Is Prism Really a Scandal? - by Alan M. Dershowitz

[DonViejo]

by Alan M. Dershowitz Jun 9, 2013 4:45 AM EDT

Pundits are ranting about it, but what we really need is a discussion about privacy vs. security.

Half a century ago, the great American historian Richard Hofstadter wrote about “the paranoid style in American politics.” He discussed the influence of conspiracy theories and extremism in our collective mindset.

Since that time, two phenomena have become apparent. The first is that we may indeed have much to be paranoid about. Or put another way, “Even paranoids have real enemies.” Watergate, and the Nixon Administration in general, demonstrated even to the least paranoid among us that government officials are fully capable of misusing the IRS against political enemies, breaking into psychiatric records of perceived traitors, burglarizing the political opposition, and all other manner of dirty tricks that cross the line from politics as usual to felonies.

The second phenomenon is that the first phenomenon has caused many Americans to become even more paranoid, to seek conspiracies where none exist, to confuse overzealousness with evil intentions, and to assume malevolence rather than incompetence or laziness. The reality is that over the past 50 years, while we have somewhat less to be paranoid about, the paranoid streak in American politics has broadened considerably.

The most recent revelations regarding the mining of phone and internet data provide a case in point. The initial revelation was made by a man named Glenn Greenwald, who wrote about them in the Guardian and who has been all over the media taking a victory lap. Greenwald is the personification of the paranoid streak in American politics. He is more of an ideologue than a reporter. He has long been an apologist for terrorism—a word he believes serves only as an excuse for violence and oppression by America and its allies. He has pushed false stories that his paper was forced to backpedal on, such as an AP report blaming the incendiary video “The Innocence of Islam” on an Israeli Jew living in California. He is Chomsky-like in his willingness to blame most of the world’s ills on the United States, Israel, the Obama Administration and liberals who do not buy into his radical worldview. He viciously opposed Elena Kagan’s nomination to the Supreme Court. Greenwald would not understand the word “nuance” if he tripped over it, which he often does.

full article
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/09/is-prism-really-a-scandal.html

[pinto]

1. Dershowitz has a point, fwiw -

So let the debate begin, but don’t let it be dominated by the extremes or fueled by paranoia. We need reform, not revolution—improvement, not impeachment.

[Cooley Hurd]

2. Let's talk about Alan "Torture's Okay By Me" Dershowitz, shall we?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz#Views_on_torture

Following the September 11, 2001 attacks, Dershowitz published an article in The San Francisco Chronicle entitled "Want to Torture? Get a Warrant," in which he advocated the issuance of warrants permitting the torture of terrorism suspects, if there were an "absolute need to obtain immediate information in order to save lives coupled with probable cause that the suspect had such information and is unwilling to reveal it." He argued that authorities should be permitted to use non-lethal torture in a "ticking time bomb scenario," and that it would be less destructive to the rule of law to regulate the process than to leave it to the discretion of individual law-enforcement agents. He favors preventing the government from prosecuting the subject of torture based on information revealed during such an interrogation. The "ticking time bomb scenario" is the subject of a play, The Dershowitz Protocol, by Canadian author Robert Fothergill, in which the American government has established a protocol of "intensified interrogation" for terrorist suspects.

William F. Schulz, Executive Director of the U.S. section of Amnesty International, found Dershowitz's ticking-bomb scenario unrealistic because, he argued, it would require that "the authorities know that a bomb has been planted somewhere; know it is about to go off; know that the suspect in their custody has the information they need to stop it; know that the suspect will yield that information accurately in a matter of minutes if subjected to torture; and know that there is no other way to obtain it." James Bamford of The Washington Post described one of the practices recommended by Dershowitz—the "sterilized needle being shoved under the fingernails"—as "chillingly Nazi-like."

[Hell Hath No Fury]

13. Using Dersh's opinion to advance your own -

is some crazy-ass shit.

[Cooley Hurd]

14. Hardly. It's important to put Dershowitz into context by using his own quotes...

He's a pro-torture dickhead.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

15. I meant the OP --

not you. Dersh's word is mud with me, for the very reason you stated.

[Cooley Hurd]

16. Oh!

Sorry about that.

[BeyondGeography]

3. Americans are the most indiscreet people on earth

It's not even close. Ask any foreigner what's most striking about us and many will say how eager we are to talk about ourselves. No accident then that we created the technological means by which to facilitate this strange and uniquely American need.

But personal security trumps the right to privacy in any hierarchy of need, so Dershowitz has a point (it happens). Whether Americans get just how far out there they are on the global disclosure continuum and what that means for their privacy is another matter.

[Anymouse]

4. Sorry, no.

Our right to privacy as outlined by the IV Amendment trumps any sense the government has of "security." We have an inalienable right to be secure in our persons and communications, except of course where the government says we don't.
That uniquely-American behaviour comes from the protections granted under the Constitution to prevent the government from harassing us for our beliefs, speech, or associations.
That will change.

[BeyondGeography]

5. Probably not as much as you'd like

In a 2011 poll by The Associated Press and the NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, 54 percent of those surveyed felt protecting citizens' rights and freedoms should be a higher priority for the government than keeping people safe from terrorists. At the same time, 64 percent said it was sometimes necessary to sacrifice some rights and freedoms to fight terrorism.

http://www.vindy.com/news/2013/jun/08/line-between-privacy-and-security-where-do-we-want/

People love to have it both ways.

[okaawhatever]

6. We aren't discussing what Prism or the phone logs really are. We keep hearing about how

the government is spying on us. How they can "watch our thoughts form with every keystroke." The problem is, that's not what is happening nor is it what they were designed for. These programs aren't used within the borders on American citizens. The argument is the gov't now has the right to listen in on everything, etc etc. Yes, the gov't can listen to our calls, but it would be illegal. The gov't has always had the technology to spy on us. It's whether they do it or not and under what circumstances. This whole disclosure was hype and didn't reveal the programs for what they really are. Did they mention how they needed warrants if American citizens were involved?

[Bonobo]

7. Let's listen to torture man! Yeah! nt

[Enrique]

8. "let's have a discussion..."

"...but we're not going to tell you anything about it".

[persistent]

9. Take a position you can't defend....

Go ahead Alan.
Talk Loud.

Rhetoric v Chomsky.
Seen it before. You had you ass ever so politely, methodically handed to you.

Time to see it again?

I'm Listening...

Full Disclosure: I may or may not be some government agent.

Peace to All.

[hrmjustin]

18. Welcome to DU my friend!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

10. Is "Prism" is really a scandal? Yes, it is when the black Muslim communist from Kenya is president.

[backscatter712]

11. Dershowitz is a neo-con.

Why would any self-respecting person who calls himself or herself a Democrat respect this authoritarian fuckwit?

[Arkana]

12. Greenwald has been very hit-or-miss.

He seems to be unapologetically liberal, and I praise him for that, I really do, and he recognizes that Israel is not the paragon of virtue we make it out to be.

But he is almost fanatical in his willingness to ascribe sinister motives to the current administration's actions, and it's kind of creepy.

[stevenleser]

17. In this case, he totally missed it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022981244

[geek tragedy]

19. Is Dershowitz a torture-loving douchenozzle? nt