Is there any room here for someone who will vote for Hillary, but

[SpareribSP]

wants to see change the Democratic party from the inside, follow ideals closer to Bernie's? Honestly too, I wish I could have voted for Warren, as reinforced by the great points she made in her speech.

I'm no BoB guy, but I'm not a huge Hillary fan either. However, she's the only sane choice this election, for very obvious reasons. I just don't see myself ever warming to her.

What do you have to say to someone like me?

[DemonGoddess]

1. It honestly depends upon

why you're having a problem warming up to her.

Something I've seen over time, is that many of the younger voters have heard nothing BUT the RW smears about her all their lives. So, they take it as fact. They disregard all the good works she's done over her lifetime.

[SDANation]

6. THIS!!!!

25 years of republican attacks. The lies have sunk deep in the American psyche. That's what I found disturbing about a lot of Bernie fans. Repeating right wing talking points with out questioning.

[randr]

53. Many of us have developed our own views, thank you very much

The movement of the Democratic Party to the right under the first Clinton Presidency is established fact. We elected a Blue Dog and he compromised many long held progressive ideals. The fact that this kissing up to the right did not work is more than evident. I still have my jury out on Hillary as to how much she is in agreement with her husbands policies and I must admit she has shown some interest in a move to the left, thanks to Bernie and his supporters.
This weekend she could have won me over had she, herself, called for DWS to step down along with all the people who worked with her. I was enough of a disappointment that she did not but then she went and appointed her to a position in her campaign. This alone speaks volumes to me. I will vote against Trump, I will not, as yet, be voting for HRC in my heart.

[Shankapotomus]

34. THIS ^ (eom)

[apnu]

40. I have suspected this for some time.

My theory is the young voters supporting Bernie were kids when the RW smeared the Clintons in the 90s and they are repeating what they heard as tots. I say that because their complaints about Hillary are almost exactly what the RW said of her in the 90s. Its eerie how similar they are.

Of course its possible many saying such things today are conservatives in liberal disguise.

[SDANation]

2. Welcome

First what don't you like about Hillary?

Second realize Hillary's voting record matches Bernies 93% of the time. She is by far the most qualified.

[SpareribSP]

15. I do largely agree with her on the issues.

There are some points that are hard to swallow, though. I think they've been hashed and rehashed here ad nausem, such as the Iraq war vote, trade agreements, etc. Some other things too that I personally am a bit worried about are her strong stances against encryption, which I worry about personally.

You're absolutely right on the record though, it's absolutely no contest between Hillary and Trump on record. It's not even no contest, it's a different world, a different universe. Long story short, I'm going to vote for Hillary.

Some of my issues against her are personal, although they add up enough for me to trust her judgement. She rarely apologizes, and when she does, she does so grudgingly. This is despite a number of outright mistakes. I also do believe that she was very unfair in the primary, and I strongly object to tactics she uses such as paid internet commentary. I do find it hard to trust her, she has lied in the past (sniper fire, for instance.) The list here goes on and I don't want to go into just a pure bashing rant, but there are some serious issues here where I simply find her character to be flawed.

[athena]

33. It's very interesting

that one of your "issues" with Hillary is that "she rarely apologizes."

I have never seen Bernie apologize for anything, grudgingly or not. Are you saying he never makes mistakes? Or is it just that we expect women to be servile, apologetic, and self-effacing, and men to be strong, firm, and self-confident?

The last part of your post, by the way, is against the TOS of this site. You should edit it to fix it.

[Squinch]

37. AND Hillary has often apologized, has often admitted when she was wrong.

[SpareribSP]

50. I don't appreciate the leaps of logic.

It's very hard to try and have a conversation when you start framing things as "we expect women to be servile, apologetic, and self-effacing, and men to be strong, firm, and self-confident?" I don't think Bernie is perfect either, but this question was about Hillary. If you want two examples of Bernie apologizing immediately: DNC data breach, and the unfortunate remarks of that one speaker in New York. However, I'm not really interested in a fight here over Bernie, it's not constructive.

I think the apology issue is hard to frame here, I am having trouble putting it in the right words.

I know that my post at the bottom there is borderline which is why I highly qualified it. I'm an open-minded guy, if you have something that could help me change my mind on those points I'd definitely listen. I don't want to lie about how I feel, hence why I posted this in the first place.

[betsuni]

36. So all the people endorsing her lack judgement?

Warren, Sanders, Obama, Gore, etc. The usual list goes on and on: Liar, TPP, Iraq vote, Brock paid shills, can't trust her, primaries corruption, grudging apologies, OMG she made a mistake. Long story short: "my issues with her are personal" "I personally am a bit worried about" "which I worry about personally." There's the problem right there.

[demwing]

3. I say please post and share your ideas on the PRG page

DU's Populist Reform of the Democratic Party Group: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1277

[StevieM]

4. Of course there is room for you here. Welcome to DU!!

Our job here is to elect Democrats and hold onto the White House. We welcome all Democrats who are part of that fight.

You never know who you will support or like at some point down the line. Plenty of people took awhile to warm Barack Obama, but ultimately became big supporters of his.

[SpareribSP]

24. I am reserving some judgement...

When she's president, I hope she's able to bring that combined progressive platform to fruition. Being able to pass and of the large stuff that's in the platform would be amazing - $15 minimum wage, public option, etc. If she gets in there and kicks ass, well, then, great!

[Maru Kitteh]

5. Keep an open mind,

and thank you. Those are the things I have to say.

[SpareribSP]

25. Will do.

[Snotcicles]

48. She'll have four years to either convert or confirm. I suggest she come out of the gate flying

either way.

[RonniePudding]

7. If you have kids or a family, think about what kind of world you want them to live in

And who will be the most open to those ideas right now, in this election. Listen to the speakers this week, reflect, and then vote your conscience.

In my view, the choice is clear. Trump is a clear and present danger to our democracy. Hillary is not.

That's about all I've got. Good luck.

[SpareribSP]

16. I'm a younger guy!

However, trust me, you don't have to convince me that Trump is simply awful.

[RonniePudding]

19. that's a good start

And you've got a lot of battles left to fight. If Clinton wins some of what you value will come to pass. If Trump wins none of it will, he'll do untold amounts of damage to our country and the next time around whoever you support will spend more time cleaning up his shit show than advancing the ideas that made you support that candidate in the first place.

There's some recent history that speaks to this.

[LonePirate]

8. I think we all welcome anyone who wants to improve the party instead of destroying it.

There will never be a perfect candidate, regardless of what we believe. We simply need to encourage our leaders to steer the party and the country in a direction that is best for all of us. We won't win every battle or election but we need to vote and fight our hardest to maintain our victories while working to obtain new ones.

[Karen_J]

9. Room?

This is the internet. Infinite room.

[MADem]

10. Obama was my 2nd choice. I was not a terribly happy camper but I got over it.

Now I worship him like he is a god!!!

I think he has been wonderful for the country as a leader, as a role model, and as an example to young people as to the possibility that they too can RISE.

[Agnosticsherbet]

11. As long as you will vote for her I have no problem.

[RandySF]

12. There's always has been.

But pied pipers like Susan Sarandon want everyone to think otherwise.

[The empressof all]

13. There are many of us here who support change from within

With a strong Democratic Senate and a vocal public President Clinton will be very aware that she will be held accountable. Remember Warren and Bernie will still be strong voices in the Senate and I suspect we will have Russ Feingold and a few others coming on board as well. The party has already tilted further left and is more Progressive.... We need to do everything we can to assure that she succeeds by working hard to elect Democratic Senators, Congresspeople and Governors as well as Democrats in our local elections. If we build her up from the bottom she can not waiver.

[SpareribSP]

26. This is pretty much how I feel, and I'm glad it's a shared view.

[tecelote]

30. Best response I've heard all morning.

[Nye Bevan]

14. Of course. Almost no Hillary voter will agree with her on every single issue.

For example, I hate her stance on the death penalty and disagree with her on Citizens United. But all Hillary supporters are welcome here.

[still_one]

18. Her position is to overturn Citizens United

[Nye Bevan]

21. I know. My position is the same as the ACLU's which is to support the decision (nt)

[Loki Liesmith]

23. Whoah...

...mindfuck.

Nice to see heterodoxy. Even if I think it's wrongheaded.

[still_one]

17. We are all on the same side. That is, most of us want to improve the Democratic party

While we may have different approaches, and disagreements, on fundamental issues, we are pretty much in agreement.

In fact, with the current Democratic platform a more progressive and positive change has already started

[relayerbob]

20. Yes, find the Brand New Congress groups

Progressives who want to build from the bottom up, so that the movement is sustainable

[OhioBlue]

22. Yes. There are many of us that will vote for Hillary

but want to see the party follow ideals closer to Bernie's.

And yes, she is the only sane choice this election.

[TreasonousBastard]

27. Plenty of room, but never forget that...

it all begins at home.

Get involved in your local Dem party and see about getting out there and expanding the party to get more people interested. IOt's not easy, but it is where it starts.

[Ken Burch]

28. Absolutely.

I hope we start some sort of continuation group for Democrats with Sanders values.

[JaneyVee]

29. All real change happens in congress.

[aikoaiko]

31. I'm with you.ive been here over 10 years and I feel as you do.

I have no joy in saying I'll vote for Hillary, but vote for the Democratic Party nominee I will because it is the best choice given the options.

Join me in listening to but not reacting to the hate for Bernie supporters or hate those who express their unhappiness. They can't help themselves right now.

Join me in listening to but not reacting to those who say they are so unhappy with HRC that they will vote for someone else. They too can't help themselves.

We don't have have to drink the Kool-aid to do the right thing.

[baldguy]

32. Follow the rules & be welcome.

More generally, if you like Elizabeth Warren, there's no reason to be hesitant in supporting Hillary Clinton. Don't believe the RW bullshit about Clinton.

[MyNameGoesHere]

35. I'm torn.

In a two party system we used to need the loyal opposition of the other side and the loyal opposition within our own party. Someone had to keep the other side from running amok and being stupid shits. Unfortunately we don't have the push back anymore as it has turned into outright hatred and division just for hatred and divisions sake. So do we need you? That's up to the role you play I guess, do you want to keep the party honest or do you just want to divide it? That was what pissed me off most about this Democratic primary, it wasn't about making the party honor it's values, but about who we could hate more. And when that happens I go on the defensive and push back because I don't trust your motives.

[LexVegas]

38. Cool story bro. nt

[cyberpunk]

39. I'm here with you.

As much as I don't see Democrats ever getting off their hard-on for privacy invasions, punishing whistle-blowers, or working towards "a Manhattan project against encryption".

[RobinA]

41. To Someone Like You

I say, "Welcome to the real world." I'm 58 years old and a liberal. I have never had the opportunity to vote for a candidate who was that close to me ideologically and I don't foresee it. We all live in a country of millions of people and ya go with what ya got. I'd settle for voting once for someone who was against the death penalty, but I'm not holding my breath. I would also like to see someone stand up there and talk about ending the drug war, but again...

[SpareribSP]

51. Just a bit frustrating when there are multiple speakers at the DNC who you'd much rather prefer.

You're not wrong, but I suppose it feels very much like a wasted opportunity to me here. However, I'm not entirely doom and gloom about a Hillary presidency, if she respects the platform and does tack to the left.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

42. Just happy you're voting for Hillary. I have voted a few times for people I wasn't entirely enthused

about several candidates I've voted for (Never really cared for Obama).

[Squinch]

43. Something is missing in a lot of people's calculus in this election.

Do you want Trump? Of course not.

Do you want someone who aligns with you pretty closely? Of course you do. So, you need to join with many, many different kinds of people to bring that about. If you want to those different kinds of people to join with YOU, you need to give up some things just as they do.

If you want to win the election, you will NEVER get everything you want. You are no different than anyone else in that respect. EVERYONE gives up something to get the greater good. This is politics. This is a big messy country. NO ONE will get everything we want. EVERYONE we will get a compromise candidate.

EVERY candidate is a compromise for EVERYONE who votes for her. Anyone who tells you different doesn't win elections. And before you do anything good with your elected office, you have to win it.

What do I have to say to someone like you? Well, what do YOU have to say to someone like ME about the compromises I have made for the greater good? I imagine it would be the same thing, and it's along the lines of "It's not all about you."

[Jim Lane]

44. Is there any room here? Sort of.

You can check out the ToS. While it's clear that advocating against a vote for Clinton is not allowed, there's a gray area when it comes to expressing opinions like yours (and mine): intending to vote for Clinton but remaining critical of her.

Going beyond the terms of the ToS to look at what standards are applied in practice by juries, there is definitely less room for criticism of Clinton than there is for criticism of Sanders and others who are in our coalition but who are to Clinton's left. As you've discovered in this very thread, those of us who disagree with Clinton on numerous policy grounds are dismissed as being the brainwashed victims of decades of Republican propaganda.

[GreenPartyVoter]

45. We can stand in the same corner.

[yuiyoshida]

46. THREE WORDS

THE SUPREME COURT!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512287195

[SpareribSP]

52. One of the big reasons why it's insane not to vote for Hillary, absolutely.

[NCTraveler]

47. You will fit right in with me.

I'm to the left of Clinton and the party. Overall, this place is very welcoming to my views.

[PatSeg]

49. Looking back to 2008

I can tell you that I wasn't a huge supporter of Obama and I had a lot of doubts about his abilities and experience. I also did not "see myself ever warming to him". He seemed rather cold and aloof at times, and the lofty rhetoric didn't persuade me.

Well, of course I voted for him, but my affection and admiration did not happen overnight. It came in little bits and pieces as I watched him over the years. Now I am in awe of him as a president and feel quite certain that history will remember him as a "great president". I know that I will.

My feelings about Hillary over the last 25 years have been very mixed, some of that probably due to the media I suppose, but I do feel quite certain that she has the skills, experience, and temperament to be a president we can be proud of. I honestly don't see her just as "Not Trump" and I think she will prove her critics wrong a hundred times over. I absolutely won't be holding my nose when I cast my vote.

[handmade34]

54. "vote for Hillary,

but wants to see change the Democratic party from the inside, follow ideals closer to Bernie's"?

that is the very best thing all of us can do!!!!!

I have been a Hillary supporter from the start of this campaign. Bernie is my senator and I love him and his ideas but having the advantage of wisdom from many years on this planet... I know that voting for Hillary right now is a much wiser than demanding immediate changes, insisting on a Bernie Presidency... which would have been difficult to accomplish

[Motley13]

55. List of accomplishments

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/04/13/heres-a-list-of-hillary-clintons-accomplishments-so-quit-saying-she-doesnt-have-any/

[karynnj]

56. This should be no different than 2004, 2008 and 2012

In each election, you would not be appreciated if you said you would be voting against the Democratic nominee. However, there were PLENTY of posts critiquing the Democratic campaign and being less than a big fan of the nominee. It would be a pretty useless discussion board if there was no real discussion of issues.

From those elections, my own view is that if we want to help the nominee, one thing that could help is to celebrate those things about the nominee that almost all of us agree with. For instance, all the work the just out of Yale Law School work Clinton did. The goal would be to select where we agree rather than speaking of holding our noses or a choice being the lesser of two evils. It is always easier to convince others with positive arguments.

For me, this comes from looking at the past elections. I have often said that I think Begala and Carville were absolutely useless - or worse - in 2004. They made snarky comments about Bush, but rarely found anything good about Kerry -- bizarrely speaking in terms better suited to the primaries, that he was just ABB. What does it say that 2 of the most prominent Democrats on TV could only say that the nominee was better than the Republican? Ironically, 4 years later they spoke extensively about SCHIP - that started as Kerry/Kennedy - with Kerry, who was on the Finance committee, writing some parts of the bill that remained in SCHIP - as the junior partner on this bill to his mentor Ted Kennedy.

HRC was not my first choice in 2008 or 2016, but I intend to try to keep that criticism that I have often made in mind, and look for good things that HRC did.