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cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:40 PM Jun 2016

The world is upside down when "Democrats" think of knowledge and education as a commodity.

Education available to everyone who wants it is "free shit", farted by unicorns. Not for the masses. Save us from The Great Unwashed having a hand up instead of a handout. Suddenly, in the name of electing a woman, whose "turn" it is, knowledge and education are commodities to be profited from. How the fuck do you Hillary supporters live with yourselves... that's what I want to know. The shit you've been spouting about education and who's gotta pay for it is as far from a democratic ideal as I've ever seen anyone stray.

Someone actually posted that Bernie Sanders' policies are aimed at middle class white men, and not PoC or women. Yeah... income inequality is a white middle class male problem. Makes me fucking dizzy. You Hillary supporters lap that shit up though.

The world is truly upside down.

48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The world is upside down when "Democrats" think of knowledge and education as a commodity. (Original Post) cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 OP
I have two kids in college right now. nt Demsrule86 Jun 2016 #1
And? cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 #2
Translation. His kids aren't getting "free stuff" Autumn Jun 2016 #15
A righteous k & r for a righteous rant. djean111 Jun 2016 #3
The same Dems who saved us from "welfare queens" and will save us from broke retirees next. arcane1 Jun 2016 #4
When access to Health Care is considered a commoddity (as it is in the ACA), bvar22 Jun 2016 #5
Free Stuff!!11 arcane1 Jun 2016 #7
It was sickening to see that Conservative Republican Mantra "Free Stuff" bvar22 Jun 2016 #12
Indeed NWCorona Jun 2016 #30
Neo liberals have ruined this party. nt vintx Jun 2016 #6
In CA, we had tuition free State Universities... TheProgressive Jun 2016 #8
Equality of opportunity and upward mobility used to be The American Way. QC Jun 2016 #11
Republicans and I guess Clinton want ........the citizenry ignorant and stupid. DJ13 Jun 2016 #26
k & r LWolf Jun 2016 #9
Remember when Mitt Romney told a young woman that QC Jun 2016 #10
It is indead surreal.... alittlelark Jun 2016 #13
I will never understand them. SamKnause Jun 2016 #14
Nonsense. CorkySt.Clair Jun 2016 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author bvar22 Jun 2016 #43
So many lies lostnfound Jun 2016 #16
College education was free for me in the 80s, and free for my kids now Land Shark Jun 2016 #17
"Free stuff" Triana Jun 2016 #18
Recommend! nt babylonsister Jun 2016 #19
Big K&R! MelissaB Jun 2016 #20
Free college, I read it here on DU RobertEarl Jun 2016 #21
I think you are confusing being "against free college for all" with 'don't give a damn'...actually, eastwestdem Jun 2016 #22
Millions and millions and millions can't afford it. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 #23
It's way more than that. This is a couple months old, but tells you how much your taxes eastwestdem Jun 2016 #24
"Over-solving the problem". That made me laugh so hard I snarfed my wine. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 #25
The Vox site was dbunked Avalon Sparks Jun 2016 #32
Huh? NWCorona Jun 2016 #33
Of course, but they prefer NorthCarolina Jun 2016 #36
Sadly you are right about that. NWCorona Jun 2016 #37
Bernie's Free Tuition at Public Universities would be paid for... bvar22 Jun 2016 #44
It is true that we have been propagandized to be divisive, mistrustful, and ever-watchful PatrickforO Jun 2016 #28
Great post Avalon Sparks Jun 2016 #34
Fantastic post... ljm2002 Jun 2016 #38
One of the best posts I've ever seen on DU. Should be its own OP. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2016 #40
No, go ahead. I like your posts, too. PatrickforO Jun 2016 #47
Excellent post! n/t Kermitt Gribble Jun 2016 #45
and healthcare Doctor_J Jun 2016 #29
The "New" Democratic leadership sees everything as a commodity hobbit709 Jun 2016 #31
The willfull blindness to reality (cognitive dissonance) in those claiming to be Democrats... 99Forever Jun 2016 #35
Hillary's plan is better. ucrdem Jun 2016 #39
And healthcare. That's why the 2 parties are sometimes hard to tell apart. Vinca Jun 2016 #41
It helps not to mistake a demoralization program felix_numinous Jun 2016 #42
I hate to break this to you, okasha Jun 2016 #46
Arne Duncan is old news. Orsino Jun 2016 #48
 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
3. A righteous k & r for a righteous rant.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:45 PM
Jun 2016

I assume it has been alerted on.

But - spot on, and it is a damned shame what the party has devolved into.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
4. The same Dems who saved us from "welfare queens" and will save us from broke retirees next.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:49 PM
Jun 2016

They'll tell us that paying an insurance premium is better for your health than an actual visit to the doctor.

The best way to secure good-paying jobs here is to make it easier to export them to less expensive countries.

"War is peace"

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
5. When access to Health Care is considered a commoddity (as it is in the ACA),
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:52 PM
Jun 2016

to be sold to Americans by parasitic For Profit Health Insurance Companies who rake 15% off the top,
then something is bad wrong.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be[font size=3] established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.[/font]

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.


All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

[font size=3]America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens.[/font]


Please note that the above are stipulated as Basic Human RIGHTS to be protected by our government,
and NOT as COMMODITIES to be SOLD to Americans by For Profit Corporations.

My vote and support WILL go to whoever BEST embodies these values.
I am too old and tired to again support the Least of the Worst.
Let the chips fall where they may.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
12. It was sickening to see that Conservative Republican Mantra "Free Stuff"
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:19 PM
Jun 2016

turn up on DU and in the Hillary campaign.
That is a Sean Hannity/Rush Limbaugh talking point.
Sickening for anybody who calls themselves a Democrat,
and terminal Cancer for DU.

 

TheProgressive

(1,656 posts)
8. In CA, we had tuition free State Universities...
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:06 PM
Jun 2016

This was in the 1970's.

There was a fee of $101.50 per semester. I call that free. Got a damn good education in computer science. And got a great job, paid a ton in taxes, and contributed to commerce and society.

Democracy depends on an educated citizenry. Sanders want that. Republicans and I guess Clinton want to make college as inaccessible as possible. They want the citizenry ignorant and stupid.

QC

(26,371 posts)
11. Equality of opportunity and upward mobility used to be The American Way.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:11 PM
Jun 2016

Now they're "free stuff."

DJ13

(23,671 posts)
26. Republicans and I guess Clinton want ........the citizenry ignorant and stupid.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:41 AM
Jun 2016

The conservatives (that includes the GOP & Hillary and her base) probably tell themselves theres no point in providing higher education when they plan on shipping the good jobs out of the country anyway.

QC

(26,371 posts)
10. Remember when Mitt Romney told a young woman that
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:10 PM
Jun 2016

people should get "as much education as they can afford"?

We were horrified around here when he said that.

Now it's Pure Democratic Orthodoxy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/29/mitt-romney-says-students-should-get-as-much-education-as-they-can-afford_n_1638896.html

SamKnause

(13,041 posts)
14. I will never understand them.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:23 PM
Jun 2016

I will never forgive them.

I was 10 when JFK was assassinated.

I am so proud of Bernie.

He earned my respect.

He earned my admiration.

He is a man of integrity.

He is a man of sound judgment.

I will never forgive them.

They can not see what they have morphed into.

It is hard to dream in a country when the only 2 political

parties are owned by corporations.

1 step forward, 3 steps back.

Response to SamKnause (Reply #14)

lostnfound

(16,138 posts)
16. So many lies
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:25 PM
Jun 2016

"Rich people create all the jobs"

"We can't afford (health care, free college tuition, $15 an hour minimum wage)"


Lies promulgated by right-wing think tanks and right wing politicians for the last 30 years so far deep into the American consciousness that it will take a generation to undo it.

It was encouraging that young people voted for the progressive in such high numbers. At least that gives way a little hope.

I have a little fear though too. The fact that the Republicans are discussing a way to cheat the despicable Donald Trump out of his nomination at the convention makes me a little afraid about an armed backlash from the right wing, the need for democratic administration to restore peace in the aftermath, the backlash from that, and the rise of a more powerful, nationalist, armed, mentally imbalanced right-wing faction in this country.

Anyway, I was reading fortune magazine article about a man trying to start free online colleges, whereby you can take classes for free online, but earn a degree based on sitting for 12 finals that total $2400. When I read it I thought, here's a guy trying to do it as a business enterprise, yet public universities have been built into bureaucratic institutions wasting $50k or $100k per degree.

Land Shark

(6,346 posts)
17. College education was free for me in the 80s, and free for my kids now
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:27 PM
Jun 2016

This is because of test scores like the ACT and SAT. So my family is good at testing? Big deal. I know lots of very smart people who are not good test takers. Don't see why college is free today for some like my family but not for all.

Basically universal public education through high school is "free atuff." But nowadays we all know that it takes more years than just high school education to get a reasonable shot at a good job and good life. Either bring all the manufacturing jobs suitable for HS educations NOW, or extend free high school education we already have into college, because that is what it takes to do the same job free education was always designed to do.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
21. Free college, I read it here on DU
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:53 PM
Jun 2016

""Is idiotic.""

DU used to be a great place free from the RW. In fact, it used to be that RW stuff such as free college is idiotic would have earned the poster a free tombstone. Not anymore.

Obviously it's all Bernie's fault!

 

eastwestdem

(1,220 posts)
22. I think you are confusing being "against free college for all" with 'don't give a damn'...actually,
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:53 PM
Jun 2016

most non-Sanders Dems want affordable education for all. Many people are able to afford college for their kids by planning and saving, and possibly taking out small loans that are not too much of a hardship. It doesn't make sense to revamp the entire system (and overwhelm it with huge numbers of applicants), and massively raise taxes, when it is not necessary. What Hillary wants to do is to put more money into non-loan financial aid based on need.

I am paying for two college kids, neither of who receives financial aid. It is a bit of a hardship for our family, but I do not think that tax payers should pay for my kids to go to college when we can afford it. There is certainly a middle ground that is not 'all or nothing.'

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
23. Millions and millions and millions can't afford it.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:11 PM
Jun 2016

If it costs me 3 more dollars out of every hundo I'm more than fucking happy to pay it.

So that they can afford it.

 

eastwestdem

(1,220 posts)
24. It's way more than that. This is a couple months old, but tells you how much your taxes
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:20 PM
Jun 2016

would be under each candidate. For Sanders plan, our tax increase was the same as in state tuition for 2 kids. But it would last forever. Sanders NEVER could have sold this to the general electorate.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/3/25/11293258/tax-plan-calculator-2016

The point is, having a goal of affordable college is much better than over-solving the problem.

Avalon Sparks

(2,537 posts)
32. The Vox site was dbunked
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:21 AM
Jun 2016

Sorry don't have time to find the link that says as much however the calculator was wildly inaccurate.

I paid my full tuition and from 84-89 each semester by working part time in the summers for min wage. My parents helped with housing, books, food and misc.; to achieve that now according to the current tuition rates at the same state school, min wage would need to be 35.00/hr. I'm not suggesting that rate, but my overriding thought is why is it so drastically different now and just because some families like yourself can pay for their kids college, that doesn't mean it's at all acceptable.

NWCorona

(8,541 posts)
33. Huh?
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:21 AM
Jun 2016

"Many people are able to afford college for their kids by planning and saving, and possibly taking out small loans that are not too much of a hardship."

Do you realize how much of a problem student loans are? Being in debt for most of your adult life just for education is quite a hardship. Student debt just surpassed credit card debt.

 

NorthCarolina

(11,197 posts)
36. Of course, but they prefer
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:46 AM
Jun 2016

not to "enable" those they consider undesireables, loafers, freeloaders, super predators, looking for a handout. If you want your kids to go to college then HAVE MEANS, otherwise you are just a leach on the system and the uppity class has no use for the likes of you.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
44. Bernie's Free Tuition at Public Universities would be paid for...
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 02:58 PM
Jun 2016

...by a small transaction tax on Wall Street mostly affecting the Big Trading Houses.
Don't worry.
Not a dime of your precious tax money would be involved.

PatrickforO

(14,516 posts)
28. It is true that we have been propagandized to be divisive, mistrustful, and ever-watchful
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:29 AM
Jun 2016

that NOBODY gets anything for 'free.'

Unfortunately, the market cannot provide EVERY solution. It is not always better, faster and cheaper, and the profit motive simply does not fit in some places.

Economists call this concept 'public good.' In theory, and for about fifty years in the last century, we had a New Deal, where politicians actually took the concept of 'public good' seriously. This is why we have public schools. This is why, when I went to college back in the 80s, it was still cheap. Oh, sure, I worked my butt off to get through because I had to work full time to support myself while I took classes. But when I graduated, I was not buried in debt. I was able to start out fresh.

Prisons should not be for profit. I have no idea what anyone, Democrat or Republican is even thinking in setting up private prisons, and worse, local government officials agreeing in writing to keep these private prisons at 80% capacity. I mean, doesn't anyone see anything morally reprehensible about that? I sure do.

Tuition at state colleges really ought to be subsidized as a public good. How many reading this post, I wonder, own businesses or are in management positions and cannot find qualified people for high skilled positions? Yet at the same time, if you look at the Census data on Bachelor's degreed people by age band, and do some simple calculations, you see that the USA is going about 120,000 Bachelor's degreed graduates short each year; not enough kids are graduating from college to replace the aging boomers leaving the workforce. Which is funny, because the Millennial generation is actually BIGGER than the baby boom generation. So why are so few kids finishing? Two words: Prohibitive cost. Doesn't make sense does it? When businesses are crying for skilled people we cease to invest in our public colleges, and our kids are not going because it is TOO costly. How is the profit motive helping here, I ask you?

Health care should be a basic right. If you have read other posts I have written, you know that I am deeply, profoundly dissatisfied with my shitty, rationed HMO health 'care' that my employer provides. First, between my employer and I, we pay 18.9% of my gross pay in premiums. Not to mention copays, which at $40 for a regular visit add up. And let's hope my wife or I never have to be hospitalized because the copay then is financially crippling at $3,000 each. And our dental coverage maxes out at $1,500 per year. So if you need a crown and your wife needs a root canal and a crown, there goes the entire thing. The profit motive is DIRECTLY in conflict with my interest as a patient in getting the treatment I actually need. Why, I ask you, are we paying 18.9% of my gross pay, which supports both of us, when Canadians only spent 10.4% of their GDP on healthcare and the Danes only 10.8%? And, yes, I am AWARE that my personal income may not necessarily compare with a nation's GDP. So, according to the World Health Organization, the USA in the same time period shot out 17.1% of GDP for healthcare and we sure as heck get less for our money than either the Canadians or the Danes. Not to mention the British, who pay only 9.1% of GDP or the Australians, who pay only 9.4%. See, we ALREADY pay out the nose for healthcare, but we are paying for companies to earn profit on top of what they actually do for us; the less they agree to do the higher the profit. Do you see the moral conflict here?

And you know the reasons, the primary reasons that we do not have enough money to invest OUR tax money that WE pay to OUR government that is supposed to be a government OF, BY and FOR us, the people in things that actually make our lives better? Less stressful? Improve quality of life? Better living standard?

Three primary reasons:
1. Tax cuts for the rich, and loopholes that allow big corporations to offshore profits without paying any US income tax
2. 'Free' trade agreements like NAFTA, CAFTA, GATS and yes, the 'new' TPP. This, coupled with the systematic gutting of unions while Democrats stood by sucking their thumbs has gutted the American working class - and YES - the American working class comes in all races, ethnicities, genders and many are LGBTQ
3. Our 'forever war.' Did you know the USA has 'boots on the ground' in 147 places where bullets are flying? Do you ever wonder why SO MUCH of our tax money has to go to this forever war? And to the giant domestic spying apparatus that is the NSA? Because people are making money from it. Profits.

So, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer even faster now than they did in my father's time. And it is wrong.

Yes, I realize we all need to get behind Clinton to avoid the disaster of a Trump presidency. But you know I have said before, I am damned SICK of holding my nose to vote for a Democrat who sucks only marginally less than the Republican opponent. That too is wrong. So, I'm telling all of you now - I will work in my local area to find REAL New Deal type Democrats and get them in at local levels. We can then begin electing REAL Democrats to state offices and finally when New Dealers control the grass roots organizations in most states, we might be able to have some change.

In the meantime? Overturn Citizens United and the other rulings that have allowed the acceleration of corporate corruption in our national government. Raise taxes on the rich and make it so corporations pay their fair share. And don't tell me that what I'm saying is pie in the sky or that I am some kind of mythical horned beast. Because I'm not.

Remember: Those in power govern at the sufferance of the people. The purpose of government is to organize for human need, NOT for human greed.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
40. One of the best posts I've ever seen on DU. Should be its own OP.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:07 PM
Jun 2016

Thank you. I'm gonna bookmark this if you don't mind.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
29. and healthcare
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:12 AM
Jun 2016

but in truth they aren't really democrats. they're DLC, who are in fact trying to destroy the actual democrats

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
31. The "New" Democratic leadership sees everything as a commodity
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:17 AM
Jun 2016

that can be bought and sold for their benefit.

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
35. The willfull blindness to reality (cognitive dissonance) in those claiming to be Democrats...
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 11:41 AM
Jun 2016

...does indeed, baffle a thinking mind.

felix_numinous

(5,198 posts)
42. It helps not to mistake a demoralization program
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:58 PM
Jun 2016

with actual discourse. Big money went into attacking the left to interfere with our focus and to burn off our fire fighting these asshole accusations designed by a master of ratfuckery. Our challenge is to be proactive and not reactive, in order not to feed this dynamic, because this dark theater has been produced with us in mind.

These methods are to drive us away, they want us GONE, out of their way. This is neither democratic nor civilized, especially on a forum previously known for the best conversations. It is like a social virus when Americans are programmed to go against what has always been their own party and vote against their own interests. Where have we seen this before?

I would like to challenge Americans to see that interfering with elections is wrong no matter who you support, and setting this as precedent opens the door for a Trump or worse to just take over the country, and this cannot be allowed.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
46. I hate to break this to you,
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:00 PM
Jun 2016

but very large numbers of students regard their educations as purchase of a product, a degree that will get them jobs or into professional schools. Higher education has largely responded by adopting this view, so that students have become 'consumers."

In order to deal with "consumers," most colleges have developed top-heavy and extremely costly administrations. I am currently an art student at a college where I once taught. When I was first hired on there, there were two deans--one for arts and sciences, one for the excellent nursing and allied health school.

Many years later , there are three VP's and seven deans, all of them collecting compensation packages which, added up, exceed the total salaries of the entire remainder of the staff, including faculty, clerical and operations workers ( janitors, groundskeepers, etc.)

Those inflated administration costs contribute significantly to hikes in tuition and fees. Hillary has stated that part of her program for student debt relief will be to get the tuition and fees themselves down. The schools won't like it, but that's going to mean cutting back jobs and salaries for the baggage at the top, which should in turn reduce tuition and fees, which will in turn reduce student debt and the consumer/ commodity view of education.

Join this effort with President Obama's call for free community college so students can enter four-year schools with two already under their belts, and you have a program that is workable and doesn't require financial aid of any kind, for any student, until the last two years.



Orsino

(37,428 posts)
48. Arne Duncan is old news.
Sun Jun 19, 2016, 08:12 AM
Jun 2016

We will learn a lot about the next education when we see who takes over as Secretary of Education.

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