NO WAYS?.....

[revmclaren]

So... I keep reading comments from some DUers that effectively state  ' If I don't have the perfect Democratic candidate for president in my perfectly progressive opinion when the Democratic primaries are decided by actual Democratic voters, I will refuse to vote or will write in any old name of the touted Progressive flavor of the day that floats my boat'. Does anyone here really, in any way, shape or form, think that I or any other long term Democrat (who in my case has voted Democrat in every election since I was blessed with the chance to vote as an adult and I'm 55) should take any of the words of these Non-voters seriously? "But I vote my conscience" I keep reading over and over like a broken record. Well, as has been seen vividly and mercilessly, the Republicans who want to take away your right to vote (the right you want to throw away so easily), make marriage equality a crime, and keep women in there god- appointed place DON'T HAVE ANY CONSCIENCE!  They love 'Democrats' who waste their votes. It helps them win.
And I keep reading posts from these same individuals and those who hang on their every word all about the evil 'third ways'. If you don't have the same core beliefs and agendas as these posters, you are 'third way'. If you don't have the same hero worship as them, you are a 'third way'. Etc, etc, etc... 

Well, I have come up with my own name for these very special posters. 

I like to call these non-voting entities and those that support them 'NO WAYS'.

NO WAY will your vote have any meaning and will be wasted (which I find morally reprehensible since thousand die for the right to vote yearly worldwide and have fought and died for voting rights in this countrys own past, a right which you blithely throw away like a rancid tuna sandwich). 

NO WAY should i or any Democrat take you in the least bit seriously now or in the future since democrats vote for change, they don't stomp their feet and pout and think that this will miraculously bring about change.

NO WAY will I take ANY post you write seriously after you make such an
unthinking statement about such an important part of our society that, as i have stated already, millions in this country alone have fought for over the last 200 plus years. It truly boggles the mind.

You are a NO WAY to me and that is how I will think of you when i read future 'i wont vote' posts.
And  no... I won't put you on ignore because that is what you want. Only your personal coffee clatch for you. Only the usual recs and encouragement. No, I want to read your posts because it drives me even harder to get out the vote. Every time I read a bit of nonsense about how not voting is making a statement, I will approach a co worker or even a stranger and encourage them to vote. As I said, it pushes me to GOTV.
As a long time lurker who has never found a reason to post before, I now have good reason. The future of our country and our families. I have read some inane and disturbing things on DU, but I just cant let this go without stating what's on my mind. 
Any one else think these these posters deserve the title of NO WAYS! If not explain why to me. I really do want to know why I should respect anything these posters have to say.

I know that I'm going to start the fur flying on this one but I just cannot ignore this any longer. Too much is at stake.

Oh, and if I don't respond right away to a comment, it's not because this is a hit and run post, I work in a National park and I use a friends Internet, mostly evenings unless home to visit family so give me time.

Signed... A proud Democrat who WILL vote for the Democratic primary winner. I have   2 daughters, a sister, and dozens of female relatives and friends who deserve equal rights and an autistic son who deserves a safe and proud place in this country.

GOTV.

[1StrongBlackMan]

1. But see ...

Well, as has been seen vividly and mercilessly, the Republicans who want to take away your right to vote (the right you want to throw away so easily), make marriage equality a crime, and keep women in there god- appointed place DON'T HAVE ANY CONSCIENCE!

None of these traditional Democratic values matter to the group that you refer to as "No Ways."

Stick around, long enough, and you will see that group is overwhelmingly white (i.e., no personal voter disenfranchisement issue), straight (i.e., no personal investment in marriage equality), and male (i.e., no personal investment in gender equality).

Their only concern is income equality ... (translated: put more money in my pocket) and any benefit accruing to the above groups(i.e., the Democratic base) is merely coincidental.

[Agnosticsherbet]

2. Had not thought of it this way.

I think you are right.

[jeff47]

13. Could you list specific actions your preferred candidate has taken to address those issues?

Not speeches, but specific actions, like votes or bills introduced to address voter disenfranchisement, marriage equality or gender equality?

[1StrongBlackMan]

14. I don't understand what you are asking ...

Everyone knows (or should know) there are already Bills drafted to address each of these issues ... and further, these issues are being litigated. So you can't be asking that?

Is this a preliminary step before saying, "I (this straight, white, male) support(s) all of them ... What more do you want?"

If so, I DO have an answer ...

[jeff47]

15. It isn't that hard to understand.

Speeches are easy - you can say anything you want to appeal to anyone you want.

Actions are harder. You have to write down your intent in a bill, or you have to have your vote officially recorded.

(Co-sponsoring is kinda in the middle. Sometimes it's a stand, and sometimes it's joining the pack after others took a stand)

People saying Warren is good on income inequality can point to multiple bills she has proposed, and multiple votes she has cast.

If your candidate is great on the issues you cited, then there should be a lengthy record of actions backing that up.

[1StrongBlackMan]

17. Yes ...

That was difficult to understand ... And this doesn't make it any clearer.

I have pointed to the fact that there are specific Bills and specific case litigating each of these issues.

Then, you ask me about my candidate? I do not have a candidate ... yet; nor, do I have (or expect to have) an anti-candidate.

People saying Warren is good on income inequality can point to multiple bills she has proposed, and multiple votes she has cast.

Speaking of Elizabeth Warren and the "multiple bills she has proposed", though I love her grit on economic issues ... how about going to here:

https://www.congress.gov/member/elizabeth-warren/W000817grit

and doing a "Ctrl-F" and enter any variation of terms descriptive of the issues above ...

[leftofcool]

26. Nailed it!

[NanceGreggs]

3. Welcome to DU.

I see you have already become acquainted with the Label-Maker wielders - and "Third Way" has always been their label-of-choice for anyone who doesn't buy into the group think they are addicted to.

"No Ways" is a perfect descriptor. And they will explain to you - at length - why their self-declared "principles" are far more important than keeping a Republican out of the WH.

[world wide wally]

4. Just keep this in mind: Republicans don't want to keep you from voting….

They just want to keep you from voting Democratic

[NBachers]

5. Welcome, revmclaren, and I like your post. I'm looking forward to reading more from you.

I encourage you to keep encouraging everyone to elect Democrats.

What a novel concept

[revmclaren]

33. Thank you.

I know... Wanting to encourage people to vote Democratic on a Democratic forum. Who would ever have thought....


But of course, many seem to have their own scale of who is an 'actual' Democrat. I'm working on a chart based loosely on the Bush era terror level chart that may make those individual's just giddy. You know...green would be Sanders, blue would be Warren and of course for all the 'Hillery is the Antichrist fans... fire engine red! I know, Sanders isn't a Democrat yet but he still has time to throw away his socialist values just for votes. Would be sad. I do respect him as he is.

Of course I'm joking about the chart..or am I ?

[NBachers]

34. I think the Hillary one needs a set of revolving red emergency beacons and "woop" "woop" "woop" gifs

[blkmusclmachine]

6. Whatever.

[Martin Eden]

7. WAY?

Maybe I don't read enough threads in DU, because I haven't seen a lot of:
"comments from some DUers that effectively state ' If I don't have the perfect Democratic candidate for president in my perfectly progressive opinion when the Democratic primaries are decided by actual Democratic voters, I will refuse to vote or will write in any old name of the touted Progressive flavor of the day that floats my boat'."

Could you provide provide several specific examples (quotes) where DUers state they won't vote for the Democratic nominee if he/she isn't a perfect progressive?

[apnu]

9. Come on! This stuff is everywhere! Remember the PUMAs? (nt)

[Martin Eden]

11. Should be easy to find specific examples with quotes, then

Absent that, the OP is a strawman argument.

I've seen dozens of posts explaining why the Democratic Party and our country needs a more progressive president who better represents the 99%, but I honestly cannot recall anyone stating that only a "perfect" candidate totally in sync with all their political opinions would get their vote in the general election.

Not to say a post like that doesn't exist, but I haven't seen it.

One thing I do agree with is the need to GOTV for Democratic nominees across the board in the general election -- and I think the best way to do that is with candidates people are enthusiastic to vote FOR rather than just voting AGAINST the Republican.

[Sheepshank]

16. take a gander through this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6415235

one thread with lots of examples.

You may have chosen not to read the dozens of similar posts of the last few months. Asking others to do your homeowork for you on this thread is exactly the kind of stuff that proves the apathy. Can't be bothered to look around, yet comment on a topic as if if never happened.

[Martin Eden]

18. I took a gander at that thread when it came out, and I just read it again.

I see only 1 example in the 146 replies in that thread that comes close to supporting the premise of the OP in this thread.

It was post #112:

I will no longer vote for the lesser of two evils. I'm too old to waste my vote any longer. I will vote for the best candidate for the Country regardless of party. I do know it won't be the Republican and if Clinton is the Democrat, I know it won't be the Democrat either.

The DUer named A Simple Game who wrote that didn't say he would only vote for a "perfect candidate" but he was the only one I found who stated he would not vote for the Dem if it was Hillary. You and the OP assert a prevalence of progressive DUers vowing not to vote for the Dem candidate, but the thread you provided as an example to bolster that argument falls laughably short of making your point. If anything, it proves you don't know what you're talking about.

If you can find others in that thread, by all means provide an actual quote like I just did. I read through it fairly quickly, and it's possible I may have missed one.

However, I think it's much more likely you have difficulty understanding language and the meaning of words. That thread was mostly an argument about why the Dems lost the 2010 midterms, with the OP accusing progressives of staying home. What little factual evidence posted in the thread was by progressives who demonstrated they weren't the ones who failed to vote for the Democratic candidates. You apparently think criticism of centrist Democratic politicians and the Party establishment in general is the same as not voting.

You are mistaken, and so is the OP in this thread.

[QuestionAlways]

24. I can not count the number of times I have seen

people post here that they will never vote for Hillary Clinton

[Martin Eden]

31. I counted 1, in 146 replies, in the thread cited as evidence. n/t

[Scuba]

8. Funny, I've been here for years and have never seen a post demanding a "perfect" candidate.

Altough I've seen many posts critical of so-called Democrats who support policies typically associated with the Republican party. Stuff like the IWR, Wall Street deregulation, the TPP, more H1B Visas, etc.

If a poster is unhappy with a so-called Democrat who supports these things, that's a long, long ways from demanding a "perfect" candidate.

[840high]

29. ...^ that

[imthevicar]

10. Herrah!

[jeff47]

12. THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL YOU DO WHAT I SAY!!!

Is probably not the best campaign strategy.

Fundamentally, it is the job of the candidate to earn votes. Candidates are not entitled to votes just because of the letter after their name. If a candidate can't get people on the left to vote for them, that is the candidate's fault.

Just ask Al Gore. He's repeatedly said he ran a terrible campaign in 2000, not "Fucking Nader voters!".

[QuestionAlways]

25. But if it were not for the Nader voters, Al Gore would have won

There would be no question of who won FL, and the SC could never give it to Bush.

[revmclaren]

32. If you want the definition of a perfect politician...

Nader is it! He played both sides perfectly... Getting the respect and votes of many democratic voters that he inticed with the ' Bush and Gore are the same' mem while pocketing the money from GOP backed lobbyists as he did it. And he still has the support of thousands of voters who still think they did a great and noble thing voting for him. As I said... The perfect polititian! Don't Blame him for the added bush years. He was only doing what he does best.

[jeff47]

36. No. Again, candidates are not entitled to votes.

No Nader does not mean those votes go to Gore. Those people could have stayed home, or voted Green, or a host of other options.

Gore needed to earn votes, and he didn't earn enough.

IMO, Instant Runoff Voting would be a wonderful way to fix this. But we don't have that.

[Jim Lane]

19. You're overreacting. Most of them will relent by Election Day.

Here's a common pattern in races (at all levels) where there's a strong but still hopeless third-party candidate: The candidate shows some support in the polls, say around 12%, for most of the campaign, but then starts sliding in October. He or she hits 6% in the last pre-election poll and actually winds up with 3% of the vote.

What happens is that reality sets in. People who dislike both major-party candidates realize that one of them will win, so they hold their noses and vote for the one who's less objectionable. We saw this on the right in 2012, when Freepers and the like started out saying that they'd never vote for a RINO like Romney. As Election Day neared, however, they realized that Romney was the only alternative to the Muslim socialist Kenyan impostor, so they fell in line and voted for the RINO.

I completely agree with the people who point out Hillary Clinton's serious deficiencies. I completely agree with them that someone else should be our nominee. My prediction, though, is that, regardless of how belligerently they talk now, the vast majority of them will join me in the general election in holding our noses and voting for Clinton.

[revmclaren]

30. I hope so...

Clinton is far from the perfect candidate.... For some an evil that they cannot reconcile in their minds. But too much is at stake to let any of the republican candidates even get close to occupying the Whitehouse. Many seem to think this is a game... Stop the Hillory, spin the wheel and suddenly a perfect candidate will pop out from behind curtain number 2. But it's no game. This is literally life and death for many. there are actual laws being written to harm or even kill people who these fiends feel upset their perfect political, sexual, and religious view of the world. Scary S$&T!

[Corey_Baker08]

20. Great Post! Those Who Don't Vote 4 The Democratic Nominee Are Enabling A Republican Victory!

[Doctor_J]

22. And those who vote for a turd way dem are enabling a corporate conservative

government.

So?

[Corey_Baker08]

37. I Would Rather Have A Corporist Democrat Than A Republican...

At least a so called turd way Democrat will ensure ObamaCare is not repealed, they will work to raise the minimum wage, they will not appoint do nothing Attorney General's, they will not abolish the EPA, The Department of Education, They will not put Social Security into the stock market, they will NOT APPOINT JUSTICES TO THE SUPREME COURT THAT WOULD OVERTURN ROE V WADE, THEY WILL NOT APPOINT JUSTICES WHOS FIRST PRIORITY IS TO GUT THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, AS WELL AS THE MANY MANY CASES THAT HAVE BEEN DECIDED BY THE SUPREME COURT & MANY MORE CASES THAT ARE SURE TO BE ON THEIR DOCKETS DURING THE NEXT PRESIDENTS TERM...THIS I KNOW, THIS I AM SURE OF...

CAN U PROMISE ME THAT THE REPUBLICAN YOU WILL HELP ELECT BY NOT VOTING FOR THE DEM NOMINEE WILL DO THE SAME? NO YOU CAN'T & YOU WON'T BECAUSE YOU KNOW THESE ITEMS ARE AT THE TOP OF THEIR LIST...

PLEASE STOP PRETENDING LIKE ANY REPUBLICAN WOULD BE A BETTER PRESIDENT THAN WHAT YOU REFER TO AS A CORPORATE DEMOCRAT...

BTW WHILE SOME ON DU AGREE WITH YOUR VIEW THE HUNDREDS OF DU'ers THAT DO AGREE WITH YOUR POINT OF VIEW ARE JUST THAT HUNDREDS, WHILE MILLIONS OF DEMOCRATS LIKE MYSELF WHOLEHEARTEDLY DISAGREE WITH YOUR POINT OF VIEW. IN FACT WE HAVE A TERM FOR SO CALLED 'DEMOCRATS' LIKE YOU, REPUBLICAN VICTORY ENABLERS...

[LiberalElite]

40. Your caps lock needs repair nt

[revmclaren]

28. Many don't see it that way

And arguing with them is almost like talking to a brick wall but at least a brick wall won't ridicule you for your political views.

[LiberalElite]

21. Look -

I'll vote for HRC if I have to, ok? I just wish there would be someone who really represents me some day before I die. She is not it, but lesser of two evils blah blah blah. I get it.
Sign me, not so proud Democrat.

[Doctor_J]

23. almost everyone at du will, but the vanity posts must go on

[revmclaren]

27. I understand completely.

I wish there were more choices that could actually win a primary. Most have waited too long to make a good run at it. And one... Warren has stated she won't run. Wish she would but I respect her more for keeping her word.

[revmclaren]

35. Well, I have used up my Internet time for tonight

And have kept my coworker up too late. The stars are bright over the peaks and my bed awates. Will be back on late tomorrow to reply more. Peace to everyone and a good night.

[revmclaren]

38. Seeing more 'No Way' replies popping up

on DU. Bookmarking pages since we have a few here who still say that no DUers have stated they won't vote if the wrong candidate wins the primaries. Hats off to those who state that they will hold their noses or control their nausea and still vote the winner. They know what's at stake.

[Persondem]

39. Nice post. Thank you for writing.

I have seen and tried to counter some absolutely ridiculous slams against HRC. More than One DU-er has blamed her for NAFTA. One tried to link her to some nefarious Keystone XL conspiracy through some crazy six degrees of separation poster. She is getting blamed for TPP when she has had zero to do with the negotiations for years.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

41. Good post

Deserves a kick