Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Yavin4

(35,354 posts)
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 05:50 PM Dec 2016

Bernie Sanders could not, and will not be able to, get racist White Americans to stop voting against

their best economic interests. They will wholly reject his agenda for the very simple reason that Black and Latino people would get the same benefit. American racism is the true opposition to a progressive agenda.

Until Bernie, Thom Hartmann, Lawrence Frank, Michael Moore, etc. can get the White working class to get over their racism, then there will be little to no progress in America.

Finally, NO, Barack Obama's two victories DOES NOT disprove my point. Obama lost the White vote by 20 points to Mitt Romney in 2012. He made up for it by turnout. Please do not use Obama's elections as some sort of proof that Whites don't vote out of racial bias.

56 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Bernie Sanders could not, and will not be able to, get racist White Americans to stop voting against (Original Post) Yavin4 Dec 2016 OP
when we tell the story of the great democrat FDR, we conveniently leave out La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2016 #1
Black people have a huge amount of power in The US. Ligyron Dec 2016 #2
Nothing they can say to these people will change anything bravenak Dec 2016 #3
That isn't what Sanders, or most of us want at all. MLK understood that people could change. If he JCanete Dec 2016 #6
Sanders is not MLK and the comparison is insensitive at best and appropriation assuredly bravenak Dec 2016 #7
But he marched to see Martin!...nt SidDithers Dec 2016 #8
Groan.... bravenak Dec 2016 #10
Well, actually, he rode the chartered bus from Chicago, then marched there from the parking lot ... EffieBlack Dec 2016 #12
LOL bravenak Dec 2016 #18
You say that like it's a bad thing NWCorona Dec 2016 #32
what the fuck. That is not what I did, and it is really lame for you to try to say I did that, JCanete Dec 2016 #14
It's lame to jump straight to MLK when he was never the subject then accuse me of going bravenak Dec 2016 #17
Just so you know, I use MLK because I admire him and personally think of him as a hero. Exactly JCanete Dec 2016 #22
Once MLK became weaponized against us, he lost that usefulness for us. bravenak Dec 2016 #23
Sadly, so did Malcolm X. But your point is taken, and I hate to be trite. I really don't think JCanete Dec 2016 #24
Blavk lives Matter is serving the purpose they set out for bravenak Dec 2016 #25
She didnt read past the first semtence in your post. jack_krass Dec 2016 #54
You just put a shitload of words in that posters mouth., fwiw. dionysus Dec 2016 #28
Why even bring him up in that context? It's a pattern bravenak Dec 2016 #30
I saw leople pointing out that he was indeed involved in supporting civilrights, i did not see anyon dionysus Dec 2016 #31
Racists will still vote GOP, but Bernie would do a lot better than 3rd way identity politics jfern Dec 2016 #4
So you favour tossing us PoC, LGBTQ, and women under the bus? Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #33
Nope, but what needs to go is the idea that Bernie's supporters are all racist and sexist white male jfern Dec 2016 #35
strawmen, as no one made any absolute statements about all Bernie supporters being racists, nor Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #36
3rd way identity politics attacked Bernie supporters as being sexist and racist jfern Dec 2016 #37
there is no such as "3rd way identity politics" as I thoroughly explained above Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #39
President Trump should thank you for your gaslighting of progressives. jfern Dec 2016 #40
gaslighting progressives??? YOU are the one tossing minorities like myself under the bus Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #41
I never did shit to throw minorities under the bus jfern Dec 2016 #43
I have not attacked progressives ever, I have simply said that doing away with identity politics is Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #44
Again, it's a divisive lie to claim Bernie only cares about economic issues jfern Dec 2016 #45
Again with the blatant misrepresentations, projection and ad hominem Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #46
That Vox calculator is a total fraud. jfern Dec 2016 #47
weak sauce, a hyper-technical analysis of the tax plan that would have been deluged by the RW hit Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #48
The Cold War ended 25 years ago, red-baiting isn't going to work the way it would have jfern Dec 2016 #50
He is NOT a democratic socialist, ffs Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #51
Poster is doing a fine job right here of pointing out the ugly of his own base. Shameful indeed lunasun Dec 2016 #53
MANY white working class folks voted for Obama. This is just true. And Bernie is not trying to RBInMaine Dec 2016 #5
Nobody said the word ALL bravenak Dec 2016 #20
What people always seem to gloss over is every single white person and every other boston bean Dec 2016 #38
We sure can bravenak Dec 2016 #42
no shit!! so so so sick of people using blatant misrepresentation , projection and ad hominem Grey Lemercier Dec 2016 #49
The lie that Trump won because of economic populism... joshcryer Dec 2016 #9
So the MANY white voters who voted for Obama and switched to Trump are ALL racists? RBInMaine Dec 2016 #11
How many actually did this? Don't guess or speculate. What are the numbers? EffieBlack Dec 2016 #13
It's a manufactured talking point. bravenak Dec 2016 #19
Far more stayed home than switched. joshcryer Dec 2016 #27
yes all Trump voters are racists. stonecutter357 Dec 2016 #52
Looks like not everyone agrees with your assessment of the white working class. jalan48 Dec 2016 #15
I expect Joe to say that, but he of all people should know.. JHan Dec 2016 #21
Racism is a real, yet still one of several, reasons why people voted for snifler. dionysus Dec 2016 #29
Yah, Joe's obviously a racist. Or is it sexists, maybe both. And also probably not a "real Democrat" jack_krass Dec 2016 #56
Let's find out :) Tiggeroshii Dec 2016 #16
+1, +++++++++ OBAMA WASN'T RUNNING AGAINST OVERT RACIST EITHER ++++++++++ uponit7771 Dec 2016 #26
HRC won the popular vote, BS would have won the popular vote. Rex Dec 2016 #34
"Racist white Americans" are a statistically insignificant voting block. What Sanders, or successor jack_krass Dec 2016 #55
 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
1. when we tell the story of the great democrat FDR, we conveniently leave out
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 06:45 PM
Dec 2016

how he created a welfare state by intentionally excluding black people so poor white would vote for their own economic interest.

(to jury: this is not an attack on FDR, but a discussion of how race is inherent to how we vote for our economic interests)

Ligyron

(7,592 posts)
2. Black people have a huge amount of power in The US.
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 06:47 PM
Dec 2016

The power to warp white people's minds into voting against their own interests.

The RW and corporate GOP has firmly established the easily disprovable myth that black and brown "Welfare Queens" get rich off the government by having as many kids as possible so they can then spend the money on drugs. It doesn't matter what facts or statistics one presents to them, this is right up there with the Bible and deeply embedded in their mythology.

I don't get it or know what to do about it either.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
3. Nothing they can say to these people will change anything
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 06:50 PM
Dec 2016

So they try to work on us instead and make us ignore that crap in order to peel off a few white votes. Basically they take us for granted and want us to shuck and jive but we better not call it shucking and jiving!! They call it 'empathizing' with the 'white working class'.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
6. That isn't what Sanders, or most of us want at all. MLK understood that people could change. If he
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 12:28 PM
Dec 2016

hadn't thought that, there would have been no earthly point to his method of protest, or the love he was advocating in his speeches. He did something that actually worked...that actually changed hearts and minds. Was he "shucking and jiving?"
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
7. Sanders is not MLK and the comparison is insensitive at best and appropriation assuredly
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:23 PM
Dec 2016

That is how he lost us. Insensitivity, appropriation, not listening, abd his fans deification of him to the point that they were calling him the heir of MLK. Pissed us off but yall just keep on trying to bernie=mlk us, like we cannot see thru that.

No matter how many time we say it fucking irritates us that white folks are trying to shove him down our throats and tell us we should love him, they just will no fucking stop. Trying to raise him up the ranks of 'civil rights leadership' when millions of poor blacks in the south gave their entire fucking lives, suffered beatings, rapes, and got back up and kept fighting, BERNIE is somehow more of a legend in you guys eyes that JOHN FUCKING LEWIS. The man who ACTUALLY marched with MLK. That is why he failed so hard with us and it will happen just the same if we are faced with another whitewashe of history. If a white person does ten times less than a black person, the white person is a god and the black person is a sell out.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
12. Well, actually, he rode the chartered bus from Chicago, then marched there from the parking lot ...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:27 PM
Dec 2016
 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
14. what the fuck. That is not what I did, and it is really lame for you to try to say I did that,
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 03:12 PM
Dec 2016

or that Sanders did that. You know its not what I did. You're capacity to insincerely turn things around is infuriating.

I am talking about your characterization of people versus King's. I will say this confidently though. Sanders is closer to King on this than you are.


And I have no idea why you think that we, or I specifically, think Sanders is more of a Civil Rights legend than John Lewis. That has nothing to do with whether Sanders is more right than Lewis about how we need to fix our problems in this nation, which he is. There's no trying to convince black people that Sanders is their champion. Here, we're on a political board where we're discussing things. If I say he's better on issues that actually help people of color than Clinton, that is talking about the issues, not trying to shove him down your throat. That characterization is not actually conducive to discussion about shit that matters.

Prove me wrong on those issues, don't make it about something else.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
17. It's lame to jump straight to MLK when he was never the subject then accuse me of going
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:00 PM
Dec 2016

off topic. You made the comparison between them by juxtaposing something about Bernie, then straight to MLK like they are the same or even in the same league. I have something that will help you understand why it enrages us to have white liberals and progressives try to use MLK against us in ways meant to get us to see shit their way.

http://www.okayplayer.com/news/martin-luther-king-his-nightmare-their-dream-our-reality-opinion.html/2

In death, the white imagination found new use for Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He became weaponized against more black radical resistance strategies to ensure obedience and disruption that could be controlled—even marketed for consumption. The idea of King is perpetually used to invoke ideas of non-violence, despite the fact that it was a bullet from a gun that went through his jaw, through his shoulder and his spinal cord that ended his life. By white liberals and people of all races complicit in white supremacy, he is consistently used to create order and peace despite writing this sentiment on the love of order in a letter from the Birmingham jail: “The Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than [to] justice”. Three days after his death Nina Simone sang that the King of Love is dead and riots broke out nationwide. During a 60 Minutes interview in 1966, Martin Luther King Jr. said to Mike Wallace, “A riot is the language of the unheard.”

In 2016, an understandable rejection of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. exists amongst artists, organizers, thinkers and everyday folks alike who are interested in radical resistance practices because of this reimagining of who MLK was in the white imagination and how it has been used to silence and de-radicalize black movements. King will continue to be used to silence black people and other people of color and invoke ideas of interlocking arms of people that live underneath domination quietly, peacefully and most disturbingly, willingly.

The most disturbing part of this manipulation is that you can weaponize almost anyone against the very people they desired to liberate if you use their dreams and hopes of what they wish to be as laws, especially in death, when the details are those for domination to handle, not the actual dreamer of these dreams. Love is paramount and necessary. Love is important to express and articulate, and move towards. Peace is ideal. Peace is something to dream of, articulate, theorize and choose first. What domination will not express clearly is that black resistance did choose peace first and the choice dropped dead on a balcony in Memphis, Tennessee decades ago. Domination will use those that dreamed of peace, but were still slain by white domination as a way to keep the marginalized suffering and domination perpetuating. It will dethrone a king and strip away all substance of what he stood for, and give him a holiday and a dream if it means keeping black people stuck between a cop and a hard, orange place.


If the progressive left ever wants to have a communion with black america, they need to drop the MLK shit and start coming up with their own ideas, and straight up? Stop telling us that you think his ideas are better for us. Just stop. Okay? We fucking know you think that but since we own ourselves maybe what we think is best for us matters more when discussing and crafting policy and looking for leadership. I know yall don't realize what you are doing when you do it, but when you finally do get how paternalistic you sound telling grown ups what you think is best for their entire race constantly, you'll feel strange about it and might just agonize over whether you have been treating intelligent adults like large children. I'm serious.

What if whites were a minority and blacks constantly told you that some old black guy was your champion and every time we brought him up it was connected to one of your entire race's civil rights legend and we used his words to try to persuade you even though you said 'please stop' like years ago? That our hero was not YOUR hero.
 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
22. Just so you know, I use MLK because I admire him and personally think of him as a hero. Exactly
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:59 PM
Dec 2016

why shouldn't I think of him as my hero though? That isn't appropriation. The opposite seems obscene to me actually. "you have your heroes and we have ours, and never the twain should mix."

And this was kind of his wheelhouse. I'm not citing Neal Degrasse Tyson to try to pander to you or something.
Besides, you are creating a catch 22 where I wouldn't be able to site a white person who I think is a hero without you claiming that I'm trying to raise somebody up in the ranks of civil rights compared to those who suffered at the hands of inequality anyway.

By the way, I don't want to suggest that you don't have a point. I know that shit happens. I don't think you can apply it to me in this instance. I don't exactly know what rhetorical tools you think I should be left with if I don't use the historic figures who have informed me on these issues.

Edit: It needs to be said, I don't just have respect for King. I have it for the Black Panther Party and for Malcolm X. I would never suggest that there isn't a legitimate argument to be made that civil disobedience isn't enough. More to the point, it is entirely sane and human and brave to stand up against racial violence with actual force. It is rarely as effective on its own though as far as I can tell.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
23. Once MLK became weaponized against us, he lost that usefulness for us.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 06:24 PM
Dec 2016

We admire him for what he did and accomplished, but why would we try to repeat his work? If it were completely successful we would not be here. When I hear MLK and this message coming FROM whites TO blacks, it really does not have the same influence as it does coming from MLK directly.
What I suggest is this. Admire him if you do, it makes sense, but never try to use him to win in a discussion with black liberals or activists or thinkers and those of us who spend the time understanding the true history of the african diaspora. I would say read more Ta Nehisi Coates. Find newer black leaders and academics to use as a means of understanding black people in America today.
When MLK was around they wanted him to be Frederick Douglass and W.E.B DuBois; in this day they want us to be MLK. I sometime wonder if it would please them to watch us sing 'We Shall Overcome' while getting spit and beat on and bit by dogs and just sitting there like dumbasses hoping against hope that the horror of this would change white minds. It never did. It embarassed them to have the world watching.
When we hear/see/read a leftist progressive trying to use MLK as a weapon, we know they lack the wherewuthal to come up with a way to connect with us without using cheap tricks and manipulation. Everybody from Bernie to Bill Oreilly has tried to use MLK. We will not repeat that movement and sit there and be abused for the amusement if white americans or as props to show how human we are. We tried the nonviolent turn the other cheek bullshit forever. We are basically malcolm x now. We don't want to be MLK. He died.

 

JCanete

(5,272 posts)
24. Sadly, so did Malcolm X. But your point is taken, and I hate to be trite. I really don't think
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 06:36 PM
Dec 2016

in the modern world we live in that there is such a thing as effective resistance that is violent. I know you don't really believe that's the way of things either. You're waiting for the scales to tip. And then we'll have a different form of racism, or discrimination on religion or whatever other tools the powers that be will use to divide us, but at least that will be a redress to you I guess. I think the people will continue to be manipulated for the sake of lining the aristocracy's pockets and the suffering wrought by man against man will never lose fashion if we don't clip the wings of the people who keep setting us upon each other. It'll be the same game, different players.

I will read some Ta Nehisi Coates, and I appreciate the suggestion.

Just a question...how do you feel about Black Lives Matter? That is a non-violent movement. I know what the sick fucks in the media have tried to do to it, but your take...effective or ineffective?
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
25. Blavk lives Matter is serving the purpose they set out for
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:25 PM
Dec 2016

To bring awareness to our murders, and so long as they remain what they are I support that. Are they effective? Yes. Very. We used to not even discuss cops murdering black people much before.

I believe that Many roads lead to the same castle, and I think it will take all types of people to do the necessary work to finish the struggle. But there will always be another struggle. That is the human condition. The things we do to each other in the name of our own comfort and satisfaction leave me almost hopeless.
Oppression has been the fashion since the days before we left the trees behind and began our long journey to becomming human. I believe we cannot leave it behind until we leave this rock we call home. So, we do what we can in the meantime to make this world liveable until humanity decides whether we will end up like Star Trek or like The Apocalypse from the Left Behind Novels.

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
28. You just put a shitload of words in that posters mouth., fwiw.
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 06:07 AM
Dec 2016

Nobody ever said bernie was MLK. Nobody.

What happened was, in case you really don't know... when team hillary was pushing the meme that bernie just isn't i to black people, it was pointed out that he was marching for civil rights while hillary was president of her college republicans club.

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
31. I saw leople pointing out that he was indeed involved in supporting civilrights, i did not see anyon
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 06:26 AM
Dec 2016

Claiming him to be a big figure in the movement.

Some folks were stopping just short of calling the giy an actual racist, at points. People were juat trying to counter that, is all.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
4. Racists will still vote GOP, but Bernie would do a lot better than 3rd way identity politics
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 08:15 PM
Dec 2016

at winning whites.

 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
33. So you favour tossing us PoC, LGBTQ, and women under the bus?
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 11:00 AM
Dec 2016

Because by attacking identity politics that is just what you did. Bashing identity politics is pushing a RW meme.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
35. Nope, but what needs to go is the idea that Bernie's supporters are all racist and sexist white male
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 03:32 AM
Dec 2016

And that we can't ever nominate a white male again. The way progressives got attacked by the Hillary campaign is unforgivable.

And the Clintons repeatedly threw gays under the bus with DADT and DOMA, so don't act like 3rd way identity politics is actually better for people. It's not. 3rd way identity politics is terrible even if doesn't result in Trump as President, which it did.

 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
36. strawmen, as no one made any absolute statements about all Bernie supporters being racists, nor
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 03:47 AM
Dec 2016

did anyone say we could not nominate a white male ever again. I personally was a Biden supporter until he chose not to run, then I quickly pivoted to Hillary.

I also take issue with your conflation of 3rd-way neoliberal economics and identity politics in your examples. The 2 have nothing to do with each other. A personal can have any economic policy they wish and still toss minorities under the bus. Hillary sufficiently evolved on the LGBTQ issues to garner my full support. She did for women's issues and racial issues as well. Bernie, with his recent verbal shunting aside of identity politics (and thus the core base of the Democratic Party) did not and has not. I simply do not accept a platform that places economics above all else, as we are under, and will be even more so when the rabid bible-bangers unleashed by Trump's election, a regime and culture trying to literally erase us.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
37. 3rd way identity politics attacked Bernie supporters as being sexist and racist
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 04:10 AM
Dec 2016

chair throwing white males. That bullshit is destroying the party. If you don't see that as a problem, you are part of the problem.

 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
39. there is no such as "3rd way identity politics" as I thoroughly explained above
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 04:47 AM
Dec 2016

Secondly, bashing identity politics is dog whistling, IMHO. I take issue with people telling me and my fellow minorities that the Democratic Party needs to go try and cozy up to white Trump voters who willfully voted for a racist, misogynistic fascist.

Also, amongst some, (notice I said some, NOT all) Bernie supporters, there indeed was racism and misogyny.


The Racist Side of Bernie Sanders Supporters

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/26/the-racist-side-of-bernie-sanders-supporters.html

While high-profile Republicans step forward to denounce one of their own and to argue that minorities should be treated with courtesy and respect, plenty of white progressives seem intent on putting us in our place, so to speak, and keeping us there. Though much of the media coverage of so-called Bernie Bros—overzealous, predominantly white, young, and male Sanders supporters—has focused on their treatment of female journalists online, their lack of respect for racial and ethnic minorities who deign to challenge Sanders has been perhaps more chilling.

The Washington Post noted that at one point #MississippiBerning became a hashtag used by Sanders supporters on social media—a witty and clever turn of phrase unless of course you are a black American who hears the words “Mississippi burning” and immediately thinks of church bombings and lynchings.

Black writers and activists who have had the temerity to challenge Sanders’s record have been targeted by his supporters in ways that go against not just civility but even decency. I should know. I’m one of them. For having the gall to share my perspective, buoyed by polling data, that self-described socialists are pretty much unelectable to the American presidency, his supporters attempted to harass me offline. (Emphasis on “attempted.”)



The Bernie Bros are out in full force harassing female reporters

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/07/the-bernie-bros-are-out-in-full-force-harassing-female-reporters/?utm_term=.9bd14bcee478

If there is a trophy for bad behavior, Bernie Sanders's supporters appear hellbent on taking it from Donald Trump's.

The latest ugly episode involves threatening phone calls to New York Times reporter Amy Chozick and at least one harassing, profanity-laced message directed at NPR's Tamara Keith on Tuesday.



BuzzFeed's Ruby Cramer says her email inbox was on the receiving end of similar missives Tuesday.




This comes two weeks after Daily Beast columnist and WNYC radio host Keli Goff chronicled some of the racist mail she receives from Sanders backers. Here at The Fix, our own Janell Ross has written about her experience with racist, sexist messages from so-called "Bernie Bros."

Bernie Sanders’s most vitriolic supporters really test the meaning of the word ‘progressive

They use a variety of curse words and insults typically reserved for women. More than one has suggested that I deserve to become the victim of a sex crime. They critique the "objectivity" of what is clearly political analysis based on polling data and other facts; they insist that black voters are dumb or that I have a personal obligation to help black voters see the error of their Clinton-voting ways. It is vile. And it stands in sharp contrast to the claim that no portion of Sanders supporters are angry people who sometimes engage in or embrace bigotry.

snip
 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
41. gaslighting progressives??? YOU are the one tossing minorities like myself under the bus
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 05:00 AM
Dec 2016

with your trying to tie onerous 3rd way economic policy to an attack on identity politics. And I take great offense at you conflating my vigorous protest of this attempt as somehow making me a Trump supporter. Shameful.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
43. I never did shit to throw minorities under the bus
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 05:14 AM
Dec 2016

And Bernie got interested in politics because his family was killed in the Holocaust. He cares about a lot more than economic issues.

No, you're not a Trump supporter, but your scorched earth attacks on progressives and defeating Bernie in the primary ensured that Trump won.

 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
44. I have not attacked progressives ever, I have simply said that doing away with identity politics is
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 06:19 AM
Dec 2016

not only immoral, but a guaranteed loser in elections. I also refuse to allow you to conflate 3rd-way neoliberal economics with identity politics. That is, IMHO a thinly veiled attempt to promote a RW meme that attacks the base of the party, ie., us minorities.

Sanders got thumped by Hillary in the primary. he would have gotten hammered in the general election. Bernies does not single-handedly represent progressivism in the USA and he certainly has made some really dodgy comments, especially after the election.

Bernie trashed Hillary with a RW meme:

"That's just the truth. Running against the most unpopular presidential candidate in history, the Republicans have just won the White House.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8387036



The results are now final: Clinton wins popular vote by nearly 3 million

http://www.businessinsider.com/popular-vote-trump-clinton-2016-12?r=US&IR=T&IR=T

Hillary Clinton secured nearly 3 million more votes than President-elect Donald Trump in the final popular vote tally, which by Wednesday morning was certified in all 50 states and Washington, DC.

The Democratic presidential nominee ended up with more than 65.84 million votes, compared with the more than 62.97 million ballots cast for the president-elect.

Of course, Trump won the Electoral College and thus the presidency by pulling off narrow wins in traditionally Democratic states like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan, while Clinton ran up higher vote totals than President Barack Obama did in the 2012 election in states like California, Texas, and Arizona.

Clinton's popular vote total fell just short of Obama's 2012 result, by fewer than 75,000 votes. Trump secured the most votes of any Republican presidential candidate in history.

In terms of overall percentage, Trump's 2.1% loss in the popular vote was the third-lowest mark for a victor in the past 49 elections. Trump's share of electoral votes ranked 46th out of 58 elections.

snip


Sanders slams identity politics as Democrats figure out their future

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-democrats-identity-politics-231710

Bernie Sanders said Monday that the path to success for Democrats has to be through more than just identity politics, adding that it’s simply not enough for the party to base its appeals on diversity.

“It’s not good enough for someone to say, ‘I’m a woman! Vote for me!’” No, that’s not good enough. What we need is a woman who has the guts to stand up to Wall Street, to the insurance companies, to the drug companies, to the fossil fuel industry,” the Vermont independent senator and former Democratic presidential candidate said in a not-so-subtle rebuke to Hillary Clinton.

Sanders spoke during a book tour stop in Boston, according to video and a transcript of his answer, and was answering in response to a question about advice for an aspiring politician who wants to become the second Latino senator.


snip

Bernie Sanders still says class is more important than race. He is still wrong

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/22/bernie-sanders-identity-politics-class-race-debate

It appears that in the aftermath of a monumental but nonetheless failed presidential campaign, Bernie Sanders remains most comfortable in the spot that made him a loser: trying to separate class and race.

Sanders has never been wrong about the damaging roles establishment politics and economics play in the lives of millions of Americans. Even so, he’s long struggled with acknowledging that focusing on class alone won’t make this country better for many who are struggling. That the revolution cannot be colorblind if it were to truly make this country better for all of the disenfranchised.

At a speech in Boston on Sunday, the Vermont senator advocated “going beyond identity politics,” declaring, “The working class of this country is being decimated — that’s why Donald Trump won. And what we need now are candidates who stand with those working people, who understand that real median family income has gone down.”

Yes, it has. But Sanders, like the others parading this pedestrian punditry in the aftermath of the news that most white people voted for Donald Trump, is missing the point while continuing to promote the very ideas that sunk him during the primary. He lost many potential voters of color because we know colour-blind economic policies alone will not change certain realities of racism in America. They might “make America great again”, but only for people who have always had it pretty good.

In October, when asked in a New Republic profile how uncomfortable he appeared talking about race, he answered, “OK, see, this is an issue I’m not really – what I don’t want to do is get into me.” When told that it wasn’t about him per se, Sanders said, “It’s a complicated answer. It’s a good question, but I prefer not to get into it right now.”

snip

Why Black Voters Don’t Feel the Bern
Sanders’ debate stumble on race issues and Hillary’s sure-footed answer help explain why she’s getting most of the African-American vote.


http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/03/why-black-voters-dont-feel-the-bern-213707

When it came to most issues at the Democratic debate in Flint Sunday night, Bernie Sanders was his usual crusty, confident self. But when CNN’s Don Lemon asked a seemingly innocuous question—“What racial blind spot do you have?”—the senator from lily-white Vermont stumbled, reaching for an ancient bromide from his long-ago Brooklyn childhood. "When you're white, you don't know what it's like to be living in a ghetto, you don't know what it's like to be poor," Sanders said.

Social media erupted. “He knows that all Black people don't live in ghettos, right?” Jonathan Capehart of The Washington Post tweeted. MSNBC’s Joy Reid was also flummoxed. “Of course, many white Americans know exactly what it's like to ‘live in the ghetto.’ Many, including immigrants have, do and did,” she tweeted. “Most African-Americans are not poor. The AA poverty rate is too high, of course, at about 28%, but that's not most or all.”


Hillary Clinton, by contrast, responded to the same question with a detailed account of her lifelong journey in racial awareness, pushing most of the right buttons. She invoked “the talk” that African-American parents need to have with their kids and white parents don’t--“scared that your sons or daughters, even, could get in trouble for no good reason whatsoever like Sandra Bland and end up dead in a jail in Texas." She talked of spending time with Trayvon Martin’s mother, and how it taught her the need “to tear down the barriers of systemic racism that are in the criminal justice system.” She reminisced about her days as a young law student working for her mentor, Marian Wright Edelman, the founder of the Children’s Defense Fund, who had sent her into the Deep South to expose racial discrimination in schools and in jails during the civil rights era.

The different answers somehow encapsulated what has happened so far in this campaign. Clinton has clobbered Sanders in states, mainly in the South, with large African-American populations, propelling her to what may be an insurmountable lead in delegates. Bottom line, Hillary Clinton has street cred on the racial issue that Bernie Sanders lacks.


snip

jfern

(5,204 posts)
45. Again, it's a divisive lie to claim Bernie only cares about economic issues
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 07:36 AM
Dec 2016

You are attacking progressives by claiming so. He became interested in politics because as a Polish Jew born in the early 1940s, most of his family was murdered in the Holocaust after he was born. The Nazis didn't see his relatives as white. It didn't matter how rich they were, the Nazis killed them all.

 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
46. Again with the blatant misrepresentations, projection and ad hominem
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 08:06 AM
Dec 2016

I never once said Sanders ONLY cares about economics. He just is not my cuppa when it comes to minority rights and concerns, something you seem to have serious issues over. Our base is simply not showing up to vote. I am in NO way saying white people are the slightest bit bad at all as a group, I am half (well more) white myself. Intelligent and fair white people will naturally support our side. But if the Democratic party tries to pander to actual racists and reactionary people we will further alienate an already disenchanted and disenfranchised huge bloc of people. Bernie's dismissive call to end identity politics sounds like a dog whistle to us minority folk.

We need to double, triple, quadruple down on the base,not go chasing some "never coming back" Reagan Democrat racists, rural or otherwise. People like me are the future, we have the demographics on our side, now the party needs to full invest in us, once and for all. We need to concentrate at state and local levels too. If we do not make gains in the 2018 and 2020 state legislatures races, we will not have a chance of getting back the US House before 2032 at the earliest (due to the post-2020 Census redistricting). The US Senate is probably lost to us until 2024, as 2018 is going to be brutal, perhaps the Rethugs go to 60 seats (the map is THAT bad, we have only one shot at a flip, Heller in Nevada, maybe maybe Flake in Arizona, whilst we have 11 to 13 hard, hard races), depending on how Trump and the 'Pugs do over the next 2 years. The 2020 and 2022 Senate map is just not enough if the Repugs have 57 to 61 seat post 2018.

Bernie's way is not the future, and yes I am aware of the deep systemic hole we are in. Women, PoC, LGBTQ don't give a toss about long term economics when you have direct threats from RW racists and xians who want to ERASE us NOW. The Republicans have won with racist white skin colour and fundie xian identity politics. We need to crush their numbers with our own brand on steroids. We have the numbers, but we need to truly instill the urgency of once and for all taking over the country via our majority minority soon-to-come status.


I have other issues with Bernie too, besides the fact he is once again not a Democrat as well. 2 huge reasons why Bernie would have been crushed against Trump in the GE:

Issue 1.

Taxes pure and simple

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/3/25/11293258/tax-plan-calculator-2016

I took the median (NOT average, so no artificially high number due to the 1%'ers blowing up the average) 2015 USA household income 54,462

I set it for a married couple with a child

and this is what you get



Under Bernie they would pay ALMOST 7000 USD MORE per year than under Hillary and 10,000 MORE than Trump

Now I do it for a single person making 25,000



2600 USD MORE per year than Clinton's plan and 4700 USD MORE than under trump


a poor single person 15,000 USD a year



1600 USD MORE under Sanders than Clinton, and almost 2500 USD MORE than under Trump


and finally an upper middle class family

combined household income of 125,000 (and THIS is millions of suburban voters of all races, etc) with multiple children



They would pay 16,500 USD MORE under Bernie than Clinton, and 23 THOUSAND DOLLARS more under Bernie than under Trump


THAT WOULD HAVE CRUSHED HIM IN THE GENERAL

No one can ever convince otherwise, those are a huge difference dollar-wise that the Rethugs would have rammed down the American collective gullet.




Issue 2.

He falsely labels himself a "Democratic Socialist"


This may seem a bit pedantic, BUT is ultimately massive in terms of impacting and framing the entire concept of the "left" in the United States.

Bernie SELF-LABELS himself as a democratic socialist. I go crazy when I see this, because he is NOT a democratic socialist and it automatically feeds the American culture's knee jerk, reactionary, stupid, thuggish tendency to equate communism with socialism through a totally sloppy, outdated Cold War prism. This gives every reactionary Rethug a huge target to blow him out of the water. This also feeds bullshit myths in the USA that everything that works for a democratic social good is by definition "commie" or "socialist." It is utterly false and self-defeating on a grand scale. It literally has corrupted and perverted almost all right-v-left framing of all political discourse in America.

I explain what I mean by a mislabel by cheating a bit and using that bane of serious academic rigour, Wikipedia. I will use wikipedia because it neatly describes EXACTLY what I am saying.

Bernie is a practitioner of SOCIAL DEMOCRACY, so he is a social democrat, so to speak, similar in many aspects to Sweden and other countries in the Nordic Model. He does NOT espouse a democratic form of socialism, thus he is NOT a democratic socialist.


Democratic socialism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

Not to be confused with social democracy.

Democratic socialism is a political ideology that advocates political democracy alongside social ownership of the means of production, often with an emphasis on democratic management of enterprises within a socialist economic system. The term "democratic socialism" is sometimes used synonymously with "socialism"; the adjective "democratic" is often added to distinguish it from the Marxist–Leninist brand of socialism, which is widely viewed as being non-democratic in practice. Democratic socialism is also sometimes used as a synonym for Social Democracy, although many say this is misleading as democratic socialism advocates social ownership of the means of production, whereas social democracy does not.

Democratic socialism is distinguished from both the Soviet model of centralized socialism and from social democracy, where "social democracy" refers to support for political democracy, nationalization of key industries, and a welfare state. The distinction with the former is made on the basis of the authoritarian form of government and centralized economic system that emerged in the Soviet Union during the 20th century, while the distinction with the latter is made on the basis that democratic socialism is committed to systemic transformation of the economy while social democracy is not. That is, whereas social democrats only seek to "humanize" capitalism through state intervention, democratic socialists see capitalism as inherently incompatible with the democratic values of liberty, equality and solidarity; and believe that the issues inherent to capitalism can only be solved by superseding private ownership with some form of social ownership. Ultimately democratic socialists believe that reforms aimed at addressing the economic contradictions of capitalism will only cause more problems to emerge elsewhere in the economy, that capitalism can never be sufficiently "humanized", and that it must therefore ultimately be replaced with socialism.

Democratic socialism is not specifically revolutionary or reformist, as many types of democratic socialism can fall into either category, with some forms overlapping with social democracy, supporting reforms within capitalism as a prelude to the establishment of socialism. Some forms of democratic socialism accept social democratic reformism to gradually convert the capitalist economy to a socialist one using pre-existing democratic institutions, while other forms are revolutionary in their political orientation and advocate for the overthrow of the bourgeoisie and the transformation of the capitalist economy to a socialist economy.


snip



Social democracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy; and a policy regime involving collective bargaining arrangements, a commitment to representative democracy, measures for income redistribution, regulation of the economy in the general interest and welfare state provisions. Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes; and is often associated with the set of socioeconomic policies that became prominent in Northern and Western Europe—particularly the Nordic model in the Nordic countries—during the latter half of the 20th century.

Social democracy originated as a political ideology that advocated an evolutionary and peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism using established political processes in contrast to the revolutionary approach to transition associated with orthodox Marxism. In the early post-war era in Western Europe, social democratic parties rejected the Stalinist political and economic model then current in the Soviet Union, committing themselves either to an alternate path to socialism or to a compromise between capitalism and socialism. In this period, social democrats embraced a mixed economy based on the predominance of private property, with only a minority of essential utilities and public services under public ownership. As a result, social democracy became associated with Keynesian economics, state interventionism, and the welfare state, while abandoning the prior goal of replacing the capitalist system (factor markets, private property and wage labor) with a qualitatively different socialist economic system.

Modern social democracy is characterized by a commitment to policies aimed at curbing inequality, oppression of underprivileged groups, and poverty; including support for universally accessible public services like care for the elderly, child care, education, health care, and workers' compensation. The social democratic movement also has strong connections with the labour movement and trade unions, and is supportive of collective bargaining rights for workers as well as measures to extend democratic decision-making beyond politics into the economic sphere in the form of co-determination for employees and other economic stakeholders.

snip


Bernie Sanders does NOT want to replace all private ownership of the means of production with government or social ownership! Therefore he fundamentally is NOT a Socialist.


He is committing political suicide in a reactionary capitalistic country like America by calling himself a democratic socialist. It is MADDENING to me, and almost all my fellow Europeans I know. The actual socialists, REAL socialists, I know shake their heads when he labels himself a socialist, especially when he is/was trying to win national office in RW red-baiting USA where 90 plus percent of the population doesn't even know the difference between communism and democrat socialism.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
47. That Vox calculator is a total fraud.
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 08:18 AM
Dec 2016

Debunking here.
http://datatitian.com/why-voxs-numbers-for-bernie-sanderss-tax-plans-are-so-wrong/

Really, telling me that he's unelectable because of lying propaganda? Pretty pathetic that you're still bringing that up now that ObamaCare premiums just increased an average of 22% for next year.

And really, you seem to keep implying that Bernie doesn't care about minorities. What the heck was he doing here, then?

[img][/img]

Or here?

[img]?cache=edqrjkocxb[/img]

 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
48. weak sauce, a hyper-technical analysis of the tax plan that would have been deluged by the RW hit
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 08:31 AM
Dec 2016

machine, 2 pics that do NOTHING (other than patronise) to refute a single thing I said (I NEVER said he did not care about minorities, I said he doesn't deal with the issue in such a way to garner our votes in sufficient numbers to WIN, as evidenced by the Democratic primaries, let alone the GE) and a RW smear of Obamacare. Plus you did not address in the slightest Bernie's false and disastrous (election-wise in reactionary red-baiting America) self-labeling as a socialist.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
50. The Cold War ended 25 years ago, red-baiting isn't going to work the way it would have
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 08:41 AM
Dec 2016

during the Cold war. And he's a democratic socialist, which is most certainly not some authoritarian communist.

Anyways, you seem perfectly fine with the party throwing progressives under the bus. 3rd way identity politics gave us President Donald Trump, a Congress that stayed Republican, and the Democrats in control of only around 6 state governments (state legislature plus governor). That's possibly the worst ever, and certainly the worst since the Great Depression. Maybe it's time to actually nominate someone progressive. And the idea that 3rd way identity politics actually cares more about minority groups than progressives is totally absurd. Bernie's supporters were younger, and younger people tend to be less racist, sexist, and homophobic than older people.

As for the general election, basically every poll since the primaries started had Bernie doing better in the general election than Hillary.

 

Grey Lemercier

(1,429 posts)
51. He is NOT a democratic socialist, ffs
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 08:53 AM
Dec 2016

Also, don't come to me with homilies about how red-baiting is passė in good old reactionary America. The zeitgeist betrays you instantly. A significant minority in the bloody country are still fighting the goddamn Civil War, buy-bulls in hand.

You are also a broken clock with this inane, non-existent "3rd-way identity politics" claptrap.

Finally, if you think Hillary was not progressive you are past the point of rationality.

 

RBInMaine

(13,570 posts)
5. MANY white working class folks voted for Obama. This is just true. And Bernie is not trying to
Fri Dec 23, 2016, 08:25 PM
Dec 2016

convert hopeless racists. You are WRONG in assuming all white working class people are racist. In fact, that is a DISGUSTING and SHAMEFUL thing to think let alone say.

boston bean

(36,186 posts)
38. What people always seem to gloss over is every single white person and every other
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 04:25 AM
Dec 2016

But mostly white, did vote for a racist sexist homophobic POS. What that says about them??? Well we can all make our own determinations.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
42. We sure can
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 05:05 AM
Dec 2016

My thing is this; why all the effort to defend Trump voters? It's almost like they feel guilty or they voted for him

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
9. The lie that Trump won because of economic populism...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 02:00 PM
Dec 2016

...will persist as long and as effectively as the lie that Brexiter's voted because of economic autonomy.

A very long time.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
27. Far more stayed home than switched.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:59 PM
Dec 2016
http://www.forbes.com/sites/omribenshahar/2016/11/17/the-non-voters-who-decided-the-election-trump-won-because-of-lower-democratic-turnout/#894c1d240a11

And voter suppression and depression should not be dismissed as part of the reason why.

Trump gets 10k more white votes than Romney in a city, the story is that somehow we are post racist, with no recognition that Clinton got 300k less votes than Obama.

There was a concerted effort to depress the vote, make Clinton uninspiring, scandal ridden bullshit from emails to hacked DNC to everything under the sun.

And in many areas of poverty the vote was suppressed likely in part due to stricter voter laws (and probably a mix of misinformation and depression).

jalan48

(13,797 posts)
15. Looks like not everyone agrees with your assessment of the white working class.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 04:30 PM
Dec 2016

"They’re all the people I grew up with. They’re their kids. And they’re not racist. They’re not sexist. But we didn’t talk to them."
— Joe Biden, vice president

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-biden-interview-20161222-story.html

JHan

(10,173 posts)
21. I expect Joe to say that, but he of all people should know..
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:46 PM
Dec 2016

that we've been seeing losses since 2010. No one ever wants to think they live with racists or sexists- we always think the best of people we know. Racists can also be good nurturers and great neighbors.

Democratic leaders shouldn't be watering down the reasons millions were attracted to Donald's divisive platform this year.

To think that Hillary, so often accused of being manufactured, is the only one to call it for what it was this year - "deplorable" . And she only meant half of his supporters.

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
29. Racism is a real, yet still one of several, reasons why people voted for snifler.
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 06:11 AM
Dec 2016

And whem you point out the racist supporters, a chunk of conservatives think the racism charges are trumped up and fake, a "librul media" lie. So on top of the actual racists, you got rethugs in denial about racism. That makes it a lot harder to peel off voters but it never hurts to try

 

jack_krass

(1,009 posts)
56. Yah, Joe's obviously a racist. Or is it sexists, maybe both. And also probably not a "real Democrat"
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:14 AM
Dec 2016
 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
34. HRC won the popular vote, BS would have won the popular vote.
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 08:32 PM
Dec 2016

So your point is moot. Until we get MORE people out to vote, we will always be clinging on for dear life.

 

jack_krass

(1,009 posts)
55. "Racist white Americans" are a statistically insignificant voting block. What Sanders, or successor
Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:12 AM
Dec 2016

WILL attemt to do(against much resistance from those who should be on our side), is get ALL working people , including the Reagan Democrat types, who mostly NOT RACIST, voting for us again.

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»Bernie Sanders could not,...