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Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:11 PM

Ten points of agreement, and why we should seek down-ballot support from Greens and Libertarians

I do not understand how anyone could support Trump, and at least the supporters of Stein-Baraka and Johnson-Weld share our view that Trump is a completely unacceptable candidate.

Still, I nevertheless see a lot of disparagement of Libertarian and Green Party voters here.

Based on these ten points, which I suspect we all agree upon, I would rather see us reaching out to Greens and Libertarians with regard to their down-ballot votes instead of demonizing the Greens and Libertarians:

1. Trump, Stein and Johnson are all unqualified to be president;
2. Hillary is well qualified to be president;
3. Stein and Johnson have zero chance of being elected;
4. The presidential race is a binary election, but millions will nevertheless vote for a third party;
5. There is a long history of third parties in American democracy so we may as well acknowledge that fact;
6. Control of the Senate is critical to advancing our Democratic agenda;
7. There are many down-ballot races where the Greens or the Libertarians do not even have a candidate;
8. Regardless of their presidential vote, we want down-ballot votes from Greens and Libertarians;
9. Demonizing Libertarians and Greens is not the best strategy to win their down-ballot votes; and
10.Demonizing Libertarians and Greens will not persuade them to switch their presidential preference.

Which of these ten points does anyone here disagree with?

How - exactly - does demonizing Green Party or Libertarian voters help us win the presidency or win back the control of the Senate or win any other down-ballot races?

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Reply Ten points of agreement, and why we should seek down-ballot support from Greens and Libertarians (Original post)
Attorney in Texas Aug 2016 OP
DemonGoddess Aug 2016 #1
msanthrope Aug 2016 #2
Attorney in Texas Aug 2016 #5
msanthrope Aug 2016 #8
Cali_Democrat Aug 2016 #24
Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #3
Attorney in Texas Aug 2016 #7
Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #11
emulatorloo Aug 2016 #14
Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #20
LanternWaste Aug 2016 #40
Hekate Aug 2016 #22
Armstead Aug 2016 #35
hrmjustin Aug 2016 #4
Orsino Aug 2016 #9
Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #12
Orsino Aug 2016 #13
Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #34
Orsino Aug 2016 #36
emulatorloo Aug 2016 #17
KMOD Aug 2016 #6
onecaliberal Aug 2016 #21
cloudbase Aug 2016 #10
Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #15
Princess Turandot Aug 2016 #16
Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #19
Raine1967 Aug 2016 #18
JoePhilly Aug 2016 #23
MohRokTah Aug 2016 #25
Hekate Aug 2016 #26
still_one Aug 2016 #27
SusanCalvin Aug 2016 #31
joshcryer Aug 2016 #28
Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2016 #29
Lil Missy Aug 2016 #30
mwrguy Aug 2016 #32
mr_liberal Aug 2016 #33
riderinthestorm Aug 2016 #37
Demsrule86 Aug 2016 #44
NurseJackie Aug 2016 #38
LexVegas Aug 2016 #39
NurseJackie Aug 2016 #43
LanternWaste Aug 2016 #41
Skidmore Aug 2016 #42

Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:14 PM

1. My sister is a Green

when the Green party first started, she went rabid with it. She did not vote for PBO, she voted Green. She has voted Green in every election since Nader.

Many of the people who profess to be Green that I personally know, are much like her in this. Inflexible. So, I don't see where we'd actually GET much in the way of Green votes. Some of them even vote Green just to be contrarians.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:19 PM

2. Define, "we." nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #2)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:27 PM

5. We are Democrats

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:29 PM

8. Welcome to the Party!!! nt

 

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:16 PM

24. LOL

 

I see what you did there.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:21 PM

3. Why do you keep posting this stuff?

Why do you want to defend third party spoilers...no we won't support Greens or Libertarians period for any reason. This site supports the Democratic nominee, and we should not support third party spoilers or tolerate them for 'down ballot reasons'. The presidential vote is the most important vote as the courts hinge on it...I think we have a good chance of taking the Senate and maybe some chance with the house but that depends on getting 100% all hands on deck and defeating Trump massively...we don't need 95% voters ...you know the ones who are supporting down ballot but not the presidential pick...the best way to get the Senate is to beat Trump soundly and tolerating third party spoilers won't help in that effort... in fact it might hurt our effort.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:28 PM

7. Because when I see us heading in a direction that seems less prone to success, I express that view.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:41 PM

11. I am sure that voting your 'conscience' is attractive...and those who have

the 'privilege' to do so, want to believe the entire shit storm it causes as in when the Greens elected Bush is not their fault and look at me I am helping down ballot... but the truth is, they own every piece of crap. You won't elect down-ballot candidates without electing Sec.Clinton. And I have visited the other site...they have no interest in electing Democrats mostly and would merely cause trouble here...and since we support the nominee, they don't belong here. I have no intention of being nice to these folks and will call them alls sorts of bad names. They deserve it for trying to elect Trump...no down ballot race could make up for that. I will ridicule them and marginalize them every chance I get so they don't gain an ounce of credibility that they can use to help elect Trump.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:47 PM

14. STRAWMAN: Green Party members have long been welcome at DU, they are our allies.

Many will vote HRC over Stein. If they are voting for Stein they will be criticized here.

This is not a difficult concept for someone of your intelligence to grasp.

What I see this morning is you putting out a lot of Strawman arguments and pretending that a right-wing predatory capitalist is not status-quo.

You know I enjoy your posts and thoughts generally, but think you've gone a little off the rails today.

You seem to be stuck in Primary mode: this just seems like an oblique 'subtle' way to for you to continue to lie about and smear HRC.

Elevate Stein, Pretend Trump is a 'change candidate' when he is the most status quo of them all: right wing predatory capitalist.

Most DU'ers are able to see through sophistry.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #7)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:05 PM

20. One last point.

You do realize the Trump would have complete control over the use of nuclear weapons right? My conscience would not allow me to vote for third party spoilers and take a chance on something like that. Down ballot is important but there are more important concerns for responsible voters...and yes I am saying the Greens are irresponsible, privileged voters who only care for themselves and are willing to hurt vulnerable Americans to cast their "protest" vote

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Reply #7)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 02:29 PM

40. More accurately, "when I perceive, accurately or not, us heading down a direction..."

More accurately, "when I perceive, accurately or not, us heading down a direction..." as more than a few people disagree with your unsupported premise.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:14 PM

22. +1

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 07:04 PM

35. You kind of have to tolerate them...It's still legal to be a third party

 

And it's not like the Greens are evil. They're just more extreme and dogmatic then liberals/progressives who vote Dem for whatever reasons.

But it's not like saying like "Gee let's be more like the Tea Party and push to build a Wall between Mexico to attract Tea Partiers."

I happen to think that --despite the fact that he is a raging asshole -- Ralph Nader is correct on 80 percent of the issues and has done a lot of really good things. And a large number of Democrats would also agree with him, if his views were presented without being associated with him.

I honestly haven't paid enough attention to Stein to say whether I agree with most of what she says or or not. But she's just a gnat in the larger scheme of things.

Democrats ought to be trying to build bridges with at least the left half of the spectrum, rather than engage in some of the attacks that sound pretty conservative.

The baby gets thrown out with the bathwater too often here.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:27 PM

4. These people are not our allies. We are not here to be nice to them.

 

They are our competition and we will call them what they are, kooky.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:37 PM

9. Some of them are, and more of them could be.

If they've absorbed too much of the anti-Clinton mythology, well, so have many of us.

But it's okay. not every one of us has to agree on exactly who is allowed into our allegedly big tent. If we ally with them, it's most likely to be on issues where there is real common ground.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:42 PM

12. I will not ally with folks that foisted Bush on us.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:46 PM

13. The Greens' share of the blame is insignificant...

...next to gerrymandering, billionaires' money, stay-at-home Dems' and tame corporate media's.

We don't have to be afraid of the Green name. We can choose when and where we ally, particularly at the local level.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #13)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 06:37 PM

34. Baloney

The rotten Green spent all year trashing Gore calling him the same as Bush...and of course Nader was involved...they cost us the election and the greens can f off...they are dead to me.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #34)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 01:48 PM

36. No, they didn't.

The Supreme Court stole the election Gore had already won.

But the only got their corrupt hands on it because of a lot of other factors listed above. The Green myth is silly.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #4)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:50 PM

17. Greens who help us elect Dems are indeed our allies

And they are out there, some posting on DU.

Stein voters are definitely not our allies. So yes, they will be criticized here rightly.

OP seems to want to ellide that distinction. Please don't buy into his bullshit framing.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:28 PM

6. Any person who is too ignorant to understand how

 

dangerous a potential tRump presidency would be, is simply not rational enough for me to waste my time on them.

And if they are willing to throw away their vote on a candidate that has no chance of winning, they are aiding and abetting tRump, and they are just as much of an enemy as tRump is.

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Response to KMOD (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:09 PM

21. ^^^ That^^^ x infinity

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:39 PM

10. I agree about Stein and Trump being unqualified.

What makes Johnson unqualified?

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Response to cloudbase (Reply #10)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:47 PM

15. He is a libertarian who would end civil rights...

someone here said Libertarians want to sit in their gas station and smoke a joint while not letting POC use the bathroom. Kind of funny and kind of true. Their ideology disqualifies them. How can someone who hates the government and essentially wants no government become president and be in charge of the government? Thus, Johnson is unqualified to be president.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:49 PM

16. So now you will not vote in the presidential election?

You pretty much told Skinner that it was unlikely that you would vote for Clinton-Kaine and said you might vote for Stein, despite your (now stated) belief that she is not qualified:


...While it is possible (but unlikely) I will vote Clinton-Kaine.....I may (or may not) vote for the Green Party at the top of the ticket and straight Democratic on the rest of the ballot, and I think attacking the Green Party is counterproductive and harmful to the Democratic Party's agenda...

and:
...My question is whether Democratic Underground is an appropriate forum for someone who:

* will vote based on conscience at the top of the ticket (an idea Clinton has endorsed)
* may (but probably will not) vote for Clinton-Kaine

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125911449


He replied that this is a site for people who support Democratic nominees. Maybe you need to take this up with him again?

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Response to Princess Turandot (Reply #16)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:59 PM

19. No support for the Greens at all...we support the Democratic nominee. nt

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 01:50 PM

18. I am a Democrat. When you say *we*, who are you talking to? I have another question:

Why should I support a party that only shows up every 4 years to try to take votes from candidates I support?



The Greens don't need coddling. Jill Stein is not a friend to Democrats.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:14 PM

23. Start GreenPartyUnderground already.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:17 PM

25. FUCK the Greens and FUCK the Libertarians.

 

They are as much my political enemies as ANY Republican.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:24 PM

26. I see you are consistently concerned

I am concerned about that.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:30 PM

27. I do not demonize greens, but I sure will Jill Stein. She is a selfish self-centered jerk who is

doing her damndest to undercut Hillary

I have nothing but disgust for her, and think she is a detestable person

I also feel the same way toward those who tried to disrupt the Democratic Convention, and won't waste my time engaging with these self-centered asses

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Response to still_one (Reply #27)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 03:03 PM

31. Bingo. nt

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:38 PM

28. 'down-ballot Greens and Libertarians"

You mean the hundred or so that hold elected positions?

Both parties are special interest scams to profit from the purist vote l.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:42 PM

29. 1st point alienates Greens & Libertarians: "unqualified". Off the rails start. Stopped reading. . nt

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 02:49 PM

30. They have a choice, it doesn't require groveling to get their support. Give it a rest. n/t

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 03:20 PM

32. Libertarians are not our allies

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Sun Aug 7, 2016, 03:21 PM

33. Johnson is clearly qualified, he's two term governor. nm

 

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 02:12 PM

37. 100 recs for DUer GreenPartyVoter

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018882683

SMH at the viciousness here. Greens have always been a part of DU just as they're a part of my local environmental group, my neighborhood, my family.

They're won over with inclusion and respect imo. Plenty of Greens vote for Democrats and are certainly more open to discussing the issues and changing their minds than a Republican imo.

Great OP but the Greens can't be discussed rationally here. It's beginning to look a lot like a surrogate attack on progressives.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #37)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 04:23 PM

44. Refighting the primary...

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 02:26 PM

38. Because mature and thoughtful voters make their voting decisions based on how they were treated...

... on an anonymous internet political discussion forum.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 02:27 PM

39. So transparent.

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Response to LexVegas (Reply #39)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 02:41 PM

43. I know, right?


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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 02:35 PM

41. I've never met anyone who justified their vote on "I read mean things about candidate X...

I've never met anyone who justified their vote on "I read mean things about candidate X on an internet message board. Hence, I'll certainly cast my vote for candidate X..." Maybe my circle of acquaintances is simply too small, and I should broaden it to include all five or six of them.

"How - exactly - does demonizing Green Party or Libertarian voters help us win..." No more and no less than "How exactly does deifying Green Party or Libertarian voters help us win...?" It doesn't help. Nor does demonizing hurt. Statistically insignificant votes are simply that-- statistically insignificant and do not affect outcomes.

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Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)

Mon Aug 8, 2016, 02:40 PM

42. Right now I'm busy trying to get

Dems elected at all levels in my state and including Hillary & Kaine at the head of the ticket. I am not a Libertarian nor am I a Green. Period. They can do their own recruiting without my assistance if they have candidates for offices. Otherwise, my opinion is that if they cannot vote for a Dem in the absence of a candidate of their own party, I have as much use for them as Nader post 2000.

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