Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 06:59 PM Jun 2016

TPP hate is just Neo-Nationalism and Neo-Reactionary

Many people this election season seem to seek a return to times long gone, when things were pleasant and nice and the streets were paved with gold. Our progress as a nation to a more intersectional and global society is being met with what I consider a NeoReactionary Movement, one that is designed to take us back to a horrible time when America was on top, a place we earned by keeping others on the bottom.

Globalization is here. There is no putting that genie back in the bottle. Many who seem to oppose the TPP apparently have no clue what the TPP is. Many seem to think that not passing the TPP will somehow bring manufacturing jobs back, jobs that most Americans won't do, even for 15 bucks an hour.

Neonationalism and Neoreactionary movements have absoultely no place in progressive politics. There will be some good and some bad in every trade agreement, but most of us on the left know how to make reasoned criticism and compromise with each other. Hypernationalistic and isolationism will not do a damn thing to improve our economic situations here at home. It will lead to a collapse of our way of life. We move forward as Progressives, not back. Those that find themselves nostalgic for administrations from 60 years ago need to understand something. Progressives do not go BACK. We move forward. If one is not interested in moving forward, but instead would rather go BACK? That is conservatism, not progressivism. That is not progressive in any way. The most progressive times are not behind us, they are in front of us, an step by step we will get to where we need to be.

Please cut out the Neoreactionary nonsense.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Neoreactionary_movement

167 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
TPP hate is just Neo-Nationalism and Neo-Reactionary (Original Post) bravenak Jun 2016 OP
BRAVO! MohRokTah Jun 2016 #1
Hey! bravenak Jun 2016 #4
It's good to see a fine young wonderful true progressive posting here! MohRokTah Jun 2016 #7
We real progressives have to keep a low profile these day bravenak Jun 2016 #11
Emojis are your friends MohRokTah Jun 2016 #12
Nope GeorgiaPeanuts Jun 2016 #2
I disagree completely bravenak Jun 2016 #6
You may disagree but the TPP gives Corporations the capability to sue over laws... GeorgiaPeanuts Jun 2016 #15
I guess that is something that can be compromised on bravenak Jun 2016 #16
Yeah when it's negotiated in secret and then fast tracked thjrough Congress Armstead Jul 2016 #137
Yeah, I did not appreciate the secrecy bravenak Jul 2016 #146
I'm fairly certain that no corporation has ever won such a lawsuit under any trade agreement. Lord Magus Jun 2016 #47
At far as I am aware the TPP is the first trade agreement that would allow this GeorgiaPeanuts Jun 2016 #70
The same provisions have been in trade agreements going back to 1959. Where have you been? Hoyt Jun 2016 #112
There are places on the interwebs Maru Kitteh Jul 2016 #135
Then cite something to prove it. treestar Jul 2016 #157
I read here that CHIP would be destroyed by a trade agreement bettyellen Jun 2016 #74
Exactly. There was a poster saying GATS was going to have foreign countries running healthcare here. Hoyt Jul 2016 #152
I do believe the US has already been sued and lost - we all lost - labeling meat in the USA hollysmom Jun 2016 #98
Congress acted to avoid a trade war with Canada. Hoyt Jun 2016 #116
AFTER the US lost the law suit and had to pay millions a day to Mexico and Canada. hollysmom Jun 2016 #118
I'm talking about labeling meat, that was an issue with Canada and Congress acted to avoid Hoyt Jul 2016 #127
If it has legal standards which are followed treestar Jul 2016 #158
Prove that. What are "laws against a corporation?" Impressive sounding treestar Jul 2016 #156
I Agree. srobert Jun 2016 #86
Prove it. treestar Jul 2016 #155
There was another thread on the issue... GeorgiaPeanuts Jul 2016 #160
You have not proved with that post that it is a "carte blanche giveaway treestar Jul 2016 #161
I have to disagree on this. floriduck Jun 2016 #3
That's fine bravenak Jun 2016 #5
I thought you'd be okay with it. Just wanted to go on record. floriduck Jun 2016 #9
TPP-ISDS and the Democrats Arizona Roadrunner Jun 2016 #8
There are many parts that we are going to have to work on, fix, and possibly redo completely bravenak Jun 2016 #13
The TPP can't be revised. It's fixed. Please don't spread misinformation Arazi Jun 2016 #82
New Trade agreements can fix issues bravenak Jun 2016 #83
Nope. TPP will be submitted as currently negotiated. 5 years in the making Arazi Jun 2016 #85
And there will be more trade agreements that will fix any issues caused bravenak Jun 2016 #87
You don't know that. Just like the ACA would be fixed by now right? Lol Arazi Jun 2016 #89
I am not the one screaming 'the sky is falling!' bravenak Jun 2016 #91
Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #95
Oh good grief. bravenak Jun 2016 #97
Nothing personal. Strictly TPP ignorance Arazi Jun 2016 #100
they have never fixed this yet. it is in lots of trade deals. hollysmom Jun 2016 #114
Certain things will not be fixed bravenak Jun 2016 #119
like the court system, I am sure the corporations are happy that is written that way hollysmom Jun 2016 #120
Who knew there were more 'neo-' words. Thanks for the revelation, bravenak. n/t pampango Jun 2016 #10
There are just tooooo many these days bravenak Jun 2016 #14
I'm in an honors Politics of Developing Nations and TPP not only will screw the US, but poor nations TheBlackAdder Jun 2016 #17
I already know about your poly sci education bravenak Jun 2016 #23
The lobbyist architects of the TPP are surely looking after the developing nation's welfare. TheBlackAdder Jun 2016 #38
::: bravenak Jun 2016 #39
Lack of nuance is the person who delivers the same predictable messaging each and every day. TheBlackAdder Jun 2016 #56
Who might that be? bravenak Jun 2016 #60
Which is why China is against it scscholar Jul 2016 #134
Fast Track and TPP: A Recipe for Disaster for Women and LGBT Communities: Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #18
Not all clauses in the TPP are good. katsy Jun 2016 #19
I stated there will be good and bad in every trade deal bravenak Jun 2016 #24
In this case, speaking only for the tpp, it is a travesty. katsy Jun 2016 #34
Trump uses the best words DemFromPittsburgh Jun 2016 #28
all the efforts to diminsih or minimize the use of "neoliberalism" follow the rightwing stupidicus Jun 2016 #20
Some use it to label anything they do not like bravenak Jun 2016 #22
which is why those "some people" do the effort a disservice stupidicus Jun 2016 #26
Posted to for later. 1StrongBlackMan Jun 2016 #21
My two cents DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2016 #25
I agree with you bravenak Jun 2016 #31
The world is getting smaller. That scares some people. DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2016 #43
Yes it does. bravenak Jun 2016 #44
I'm a Neo Cancer DemFromPittsburgh Jun 2016 #27
Neo pisces here bravenak Jun 2016 #32
Keanu Reeves is just Neo DemFromPittsburgh Jun 2016 #35
... bravenak Jun 2016 #37
LOLZ! Maru Kitteh Jul 2016 #133
Neo libra here~ sheshe2 Jun 2016 #45
Hey!! My mom's a kick ass Libra too! bravenak Jun 2016 #48
Quasi Aquarius Cayenne Jul 2016 #128
K&R! DemonGoddess Jun 2016 #29
It is scary bravenak Jun 2016 #33
Oh GOODY!!! New BUZZ Words to try and counter neoliberalism. Exilednight Jun 2016 #30
Thank you, Bravenak! Cha Jun 2016 #36
Glad to see you!!! bravenak Jun 2016 #41
U2! Zap that "neo liberalism" buzzword! Cha Jun 2016 #49
It gets used on anything these days. bravenak Jun 2016 #51
And, it means nothing.. like authoritarian.. just empty buzzwords. Cha Jun 2016 #52
Yep. Like third way. Means nothing anymore at all. Just a word. Empty. bravenak Jun 2016 #53
Details... HumanityExperiment Jun 2016 #40
Utter fucking bullshit. Get back to me once you've read it. truebrit71 Jun 2016 #42
Everywhere I turn PowerToThePeople Jun 2016 #46
Rightwing nonsense should be alerted if you see it. I alert it. bravenak Jun 2016 #50
Increased trade is in itself neither good nor bad. David__77 Jun 2016 #54
That is how I see it too bravenak Jun 2016 #55
True, but simply disengaging from trade agreements, won't bring the "old jobs back". The factors still_one Jun 2016 #58
Over 150 House Democrats voted against fast tracking the TPP. 190 GOPers voted for it. think Jun 2016 #57
This is not about fast track bravenak Jun 2016 #59
The top House Dem on trade, the unions, the environmental groups, doctors without borders think Jun 2016 #61
They may be Neoreactionary though bravenak Jun 2016 #62
Please explain how the top House Democrat on trade is being neoreactionary on this think Jun 2016 #63
I said MAY bravenak Jun 2016 #64
So you've got nothing but an insulting opinion you can't back up. Got it. Thank you. think Jun 2016 #65
I do not see how it could possibly be insulting bravenak Jun 2016 #66
Of course you don't think Jun 2016 #67
Of course not. I already said that reasoned criticism is warranted. bravenak Jun 2016 #68
Always the case melman Jul 2016 #139
No, it is much more than that. nt silvershadow Jun 2016 #69
Beyond reasoned criticism, yes. That is just kinda what it is. bravenak Jun 2016 #71
I respectfully disagree. nt silvershadow Jun 2016 #72
Exactly DemonGoddess Jun 2016 #75
LGBT groups and AIDS activists oppose the TPP and are being bashed for it here. Typical. Bluenorthwest Jun 2016 #73
I don't see Bravenak bashing anyone DemonGoddess Jun 2016 #76
Just....WOW..... Tepid defense of the indefensible...... alittlelark Jun 2016 #77
That's nice bravenak Jun 2016 #84
Hiding behind platitudes... isn't that NICE? Isn't that SPECIAL. alittlelark Jun 2016 #102
Oh, harsh burn! bravenak Jun 2016 #103
Post removed Post removed Jun 2016 #121
You haven't supported any point with that treestar Jul 2016 #162
Why is Hillary opposed to TPP? bullwinkle428 Jun 2016 #78
She isn't - she loves it and has given speeches about it's merits.... alittlelark Jun 2016 #79
Brava Bravenak Hekate Jun 2016 #80
Hey!!!! bravenak Jun 2016 #81
I disagree with you and the corporate boards which are corporate stacked courts JRLeft Jun 2016 #88
That is how things have been even without the TPP so it cannot be the TPP that caused it bravenak Jun 2016 #94
One reason why our middle class has been decimated is because of JRLeft Jun 2016 #109
how is a trade agreement treestar Jul 2016 #163
The decisions from the tribunals that are stacked with corporate lawyers. JRLeft Jul 2016 #164
WTF? treestar Jul 2016 #165
Reactionaryism and nationalism are of the extreme right AgingAmerican Jun 2016 #90
Remember the horseshoe effect? This is that. bravenak Jun 2016 #92
So if you are against corporate colonialism (TPP) you are a far right extremist? AgingAmerican Jun 2016 #99
I said horse-shoe-effect bravenak Jun 2016 #105
Which means nothing AgingAmerican Jun 2016 #111
OMG..... alittlelark Jun 2016 #108
That's nice bravenak Jun 2016 #113
More platitudes.... Grow up!!! alittlelark Jul 2016 #122
Public Citizen's analysis: snot Jun 2016 #93
Reasoned criticism is fine but much of that seems CT bravenak Jun 2016 #96
Read the fucking tpp katsy Jul 2016 #131
Elizabeth Warren issued a 16-page report documenting all of the broken promises that bullwinkle428 Jun 2016 #101
Yes well this is anonymous internet poster v E Warren! Arazi Jun 2016 #106
Thanks for that link. JEB Jun 2016 #110
That is what I consider reasoned opposition bravenak Jun 2016 #115
there is nothing wrong DonCoquixote Jun 2016 #104
Exactly bravenak Jun 2016 #107
^^^ Nice ^^^ alittlelark Jun 2016 #117
Nope, its climate change denial on steroids riderinthestorm Jul 2016 #123
lol SoLeftIAmRight Jul 2016 #124
Not wanting to have the corporations rule us all is nationalism? AllyCat Jul 2016 #125
We can enforce our laws, that's why Trans-Canada is SOL with the pipeline. If they can support Hoyt Jul 2016 #129
Yeah nothing to worry about. Armstead Jul 2016 #136
Domestic laws still apply. Read the darn agreement and ISDS rules. Hoyt Jul 2016 #153
Neoreactionary really to object to Corporate governance? gordianot Jul 2016 #126
TPP takes away the judicial power of the United States and gives it to The Second Stone Jul 2016 #130
VERY well done! Maru Kitteh Jul 2016 #132
lulz Rex Jul 2016 #138
This OP makes no sense melman Jul 2016 #140
A tiny group on DU don't understand what neo-liberalism means. So they start posting OPs about it. Rex Jul 2016 #141
A tiny group like to call anything they don't like 'neoliberal' bravenak Jul 2016 #143
Well of course they do, you are entitled to your opinion but not facts or reality in this case. Rex Jul 2016 #144
Jesus Fucking Christ, how did I end up at the Weekly Standard? DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2016 #142
No wonder G_j Jul 2016 #145
Neo-Reactionary is just neologism. nt mhatrw Jul 2016 #147
I love neologisms bravenak Jul 2016 #148
You may be resigned to corporate dictatorship, but a lot of us are not. eridani Jul 2016 #149
Succinctly put I hope your comments finally put an end to this silly thread Monk06 Jul 2016 #151
I miss the unrec button. Scuba Jul 2016 #150
Very good treestar Jul 2016 #154
Agreed. bravenak Jul 2016 #166
Or it could be a "kooky" desire for the government that we pay taxes to and the only one we have a TheKentuckian Jul 2016 #159
This place has truly lost its fucking way...Supporting the TPP?! Enjoy your shit sandwich... AzDar Jul 2016 #167
 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
1. BRAVO!
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:01 PM
Jun 2016


Manufacturing jobs are gone forever, especially in factories repatriating to the US. New designs in mechanical engineering make it cheaper to bring back manufacturing from China and automate the crap out of everything with a workforce less than a 20th of what was needed even a decade ago.

There will never be the massive numbers of manufacturing jobs anywhere in the world ever again!

It's time to move on.
 

GeorgiaPeanuts

(2,353 posts)
15. You may disagree but the TPP gives Corporations the capability to sue over laws...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:11 PM
Jun 2016

This effectively nullifies a governments ability to enact laws against a corporation. Corporations do not deserve that power.

As such I think your argument that people opposing TPP are anti-globalization is not accurate. Globalization can occur without handing everything on a silver platter to corporations. Average people of all countries signatory to these trade deals should be fairly protected and a nation's right to protect the environment, or other types of restrictions they might place on corporations should not be able to be superceded via some world court.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
137. Yeah when it's negotiated in secret and then fast tracked thjrough Congress
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 01:52 AM
Jul 2016

It's all designed to be so damn open and transparent -- as transparent as a wall of bricks.

Lord Magus

(1,999 posts)
47. I'm fairly certain that no corporation has ever won such a lawsuit under any trade agreement.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:14 PM
Jun 2016

Not just in the US but in any nation on Earth. So no TPP wouldn't allow corporations to nullify laws.

Maru Kitteh

(28,303 posts)
135. There are places on the interwebs
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 01:17 AM
Jul 2016

where these kinds of stories are passed around. Where only one man can save us all.







Just like Flash Gordon.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
74. I read here that CHIP would be destroyed by a trade agreement
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:28 PM
Jun 2016

Clinton signed. Did not seem to matter that twenty years later it's a popular program that Obama extended. Crazy theories abound. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
152. Exactly. There was a poster saying GATS was going to have foreign countries running healthcare here.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 07:47 AM
Jul 2016

Didn't sound so bad of Canada or Britain did it.

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
98. I do believe the US has already been sued and lost - we all lost - labeling meat in the USA
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:36 PM
Jun 2016

didn't that piss you off a little? - under the wto. We could have paid a fine of millions a day or revoke the law which congress did faster than anything I have ever seen them do. the WTO is and organization, but they have trade agreements between nations as part of it's process.
ETA
Mostly we seem to have companies use it to push foreign countries into poverty or bend the corporate way
The obscure legal system that lets corporations sue countries
[link:https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/221/47001.html|
Corporations Use Trade Pact to Sue Countries]

When Canada moved to protect its citizens' health from a potentially harmful fuel additive, the chemical's U.S. manufacturer sued on the grounds that this would obstruct free trade - and in July succeeded in overturning Canadian law.

Another U.S. company, having used similar means to force Canadian authorities to rescind a ban on chemical waste exports, now says it will sue to be compensated for business lost while the ban was in force.

A third U.S. firm awaits the outcome of its complaint, that it had been prevented from opening a waste disposal plant because of environmental zoning laws in the Mexican state of San Luis Potosi.

Keystone Lawsuit Illustrates Enviros’ Big Problem With TPP
ISDS was an idea conjured up by European investors in the mid-20th century, when companies worried that revolutionary governments would nationalize an investment, like a coal mine. They wanted a way to hold governments accountable for their losses. But in the last two decades, as the number of trade deals containing ISDS has increased, suits have been put to a broader use, with companies alleging lost profits and suing not just when a government seizes a company’s property but also when a government changes regulations in a way that seems to target one company.

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
118. AFTER the US lost the law suit and had to pay millions a day to Mexico and Canada.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:55 PM
Jun 2016

We lost in court you can not deny it. Trade war or paying the fines? seriously - stating it as if it were voluntarily may make it sound better to you but it wasn't and it shouldn't. It was not voluntary.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
127. I'm talking about labeling meat, that was an issue with Canada and Congress acted to avoid
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:27 AM
Jul 2016

Canada placing tariffs on some of our goods as allowed by WTO. All of the lawsuits are more complex than most of those who blog on ISDS understand when you read the actual allegations and arbitration decisions. Heck one of the bloggers often quoted by the Nationalist, America First folks is a computer game developer.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
158. If it has legal standards which are followed
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 08:01 AM
Jul 2016

then it's not so simple.

Just because "corporation" does not make the legal decision always wrong. And people characterize it the way they want to, in order to cut out the nuance.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
156. Prove that. What are "laws against a corporation?" Impressive sounding
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 07:58 AM
Jul 2016

word salad only convinces the gullible.

 

srobert

(81 posts)
86. I Agree.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:24 PM
Jun 2016

And thanks for supporting Lucy Flores. I seem to remember that Barack Obama advocated re-negotiating existing trade agreements with provisions to protect labor and the environment during a previous election. When I saw the video of the Carrier plant employees recently being told that the plant in Indianapolis (my home town) was moving to Mexico, I thought "I sure hope the President gets started on that soon before it's too late".

 

GeorgiaPeanuts

(2,353 posts)
160. There was another thread on the issue...
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 10:20 AM
Jul 2016

But 80-85% of the people creating the trade agreement were Corporate Bigwigs and lobbyists. Unions had a seat at the table but were stonewalled and were barred from sharing it with the membership.

The coalition created tried in vain to keep the details of the agreement a secret, but some of it leaked at least a year or so ago and what was in that leak was not good for the average American at all.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
161. You have not proved with that post that it is a "carte blanche giveaway
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 10:45 AM
Jul 2016

to the corporations." (Whatever that means). We need corporations to trade and make money. It is not us vs. them. We work for them and buy from them. They are part of global trade. There's no reason a trade agreement would alter that. What is the "giveaway?" How are they getting our money without giving us something in return? Are our US corporations OK while foreign ones are the enemy?

 

Arizona Roadrunner

(168 posts)
8. TPP-ISDS and the Democrats
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:06 PM
Jun 2016

As a person who has served on a local government’s Board of Directors, I am VERY concerned about the TPP ISDS court process with results being the surrendering of governmental sovereignty to corporate interests, foreign and domestic.
Basically due to secretive deliberations, this “judicial” process is designed to favor corporate over governmental concerns and interests. This agreement should not allow corporations to use this judicial process, but should demand they use our existing judicial process as it relates to governmental entities. How many state and local governments can afford to be involved in such a process? Just by the threat of suits through ISDS, a climate where governmental units cave in will be created. Look at what has happened under NAFTA and the WTO as it relates to our right to know where our food comes from. Look at how a Canadian corporation is using NAFTA to sue the U.S. on the Keystone project.
This will mean that political topics such as minimum wage increases and housing and zoning laws may be pre-empted by just the threat of a suit through the ISDS process. Look at what happened with Egypt when a corporation tried to use a process analogous to the ISDS to prevent Egypt from raising their minimum wage laws. (Veolia v. Egypt)
Therefore, I recommend, in the national interest, this agreement not be approved. When people find out how this can be used to prevent them from finding out things such as where products are made, etc., there will be charges of treason and the political process will never recover the trust of the American citizens.

By not voting against the TPP outright, the Democrats have given Trump a great opportunity to tie the Democrats to the "establishment" and "corporate America". He can also use this position to raise questions about the Democrats "really caring about you and your job". This is a loser position for the Democrats for the "down ticket" candidates too. By the way, the US Chamber of Commerce is not worried about Clinton being "currently" against TPP. They figure after she gets into office, she will find a way for her to be "currently" in favor of it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/chamber-of-commerce-lobby_b_9104096.html

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
83. New Trade agreements can fix issues
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:21 PM
Jun 2016

We do not still live by the trade agreemrnts we made in 1812, and we will have more agreements after the TPP as well.

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
85. Nope. TPP will be submitted as currently negotiated. 5 years in the making
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:24 PM
Jun 2016

and with so many potential signers, changes are forbidden

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
87. And there will be more trade agreements that will fix any issues caused
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:26 PM
Jun 2016

Much of the static is from a bunch of 'henny penny's' running around spreading fear

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
89. You don't know that. Just like the ACA would be fixed by now right? Lol
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:28 PM
Jun 2016

We get the TPP as presented and it's shit.

Stop spreading FUD

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
91. I am not the one screaming 'the sky is falling!'
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:32 PM
Jun 2016

Nothing is perfect on the first draft. Except my poems!

Response to bravenak (Reply #91)

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
119. Certain things will not be fixed
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:55 PM
Jun 2016

Just like certain jobs do not exist anymore to bring back to the us. Everything is not going to always work out in our favor. Sometimes we lose, and we did plenty of winning for a good long while in comparison to many nations. We are still far ahead of most.

hollysmom

(5,946 posts)
120. like the court system, I am sure the corporations are happy that is written that way
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:59 PM
Jun 2016

they have been doing a good job suing other countries into poverty with this trade court system. they have been doing it for decades - no one ever rewrites it. Cancel a contract because it seriously pollutes your land - too bad, we may have lied to you about the waste, but you have to follow through, we have been doing that in latin america for decades.

TheBlackAdder

(28,076 posts)
17. I'm in an honors Politics of Developing Nations and TPP not only will screw the US, but poor nations
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:23 PM
Jun 2016

.


Try to show support for it all you want, it is a central tool that non-participants use to undercut trade and become mercantile nations that slowly destroy the countries that they do business with. It's sort of like a Wal*Mart moving into a neighborhood, driving local businesses out of business, and then poverty sets in and the reliance on the cheap supplier/provider becomes even more necessary. As people lose wages, power, etc. they look for the lower cost stuff, which feeds the downward spiral. Central and South American countries are getting completely effed over by China, because they don't have to oblige in the NAFTA arrangements. They undermine the US/NAFTA goals of labor, investment and environmentals, buy cheap raw good and then sell slightly cheaper finished products that put local workers out of jobs. China brings over businesses and will not staff them with locals, but staffs them labor brought over from the mainland.


When I see articles and OPs like this, I realize the posters don't know or want to know the whole picture.


.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
23. I already know about your poly sci education
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:19 PM
Jun 2016

It has been mentioned many many times and does not nean anything really. Applying book learning to world events in real time requires experience with how the world operates in reality, not merely theory.

People who deal in theory and refuse to look at reality get stuck in a box where they believe that they are right and it does not matter what the rest of us think. They are wrong and do not decide for us how we should go about things.

We are not going back to this maufacturing utopia. The world has changed since the nanufacturingjobs were here. It was not a utopia in the first place and many of those jobs were way dangerous and many functions are now AUTOMATED. Those jobs do not EXIST.

TheBlackAdder

(28,076 posts)
38. The lobbyist architects of the TPP are surely looking after the developing nation's welfare.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:53 PM
Jun 2016

.


Your post shows you have no idea of what you speak, just pushing false narratives. Highlighting ignorance itself.

This is not "book learning" but active current analysis from multiple sources including various UN groups, and even the Clinton Foundation's AIDS program is covered and how well that benefited society.


Why don't you send them free food and used clothing to help drive local merchants out of business. Or buy a pair of Toms shoes so that few dollars of gifted benevolence provides a dispensation for contributing more. The only effective means to give to countries in need is by cash, but you have to make sure the right merchants are in place to deliver the funds.


Keep shoveling it.


.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
39. :::
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:56 PM
Jun 2016

This Reminds me of the young adults at school who have not had the burdens of paying bills, taxes, voting consistantly, raising children- black and white thinking that helps absolutely no one get anywhere.
No nuance.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
18. Fast Track and TPP: A Recipe for Disaster for Women and LGBT Communities:
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:24 PM
Jun 2016

"The TPP would provide Brunei with special access to the U.S. market months after
its government adopted a new penal code that targets women and LGBT communities by making
same -sex sexual relations and “adultery” punishable by death by stoning.

Additionally, the penal code calls for flogging of women who have abortions and fines
and imprisonment for women who give birth out of wedlock.
The law also provides that marital rape is legal, so long as the wife is not under 13 years of age."
http://www.prideatwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/TPPFastTrackFactSheet.pdf

Controversial trade deal lacks LGBT-specific provisions
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2015/11/07/controversial-trade-deal-lacks-lgbt-specific-provisions/


The human rights aspects of the TPP are one of the reasons Hillary Clinton no longer supports the so called 'trade deal'. She is correct to oppose it.

katsy

(4,246 posts)
19. Not all clauses in the TPP are good.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:25 PM
Jun 2016
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/kill-the-dispute-settlement-language-in-the-trans-pacific-partnership/2015/02/25/ec7705a2-bd1e-11e4-b274-e5209a3bc9a9_story.html

Also google why doctors without borders oppose big pharmas welfare included in the TPP.

There are very valid reasons for the TPP to be reworked or killed.

The tpp allows for suing communities based on corporate perceived lost future profits because the citizens enact health, safety or environmental standards? Since when are corporations guaranteed a profit? Taxpayers would be on the hook for legal services to defend themselves from multi-national corporations? At the detriment of our schools libraries LE or fire depts? Fuck no. They are undermining our judicial system.

Fair trade is always welcome and healthy. The tpp is pure shit. Thats the only label necessary for it. Its neo-shit if anyone feels compelled to use this cool word LOL

katsy

(4,246 posts)
34. In this case, speaking only for the tpp, it is a travesty.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:46 PM
Jun 2016

It's the one issue tgat should unite all people.

Society doesn't need tpp.

Want a decent trade deal? Get one that raises all boats including labor. Make the environment & human rights the centerpiece of trading in our market. You don't create an extra-judicial system that circumvents our laws and guarantees any business interests future profits.

What if people just decide to ban a certain pesticide that's hurting their community's wildlife & environment? Which social service do taxpayers cut to get representation in that corporate kangaroo court? Cut the education budget? Fire dept? Who the fuck guarantees future profits? Should we guarantee the local pizza guy a future profit if he supplies a school cafeteria should the school decide they don't want his pizza anymore? Fuck no.

We elect leaders to represent OUR fucking concerns. Of course corporate whores want to dismantle local & federal laws.

The tpp is rape & pillage by corporate fukwits who cant plan past their next earnings report fuck all!

 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
20. all the efforts to diminsih or minimize the use of "neoliberalism" follow the rightwing
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 07:38 PM
Jun 2016

template as applied to racism, homophobia, etc charges by them.

Just because you and others think it is overused, misapplied, etc, doesn't mean that it is any particular case, much less disprove its existence as an ideology or the evil that flows from it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=TPP+and+neoliberlaism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

and I'd hazard the educated guess that if was the repubs pushing the TPP instead of BHO, all those now crowing about the exaggerators would themselves be the exaggerators.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
22. Some use it to label anything they do not like
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:14 PM
Jun 2016

Because often people are reactionary. Telling people they are neoliberal if they are not completely opposed to the tpp allows a special few to decide what progressivism is. They are wrong and do not understand the term.

 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
26. which is why those "some people" do the effort a disservice
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:30 PM
Jun 2016

of like kind to suggesting that all such charges originate with figurative chicken littles.

labeling a specific policy/position/pursuit as "neoliberal" is easy enough, but branding a person as one over a single issue - not so much.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,705 posts)
25. My two cents
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:26 PM
Jun 2016

I won't speak to the efficacy or lack of efficacy of any trade agreement but the demonization of trade by both the left and the right will not end well.

One of the main contributors to the economic depression that swept the world in the thirties and forties is that nations started to withdraw into their protectionist shells.

Building walls around our nation to keep out people and/or goods will not end well.

I pray my fellow Americans resist this noxious trend.
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
48. Hey!! My mom's a kick ass Libra too!
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:17 PM
Jun 2016

All sh wants is fairness and justice. No wonder I love you so much!

DemonGoddess

(4,640 posts)
29. K&R!
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:36 PM
Jun 2016

The thing that really needs to stop is this attitude that isolationism is a good thing. It's NOT a good thing.

 

HumanityExperiment

(1,442 posts)
40. Details...
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 08:57 PM
Jun 2016

'Globalization is here. There is no putting that genie back in the bottle. Many who seem to oppose the TPP apparently have no clue what the TPP is'

Apparently you seem to fall into that category, here are the details, care to debate the facts on what TPP is?

Manufacturing jobs will be lost. As a result of NAFTA, the U.S. lost nearly 700,000 jobs. As a result of Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China, the U.S. lost over 2.7 million jobs. As a result of the Korea Free Trade Agreement, the U.S. has lost 70,000 jobs. The TPP would make matters worse by providing special benefits to firms that offshore jobs and by reducing the risks associated with operating in low-wage countries.

The TPP creates a special dispute resolution process that allows corporations to challenge any domestic laws that could adversely impact their “expected future profits.” These challenges would be hea rd before UN and World Bank tribunals which could require taxpayer compensation to corporations.

NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China, and other free trade agreements have helped drive down the wages and benefits of American workers and have eroded collective bargaining rights.

The TPP will allow corporations to challenge any law that would adversely impact their future profits. Pending claims worth over $14 billion have been filed based on similar language in other trade agreements. Most of these claims deal with challenges to environmental laws in a number of countries.

The TPP would make it easier for countries like Vietnam to export contaminated fish and seafood into the U.S. The FDA has already prevented hundreds of seafood imports from TPP countries because of salmonella, e-coli, methyl-mercury and drug residues. But the FDA only inspects 1-2 percent of food imports and will be overwhelmed by the vast expansion of these imports if the TPP is agreed to.

Big pharmaceutical companies are working hard to ensure that the TPP extends the monopolies they have for prescription drugs by extending their patents (which currently can last 20 yea rs or more). This would expand the profits of big drug companies, keep drug prices artificially high, and leave millions of people around the world without access to life saving drugs. Doctors without Borders stated that “the TPP agreement is on track to become the most harmful trade pact ever for access to medicines in developing countries.”

Under TPP, governments would be barred from imposing “capital controls” that have been successfully used to avoid financial crises. These controls range from establishing a financial speculation tax to limiting the massive flows of speculative capital flowing into and out of countries responsible for the Asian financial crisis in the 1990s. In other words, the TPP would expand the rights and power of the same Wall Street firms that nearly destroyed the world economy just five years ago and would create the conditions for more financial instability in the future. Last year, I co-sponsored a bill with Sen. Harkin to create a Wall Street speculation tax of just 0.03 percent on trades of derivatives, credit default swaps, and large amounts of stock. If TPP were enacted, such a financial speculation tax may be in violation of this trade agreement.

The State Department, the U.S. Department of Labor, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International have all documented Vietnam’s widespread violations of basic international standards for human rights. Yet, the TPP would reward Vietnam’s bad behavior by giving it duty free access to the U.S. market.

Once TPP is agreed to, it has no sunset date and could only be altered by a consensus of all of the countries that agreed to it.

Other countries, like China, could be allowed to join in the future. For example, Canada and Mexico joined TPP negotiations in 2012 and Japan joined last year.

reference

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
50. Rightwing nonsense should be alerted if you see it. I alert it.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:18 PM
Jun 2016

I cannot stand rightwing nonsense and CTs.

David__77

(23,220 posts)
54. Increased trade is in itself neither good nor bad.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:32 PM
Jun 2016

It all depends on one's viewpoint and calculation of costs and benefits (and whose benefits and costs are included or excluded), in my opinion.

While a group may accrue net benefit, a specific individual within a group may accrue a net loss. I can understand people coming to different assessments.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
55. That is how I see it too
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:34 PM
Jun 2016

There will alway be losses and gains and we can re negotiate. I understand having reservations about portions that are not in our best interest but not the opposition to trade deals in general.

still_one

(91,965 posts)
58. True, but simply disengaging from trade agreements, won't bring the "old jobs back". The factors
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:51 PM
Jun 2016

that created those jobs are gone.

We are part of the world economy.

When President Carter enacted the grain embargo against the Soviet Union due to their invasion of Afghanistan, it had very little effect because the Soviet Union acquired grain from alternative sources. When that embargo did end, commodity prices dropped significantly, so our farmers were hurt doubly. First by the actual embargo, and then when the embargo was lifted.

Simply disengaging from trade agreements will not cause jobs to come back, and in fact more jobs will be lost by it.

It will be new technologies and innovations, along with infrastructure building across a whole array of disciplines that will allow us to grow.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
59. This is not about fast track
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:51 PM
Jun 2016

This is about protectionism and notionalistic sentiments behind the opposition and the reactionary manner in which it is opposed. Opposition to particulars are sensible and warranted. Opposition to trade agreements and the TPP in general just because of false beliefs are not sensible.

 

think

(11,641 posts)
61. The top House Dem on trade, the unions, the environmental groups, doctors without borders
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 09:55 PM
Jun 2016

aren't some nut jobs that are neonationalists.

Good grief...

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
68. Of course not. I already said that reasoned criticism is warranted.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:07 PM
Jun 2016

So beyond that I direct my thought at nationalism and reactionary politics. Protectionism. Anti capitalism. Politics of the past. Nostalgia. Things that are not progressive.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
71. Beyond reasoned criticism, yes. That is just kinda what it is.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:11 PM
Jun 2016

People are counterreacting to free trade and globalisation and believe that they can bring manufacturing back and other jobs by utilizing protectionism, tarriffs, fees, increasing the cost of exports, etc.. Won't work. Many of the jobs are done by machines now.

Most of the criticism I see is generalized into an anti corporation/anti capitalism type of fear mongering.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
73. LGBT groups and AIDS activists oppose the TPP and are being bashed for it here. Typical.
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:21 PM
Jun 2016

Brunei wants to kill LGBT. Bigots call that 'good for profits'. They bash anyone who objects. 'You must let our friends kill your people or you are a nationalist!!!!' say the $$$ Before Humanity types.

DemonGoddess

(4,640 posts)
76. I don't see Bravenak bashing anyone
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:35 PM
Jun 2016

What she said, that you're failing to see, is that trade is not necessarily a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. As to manufacturing jobs coming back, it won't happen. Industries are too automated to allow for that level of manufacturing to come back.

I've said before, and many other have said before, that it's not all bad. There are sections which need to be reworked, that's a fact. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

alittlelark

(18,886 posts)
77. Just....WOW..... Tepid defense of the indefensible......
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 10:45 PM
Jun 2016

.... I am embarrassed for you for posting this - but then that's just me, when I am horrified by something I try to make justifications for the behavior of the person that has horrified me.

Response to bravenak (Reply #103)

alittlelark

(18,886 posts)
79. She isn't - she loves it and has given speeches about it's merits....
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:05 PM
Jun 2016
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/15/politics/45-times-secretary-clinton-pushed-the-trade-bill-she-now-opposes/

She will back it 100% as president, but needs to make us all feel as though she is against it until November.

 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
88. I disagree with you and the corporate boards which are corporate stacked courts
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:27 PM
Jun 2016

will favor corporations over nations.

 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
109. One reason why our middle class has been decimated is because of
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:48 PM
Jun 2016

trade agreements, we used to have trade treaties. Trade agreements are globalization on steroids aka neoliberalism (market based solutions). These trade agreements have lowered wages in the US, exploded income inequality, and virtually eliminated upwards mobility, but it has done wonders for the economic elite.

Sixty-two people have more money than 3.6 billion people. Globalization is all about finding cheaper labor to make a bigger profit. Corporations have been leaving China looking for cheaper labor. That is one reason why Malaysia is apart of the trade agreement even though it's a pro slavery state.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
163. how is a trade agreement
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 10:48 AM
Jul 2016

made between nations in any way corporations vs. nations? Apples and oranges. US corporations vs. other corporations.

 

JRLeft

(7,010 posts)
164. The decisions from the tribunals that are stacked with corporate lawyers.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 10:51 AM
Jul 2016

There won't be any bias there.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
165. WTF?
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 11:29 AM
Jul 2016

Lawyers are "biased" for their clients, and hell there is nothing wrong with that!

But the cases would be corporations vs. corporations. Most litigation is between corporations. Little guy vs. corporate cases are usually tort cases on contingency and thus perfectly winnable by the little guy. Small local businesses would not be involved in international trade arbitration tribunals. And a lot of them, the little guy employees' interests would be in line with the corporation they are working for.

It's much more nuanced than that. The trade agreement are meant to protect our country, our corporations we work for, as much as possible as opposed to other countries, so we can trade fairly with them. If anything these agreements force other countries up to our standards.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
90. Reactionaryism and nationalism are of the extreme right
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:29 PM
Jun 2016

What a pant load. Not surprising, given the source.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
111. Which means nothing
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:49 PM
Jun 2016

You need to take a basic course in poly sci and look at the dark enlightenment, then get back to us.

alittlelark

(18,886 posts)
122. More platitudes.... Grow up!!!
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:03 AM
Jul 2016

Either respond with something of value or BEGONE!!!!

Seriously - WTF?? I feel as though I am back in middle school with your posts/responses.

snot

(10,481 posts)
93. Public Citizen's analysis:
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:33 PM
Jun 2016
{T}he TPP would:

make it easier for big corporations to ship our jobs overseas, pushing down our wages and increasing income inequality,
flood our country with unsafe imported food,
jack up the cost of medicines by giving big pharmaceutical corporations new monopoly rights to keep lower cost generic drugs off the market,
empower corporations to attack our environmental and health safeguards,
ban Buy American policies needed to create green jobs,
roll back Wall Street reforms,
sneak in SOPA-like threats to Internet freedom,
and undermine human rights.

https://www.citizen.org/TPP

katsy

(4,246 posts)
131. Read the fucking tpp
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:39 AM
Jul 2016

There's no ct there. It's all there by their own hand in b&w. No guessing necessary.

Trade agreements are good in general.

The tpp is shit. Every trade agreement that allows for a corporation to have veto ability over any nation's laws is garbage.

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2014/09/15/345540221/philip-morris-sues-uruguay-over-graphic-cigarette-packaging

There is no benefit to any decent society in that vile corporate give away. The multinationals arent satisfied with corp welfare anymore. Now they want control over the law and who lives & dies.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/big-tobacco-puts-countries-on-trial-as-concerns-over-ttip-deals-mount-9807478.html

Reasonable people can't defend this shit. It's so not about protectionism. Protectionism is not prudent and had our interests truly been protected by the whore politicians who sold out this country to these fucking corporations, no one would be a protectionist. But the fuckers keep selling out working people, our health, our laws, our safety... they put everything on the chopping block. It's pure unadulterated greed and power.

Protectionism is the natural response to continually getting fucked over. Open markets are excellent... But these fuckers want the markets just to themselves & they rig it for max profit to boot.

bullwinkle428

(20,627 posts)
101. Elizabeth Warren issued a 16-page report documenting all of the broken promises that
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:40 PM
Jun 2016

resulted from previous trade agreements, as a cautionary tale of sorts when considering passage of the TPP.

http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/BrokenPromises.pdf

Arazi

(6,829 posts)
106. Yes well this is anonymous internet poster v E Warren!
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:48 PM
Jun 2016

Clearly anonymous internet poster is better informed??!!11

DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
104. there is nothing wrong
Thu Jun 30, 2016, 11:47 PM
Jun 2016

with makin g sure I's are dotted, cross t'ed, and promises kept. Yes, it is one thing to say the genie is not goign back in the bottle, it is another to make sure the genie does not go about breaking others.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
123. Nope, its climate change denial on steroids
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:04 AM
Jul 2016

Go ahead, support this but know you're contributing to climate change catastrophes on steroids.

Blind allegiance has cast all sense aside. TPP is another nail in the planet's demise.

You and everyone else own that.

AllyCat

(16,036 posts)
125. Not wanting to have the corporations rule us all is nationalism?
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:16 AM
Jul 2016

Actually being able to enforce our safety and environmental laws is reactionary?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
129. We can enforce our laws, that's why Trans-Canada is SOL with the pipeline. If they can support
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:32 AM
Jul 2016

they were discriminated against over domestic corporations and had already invested monies that are lost because of that, they might get a few million (although unlikely). Even then, they won't get the pipeline approved.

gordianot

(15,226 posts)
126. Neoreactionary really to object to Corporate governance?
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:17 AM
Jul 2016

Be careful when identifying any Neo. Neo reactionary now there is a stretch, Neo conservative, European Neo Liberal and now someone attaches it to reactionary. Instead of calling people names it might work out to actually study the issues before providing labels. Apparently Hillary Clinton's statements of disagreement with TPP and NAFTA must be reactionary to some aspect with what amounts to corporate trade deals. Here is an idea lets return to the days of the East Indian Trade Company. Maybe we can equalize wages, lower the minimum wage, limit health care, ban Union membership, ignore State and Federal laws that gets in the way of international corporate profits.

Neo Reactionary

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
130. TPP takes away the judicial power of the United States and gives it to
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 12:32 AM
Jul 2016

corporate arbitrators. And that is only one of its problems.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
141. A tiny group on DU don't understand what neo-liberalism means. So they start posting OPs about it.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 02:12 AM
Jul 2016

The usual freak out occurs, the few are happy and the rest of us see it as nonsense. Happens every time. 2010 was an epic failure for this group, I am surprised they are rehashing old material.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
143. A tiny group like to call anything they don't like 'neoliberal'
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 02:24 AM
Jul 2016

Just like the small group who calls everything third way and sneers at 'identity politics'. So words just have absolutely no meaning anymore. I plan on neologisming soon.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
144. Well of course they do, you are entitled to your opinion but not facts or reality in this case.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 02:28 AM
Jul 2016

You can pretend some words don't mean anything, the world will keep on going. Yes the Third Way and identity politics, so many experts on the subject now. Same in 2010 and the failure was epic.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
142. Jesus Fucking Christ, how did I end up at the Weekly Standard?
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 02:23 AM
Jul 2016

Lock my post if you're so inclined, but I won't be associated with right wing horseshit I've been against for my entire adult life.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
149. You may be resigned to corporate dictatorship, but a lot of us are not.
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 05:36 AM
Jul 2016

Funny how none of these horseshit pro-TPP posts ever mention the initials ISDS, no? I guess you are fine with being sued for $15 billion over not approving of Keystone XL? Geez--who would ever oppose such a thing unless they hated Canadians? That must be why.

Funny how people have been trading for millenia without rules granting corporations veto power over the decisions of elected governments. How did they ever manage?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
154. Very good
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 07:56 AM
Jul 2016

the whole anti-TPP thing is a set up to confuse the gullible. People who know zip about economics, trade, hoping to gin up outrage over something they have no proof for, but the people who they want to reach have no proof otherwise.

"The TPP will ruin our economy and cost a lot of jobs." They've never proven that. Those asserting it have the duty to prove it, not just sit back and tell anyone questioning them it's their problem to disprove it.

TheKentuckian

(24,949 posts)
159. Or it could be a "kooky" desire for the government that we pay taxes to and the only one we have a
Fri Jul 1, 2016, 09:09 AM
Jul 2016

vote in to represent our interests?

I know it is a crazy concept to wrap one's head around but a lot of us feel strongly about this and did before we even heard of Obama so it cannot be hand waved away because he is on the bandwagon with the Chamber of Commerce and elected TeaPubLieKLANS.

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»TPP hate is just Neo-Nati...