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Sat Dec 3, 2016, 04:48 PM

When I was a "millennial," I never expected candidates to "inspire" me

I never complained that Jimmy Carter wasn't exciting or that Walter Mondale didn't touch my heart or that Michael Dukakis didn't make me feel all warm inside. I just voted for them because I believed they would be much better for the country than the Republican candidate.

This "I'm not going to vote unless I feel completely connected to the Democratic candidate, who needs to talk directly to me and my needs if they want my support" is all new to me ...

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Reply When I was a "millennial," I never expected candidates to "inspire" me (Original post)
EffieBlack Dec 2016 OP
CBHagman Dec 2016 #1
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #2
J_William_Ryan Dec 2016 #31
greatauntoftriplets Dec 2016 #36
DavidDvorkin Dec 2016 #3
madaboutharry Dec 2016 #4
aikoaiko Dec 2016 #5
JI7 Dec 2016 #8
aikoaiko Dec 2016 #10
JI7 Dec 2016 #13
aikoaiko Dec 2016 #16
JI7 Dec 2016 #19
marybourg Dec 2016 #101
Chiquitita Dec 2016 #6
JI7 Dec 2016 #7
RealityChik Dec 2016 #9
JonLP24 Dec 2016 #11
murielm99 Dec 2016 #17
JonLP24 Dec 2016 #18
murielm99 Dec 2016 #21
JonLP24 Dec 2016 #22
murielm99 Dec 2016 #23
JonLP24 Dec 2016 #24
JCanete Dec 2016 #95
pnwmom Dec 2016 #25
JonLP24 Dec 2016 #30
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #49
progressoid Dec 2016 #77
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #79
progressoid Dec 2016 #82
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #100
Ken Burch Dec 2016 #12
killbotfactory Dec 2016 #14
QC Dec 2016 #15
Docreed2003 Dec 2016 #78
jake335544 Dec 2016 #20
LisaM Dec 2016 #26
Exilednight Dec 2016 #45
jake335544 Dec 2016 #50
YvonneCa Dec 2016 #90
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #54
jake335544 Dec 2016 #61
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #94
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #93
LisaL Dec 2016 #27
Exilednight Dec 2016 #46
Bill USA Dec 2016 #28
nycbos Dec 2016 #29
tammywammy Dec 2016 #32
DesertFlower Dec 2016 #33
ananda Dec 2016 #34
Lotusflower70 Dec 2016 #35
betsuni Dec 2016 #37
GoCubsGo Dec 2016 #38
treestar Dec 2016 #44
jman0war Dec 2016 #39
Amimnoch Dec 2016 #40
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #41
portlander23 Dec 2016 #42
treestar Dec 2016 #43
JHan Dec 2016 #47
Exilednight Dec 2016 #48
vi5 Dec 2016 #53
jake335544 Dec 2016 #64
DanTex Dec 2016 #67
jake335544 Dec 2016 #68
DanTex Dec 2016 #70
vi5 Dec 2016 #73
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #57
Exilednight Dec 2016 #60
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #63
Exilednight Dec 2016 #66
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #69
Exilednight Dec 2016 #71
Cattledog Dec 2016 #51
Exilednight Dec 2016 #56
vi5 Dec 2016 #52
JI7 Dec 2016 #58
vi5 Dec 2016 #72
JI7 Dec 2016 #74
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #80
vi5 Dec 2016 #83
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #86
vi5 Dec 2016 #87
azmom Dec 2016 #55
stone space Dec 2016 #59
geek tragedy Dec 2016 #62
mcar Dec 2016 #65
RobinA Dec 2016 #75
progressoid Dec 2016 #76
marlakay Dec 2016 #81
MineralMan Dec 2016 #84
TwilightZone Dec 2016 #85
Seshat Dec 2016 #88
pnwmom Dec 2016 #98
Seshat Dec 2016 #102
pnwmom Dec 2016 #104
Seshat Dec 2016 #106
bravenak Dec 2016 #89
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #92
bravenak Dec 2016 #107
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #91
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #96
Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #97
TransitJohn Dec 2016 #99
pansypoo53219 Dec 2016 #103
NobodyHere Dec 2016 #105
Gothmog Dec 2016 #108
LeftInTX Dec 2016 #109
Name removed Dec 2016 #110
AgadorSparticus Dec 2016 #111
oasis Dec 2016 #112
ProgressIsLeft Dec 2016 #113
LexVegas Dec 2016 #114
LanternWaste Dec 2016 #115

Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 04:52 PM

1. Same here, and I wanted to vote more than I wanted a driver's license.

I actually registered to vote before I got a driver's license.

And now that I'm older and I hear my young neighbor telling me that people his age don't vote in the midterms because they're not excited about the candidates, I'm struck by how passive that sounds -- i.e., ceding power because one doesn't feel like using it.

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Response to CBHagman (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 04:58 PM

2. So, it's not just me?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:48 PM

31. Of course not.

[QUOTE]I just voted for them because I believed they would be much better for the country than the Republican candidate. [/QUOTE]

Unfortunately most Americans are hostile to this sort of pragmatism.

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Response to CBHagman (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:00 PM

36. I made a special trip to downtown Chicago to register.

My first election was an off-year and I damn well voted.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:00 PM

3. Yes, exactly.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:16 PM

4. Not all young people think like that, but

a lot do. There is an odd sense of entitlement that is disturbing. I can't explain it, it's a kind of selfhness.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:22 PM

5. Obviously, you were never a millennial.


The idea of "the millennials" is not that they are just the new "young people", but that they, as a demographic, a group, view the world differently from the cohort before them and the cohort to come after them.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:26 PM

8. but when it comes to voTing it's not much different. young people always have low turnout

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Response to JI7 (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:36 PM

10. Sure. That's true, but the solution motivating millennials to vote may lie in their perspective


Especially as they move out of the young adult demographic which they are beginning to do.


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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:39 PM

13. they will vote more with age as other generations have done

When you start having more responsibility.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:43 PM

16. Sure, but who will they vote for with the "earn my vote" mindset


Ignoring demographic differences is perilous for a political party.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #16)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:52 PM

19. demographics include race gender and many things

The republicans tend to be straight white christian.

The rest tend to democratic.

But this is true even among young voters because most young whites voted for Romney over Obama.

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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 09:18 PM

101. I can assure you that my cohort (I'm the same age

as Bob Dylan) saw the world differently from the cohort before us and the cohort to come after us.

And you know what, so did my parents' cohort (born in America, to immigrant parents)

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:24 PM

6. I have twins who

Just turned 20. They grew up with the threat of global warming. They grew up during the Iraq war and WMD lies, the economic crisis, random gun violence in schools, and, with Pres Obama--a very inspirational leader. I remember their little friends being cynical in second grade when they were told what trouble the planet was in; "human beings are so horrible," they said. And they were supposed to be the generation to fix it.

I have a hard time blaming millennials. As a college teacher the ones I see are hardworking, ethical, and afraid for their futures. It's not like we handed them an easy world to contend with.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:25 PM

7. i always ask about how they felt for candidates of other offices

And if course usually they are uninformed and then u ask why they look to political office as entertainment amd they just come off as bigger fools.

Although it's not just young people who do this.

Obama was inspiring but there were those that ridiculed it. Remember the who messiah thing ?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:34 PM

9. In defense of millennials...

God knows, I have given birth to two of them, so I know how they are! But our task at hand as their elders is to listen and respect the logic of their mindset, not only because they will be the ones picking out my nursing home some day when I become too helpless to button my own shirt, but because, as Democrats, we're not in any position as a political party to be alienating them, or any others that were driven away by the jaded behavior of the Democratic establishment! We need all the help we can get, otherwise our party is DEAD. We will NEVER recover if we continue to exclude others that need to forage a different path to the same objectives we all have.

I remember, in my mid-20's voting for environmental activist candidate, Barry Commoner instead of Jimmy Carter because no other candidates paid any attention to the issues important to us at that time. We were not mature enough yet to consider "the bigger picture". At the time, it was the only political statement we could make, as we otherwise felt powerless that our votes counted for anything in the larger scheme of things. Luckily for us, Carter won anyway.

Shouldn't we be asking them what we could do to make them feel welcome and take suggestions about the most effective ways they could participate and love doing it?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:38 PM

11. If Millenials had their way Hillary Clinton would be President

You need to scapegoat older whiter people.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:45 PM

17. Oh no you don't!

Everyone working at my Hillary for America site was an older white person. When we canvassed and phone banked, our support came from older white people, union members and black people.

I am ashamed that my children, raised to have a sense of history, raised in a family with two generations of activists and three generations of military veterans, voted for pie-in-the-sky mush in the primary. At least they came around to Hillary in the general.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:51 PM

18. There was nothing pie in the sky about Bernie

He has backed traditional democratic policies his whole career.

On edit: look at the forum, so many threads scapegoating millennials.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:56 PM

21. Where did I mention Bernie?

LOL.

Sensitive, much?

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #21)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:01 PM

22. What did you mean by?

voted for pie-in-the-sky mush in the primary. At least they came around to Hillary in the general.

Sure I'm sensitive, I'm tired of all the scapegoating.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:08 PM

23. I'm sensitive, too.

I am sensitive that a brilliant woman whom I admire and support has been smeared and lied about for thirty years. I am sensitive that an election was stolen from her, the most important election of my lifetime.

Go away.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:10 PM

24. Why are you telling me to go away?

I probably wouldn't have replied if you never said that. BTW you replied to me and you're telling me to go away.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #17)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 08:43 PM

95. pie in the sky mush...ashamed. Gross.

 

Mush is what Clinton ran on in the primaries. Post primary, she actually started taking a couple policy stands. That was a pleasant departure from what I'm used to.

It would be nice if someone could answer me this: What legislation is not pie in the sky, given our congress and Senate? What does it take for blue dog dems to vote for legislation, let alone republicans? What could Clinton have possibly gotten passed? She told us Bernie wanted fantasy and that she could actually work across the aisle to make things happen, but assuming that were true, what would legislation that does that look like? Assuming it weren't true, I don't know why people would rather the person with the bully pulpit not be rallying the American people behind things that would actually energize them.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:38 PM

25. Unfortunately, as a group their turnout was low. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:43 PM

30. As a group most people older than them voted for Trump

I can't find reliable numbers as far as turnout goes.

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Response to JonLP24 (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:27 PM

49. Who's scapegoating?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #77)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:28 AM

79. Whoosh!

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #79)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:42 AM

82. Right. Because your OP has nothing to do with blaming millennials.

You're not fooling anyone.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #82)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 09:01 PM

100. these axes aren't going to grind themselves, jack!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:38 PM

12. And when you were that age, most people your age DIDN'T vote.

 

If this cycle taught us anything, it's that young people will never, as a group, respond well to people telling them "you HAVE to vote", or that "you have to vote for this candidate because the other one is a monster".

You and I both want more young people to vote...so why would you defend an approach to getting them to vote that simply doesn't work?

What do you think we'd have to lose by trying something else?

(I said this as a person who spent a lot of the fall begging for those votes, and who thinks they should have voted for us anyway).

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:42 PM

14. Inspiration is the difference between you showing up at the polls, or..

you showing up at the polls with five friends you convinced to vote.

Don't discount it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:43 PM

15. I stayed off people's grass, too, back when I was that age,

but now I see these damn kids walking across my lawn every time I look out the window.

I stay so busy going out onto the porch and yelling at them that I hardly have the energy to enjoy Lawrence Walk anymore.

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Response to QC (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:23 AM

78. Lmao...

Oh how I hated when my grandparents would turn in Lawrence Welk!! EVERY....SATURDAY...NIGHT!!!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 05:52 PM

20. Millenials inherited the worst recession since

 

Last edited Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:39 PM - Edit history (2)

the Great Depression as well as a climate crisis, as well as record debt, they don't see politics on either aisle as even sustainable for their life or finances.

Easy thing for EffieBlack to say when today's younger generation may be the first to earn less then their parents in quite a while. The younger generation has been hurt, I would argue, to an even greater extent than the baby boomers. They also respond quite well to calls for war time like mobilizations against the climate crisis (that the Dems don't offer), because they are going to have to live through that crisis, and the boomers aren't. To some of these millenials, myself included, it's a matter of life or death..and.. savings or debt slavery, not lesser evil.

With the economy, I don't think most of the younger gen knows enough about economics to understand the extent to which we need much more deficit spending and government spending than we currently have, but if they did they'd be all for that, and the Dem Party politicians with anything to say on the budget recently campaigned on running a surplus!

And don't even get me started on our preparedness for further financial crises with hedge funds being the primary big-money donors to Clinton and Trump. Clinton's Wall-Street speeches calling for financial deregulation... Our next Dem nominee shouldn't just be a puppet for big money interests.

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Response to jake335544 (Reply #20)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:40 PM

26. People in the 60s grew up with the threat of nuclear war

hanging over their heads (in the 50s, too). People in the 70s grew up with an absolutely awful economy, stagflation, and gas shortages. Crime in the 70s and 80s was worse thsn it is now.

Every generation has its challenges. I don't think the millennials' are any worse, though now they will have to deal with a Trump presidency and for that they will need to take a little responsibility. They also have way more access to information than previous generations did, so they should use it.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:43 PM

45. Younger generations still grow up with threat of nuclear war. Growing up in the cold war era,

I never really worried about there being an actual nuclear war, or even if there was I wasn't worry about the United States suffering from nuclear fallout. Today's generations are growing up with the possibility that grows every day that some state back terrorist is going to sneak in to the US and set off a low grade nuclear bomb.

Crime may have had higher statistics in the 70s and 80s, but we didn't have 24 hour news access as we do today. When I was growing up, you only heard of someone dying if they were white and affluent. The 70s stagflation was nothing when compared to the recession we just came out of.

Sure, every generation has their challenges, but this current generation received them all at once, and these challenges are far deeper than any generation before it. It's the first generation to grow up with the US mainland being attacked. It's the first generation to grow up with two wars going on simultaneously, and a third started in their coming of age.

It was also once believed that every government official, whether you agreed with them or not, actually cared about their country, but now that not so clear cut. Again, with the advent of 24 hours cycle, every political scandal is televised. Prior to the 1990s, political scandals were only covered nationally if they involved the president, or proved harmful to the nation as a whole. Now if a government official DweebTown, Texas is discovered sleeping with a dog it's a breaking story on CNN.

Today is nothing like what past generations grew up with.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:27 PM

50. In case you weren't paying attention, Obama-Clinton policies have been drumming up a new cold war

 

that were spiraling and becoming more aggressive. That people rejected that is a positive sign. Our proxy wars with Russia over Ukraine and then Syria were spiraling into nuclear preparedness btw Russia-USA .

From September:
"US Secretary of Defense Ashton Carter told American troops at Minot Air Force Base in South Dakota that the Pentagon has been seeking $108 billion over the next five years to upgrade the nation’s nuclear triad of Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, ballistic submarines, and strategic bombers. He also announced that NATO is reviewing its “nuclear playbook” to deter potential “terrible attacks” by Russia."
https://www.rt.com/news/361141-us-nuclear-concern-russia/

"Russia is moving nuclear-capable missiles into the Kaliningrad enclave as US Secretary of State John Kerry calls for an investigation of Russian war crimes in Syria.
Given this grave escalation of friction, Hillary Clinton’s comments during a presidential debate on October 9 are chilling. Clinton pointed the finger repeatedly at Russia during her debate, rattling the saber not only on Syria (where she blamed Russia for Assad’s atrocities) but also on issues such as the recent string of political hacking events. Her hostility was clearest when she said: “I’ve stood up to Russia. I’ve taken on Putin and others, and I would do that as president.”
http://www.leftvoice.org/Hillary-Clinton-s-New-Cold-War

"The Obama administration is contemplating an unprecedented cyber covert action against Russia in retaliation for alleged Russian interference in the American presidential election, U.S. intelligence officials told NBC News."
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cia-prepping-possible-cyber-strike-against-russia-n666636

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Response to jake335544 (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 06:23 PM

90. I empathize with millenials' struggles...

...in a challenging world. But the focus on inter generational blame and fear for the future really bothers me.
Constant blaming each other gets us no where. Hillary was right that we are stronger together.
As to living in fear instead of focusing on solutions, here is a transcript of Al Gore in 2006. I highly recommend reading the entire speech. The relevant part about fear starts on page 12.
http://www.acslaw.org/pdf/Gore-1-17-06.pdf

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Response to LisaM (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:37 PM

54. Every generation believes they have harder lives and greater challenges than any previous generation

President Obama addressed this in his brilliant speech at Howard University earlier this year. While the speech was directed to African-American students, it is instructive to a much larger group:

"But I wanted to start, Class of 2016, by opening your eyes to the moment that you are in. If you had to choose one moment in history in which you could be born, and you didn’t know ahead of time who you were going to be -- what nationality, what gender, what race, whether you’d be rich or poor, gay or straight, what faith you'd be born into -- you wouldn’t choose 100 years ago. You wouldn’t choose the fifties, or the sixties, or the seventies. You’d choose right now.
...
"Even if we dismantled every barrier to voting, that alone would not change the fact that America has some of the lowest voting rates in the free world. In 2014, only 36 percent of Americans turned out to vote in the midterms -- the second lowest participation rate on record. Youth turnout -- that would be you -- was less than 20 percent. Less than 20 percent. Four out of five did not vote. In 2012, nearly two in three African Americans turned out. And then, in 2014, only two in five turned out. You don’t think that made a difference in terms of the Congress I've got to deal with? And then people are wondering, well, how come Obama hasn’t gotten this done? How come he didn’t get that done? You don’t think that made a difference? What would have happened if you had turned out at 50, 60, 70 percent, all across this country? People try to make this political thing really complicated. Like, what kind of reforms do we need? And how do we need to do that? You know what, just vote. It's math. If you have more votes than the other guy, you get to do what you want. (Laughter.) It's not that complicated."

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #54)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:00 PM

61. Our party does quite a bit for smart kids that's for sure...

 

which may be why Harvard was a good stopping block for Obama to talk about voting turnouts...but not so much for everyone else.

Why in the world are you quoting speech writers of a guy who put guys like Gensler in his cabinet during a recession in his first term, who put Medicare and SS on the chopping block in the name of "shared sacrifices" in one of the wealthiest countries in the world (only to have Harry Reid cut that nonsense out thank God) criticizing people for not voting? Has this election not given you second thoughts yet as to how horrible we reacted to the '08 crisis, and therefore why we performed so poorly at the polls after a sort-of supermajority for a year?

But go ahead and try to twist these numbers..
16% of American adults were in the lowest income tier when boomers were entering their 20s in 1971
*Now* the younger generation is growing up with 20% of American adults in the lowest income tier

Between 1948-1973, productivity and compensation soared almost completely in tandem.
Since then compensation has been relatively flat and everyone is working much, much harder. Productivity is soaring.

Gen Xers lost about 50% average of their wealth after the Great Recession, boomers lost about 25%. That's a doubling btw generations.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-09-08/generation-x-reality-bites

The Great Recession has hurt boomers, but millenials are trying to become an adult in it, and Xers bared the brunt of it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #54)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 08:01 PM

94. And every generation grows up to be cranky, pissy complainers about the younger folks.

What's nice about my generation, at least for everyone else, is that we're small, so when we get to the phase in our lives where we're in a perpetual bad mood because our prostate kept us up all night, Generation Z will be able to easily ignore us since we're a demographic divot.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #26)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 07:59 PM

93. Actually, the closest we came to nuclear war after the cuban missile crisis was during the 80s

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:42 PM

27. One would think the idea of having a future would be exciting enough. I guess not.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:45 PM

46. The idea of having a few million in my bank account is exciting, but I don't run out and buy lottery

tickets when I feel the odds of winning are stacked against me.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:43 PM

28. This "inspired" thing is a talking point of the M$M talking idiots. What really produces celebrity

or public fawning nowadays is someone who doesn't seem any more disciplined, committed or competent than the observer. This is the age of Kim Kardashian. You are an old Fuddy-duddy. What you need to do is stop THINKING so much.




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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:43 PM

29. I am a millennial and you are 100% right.

Many think they are making a statement by not voting.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:49 PM

32. As a voter, I never expected a candidate to agree with me 100% either

I don't even think the wooing is a millennial thing because people of different ages were waiting for Hillary to "woo" them. I didn't agree with Hillary 100% or Obama but I still voted for them because when it some disagreements they were/are 100% better than republicans.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:50 PM

33. i agree. i don't understand all this

whining.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:52 PM

34. Exactly.

That's why I hate this first-name shit.

I don't expect candidates to be my warm-fuzzy friends.

I want them to represent, as adults, the best interests
of me and my country.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 06:57 PM

35. I don't know if that is unique to millenials

I campaigned for President Obama both elections and I was 28 for his election. But I do understand the idea of wanting that emotional connection especially if you have a more empathetic personality. I vote based on issues but I also believe that a person in power that is compassionate is more relatable and better equipped to deal with the pressures of being the leader of the free world. Not all millenials think the same but some wanted a candidate that resonated with them and for a lot of them that was Bernie Sanders. He spoke to them not down to them. He connected with them. It is going to be interesting going forward because of the anger and the divide in the party.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:04 PM

37. I didn't either, it would never have entered my mind. Ridiculous.

I don't know what the hell is wrong with people.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:11 PM

38. Thank you, and it's not just "millennials" that spew that "I need to be inspired" crap.

Last edited Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:37 PM - Edit history (1)

I have heard it coming out of 40-, 50-, and 60-somethings, as well. It's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard related to casting votes. I swear, people must think that their elected leaders are supposed to be some sort of gurus, rather than people whose job it is to keep the damn government running. Just pick the one you think is the best one for the job.

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Response to GoCubsGo (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:40 PM

44. exactly they aren't running to be your friend

or love interest. They are running to get the job.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:13 PM

39. Since 1960, voter turn out has been steadily dropping.

 

Only in recent times as there been an uptick.



So, you may not have expected candidates to inspire you, but maybe if they DID, voter turnout would look differently.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:19 PM

40. I have mixed feelings on this.

 

Although my political activity didn't start until the re-election of Bush 1.0, my support of Clinton was much along the same path of logic that you outline. He was the better choice, and I supported him.

This throw the baby out with the bath water mentality is irritating, especialy with the results we have to live with now that are downright frightening to me.

However, there is some appeal as well about the political idealism, and shooting for the stars that the mellinials have. My hope is that they keep that fire and passion, and as they grow older temper it with some additional logic and direction. Hopefully, many will learn as a result of this experience.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:29 PM

41. That's a false media narrative right up there with red vs blue states....

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:30 PM

42. It's not the voters

 

I just voted for them because I believed they would be much better for the country than the Republican candidate.


You hit the nail on the head.

The idea that a candidate ought to give voters a reason to vote for them is not a foreign concept in a democracy. You can blame the voters all you want but at some point you have to turn your gaze on the candidate and the campaign. Instead of asking why voters didn't vote the way you wanted, why not ask why voters didn't think that voting for Clinton was better than voting for Trump or not voting at all?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:39 PM

43. Me too I remember saying the same

when people complained Al Gore was boring. I have voted every two years as a civic duty and responsibility. There is no reason to make a big drama over it. Same with Hillary. Smart and capable of doing the job. That's all we need.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 07:50 PM

47. It's a different time..

There's more cynicism about politics than there ever has been before...

Depressingly low levels of civic knowledge, although I think that will change.

All the focus on transparency has created doubt and lack of confidence in our institutions, and to some extent, dehumanized our politicians. I suppose people want to be "inspired" by a candidate who will wipe the dirt away.

But it doesn't work that way.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:22 PM

48. Yeah, it's not like the Greatest Generation had an FDR to inspire, or Boomers a JFK.

Ooops, guess that blows that theory out of the water.

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:36 PM

53. Or even a Bill Clinton for that matter...

 

Yeah, I said it. In his prime he was inspiring and dare I call him "hip".

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Response to vi5 (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:14 PM

64. Gutting welfare and expanding the prison state is so inspiring /sarcasm

 

Gutting welfare, rolling back regulation on Wall Street, NAFTA, almost-but-not-quite-"saved"-social-security (read: privatize), massively expanding the prison state... these things are only "inspiring" to certain types of people. Luckily people don't remember these things and just remember the boom (and subsequent bust) from private sector debt spending caused by his destructive (yes destructive) surplus.

So for those people who don't know or remember, their conscience is clear. The Democratic congress was to the left of Bill on most things and I'm frankly glad the Clinton wing of the Democratic Party now will have less leverage. After all, bad policy doesn't change our party drastically, only general election performance and the framing thereof.

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Response to jake335544 (Reply #64)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:27 PM

67. Right. That explains why Bill Clinton never won any major elections.

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Response to DanTex (Reply #67)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:44 PM

68. The Clinton tech-debt boom, disguised the "welfare reform" lie from laypeople

 

But people who actually read the bill, including most congressional Democrats saw it was a lie before the bust.

Putting something like a national guaranteed jobs program while eliminating the laws that trap people on welfare from having jobs would have "gotten rid of welfare as we know it". But the Kasich Bill Clinton signed just assumed jobs would always be there and put Darwinian time restrictions on benefits.

After Clinton's tech-debt boom went bust, we saw the effect that this "workfare" had in mind. Taking people off the welfare rolls. Most congressional Democrats at the time predicted it would take people off the welfare rolls who would need it in a bad economy and that's why most congressional Democrats voted against it. The boom didn't blind them.

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Response to jake335544 (Reply #68)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:05 PM

70. I get it. When a Clinton loses, it's her fault. When a Clinton wins, it's other factors.

How about when a Sanders loses? Is it his fault, or is there someone else to blame.

Lemme guess...

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Response to jake335544 (Reply #64)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 11:08 PM

73. We dodn't know rhat at the time....

 

Which is why he was inspiring as a candidate. He was still relatively unknown.

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:43 PM

57. And in the meantime, they had Eisenhower and Nixon and Reagan and Bush

Nice try, but my point remains intact.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #57)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:57 PM

60. Not really. Look at the opponents of Nixon, Reagan and Bush.

Nixon: Hubert Humphrey wasn't that inspiring and split the vote with Wallace who ran as a third party candidate and actually received EVs.

Nixon: McGovern was uninspiring and was completely desimated.

Eisenhower: I wasn't around so I couldn't tell you

Reagan: Carter was a victim of bad timing. The economy tanked and the automation revolution was just beginning.

Reagan: Mondale was as bland as they come and had no real message.

Bush: I never found Gore that inspiring. He was a policy wonk like Hillary, but smarter. Had many of the same flaws as Hillary.

Bush: Kerry was very uninspiring. He always reminds me of Droopy the Dog from the Tom and Jerry cartoons. His message was solid, but he didn't really connect with a lot of people.

Your point is totally debunked. Every time we field candidates that do not inspire since the second half the 20th century we lose.

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #60)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:11 PM

63. Hillary inspired millions of people

Apparently you weren't one of them - apparently you found Trump more inspiring. Interesting.

But you've completely missed my point. My post didn't argue that any one candidate was more inspiring than the other. The point was that the notion that a candidate must inspire and excite a voter in order to get their vote is a new one, regardless how you try to change the subject.

And since my post focused solely on how *I* approached elections in the past, your odd taunting about how you've debunked my argument is just silly since you cannot debunk my persona experience.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #63)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:23 PM

66. Trump inspired millions. Reagan inspired millions,

Your personal experience is just that: your personal experience. But you used the thinnest of veils to slam millenials. If your intention was not to, then you would have never used the word millenials.

You're slamming a generation based on your personal experience, and you're doing it in the same way that Trump slams PoC and women.

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Response to Exilednight (Reply #66)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:49 PM

69. And Hillary inspired millions. Several million more than Trump did.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #69)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 10:29 PM

71. But not as many as Obama and not enough to win an election.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:31 PM

51. They won't think the world revolves around them when the next war comes.

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Response to Cattledog (Reply #51)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:41 PM

56. We're currently fighting three wars. They're the only generation to the mainland attacked.

There the generation fighting this war while being lead by Boomers and Gen Xers.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:34 PM

52. Why are millennials more obligated to vote for a particular candidate?

 

Especially in this case, if Hillary couldn't even inspire a majority her own demographic (white women of a particular age) to vote for her over the other candidate, especially given that most of them grew up in a time where they actually were victims of the acceptance of behaviors like Trumps then why do we bitch and moan about young people not voting for her? Why are we o.k. with older people not voting for her but feel entitled to the votes of younger folks?

Maybe if people our age (at least based on your reference points) worried more about convincing our own age groups and demographics first, then we can start lecturing other groups outside of our own on what they are obligated to do and what they should do.

This whole angle of complaint reeks of a "Do as I say and not as I do" shtick that is not going to accomplish anything.

And that's not even getting into the fact that it's a different world that they are living in than the one we are living in now, that is worse in a lot of ways.

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Response to vi5 (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:44 PM

58. older non white people did vote for her. and Obama did not win young white voters

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Response to JI7 (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 11:06 PM

72. I didn't say older non white people.

 

Hillary is an older white woman. Shouldnt it bother us more that Older white women didnt vote for her than it does that younger people who have even less to relate to didn't vote for her?

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Response to vi5 (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 11:10 PM

74. they didn't vote for her because she supported mothers of innocent black people killed

And similar things. Yes it bothers us but we don't blame Clinton for it because we know why they don't support her and most democrats.

I'm not white and neither is the OP and there is no way those white women will listen to us.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #74)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:36 AM

80. Their choice: align with a diverse group of voters to support a woman who was the most qualified

candidate in memory or align with an overwhelmingly white group of voters - including members of the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis - to support a racist, misogynistic candidate who bragged about treating women like shit, demonstrated a visceral disdain for minorities, proved himself completely unprepared and unfit to be president.

They chose the latter.

And they didn't do it because Hillary wasn't inspiring enough.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #74)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 10:47 AM

83. And I definitely get all of that.....

 

...again, I understand why those particular groups vote FOR her. And I know why I, as a 46 year old white male voted for her. I do understand fully the reason why people who voted for her, did vote for her.

My only issue is that if this is a candidate who can't even get people of her own demographic and age group to vote for her, when they share the same basic experiences in life due to their age, gender, and ethnicity, then why do we harp on younger people not voting for her? I'm not sure why people who have almost nothing in common with the candidate, and have no concept of her life experiences and vice versa, should be chastized for not voting for her, but those with the most in common with her get off scott-free without being admonished on every other thread on here.

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Response to vi5 (Reply #83)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 12:27 PM

86. What do those people have in common with Donald Trump?

They didn't vote for Donald Trump because they had anything in common with him or because they understood his life experiences. Most of those people were exactly the people that Donald Trump has spent his life laughing at and staying as far away from as possible. So I am not going to let them off the hook for their choice by blaming Hillary for failing to connect with people who had much more in common with her than with Trump.

It's interesting that you are criticizing Hillary for not doing a good enough job playing "identity politics," assuming that people who share her age, gender and ethnicity should vote for her - the classic definition of identity politics - and if they don't vote for her based on their shared identity, it's HER fault. But maybe many people who share her age, gender and ethnicity are still bigots and misogynists (yes, women can be misogynistic) or are chillingly comfortable in their midst and rejected her because she was too closely aligned with people of color (aka "race traitor) and liberal women and consciously decided to join forces with Donald Trump and white working class men, even if it meant also lining up with the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis. Apparently, they felt they had more in common with that cabal than with the woman who has spent her life fighting for them. That is their fault, not hers.

I stand by my point. These people voted for Trump because he appealed to something in them that they feel won't be satisfied by the Democratic Party. And it's not economics. It's a social construct that they either are fully on board with or are very comfortable perpetuating to the detriment of people like me. It's a social construct that their predecessors, the Dixiecrats, took with them to the Republican Party when they stormed out of the Democratic Party 60 years ago - and good riddance. They can keep that social construct over there with them. We don't need it and don't want it over here.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #86)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:22 PM

87. And again...all of that is well and good and true...

 

I'm not disputing any of that. As long as people don't go around bitching about Millennials or young people not voting for Hillary, if their own groups or demographics didn't. If you or the OP don't fall in that category then fine. But I'm seeing and reading a lot of people who I know for a fact are members of groups that voted either overwhelmingly or at least split for Trump who are wagging their fingers at Millennials and young people for not voting for Hillary as though there were some law or rule that they had to.

I'm a middle aged white male. I'm the epitome of the group that didn't vote for Hillary and did vote for Trump. My point is, that even though I voted for her and supported her I wouldn't in a million years have the gall to sit here or anywhere and lecture younger people or millennials as to what they did wrong in this election or how they didn't turn out to vote or that they didn't turn out to vote for Hillary.

And I didn't criticize her for not playing "identity politics". I don't use that term so don't put quotes on it in response to me.

The fact is that we should all be out there, giving as many groups as possible, as many reasons to vote FOR our candidate. But unless our own individual houses are in order we should refrain from blaming any particular group for any of this (although I would be more than happy to blame my own pathetic, insecure, racist, middle aged white people for a hefty fucking chunk of this).

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:39 PM

55. Milleneals are a very different generation.

In many ways, they are idealists. You ignore that, at your own peril.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 08:57 PM

59. I was upset when Jimmy Carter instituted Draft Registration to fight the Afghanistan War.

 

We're still in Afghanistan, today, after many decades, so the plan hasn't worked, yet.

13 of us were arrested blocking the doors of the US Federal Courthouse in Des Moines when Gary Eckland was put on trial for Draft Registration Resistance. Rusty Martin was also tried and convicted.

Eventually, we forced the government to back down and stop the prosecutions, but then the Solomon Amendment came along, and the Pacifist Purges of Higher Education was initiated, purges which continue to this day.

It was a cowardly and backhanded way for a cowardly government to go after folks who they didn't have the courage to face and prosecute in public.

That's when I was kicked out of school for being a Pacifist.

To this day, I don't have an undergraduate degree, because of the Pacifist Purges of Higher Education.







Oh, yeah...almost forgot.

Did I mention just how cowardly the Solomon Amendment is?

They don't have the guts to prosecute. All they can do is deny an education to those of us who they hate.

Fucking cowards!


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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:04 PM

62. Younger voters are less mature and sophisticated about the political

 

process. They've always lagged older voters in turnout. Gen Xers used to have terrible turnout.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sat Dec 3, 2016, 09:18 PM

65. I voted for the Democrat

Because I knew he/she was the best chance for the country. Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Obama, Obama, and Clinton.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 12:29 AM

75. I've Been Wondering

about this for awhile now. Hey kids! You live in this country, you work in this country, you do or will raise kids in this country, you will retire in this country, your parents will grow old in this country... one of these candidates is going to win the election, and it's going to affect your life, whether they "reached out" to you or not. Grow the hell up.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:04 AM

76. OFFS.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:41 AM

81. I voted when I was young because my parents

Taught me how important it is to vote. I wonder how many of the non voters have parents that don't care or didn't teach their kids this.

We have 3 daughters 29, 35, and 37 and they all voted for Hillary.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 10:51 AM

84. Exactly!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 12:12 PM

85. It's not just millennials; it's everyone with that mindset.

I saw plenty of people who claimed to be non-millennials making similar arguments here and elsewhere. The sense of selfish entitlement - the idea that I'm only going to vote if my pet issue is addressed or a candidate personally lights a fire under my ass - seems to cover the demographic spectrum.

When, in the end, the choice was binary. Vote for one of the most qualified candidates in history or vote for a pathologically-lying sociopath. Not terribly difficult.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 01:56 PM

88. I was too young to vote for him but I remember this guy named John F. Kennedy.

 

From what my parents told me he was pretty damn inspirating. So was the president of their youth, one Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Jimmy Carter inspired many in his first run for president-but fell short of expectations and did not win reelection. Bill Clinton in 92 inspired quite a few people as well-not me--I was a Jerry Brown supporter but I held my nose and voted for him in the general election. I was quite happy when he won. Then there was this guy named Barak Obama... Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, I hate to say it--were also inspiring to many Americans as is Donald Trump.. You know what we call them:Mr. President.

You know who was not inspiring, Mike Dukakis, Walter Mondale, John Kerry (who I strongly supported by the way), Al Gore (who could have been inspiring if he'd chosen to speak on the topic which inspired him the most). On the Republican side Bob Dole, John McCain and Mitt Romney. We call them losers (although in Gore's case he arguably won both the popular vote and the electoral college).

Campaiign in poetry and govern in prose. John F. Kennedy and Barak Obama understood that as did Bill Clinton in his prime. "Hope and Change" always win over more of the same especially when people are hurting. No politician owns anyone's vote. They have to ask for it, beg for it and above all make their cause of how they will make the indiviual voter's life better.

I realize people are disappointed and angry but taking it out on voters is not productive.








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Response to Seshat (Reply #88)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 08:59 PM

98. And Hillary inspired millions, with more than 65 million voting for her. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #98)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 10:18 PM

102. I agree. That's why this thread is so silly.

 

The problem is that The democrats had the great good fortune to have had two inspirational candidates this year.

If Hillary had not inspired anyone no one but the party establishment no one would be mourning her defeat. If Bernie had not inspired his followers he'd be well Dennis Kucinich (no insult to Kucinich groupies intended btw)

The problem is that they inspired competing parts of the unmanageable mess known as the Democratic coalition.

It's pretty clear that Sanders had the millennials, rank and file labor and older FDR populists like me. Clinton had the older African-Americans, the first wave feminists, labor leaders and the party loyalists.

It's clear things broke down between Clinton and Sanders supporters--not all but enough to perhaps make a difference.

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Response to Seshat (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 11:10 PM

104. Welcome to DU, Seshat! n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #104)

Mon Dec 5, 2016, 12:07 AM

106. Thanks.

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 04:31 PM

89. My generation must be made to feel oh so SPECIAL

 

Oh YES. Not us black ones. We are not 'real' millennials to the media, so nobody notices that we kinda never get our way and seem to manage without meltdowns.

But yeah. This shit where a candidate has to be deified is garbage. I have only ever liked Obama, really. Clinton grew on me this campaign season, but even if she hadn't, I would still have voted like I always do. They'll learn that Trump was the worst thing to happen to them. We tried to spare them this but they were determined to make us pay

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Response to bravenak (Reply #89)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 07:53 PM

92. I know you're a thoughtful and smart member of this community, so if we dig deeper than the

reflexive "get off my lawn"-itude and the too-easy asides in this thread about special snowflakes and whatnot (whatever criticisms can be leveled at parenting styles that brought up Millennials, it's a statistically documented fact that they are the most tolerant generation in US history when it comes to things like LGBTQ equality; so someone must have done something right, along the way) I think we would agree that there's an actual phenomenon or two at play.


...here's what I've noticed, Brave. Those of us who are old enough to remember, well, how badly the GOP fucks things up when they are in charge, are in a decidedly different position than the younger folks for whom Dubya is a distant childhood memory. I have a nephew who is about 20. For him, Obama is really the only President he remembers. The noise he grew up with around how awful the Dubya/Cheney years, sounds like hyperbolic axe grinding from his uniformly liberal elder relatives. And who doesn't want to rebel against the old folks?

This may be an unavoidable facet of having a President for 8 years. The young folks may just need to discover for themselves how bad the other team is.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #92)

Mon Dec 5, 2016, 09:44 AM

107. I think you are right

 

I remember Bush, to them he is just a goofy guy who they barely remember. But they gonna learn. And when they do? Boy oh boy, people thought they were mad this year when shit didn't go their way? This time they will be adult angry. Because it will be real shit, not just ct's about 'unfairness'.

These kinds aint never tasted a piece of government cheese. Trump will give them a tasteand they will learn about the Gop. So many kids I talk to at school seriously think they are the same as dems. And that presidents have to act right.


Too bad the media focuses on dumb shit and forgets to remind us and these kids about how we got into the last war.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 06:52 PM

91. You weren't a Millennial.

Millennials are a generation term for people generally born between 1980-2000, more or less.

Generation labels pertain to a specific generation cohort. Broad age-based categories, on the other hand, can apply to anyone in that specific phase of life, like; "surly youth" "hyperactive toddler" or "cranky-ass older person pissing and moaning predictably about these kids today"

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #91)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 08:54 PM

96. Duh - that's why I put it in quotes ...

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #96)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 08:58 PM

97. well, okay then.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 08:59 PM

99. It's all new to everybody, because it's all bullshit

oversimplified, whiny pablum designed to prevent any real change, and continue business as usual.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 10:37 PM

103. as an rely politics fan, i knew dukakis was popp. but so was GHWB.

iran contra seemed enough. but then, i did not get the media game them. still sucking on reagan's ass.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Sun Dec 4, 2016, 11:54 PM

105. Millenials voted for Clinton

 

It's a shame your age group voted for Trump

Were they waiting for inspiration or something?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 09:51 PM

108. Same here

I worked in the McGovern campaign and voted for every Democratic nominee starting with Jimmy Carter. In the real world, we need to understand and support the party

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 09:56 PM

109. I sure feared Reagan, so I stood in a really long line

They may have announced that he won while we were in line. However, I had a visceral fear of Reagan. I wasn't really inspired by Carter, but I feared Reagan.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)


Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Thu Dec 8, 2016, 11:48 PM

111. +1,000

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 06:59 AM

112. Trump's swift kick in their asses will get them inspired enough.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 08:23 AM

113. Millennial here!

 

Want to know what the biggest issue is with me and what impacts me?

My student loans. I don't know if I will ever own a house in my lifetime because of it. Think about that. My generation is the first ever to make less than our parents made. It's pretty bleak from our point of view and we need help.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 08:25 AM

114. ...



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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Fri Dec 9, 2016, 10:14 AM

115. Commercial branding has replaced policy analysis for far too many people.

Commercial branding of a candidate has replaced policy analysis for far too many people. It's almost as though the go-ahead were given to abandon critique and inquiry for shallow, 30-second bumper-stickers assigning blame to everyone but the person assigning blame, idiotic t-shirt slogans about "new blood, new ideas", and a craven desire to be the center of the party's definition.

I most likely did the same as well when much younger, but it passes.

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