2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy Refusing To Vote For Clinton & Risking A Trump Presidency Is A Privileged Choice
[link:https://www.romper.com/p/why-refusing-to-vote-for-clinton-risking-a-trump-presidency-is-a-privileged-choice-12084|
https://www.romper.com/p/why-refusing-to-vote-for-clinton-risking-a-trump-presidency-is-a-privileged-choice-12084
Written by a Bernie supporter. I know this general sentiment has already been posted here several times, but I think it's very well put. As a Bernie supporter I completely agree.
...but what about when Trump nominates an uber right wing justice to the Supreme Court who decides to wipe out a woman's right to choose? Or he actually somehow manages to pass a ban on all Muslims from entering the United States? Or what if he does try to sign a law allowing journalists to be thrown in jail for criticizing politicians? As informed voters, we are supposed to take people running for office even when they have zero experience at their word and at their platform.
...So, what's confusing, then, is how any of those things affect the average Bernie or Bust-er. It's nice when people say they understand and care about the suffering of millions of women who could be denied access to essential healthcare, or the hundreds of thousands of Muslims who could be denied entry to the country, or the hundreds of jailed journalists, but to not have to worry about being one of those people is something else entirely. People who are forfeiting their votes should be OK with the idea that life could get harder for Muslims, immigrants, generally, and for people abroad (because Trump won't know what to do about a threat of terrorism).
...In what is shaping up to be an historic general election for so many reasons, the choice to vote for anyone but Clinton or worse yet, to not vote at all undermines the fundamental principle of democracy: That votes count, that voices matter, and that both of those things affect others. And, to be perfectly candid abstaining from voting at all in the general election is just lazy wannabe slacktivism at its worst. If those voters who've been "Berned" feel the need to bust the democratic process by not voting at all, then how invested could they have really been in the issues that Sanders promoted on his campaign? Choosing not to vote at all because your candidate didn't make the ticket is a short-sighted political temper tantrum that does nothing to help anyone or advance any political cause you supported.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)but do not believe the other choices support those causes.
Pretty simple imo.
HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)that you would be ambivilent towards whether or not Trump or Clinton became president because you don't think it would have an effect on you personally?
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I can not support Clinton and I would never support Trump.
HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)a President Trump would lead to worse outcomes for people than a Democratic administration? You don't think Muslims would have it worse, immigrants would have it worse, the poor would have it worse, women would have it worse, the environment would have it worse? You don't think we would be more likely to get gun control measures under Clinton? You don't think we would get liberal judges that could overturn Citizens United? I want to understand exactly what your position is. Maybe you just don't care about these things because they are not your pet issue and don't impact you directly?
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Or is voting for HRC the only method of fighting him you will accept?
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)One of the 99
(2,280 posts)To quote Bernie supporter Robert Reich:
Which brings me to those of you who say theres no real difference between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.
Thats just plain wrong. Trump has revealed himself to be a narcissistic, xenophobic, hatemonger who, if elected, would legitimize bigotry, appoint Supreme Court justices with terrible values, and have direct access to the button that could set off a nuclear war.
...
I cant criticize anyone for voting their conscience, of course. But your conscience should know that a decision not to vote for Hillary, should she become the Democratic nominee, is a de facto decision to help Donald Trump.
http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/advice-for-divided-democrats_b_10162184.html
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)While you folks talk cloud talk.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)and fellow citizens.
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primaries so if it were up to me it would be Bernie vs. Trump in the GE. Now that Hillary is the nominee, voting for her (particularly if you live in a swing state) is the only method to defeat Trump. Staying home or writing in Bernie Sanders or voting for Jill Stein isn't a method period.
Silver_Witch
(1,820 posts)As a woman I trust neither candidate to fight for us IF our rights would make a good bargaining chip!
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)Let's see...a woman's right to choose gone with the courts, the courts, war -possibly nuclear, harassment and perhaps murder of LGBT and anyone with a 'foreign' last name...the choice is clear...and your behavior irresponsible.
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)Both will harm our country in different ways. Hillary through foreign policy and poor economic choices that do very little to benefit the working poor. Trump by exploiting social issues and the same foreign policy issues.
It's like asking if I want to drink urine or eat crap.
floriduck
(2,262 posts)Exilednight
(9,359 posts)floriduck
(2,262 posts)qdouble
(891 posts)lot of deflection.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)No more enabling.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Slacktavism at its finest.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)in 2000 to hit rock bottom with Bush, right? Because that really changed a lot, didn't it? I'm guessing you weren't one of the ones that had to "hit rock bottom" under Bush. You probably didn't die in the Middle East or die after Hurricane Katrina. And you probably won't be the one hitting rock bottom under a President Trump. But you'll sacrifice others for that, huh?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Why does blaming Nader make you feel better? It is up to Democrats to get enough of the vote so the winner is clear. And to do so honestly.
If you ask me, Gore gave up much too easily. Thankfully, Bernie doesn't.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)SCOTUS would not have been involved....he is dead to me as is the green traitor party. All they ever accomplish is to tear things down.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Ridiculous.
swhisper1
(851 posts)in his niche, he was great, and that niche is rising again
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)not a traitor. Quite surreal to see such statements made here.
swhisper1
(851 posts)yes, he always was arrogant, but fearless
Raster
(20,998 posts)You don't think the 200,000 registered Florida Dems that voted for Bush* had anything to do with it?
Nader had every right to run, and No, I did not vote for him. But I get so shit-fed-full of the Nader shit, I could scream. Crack a book. Learn some history. There were MANY REASONS Cheney*/Bush* stole the White House, and none of them were or are Ralph Nader.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)Let's forget that Nader took Republican money to run TV ads that lied about Gore's positions on the West Coast causing Gore to divert money from Florida to counter those ads. Let's forget that Nader cost Gore New Hampshire which would have made Florida irrelevant.
Let's just look at Florida:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html
Also see: https://www.quora.com/Did-Ralph-Naders-candidacy-cost-the-Democrats-the-White-House-in-2000
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)Easy to say...that it is fine for others to suffer at the hands of Trump because then real change will come. I doubt it very much first of all...and secondly, how are you different from a Republican who does not give a crap about people and cares only about a political philosophy. How many died during Katrina or in the wars? How many died without health care...no wonder Trump thinks he can get Bernie voters.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Quite naive but interesting.
swhisper1
(851 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)They would not be able to starve babies, end health care, privatize social security and medicare, send medicaid completely to the states...give the banks the house.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)But I am sure that is fine with some here.
peace13
(11,076 posts)Her record speaks for itself. Good luck.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)And anyone who reads Paul Ryan's budget or anti-poverty program knows what the GOP will do...well tomorrow I won't have to listen to your nonsense anymore...you can join the green traitors. A progressive Democrat you are not.
But I won't be joining traitors. I won't be working to elect anyone who coined the phrase super predators. I can tell you that. I won't vote for that.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)nukes in Syria and possibly Europe.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)One of the 99
(2,280 posts)With each loss to the GOP the country has moved farther to the right. That's how we got here in the first place.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Thanks for setting me straight.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)to the GOP winning three elections in a row and five of the previous six. That's history.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)One of the 99
(2,280 posts)Are you disputing that the GOP won elections in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984 and 1988?
To quote Robert Reich:
Some of you agree a Trump presidency would be a disaster but claim it would galvanize a forceful progressive movement in response.
Thats unlikely. Rarely if ever in history has a sharp swing to the right moved the political pendulum further back in the opposite direction. Instead, it tends to move the center rightward, as did Ronald Reagans presidency.
http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/advice-for-divided-democrats_b_10162184.html
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)One of the 99
(2,280 posts)Not surprising.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)One of the 99
(2,280 posts)anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)You are what comes of watching too much TV and not reading enough; you think dramatic reactions constitute an argument, because that's the only sort of discourse you're able to understand. It's sad that you can't even put a few sentences together to explain your theory, but instead just randomly regurgitate catchphrases you've heard from other people without really understanding how they fit together.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)You don't strike me as the sharpest knife in the drawer...perhaps that's why your posts read like bad TV dialog.
swhisper1
(851 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)One of the 99
(2,280 posts)and then threw 3 presidential elections in a row. Get real.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)They were wrong...they got Bush elected...and we all paid the price. The greens are dead to me as is Nader.
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)But I've noticed that analysis isn't really your thing to start with.
redStateBlueHeart
(265 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)You have to have the privilege to know you'll survive "rock bottom" to let that happen.
anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)It's so democratic now, so WW2 was totally worth it, amirite?
See, I have a bit of an issue with your position because when Donald Trump talks about rounding up immigrants he dislikes and sending him out of the country that's going to personally affect me, and I have no desire for my life to hit rock bottom on the floor of a cattle car so you can anoint yourself the prophet of change.
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)I can appreciate their sentiment but it's another appeal to fear and guilt shame if you somehow cant/won't vote for either of them.
HarmonyRockets
(397 posts)for those that do nothing to stop Trump from becoming president on election day (particularly in swing states)?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)swhisper1
(851 posts)anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)Trump orbably won't win, but he could. The assumption that such an outcome would be impossible is childishly naive.
swhisper1
(851 posts)BlueStater
(7,596 posts)...that she can't enough people to vote for her in a general election, than that will solely be the fault of her and her supporters who made her the Democratic nominee.
swhisper1
(851 posts)choices being made by corp owned partys and super delegates. Only Trump has been able to break through the walls with shock value alone. The election process stinks and is NOT voter friendly
TheFarseer
(9,321 posts)Millionaires who support gay marriage are her core constituency. How long do you expect us to vote on social issues when our jobs are disappearing, I can't afford to go see a doctor and we can't send our kids to college?
potone
(1,701 posts)Our economy has become so skewed toward the wealthy that many people are just barely hanging on. I don't think Hillary really understands this. She lives in a world of the uber wealthy and powerful.
Trump is not the answer, but he taps into that economic fear by scapegoating illegal immigrants as the source of our economic woes.
I am so frightened at the thought that he could win that I will vote for Hillary. But I live in what is probably going to be a swing state. If I didn't I would write in Bernie or vote for Jill Stein.
I have seen many presidential elections, but never one with such a dismal choice of candidates. I understand why some Bernie supporters cannot face the thought of voting for Hillary. She was crammed down our throats from the beginning, and her pandering to voters by repeatedly changing her positions does not inspire any confidence or respect.
She will be good, for the most part, on social issues, but not on economic, foreign policy or environmental issues.
I think we are going to be in for a long four years, no matter what.
TheFarseer
(9,321 posts)and the Republicans here have already convinced themselves that Trump is going to be just the president we need. Right now, I just don't see myself voting for either Trump or Hill. I feel free to vote for whoever since this is not a swing state.
choie
(4,111 posts)I'm privileged to live in a state that will elect Clinton overwhelmingly, so I can write in Bernie Sanders and not compromise my values..
swhisper1
(851 posts)choie
(4,111 posts)Clinton is unpopular if you're worrying about that scenario..
swhisper1
(851 posts)yourout
(7,527 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)peace13
(11,076 posts)Hillary sets a bad example because her best defense is projection. It's not useful out here. The woman who represents the privileged does not get to point her finger at anyone. Even if every Bernie voter voted for Hill the poorest among us, the unprivileged, would not revive even a nod from the woman. News flash for the author, life is gonna get a lot harder for 99 percent of the people and the people who are picking up the pieces for those in need will still be doing it. Regardless of who they do or do not vote for.
elljay
(1,178 posts)It is like dealing with an addicted loved one. You comfort, you help, then you start covering for him, then paying debts, and it goes on and on and on. At some point, you have to just step away and either he will hit bottom and decide to reform, or not. As a progressive, with every presidential election I have voted to enable the addiction. Obama better than Romney or McCain, Kerry better than Bush and so on. When the Republicans won, we moved far to the right. When the Democrats won, we still moved to the right. People make the decision about when to cut off the addict at different times. There are very many principled progressives who have reached that point already and just cannot morally vote once again to enable the addiction. You may not agree with them, but they are not doing this to screw you or the country. They truly believe they are doing this to end the destructive moving to the right so we can get back on track. They are unlikely to affect the results this time but if they do, it is a sign that the Democratic Party has finally alienated so much of its base that they deserve to lose. I live in California so I have no concerns that my state will vote for Trump. At the moment I intend to hold my nose and vote for Hillary as the least conservative candidate but I will not tolerate any further pandering to the right wing. If she veers to the right I will switch to Jill Stein. I am not alone.
swhisper1
(851 posts)elljay
(1,178 posts)There comes a point where you have to take a stand. I'm really struggling with this because I just don't want to support the Third Way any more. However, the SCOTUS is in play. I was in law school when Scalia was appointed and I was just horrified. Then he got worse over the years. By padding the courts with extremists, the Republicans are able to destroy each and every progressive law passed as well as our Constitutional rights. The next president has between 1-3 appointments which will affect us for decades. Whatever our feelings about Bill Clinton, he did appoint RBG to the Court. Even if not who I would pick, Hillary's appointments would clearly be an improvement over the Scalia-types Trump would pick.
swhisper1
(851 posts)Hillarys would be corp and bank friendly, so its a toss up and wont make me vote for either
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)we won't be able to for four years...seriously you people have no understanding of what we face...and there is a very good chance if Hillary loses, we will not get the senate...Bush was president and we had the Senate...got Alito and Roberts...both who will overturn Roe V Wade with but one more vote...you want money out of politics...how likely is that if we lose the courts? Bernie and his supporters have shown their contempt for women's issues...all along and that they have no understanding of the hell on earth a Trump presidency would cause. I have no regard for Bernie or those who continue to support him. I want nothing to do with anything that he proposes...thus, his revolution will be kind of one sided...most women and people of color have no interest in what he is peddling.
elljay
(1,178 posts)Being a woman myself, a Bernie supporter, and living in a diverse area in which very many women and minorities supported Bernie, I find your slurs unnecessary and inappropriate. We don't have contempt for women and minorities; we happen to be progressives who don't support a moderate/conservative candidate while older women and older African Americans did support the conservative candidate. It is their right to be more conservative and ours to be more progressive. The racist/sexist slurs are not correct and only confirm opinions that the Democratic Party has lost its path as it has drifted to the right.
elljay
(1,178 posts)98 Senators, including all 47 Dems, voted for Scalia. For the Alito nomination, Dems tried to filibuster but couldn't get the support of conservative democratic senators. In the confirmation vote, 55-42, 4 Dems votes for Alito. Thomas was confirmed 52-48 with 11 Dems supporting him. Roberts was confirmed 78-22 with 23 Democrats' support, including Russ Feingold, Ron Widen, Carl Levin and Pat Leahy. If we couldn't stop even Thomas, Mr Long Dong Silver, then there is no way we can stop all Trump appointees, especially with so many conservative Democratic senators.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I hope you know that someone out here in the ether thinks this should be an OP. However, it would put you at risk to post it (IMHO).
Dems to Win
(2,161 posts)Or maybe war with Russia? PNAC's Robert Kagan is a big Hillary supporter, and calls her a neo-con.
It's really not crystal clear to me whether a vote for Trump or Hillary will minimize the resultant human suffering. Trump at least has sense enough to call the Iraq War a huge mistake and says we would be better off if we'd invested that money in infrastructure at home.
Trump has also called the Saudis fat cows, and says we shouldn't be defending them. Hillary has accepted millions from the Saudis for her Foundation, and can be expected to be as close buddies with them as W was. As a feminist, it troubles me to see the US have such a close relationship with a cruel misogynistic, homophobic regime.
So many people act as if the choice is obvious. But I can see reasons why not to vote for Hillary, and of course there are myriad reasons not to vote for Trump. A firm, principled stance for neither Trump nor Clinton can be the reasonable choice when faced with 2 bad options.
It's not all about temper tantrums.
swhisper1
(851 posts)swhisper1
(851 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)It's not a very good one.
swhisper1
(851 posts)I hope it is temporary, but I fear the good writers have all left, only the boring left to pat each others backs and talk about the weather, pretty soon it will be pics of grandchildren and cats, just another facebook
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Keiko Zoll is a digital storyteller, founder and editor-in-chief for The Infertility Voice, mom, wife, and maker of amazing pancakes. She is a teeny bit obsessed with fonts and Starbucks Cold Brew. She geeks out in the greater Boston area with her husband, toddler son, and two cats.
https://www.romper.com/authors/keiko-zoll-1419
jalan48
(13,856 posts)It seems like that would solve the problem.
swhisper1
(851 posts)anigbrowl
(13,889 posts)Bernie Sanders has great ideas, but so what? I have great ideas, do you want me as President? Miss World contestants have great ideas, every single one of them I have ever heard claims to be a an ardest supporter of world peace. So if we just elect beauty queen contestants to positions of power, all war and suffering will end overnight, right?
Ideas are cheap, in fact they're virtually free. But a President's job is to execute, not philosophize. Hillary Clinton has offered a whole lot of detailed plans on how she would like to run the government, with lots of specifics about things like budget allocation for specific regulatory agencies and so on. Many of these proposals are rather boring but they do reflect an excellent understanding of how the government actually functions. Bernie Sanders has many exciting proposals but little detail on how he expects to go about implementing them, and when I've asked people here for insight over the months of this primary campaign I get stupid non-answers like 'he will hire some experts to work out the details,' which is a long way to say 'no clue.'
drm604
(16,230 posts)But there seems to be no convincing some people.
Politics often consists of compromise and, like so much in the real world, if often consists of choosing the lesser evil. Not that Hillary is evil, mind you, but even if someone does consider her evil, it should be obvious to anyone on the left that Trump is a much greater evil by magnitudes.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)other states) voting for Jill Stein at the top of the ticket and Democrats down ballot won't "elect Trump."
I'll vote Democrat down-ballot but I'll decide how I'll vote/contribute/campaign at the top of the ticket based on the platform, the VP choice, the party rules reform, and the role of progressives at the convention.
The boogieman tactic shouldn't frighten anyone outside of a couple of swing states into violating his or her conscience by voting for someone who doesn't share our values. Party unity is fine and commendable in Ohio and Florida, but it is not necessary to sacrifice one's conscience in the other 48 states.
swhisper1
(851 posts)One Black Sheep
(458 posts)and everyone should exercise that privilege.
swhisper1
(851 posts)and elderly won't have to wait in line for hours, Our voting system sucks big time
One Black Sheep
(458 posts)Agreed, it does. Many improvements could be done.
Pastiche423
(15,406 posts)After 2008, I finally gave myself permission to only vote for someone that mirrored my views. No more lesser of two evils ever again!
And this...
"Choosing not to vote at all because your candidate didn't make the ticket is a short-sighted political temper tantrum that does nothing to help anyone or advance any political cause you supported."
Is nothing but crap.
OnDoutside
(19,952 posts)leftofcool
(19,460 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Save your guilt trip for someone who cares about bullshit.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)SDJay
(1,089 posts)I understand why things would get nasty during a tough primary battle - they always do. That's just the nature of things when people are committed to their candidate.
That said, just over the past couple of days on this here Webby site I've seen the following more than once:
If you don't vote for HRC, you are a/n:
Asshole bathing in white privilege
Helping Drumpf win
Racist
Misogynist
Spoiled millennial puke
"Vote for HRC or you are a (insert awful insult)" is not going to bring people together. That's what should be happening now. Not only because we all need to do what's necessary to keep that orange pig away from a position where he can literally end the world but because before long the 'soft middle' is going to start paying more attention. If they see this kind of crap from the winning side of the primary, it's going to be a turn-off.
Time to be positive. If folks who supported Bernie (and I was one of them) want to keep throwing bombs, let them and rise above it. Those messages will die down. The microscope at this point in general is on the primary winner and the message that's being put out by her, her staff and for some people her supporters.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)And I am sure that Bernie would be the first person to agree with that.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)It's a remnant of the Jim Crow era, most prevalent in Southern States as a way of minimizing black voting now that they can't outright eliminate it.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)Are unsavory ... They are lamentable ...
I may or may not vote for Hillary ... Haven't made up my mind yet ...
Yet, when I read crap like this ... I guess the kindergarten teacher in you thought the paddle would be a good idea ... Au Contraire, mon frere ...
I place you on ignore, and go about deciding on my own how to vote, without bothering with your concerns or opinions ...
See how that works? ... it's a beautiful thing ...
democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)I think this applies to those who live in swing states and refuse to vote for Hillary. For people who live in solidly red or solidly blue states, I don't think casting a protest vote reflects privilege, because those of us who live in non-swing states know that how we vote will have no impact on whether or not Trump becomes president.
I plan to vote for Hillary but if I disliked her as much as some Bernie supporters do, I probably wouldn't, because if she is struggling to win my state she is not winning the election. Period.