting to let Bush get us into the war) because he didn't want to leave our troops helpless.

Your posts on this issue lose all credibility due to your primary support of HRC.

She still believes in "American exceptionalism" (i.e., "it's ok when WE do it&quot and in the idea that the only thing that makes this country relevant on international issues is our willingness to kill.

She still believes there can be such a thing as a war that has progressive or humane results...never mind that what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan proves that that is impossible.

[tammywammy]

100. The F-35 isn't made in Vermont, it's built in Fort Worth, Texas

They're stationing some F-35s with the Vermont Air National Guard in Burlington starting in 2019.

[azurnoir]

82. the F-35 was going forward no matter how Bernie voted-we'd already 'sold'* some to Israel

now about that 'sold' it's a well know fact we give Israel some $3+billion dollars a years for defense-now this money comes out of the federal budget what's not as well know is the fine print of that aid-75% of it must be spent on US based defense company's such as Lockheed who is the one building - the F-35 - out the tax payers hands and into the pockets of MIC

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

68. This time she'll be different. A kinder, gentler, Hillary will emerge.

[yourpaljoey]

127. This time, no more Mrs. Nice Gal!

There shall be an accounting.
Hear that Putin!!!

[Lil Missy]

74. You don't need to accept her. It's up to you alone whether you do or not.

[Silver_Witch]

76. No I am sorry I can not help you.

[Tiggeroshii]

77. Do you want authoritarianism in America?

Apparently that's our only alternative at this point.

[JHB]

80. Trump

Hillary voted for the AUMF, but Trump's foreign policy apparatus will be populated by the Iraq invasion's architects.

Plus, federal court judges: not just the Supremes, but all of them. They're the easiest, most low-resistance bone to throw to establishment conservatives. They will affect the courts for decades past any HClinton administration, and if Trump wins they will be chosen by the most foaming conservative ideologues, because they are the ones who will keep demanding it.

[swhisper1]

84. you are the first person who knows what Trump will do

personally, I think his brain is unmappable. He talks like bagdad bob yet all his life, he has been a carpetbagger.

It is Clinton who spouts about attacking Iran

I agree about the judges, but if the Dems would grow some balls and block his choices, that would not be an issue. The only defense against Trump is the Senate.

[Pastiche423]

81. No, I can't

[Vattel]

91. No one with any sense about issues of war and peace can accept Hillary

as anything but the lesser of two evils.

[peace13]

104. She comes with her own ready collection of enemies.

I anticipate quick retaliation if she is selected. They will have to send a message to her to stop. We will pay with innocent lives. .....again.

[Fumesucker]

93. Close your eyes and think of England

[B Calm]

95. Have you tried a clothes pin?

[brooklynite]

98. Three days of petty insults left...

[seabeyond]

106. Damn tiring. Nt.

[peace13]

101. The time is more than right....

......to stand up for what we believe in. No more wars. Stop the killing! Believe what you already know is true.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

107. Four words are all I have for you: Donald "Pig-Vomit" Trump... other than that, I can't help you.

[NCTraveler]

109. One of the most difficult areas to sell progressives on with respect to Clinton.

I do think Clinton is more measured than she gets credit for. Fair game considering her IWR vote. At the same time, if you were all on for Sanders, you aren't that far off from Clinton. Neither are close to doves. I don't accept the argument that one can be all on board for Sanders in this area yet needs to be sold on Clinton. They are both more hawkish than most of us would like.

[peace13]

111. You have to consider that Clinton has baggage that some will never forgive..

...real and true discrepancies in her communication and actions. It's not so much about Bernie. She has written her story and people have been paying attention. You can't change that. People who are willing to take a big swallow and vote for Hill have not lived long enough to understand that the only way to write future history is to take a stand and make a difference.

[seabeyond]

112. Most of that story is written by people that fear her, are jealous and petty. Sanders jumped on

Last edited Mon Jun 13, 2016, 06:18 PM - Edit history (1)

with the smears.

[NCTraveler]

118. I simply meant what I said.

"You can't change that. "

I would never try to.

[okieinpain]

114. If you don't mind me asking, what is a

Anti-war democrat. Do you mean no war at all or war only to defend ones self.

[NurseJackie]

116. Binary argument. It's meant to suggest that if someone supports Hillary, then they are "pro-war" ...

... or the OP is just basking on their own vanity, as if saying "I'm better than you".

[okieinpain]

125. Thanks. N/t

[kadaholo]

117. You Might Want to Check Out This Video...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017384775

[EndElectoral]

122. You're on your own.

[Bill USA]

123. take a good course on Reality and forget the bumper sticker/sound bytes you've seen/heard

[MyNameGoesHere]

124. Someone remind me how when Sanders is president all wars are going to

Just stop? Unicorn horn dust?

[valerief]

126. I don't have hope for America. Someone stole my Bernie sign this weekend.

The DINO march is on.

[Nye Bevan]

132. President Obama knows and understands Hillary's approach to international issues

probably better than anyone. If he endorses Hillary for president, that's good enough for me.