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This message was self-deleted by its author (bigtree) on Mon Jul 6, 2015, 08:32 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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Reply This message was self-deleted by its author (Original post)
bigtree Jun 2015 OP
MADem Jun 2015 #1
Cha Jun 2015 #8
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #140
KittyWampus Jun 2015 #161
George II Jun 2015 #173
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #176
George II Jun 2015 #185
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #193
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #197
Blue_In_AK Jun 2015 #206
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #207
Blue_In_AK Jun 2015 #208
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #209
Blue_In_AK Jun 2015 #212
Ken Burch Jul 2015 #237
Ken Burch Jul 2015 #238
appalachiablue Jul 2015 #239
Number23 Jun 2015 #194
Cha Jun 2015 #236
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #196
MADem Jun 2015 #201
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #204
MADem Jun 2015 #211
Fumesucker Jun 2015 #2
bigtree Jun 2015 #3
madfloridian Jun 2015 #4
bigtree Jun 2015 #5
madfloridian Jun 2015 #6
bigtree Jun 2015 #14
Ed Suspicious Jun 2015 #49
bigtree Jun 2015 #54
Bonobo Jun 2015 #63
bigtree Jun 2015 #69
Bonobo Jun 2015 #72
bigtree Jun 2015 #75
Bonobo Jun 2015 #78
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #113
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #73
bigtree Jun 2015 #77
sgtbenobo Jun 2015 #101
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #110
aspirant Jun 2015 #114
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #138
kath Jun 2015 #168
HERVEPA Jun 2015 #203
bigtree Jun 2015 #215
HERVEPA Jun 2015 #217
bigtree Jun 2015 #218
dsc Jun 2015 #7
madfloridian Jun 2015 #10
dsc Jun 2015 #11
stevenleser Jun 2015 #70
AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #103
Cali_Democrat Jun 2015 #12
AnnetteJacobs Jun 2015 #100
Cali_Democrat Jun 2015 #104
stevenleser Jun 2015 #166
appalachiablue Jul 2015 #242
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #57
stevenleser Jun 2015 #167
appalachiablue Jul 2015 #240
Cha Jun 2015 #9
dsc Jun 2015 #13
Cha Jun 2015 #15
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #19
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #198
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #133
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #122
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #16
bigtree Jun 2015 #17
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #21
bigtree Jun 2015 #25
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #61
Cha Jun 2015 #99
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #121
Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2015 #169
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #183
dsc Jun 2015 #18
bigtree Jun 2015 #22
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #24
bigtree Jun 2015 #26
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #23
bigtree Jun 2015 #27
dsc Jun 2015 #28
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #55
dsc Jun 2015 #71
kenfrequed Jun 2015 #229
kath Jun 2015 #170
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #199
dsc Jun 2015 #202
aspirant Jun 2015 #20
Cha Jun 2015 #98
aspirant Jun 2015 #105
Cha Jun 2015 #107
aspirant Jun 2015 #111
Cha Jun 2015 #115
aspirant Jun 2015 #117
Cha Jun 2015 #119
aspirant Jun 2015 #123
Cha Jun 2015 #125
aspirant Jun 2015 #129
Cha Jun 2015 #132
aspirant Jun 2015 #136
Cha Jun 2015 #143
aspirant Jun 2015 #145
Cha Jun 2015 #148
mcar Jun 2015 #186
Cha Jun 2015 #190
mcar Jun 2015 #191
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #142
Cha Jun 2015 #144
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #146
kath Jun 2015 #172
appalachiablue Jul 2015 #241
zappaman Jun 2015 #175
Cha Jun 2015 #189
stevenleser Jun 2015 #162
aspirant Jun 2015 #188
stevenleser Jun 2015 #230
aspirant Jun 2015 #231
stevenleser Jun 2015 #232
aspirant Jun 2015 #233
stevenleser Jun 2015 #234
aspirant Jun 2015 #235
BainsBane Jun 2015 #149
aspirant Jun 2015 #187
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #200
aspirant Jun 2015 #214
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #216
aspirant Jun 2015 #219
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #220
aspirant Jun 2015 #221
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #222
aspirant Jun 2015 #223
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #224
aspirant Jun 2015 #225
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #226
aspirant Jun 2015 #227
BainsBane Jun 2015 #147
aspirant Jun 2015 #150
BainsBane Jun 2015 #153
aspirant Jun 2015 #154
JustAnotherGen Jun 2015 #155
aspirant Jun 2015 #156
JustAnotherGen Jun 2015 #158
Bonobo Jun 2015 #29
bigtree Jun 2015 #30
Bonobo Jun 2015 #34
dsc Jun 2015 #47
bigtree Jun 2015 #52
Bonobo Jun 2015 #53
bigtree Jun 2015 #56
Bonobo Jun 2015 #62
bigtree Jun 2015 #65
Bonobo Jun 2015 #68
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #137
Lancero Jun 2015 #35
Bonobo Jun 2015 #39
bigtree Jun 2015 #58
virtualobserver Jun 2015 #31
madfloridian Jun 2015 #33
bigtree Jun 2015 #37
Cha Jun 2015 #108
BainsBane Jun 2015 #151
aspirant Jun 2015 #152
Sheepshank Jun 2015 #205
aspirant Jun 2015 #213
virtualobserver Jun 2015 #164
madfloridian Jun 2015 #32
bigtree Jun 2015 #41
madfloridian Jun 2015 #45
bigtree Jun 2015 #60
madfloridian Jun 2015 #88
bigtree Jun 2015 #92
AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #182
Babel_17 Jun 2015 #36
Bluenorthwest Jun 2015 #38
Bonobo Jun 2015 #40
bigtree Jun 2015 #43
dsc Jun 2015 #44
LeftOfWest Jun 2015 #51
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #59
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #42
bigtree Jun 2015 #46
BrotherIvan Jun 2015 #48
Ed Suspicious Jun 2015 #50
bigtree Jun 2015 #64
Ed Suspicious Jun 2015 #79
bigtree Jun 2015 #84
Bonobo Jun 2015 #85
Cha Jun 2015 #116
aspirant Jun 2015 #118
Cha Jun 2015 #120
Ed Suspicious Jun 2015 #124
Cha Jun 2015 #127
Ed Suspicious Jun 2015 #130
aspirant Jun 2015 #126
Cha Jun 2015 #128
aspirant Jun 2015 #134
Cheese Sandwich Jun 2015 #66
bigtree Jun 2015 #74
Bonobo Jun 2015 #76
bigtree Jun 2015 #81
Bonobo Jun 2015 #83
bigtree Jun 2015 #87
Bonobo Jun 2015 #89
Cheese Sandwich Jun 2015 #80
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #131
kath Jun 2015 #178
Maedhros Jun 2015 #210
Bonobo Jun 2015 #67
jtuck004 Jun 2015 #82
bigtree Jun 2015 #86
jtuck004 Jun 2015 #91
bigtree Jun 2015 #94
CTBlueboy Jun 2015 #90
Bonobo Jun 2015 #93
bigtree Jun 2015 #95
bigtree Jun 2015 #96
CTBlueboy Jun 2015 #97
Cha Jun 2015 #112
stevenleser Jun 2015 #163
AgingAmerican Jun 2015 #102
Comrade Grumpy Jun 2015 #106
Cha Jun 2015 #109
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #135
Cha Jun 2015 #139
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #141
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #157
Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #159
stevenleser Jun 2015 #165
KittyWampus Jun 2015 #160
Ken Burch Jun 2015 #174
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2015 #171
Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2015 #179
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2015 #180
Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2015 #181
CanadaexPat Jun 2015 #177
bigtree Jun 2015 #184
mmonk Jun 2015 #192
lovemydog Jun 2015 #195
jeff47 Jun 2015 #228

Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:00 PM

1. Isn't that interesting?

So much for "Nothing to see here," I guess.


It's kind of difficult to persist in denial when the very campaign--and THE CANDIDATE-- acknowledges the shortcoming.

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Response to MADem (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:43 PM

8. "Nothing to see here," for some. For a good many others it was glaringly obvious.

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Response to Cha (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:05 AM

140. What was glaringly obvious?

 

Bernie is a fallible mortal like anybody else...it's just that he's never been weak or indifferent on anti-oppression issues. And he was always going to be just as committed to an anti-oppression agenda as an other Democrat.

The "Bernie doesn't care" meme never had any grounding in reality, and he's done nothing to deserve having it spread.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #140)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 08:25 AM

161. 'Bernie doesn't care' was a strawman invented by his supporters.

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #140)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:11 PM

173. "Bernie is a fallible mortal like anybody else.."

So when will Sanders supporters admit that about Clinton?

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Response to George II (Reply #173)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:15 PM

176. We've never denied she was either.

 

We've simply rejected the idea that she's the only serious or legitimate candidate for the Democratic nomination.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #176)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:06 PM

185. We see all the time here that she changes her positions with the political wind, etc.

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Response to George II (Reply #185)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 11:22 PM

193. She does. And this doesn't contradict the idea that she's a fallible mortal.

 

You can be a fallible mortal and an opportunistic cynic at the same time, y'know.

The larger point is that HRC has no legitimate claim to be the strongest candidate on anti-oppression issues and on fighting institutional bigotry. She does not "own" those issues.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #193)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 05:26 PM

197. Bernie stuck his wet finger in the air and felt the brush of the winds of fate...and changed.

 

how is not opportunistic?

You clealry have decided that Sanders can evolve and it's good, Hillary cannot without it being bad.

Your creditbility is in the toilet.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #197)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:48 PM

206. Really, Sheepshank?

I've always found Ken to be very credible, but I'm a hippie, so what do I know?

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #206)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:49 PM

207. yeah...really...referring to this thread:

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=416123

I suppose I extrapolated to much from the Bernie supporters on that thread to this one particular supporter. it was wrong.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #207)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:54 PM

208. I don't care to argue,

but I really don't see that one comment by Ken Burch demonstrating that he isn't credible.

Have a nice day.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #208)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:59 PM

209. ooops, I was updating/editing my comment while you were posting

 

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #209)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 07:15 PM

212. All is forgiven.



Everybody's feeling a bit testy these days. Each of us has our favorite, but I imagine when push comes to shove, most of us will fall in line and vote for the Democratic nominee in 2016. I'm trying to stay out of these discussions as much as possible, but I've always found Ken's posts to be carefully thought out and respectfully presented, so I was a little taken aback by your post.

I haven't seen you in the photo group lately. Are you still taking pictures?

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #197)

Mon Jul 6, 2015, 06:52 PM

237. Wrong. Hillary can evolve.

 

It's just that she can never claim to be better than others on an issue if she was worse on them before she evolved-she can't claim to be the best candidate on the issue she evolved on. OK?

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #197)

Mon Jul 6, 2015, 06:54 PM

238. Because Bernie never changed who he was, never sold out.

 

And he never helped form a group (like the DLC) that fought to de-evolve the party on the issues.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #176)

Mon Jul 6, 2015, 07:05 PM

239. Yes there certainly are other candidates. BTW, OP poster have you been out of the country? This

article is a week and a half old and has circulated already. In recent news, what is Hillary going to talk about at last to the media tomorrow night, CNN at 5 or AC?

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Response to MADem (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 02:44 AM

194. I saw posts from Sanders supporters TODAY feeling that he has properly explained his policies on

issues that affect black people because he marched with MLK. They seem to GENUINELY believe that because he marched on these issues over 50 YEARS AGO, that this proves that these issues are important to him. And God help anyone who brings them up again, they are just simply pushing a "narrative" or this is all part of some "pro-Hillary conspiracy" designed to bring Sanders down instead of people actually trying to discuss issues that they may simply think are important.

So I give props to the Sanders team for not being nearly so ignorant, so clueless and so stupid to think that marching with MLK in ANY way substitutes for a comprehensive plan on tackling issues that affect minorities. I have yet to see his campaign release concrete policies or plans but I'm eager to hear them.

His fans on DU truly help me to understand why non-whites support Hillary over him by 91% to 3%. Between the dismissiveness, the accusatory and bizarre rage, and the far reaching paranoia -- apparently EVERYONE is out to get him -- it's a hell of a thing to see.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #194)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 10:27 PM

236. Thank you, 23!

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Response to MADem (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 05:23 PM

196. Just so long as Bernie supporters realize that evolving on this matter is already too late.

 

Right? isn't that what so many are stating about Hillary?

One cannot be on the right side of civil rights and on the right side of social justice AFTER the public has spoke out. Likely he stuck his wet finger in the air and decided to go for it....what a politicial animal he really has turned out to be lol

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #196)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 05:59 PM

201. No, I don't think it is EVER too late for people to realize and change--only Republicans think that

way! For example, that ill - advised work of 'fiction' that Sanders wrote when he was 31 years old...he has stated that he disavows it, that he doesn't feel that way about women, he never did, really, that it was awful and he doesn't want to affiliate himself with it at all, and I believe him. Sometimes, people do or say things that work in the moment, but don't reflect their deepest-held views.

In the case of recent campaign efforts, Senator Sanders' very own staff realized that their approach to national politics wasn't possessed of sufficient outreach, and they're moving to correct that.

It's what thoughtful politicians do.

It's a good move when their supporters take their cues from the candidates and their present attitudes and outreach efforts, rather than engaging in denial, or trying to reach back into the past for either praise or blame.

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Response to MADem (Reply #201)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:33 PM

204. I was being a little fecisious...of course people should be allowed to evolve.

 

I am just more than a little miffed at this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=416123

and having the Bernie crowd post after post, insist that changes are not good and not permitted because we must assume it's a weather vane event and we never know when a candidate will change their mind again.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #204)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 07:11 PM

211. I knew you were having a little fun; so was I.

I wouldn't be miffed at that thread. At all!!!

There's an old saying that goes like this:

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."

There will be, in time, a "last laugh," if one can have such a thing.

Most particularly, pay no attention to people who were not here before the Presidential Silly Season started. Why? Because they won't be here, odds are, after Inauguration Day 2017. In fact, they'll start dropping like flies in November 2016.

They'll be rolled up and put away for the 2018 legislative contests, and some will stay tucked away until 2020! Some will never be heard from again!

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:09 PM

2. I can't imagine how anyone could get that impression

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:14 PM

3. some here took extreme posts and projected them on EVERY instance where someone complained

...like you're doing here.

I'm not surprised you still think this is a defense against legitimate complaints which Sanders has now acknowledged.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #3)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:16 PM

4. He's been called racist here for not saying three words.

It's out of control.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:36 PM

5. more deflection

...and tone-deaf deflection, at that.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #5)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:40 PM

6. Enough.

I won't respond anymore. We have always had sensible conversations until lately.

Bernie is NOT racist.
Hillary is NOT racist.

It's ridiculous to even think it.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #6)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:53 PM

14. I didn't say he was a racist, never have

...accusing me of doing that is a deflection and an inadequate defense to legitimate questions of the priority he's giving legitimate issues and concerns related to the black community in his campaign rhetoric. Sanders HIMSELF has now acknowledged he's fallen short.

ENOUGH of the deflections.

ENOUGH of accusing people who express those SAME concerns of 'calling him a racist.'

If that's going to be the sum and substance of your responses, it's probably better that you keep it to yourself.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #14)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:24 PM

49. What is it that you're looking for out of Bernie or his supporters?

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #49)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:33 PM

54. a more direct discussion of issues and concerns of the black community

...which don't necessarily center on economic concerns. Issues like the ones I outlined in my op, but not restricted to those.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:43 PM

63. This took me 2 seconds to find. Does this count?

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:50 PM

69. of course it does

...now continue to amplify that in his campaign, as he's indicated he intends to. Is that so hard for you to understand?

Or should we expect two minutes in an interview to suffice?

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Response to bigtree (Reply #69)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:53 PM

72. LOL.

Even when confronted with PRECISELY what you claim doesn't exist, you won't put down the goalposts.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #72)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:55 PM

75. no, I won't be stifled from demanding that my concerns are addressed

...until that rhetoric from politicians is realized into action or law.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #75)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:00 AM

78. Absolutely, I understand.

But you must sort of get that it's silly when you are shown precisely what you asked for and then you pretend that it isn't there in front of your face, right?


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Response to Bonobo (Reply #78)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:08 AM

113. And defending the demonization of a candidate as indifferent to particular concerns

 

When this announcement proves the demonization was never justified.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:53 PM

73. You do know he was an organizer for SNCC

 

Obviously, Bernie wouldn't have joined that group if he on the side of all anti-oppression issues.

And he was always going to raise these issues as the campaign progressed. All that happened was that he didn't mention them in his first round of speeches.

In terms of actual performance on all the issues you listed in the OP, nobody has a better record.

What he's doing is pointing out that, while they aren't synonymous, the fight against oppression and the fight for economic justice are strongly linked, and that it's going to be a lot easier to get an anti-oppression agenda in place with an economically egalitarian adminstration than it ever will be with a president elected on a "pro-business" platform. The corporate world is always going to want to maintain some levels of bigotry to keep people divided...that's why, for example, the issue of "affirmative action" and how it supposedly harmed working-class whites just happened to get whipped up by the corporate media at precisely the moment when the freedom movement was consolidating a great number of gains...the wealthy wanted to send the message to working-class whites that gains for "the other" were always going to mean losses for them.

To break the power of that kind of tactics, economic justice(which affects the vast majority of people)needs to be a major component of any work on anti-oppression issues. There's no conflict between that and fighting against police brutality, for prison reform, for the end of institutional bigotry in all forms. They go together. That's the message Dr. King was killed for trying to send, after all.

You can't work just for anti-oppression issues and leave the economic issues unaddressed, because economic injustice will always work to sabotage social justice.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #73)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:00 AM

77. pointing to his past record is illuminating of his character and support

...but no substitute for elevating those issues we face today to a national level of discussion by giving them priority in his campaign rhetoric.

That's what campaigns are all about. It's the same as if he's ignored income inequality (one of his primary issues discussed in the campaign trail), for instance, to the primary focus on others.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #77)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:06 AM

101. It just occured to me Bernie is running....

 

....just to piss you off.

Thanks, Bernie.

Carry on.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #77)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:06 AM

110. If you're going to be consistent on this, please call on HRC to apologize for helping build the DLC.

 

A group which was formed to push the party to cease supporting poc concerns on those issues, as well as to get the party to distance itself from the poor and to stop challenging the right-wing equation of blackness with welfarefraud, out of wedlock childbirth and violent criminality.

A few speeches on poc issues doesn't exactly makeup for decades when she fought to leave poc communities totally marginalized in American politics, while still demanding total support from those communities at the polls for the most indifferent-to-poc candidates the party had nominated since the Twenties.

And those speeches don't make up for all her past "law and order"we know what that was always code for)campaigning, including all those damn appearances posing in front of phlanxes of (mainly white)cops. And her continued support for the death penalty.

Hold all the candidates accountable.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #110)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:10 AM

114. and incumbents

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Response to aspirant (Reply #114)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:01 AM

138. them too. n/t.

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #110)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:42 PM

168. BINGO!

The DLC was (and is, in its current re-named state) all about distancing the Democratic party from the poor and minorities.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #14)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:16 PM

203. Sorry, but your posts are full of it.

 

You clearly know nothing about the man.

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #203)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 08:38 PM

215. I know that he's given these issues I've outlined in my op low priority

...in his campaign appeal, so far.

That's all that concerns me. I'm asking that those issues be given the same priority he's given his economic appeal. If he does that, he might just begin to attract more attention and support of the black and Hispanic voters he says he'll be reaching out to.

'Full of shit' is expecting for his past record to suffice for that on its own. I swear, it's as if his supporters here can't defend him without these personal attacks on questioners and critics. That's just pathetic. It's fortunate for your candidate that you don't represent his actual campaign.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #215)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 08:50 PM

217. You keep asking what's an an unanswerable question at the moment

 

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Response to HERVEPA (Reply #217)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 09:00 PM

218. and that makes me 'full of it?'

...it's unbelievable how supporters here answer these concerns. Can you envision your candidate responding in the same fashion?

You do realize that I'm an actual voter, one who has already expressed support for Bernie Sander's candidacy (although he's not my candidate of choice in this primary)?

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:41 PM

7. can you please give one example

just one, of where that happened. And to be clear, an example of this means a place where the words "Sanders is a racist" were typed.

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Response to dsc (Reply #7)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:45 PM

10. That is deliberate nitpicking.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:48 PM

11. No it isn't

you claimed he was called a racist. If you meant to type something else you should have typed something else.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:52 PM

70. No, you're assertion was a straw man. Each time that has been alleged

 

It was a straw man. No one accused Sanders of being a racist. But you and others alleged that because that is an accusation you can beat up.

As always when straw men are used, you didn't want to deal with what was actually said.

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Response to dsc (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:13 AM

103. It has been implied

 

Implied:

adjective

involved, indicated, or suggested without being directly or explicitly stated; tacitly understood

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:48 PM

12. Who here called Sanders a racist?

 

I'd like to see that.

Got any links?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #12)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:57 AM

100. I do.

Very strongly implied in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026613443

And to be clear, I am neutral in my feelings towards Sanders. I just thought the comments in the thread to be ridiculous.

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Response to AnnetteJacobs (Reply #100)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:27 AM

104. Where in the thread?

 

Where in the thread does a poster call Sanders a racist?

Not seeing it.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #104)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 10:38 AM

166. You wont find it anywhere. It is a convenient strawman to try to shut down discussion of the issue.

 

That is all.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 6, 2015, 08:19 PM

242. See #240, #2. The prinicpal and possible worst attack among others.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:37 PM

57. And a poster earlier this week actually accused Bernie of seeking the votes of bigots.

 

I won't link to it because it's still disgusting to me that someone would actually come out and make such a brutally unfair accusation.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 10:47 AM

167. Folks who are prone to use strawmen don't need much encouragement. nt

 

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 6, 2015, 08:07 PM

240. "NOT GOOD ENOUGH, BERNIE" OP May 27, 2015 after Sanders Campaign Kickoff Event. Direct flame bait

and bizarre association of Sen. Sanders with an 1860s US Capitol mural of the Apotheosis of George Washington, founding father and slave owner, and an obscene photograph of two policemen with a young black man posed as "deer kill'.
The Washington blogger on which this OP was based and is noted in the text, immasmartpants, exploited the violent, racist events in Ferguson, Missouri, as an opportunity to accuse Senator Sanders of indifference to historic slavery and racism in the US, and to the issues of black people. An outrageous, vile and concocted offense that is hard to imagine, and for which no apology was made. The effort that was taken to write and publish this twisted fabrication in order to attack a new Democratic candidate is astounding and shameful.

* "NOT GOOD ENOUGH, BERNIE", May 27, 2015 *

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026737025




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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:44 PM

9. Good for Bernie being "honest"..

".. but to be honest with you, they’re probably more relevant to black and Hispanic voters … because the poverty rate in those communities is even higher than whites.”

mahalo bigtree

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Response to Cha (Reply #9)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:51 PM

13. the problem is that just because more hispanics and blacks are poor

doesn't mean they will rank economic issues high on their personal list of issues to vote on. I don't think it would be unreasonable for a significant portion of the black community to find the issue of how the police treat them to be more important than how the economy is even if there are more poor blacks than poor whites (by percentage and not number of course)

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Response to dsc (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:58 PM

15. You're absolutely right, dsc.

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Response to dsc (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:03 PM

19. And Bernie was always going to address that.

 

All that happened was that he didn't mention them in his first handful of speeches.

Bernie and his supporters never deserved attacks on these issues and HRC was never better than him on them.

Nobody in his campaign was ever arguing that these issues didn't matter or that poc and LGBTQ people and women weren't important constituencies.




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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #19)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 05:38 PM

198. oh you mean like the thread where Hillary doesn't talk incessantly about the environment

 

to the level that some posters felt was appropriate? Therefore, she doesn't care (according to those mind readers)

But somehow you just "know" Bernie was going to address the outreach program (when Bernie supporters had already acknowledged there was no need because everything was just fine and dandy). How did you know this topic ws going to be addressed by Bernie...did you suspect that even with your comrades assurances, maybe things did need to be fixed up?

Seriously, if Bernie supporters continue to hold Bernie to a differently level of communication and addressing issues, than other candidates, I will just have to presume either ignorance, feigned innocents or hypocrisy.

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Response to dsc (Reply #13)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:49 AM

133. Bernie has spoken out against police violence DURING this campaign.

 

Does he have to STOP mentioning economic justice in his speeches to prove he's committed to fighting police violence and institutional bigotry?

It's not as if economic issues only affect straight white men...or affect that demographic more than anyone else.

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Response to Cha (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:31 AM

122. There is no slur in that statement.

 

And he wasn't blaming those communities for the higher poverty rates. Besides, Bernie wasn't part of the "Democratic" administration that said nothing when Republicans equated welfare fraud and out-of-wedlock childbirth with blackness.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 09:58 PM

16. He was always going to do that anyway. He never needed to be forced.

 

It goes without saying that Bernie always recognized those issues. His voting record showed that.

And HRC was never preferable to Bernie on anti-oppression issues.

Why was it such a big freaking deal that he didn't have it in the first handful of speeches?


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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:02 PM

17. so your contention is he deliberately lowballed his focus on the black community in his rhetoric

...early in his campaign, with the intention of increasing that appeal now?

Okay.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:06 PM

21. He never lowballed his focus on poc, or women, or LGBTQ people.

 

He just happened to start his campaign in states where fewer of them lived. In and of itself, that means nothing.

He was always going to speak more on these issues as his campaign headed into more diverse areas of the country where his record was less-known. And he'd have had a major address on this last Sunday, but the Charleston Massacre made it inappropriate for acampaign speech at that time.

Bernie was always anti-oppression and that was always going to be a major part of the campaign.

Jesus...you can't STILL be on the attack on this.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #21)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:16 PM

25. that's not a very good excuse

...you mean that when talking to predominately white audiences - appealing to voters in predominately white states - he deliberately low-balled his rhetoric about issues and concerns of the black community? I hope that's not the case, and that it's just a miscalculation, as he suggests.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #25)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:40 PM

61. He didn't lowball anything.

 

In those early speeches, he addressed people who already knew him and knew of his record. You knew all along that a Sanders presidency would never ignore anti-oppression issues.

It's not "deflection" to point out that Bernie didn't actually have shortcomings on this issue in terms of his record on the issues.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #25)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:16 AM

99. Bernie's issue has been Economics and I hope he's finding out since his statement in 2014 that

there's more to making people's lives better.. especially Black Americans.. than just leveling the economic field.

"..the African American community is very very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for President"



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Response to Cha (Reply #99)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:28 AM

121. Bernie never said that economic issues were ALL that mattered.

 

He said they matter just as much as anti-oppression issues and that you have to work for the end to personal bigotry and institutional bigotry AND economic justice all together, because they are connected(as Dr. King was murdered for pointing out).

Just working against personal and institional bigotry will not defeat those injustices, because market economics needs prejudice to survive in order to keep the majority who are oppressed by market economics from uniting and bringing the system down. That's why the economic and political power structure made sure all the anti-oppression movements were crushed in the earl Seventies and made sure to spread the lies that fed the white backlash at that time. The backlash didn't happen on its own-it was made to happen by our rulers.

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Response to Cha (Reply #99)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:55 PM

169. Bernie fights for all

this has been taken out of context

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Response to Cha (Reply #99)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:30 PM

183. He's never ever said race doesn't matter. He's just said class matters, too. n/t.

 

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #16)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:03 PM

18. maybe because people fear it won't be a priority if he isn't talking about it

and I don't think that is an unreasonable stance for them to be taking. Presidents can only work on so many issues at any given time. It seems reasonable to assume that the issues that will be worked on are the issues that are mentioned. Maybe you could try listening to the people who bring this up (like the campaign is apparently doing) instead of telling them what they should think.

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Response to dsc (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:12 PM

22. you hit that right on the head

...Sanders and his campaign have recognized that shortfall and will make an effort to shore that up. His supporters here could bear some self-examination of their own priorities in responding to those concerns expressed here.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #22)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:15 PM

24. Why are you still attacking on this?

 

Doesn't this put the issue to rest?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #24)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:21 PM

26. I'm replying to deflections

...as I said in my op, lip service isn't going to suffice. Don't believe for a minute that I'm not going to continue to challenge candidates, including my own, to fully embrace the agendas I support and advocate.

I'm not taking a back seat to any politician or supporter and stifling myself while I wait for them to advocate for me.

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Response to dsc (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:14 PM

23. I've been in the Bernie group calling on Bernie to talk about this more. I have listened.

 

This is a bogus attack started by the Clinton campaign...supporters of a candidate who helped build the DLC-an organization that fought to push blacks out into the cold in the Democratic party(along with the poor in general and labor in general-most poc are disproportionately working-class and pro-labor)and to keep LGBTQ and all but the most centrist and timid feminists out in the cold.

You can't be part of building the DLC and then later bash other people as not being anti-oppression enough.

(I don't apply those remarks to any non-HRC supporters who claimed Bernie needed to say more).

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #23)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:25 PM

27. I'm an O'Malley supporter (not a Clinton supporter) advocating for issues and concerns I believe in

...and I'm not 'part of' any candidate's campaign.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #23)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:30 PM

28. For the record

I would be a Sherrod Brown supporter if he were to run. He isn't running so that is moot. Of the four that are running (five if you count Webb) I could be persuaded to vote for O'Malley or Clinton. I haven't made up my mind yet. I have a visceral dislike of Webb for his positions on women and gays in the military from the 80's and 90's. His recent crap about the Confederate Flag has only made it worse. My problem with Sanders is that he just plain hasn't shown any ability to win (or even a reasonable game plan for winning). He won't take money nor allow outside money to be spent on him and frankly we saw with Feingold in 2010 what happens if you do that. I like O'Malley but have no real idea what his foreign policy is like. I intend to read his speech on that he gave tonight. That said, I haven't read your posts in Sanders' group. I have read your posts here and in General discussion. I think I have been very fair in describing what your posts in those locations have done. You might want to post here like you do there.

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Response to dsc (Reply #28)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:36 PM

55. I like Brown, too.

 

You'd have to acknowledge, though, that a large percentage of those attacking Bernie on this were HRC supporters who were falsely presenting their candidate as more anti-oppression than thou. I'll support her if nominated, by she has no particular claim to righteousness or courage on these issues.

And my posts were simply in service of the fact that Bernie doesn't actually have a weakness on these areas. He's been fighting against all forms of oppression throughout his career as an activist and then an elected official.

All that really happened was that Bernie didn't hit anti-oppression issues, in his FIRST speeches, as heavily as HRC did. All we have to do is to tell people about his record(as the campaign is doing and will keep doing)and the issue becomes a non-issue.

It's the unfairness of it that offends me. It simply was never true that Bernie wasn't there for oppressed communities. And the fact that he got a fairly monochrome crowd in Vermont, his home state, should never have been used against him, since that was unavoidable in that state.



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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #55)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:52 PM

71. I think that he is going to have problems in this area

unless he really works to address them. As a gay voter, one of the things I look for in the primary is a candidate's experience with gays either personally or as constituents. I would think other minorities tend to do the same thing. Clinton, O'Malley, and even Chafee represent much more diverse constituencies than does Sanders and like it or not, that is something at least some of these voters will be looking it. On issues of economics or the Iraq War, Clinton has a somewhat similar problem. She is going to have to continually address those issues or else voters who care about those issues are going to question her bonafides. Sanders at least has votes on these issues at the federal level, which Dean didn't when he ran. But still, he is going to have to address this issue head on and often and not just in SC or other states with diverse electorates. One of the big reasons I supported Dean in 04 was the fact he told audiences in Iowa and NH what he did for gays in Vermont despite the fact that neither of those states were gay meccas.

One of Sanders big problems is that there are many people who feel that economics trump race in all instances and people who care about racial issues might well wonder if he is one of those people. I don't think he is, from his record. You clearly don't either. But neither of us, in the final analysis, is who matters here. It is those who care most deeply about this issue and are thus likely to be basing their primary vote upon it, who matter here. I think more than a few of them, had an honest issue with his announcement speech. It remains to be seen how much of a problem it ends up being.

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Response to dsc (Reply #71)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:21 PM

229. Holy crapola

You are talking about Bernie Sanders who was way ahead of his time on the issues and with his vote and action on gay rights and in terms of matters of race and civil rights.

What you are doing is having a conversation about optics rather than policy and that just doesn't wash.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:03 PM

170. "You can't be part of building the DLC and then later bash other people as not being anti-oppression

Enough."

THIS. This, this, this.
A point that should be made often.

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Response to dsc (Reply #18)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 05:46 PM

199. you mean like the lack of priority Hillary has, as described on this thread?

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=416123

don't you think both candidates deserve to be held to the same standards?

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #199)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:04 PM

202. To the extent that she isn't addressing it that is a fair concern

I will admit my dream candidate would be even worse in that regard likely. I am a huge fan of Sherrod Brown but his position on coal is not so great. In Hillary's defense I do think she worked on the coal issue in the Senate.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:03 PM

20. These events are happening under Obama's watch too

What are Obama's solutions? Has he curtailed Income inequality, has police brutality and murder become a thing of the past, has racism been dissolved by "Hope and Change"

He's had 7 years to address and crush these societal problems along with Holder and now Lynch, while Bernie announced a month or so ago.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #20)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:05 AM

98. "He's had 7 years to crush these societal problems.." Oh yeah, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Tamir

Rice, and all the other Black people killed by the police were President Obama's fault.

Racism didn't stop when President Obama was elected.. they came out from under their rocks in droves and Black Americans know this.. and Bernie has to acknowledge it.

It's not true what he said in his statement on the 2014 elections about "..the African American community is very very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for President"



Bernie is not expected to fix it.. but again.. he has to acknowledge the problems.. if he wins the Dem Nom he's going to want President Obama's coalition behind him.

But, it's not just about "poverty" .. and bigtree has it right..

"Also, he'll need to recognize that black voter concerns go beyond his pet issue of economics; the same way that economic success for many black Americans hasn't insulated them from discrimination in employment, policing, housing, voting rights, and other advantages of citizenship that have been elusive for the black community. Hopefully this is more than window dressing."

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Response to Cha (Reply #98)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:53 AM

105. Happening under Obama's watch

and what has he done to fix it?

What are Obama's specific solutions to incarcerations, police brutality and murder , income inequality ,racism etc?

"Obama's coalition behind him" NO, it will be Bernie's coalition with Truth and Principles.

"discrimination in employment, policing, housing, voting rights" what has Obama done to solve these issues?

Has Obama been waiting for Bernie solutions to fix these things?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #105)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:02 AM

107. Unfortunately Bernie's supporters on DU are not his best advocates.. this is about Bernie and his

supporters, who think he's perfect, want to blame everyone else but him.

"Also, he'll need to recognize that black voter concerns go beyond his pet issue of economics; the same way that economic success for many black Americans hasn't insulated them from discrimination in employment, policing, housing, voting rights, and other advantages of citizenship that have been elusive for the black community. Hopefully this is more than window dressing."

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Response to Cha (Reply #107)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:07 AM

111. "Unfortunately" Obama's "supporters...are not his best advocates"

This is about an incumbent President and his lack of solutions

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Response to aspirant (Reply #111)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:11 AM

115. Bernie is the one running for President. President Obama's polls are 86% among Liberal Dems..

We're doing just fine.

Sen Sanders is the one who's going to want Obama's coalition if he should win the primary.

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Response to Cha (Reply #115)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:17 AM

117. But the entire AA community is not doing fine

and Obama isn't fixing it.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #117)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:22 AM

119. Yeah, maybe Bernie will get the message.

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Response to Cha (Reply #119)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:33 AM

123. Why isn't Obama getting the message too?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #123)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:36 AM

125. So much of the African American Communiity loves Pres Obama.. I'm not sure about Bernie.

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Response to Cha (Reply #125)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:44 AM

129. What about the one's that are

suffering because he lacks solutions, do they love him too?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #129)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:48 AM

132. You're the only trying to make the President look bad to build up Bernie.. poor Bernie.

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Response to Cha (Reply #132)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:58 AM

136. We look at the President's performances too

and he's not fixing things.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #136)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:16 AM

143. Obama's Grace~ The President is an inspiration~



And of course it was. His singing was the aspect of the speech that will be easiest to remember. That is in part because it was so unusual and in part because it was so brave: Obama sang well, but not perfectly. For someone so precise and aspiring-to-perfection in most other realms of achievement, and so obviously hyper-aware of his levels of skill (he told Marc Maron in his remarkable WTF interview that he didn’t like playing basketball any more, now that he recognized that age had made him the weakest player on the court), singing like another enthusiastic parishioner, and not like a featured member of the choir, was brave and said something about his comfort with this crowd.

"The choice of grace as the unifying theme, which by the standards of political speeches qualifies as a stroke of genius."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/grace/397064/

Of course the rwingers hate him bringing together mourners with Grace and Comfort.

Poor Bernie.. his advocates think they have to tear down the President and everyone else to build him up.

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Response to Cha (Reply #143)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:25 AM

145. Can he inspire himself

to fix these oppression problems?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #145)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:39 AM

148. President Obama is such a beautiful soul. What an amazing successful week our Country has had!

Ten Days in June

snip//

On Thursday, the Supreme Court (despite an apocalyptic dissent about “pure applesauce” and “interpretive jiggery-pokery” by Justice Scalia) put an end to years of court cases and congressional attacks against the Affordable Care Act, which means that millions of Americans will no longer live in a state of perpetual anxiety about health costs.

On Friday, the Supreme Court (despite a curiously ill-informed dissent about Kalahari, Aztec, and Han mating rites by Chief Justice Roberts) legalized same-sex marriage nationally—a colossal (and joyous) landmark moment in the liberation of gay men and lesbians.

MOre..http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/ten-days-in-june


petesouza
✔ ‎@petesouza
Read my post on when the President heard about yesterday's scotus decision on ACA: http://go.wh.gov/SPVhe2
11:08 AM - 26 Jun 2015
667 667 Retweets 740 740 favorites

http://theobamadiary.com/2015/06/26/tweets-of-the-day-30/



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Response to Cha (Reply #143)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:30 PM

186. Thanks for the link cha

That was an excellent summation.

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Response to mcar (Reply #186)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 07:34 PM

190. I have a couple of more today, mcar..

The Time Has Come to Recognize President Obama's Game-Changing Liberal Legacy

t wasn't supposed to go down like this. In the aftermath of the 2014 midterm elections, when Democrats ceded control of the Senate and saw their deficit steepen in statehouses across the country, President Barack Obama was widely expected to set aside his ambitions and map out a more cautious agenda.

http://mic.com/articles/121452/the-time-has-come-to-recognize-president-obama-s-game-changing-liberal-legacy

After momentous week, Obama's presidency is reborn

This came very close to being the worst week of Barack Obama’s presidency, and, effectively, the last: a possible repudiation from both Congress and the Supreme Court, from his own party, from a country struggling with the same racial tensions he’s approached with a caution that’s often come across more like muted fear.

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/barack-obama-momentous-week-president-reborn-social-issues-119503.html#ixzz3eP25vEWf

mcar

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Response to Cha (Reply #190)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 07:42 PM

191. I will check them out

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Response to Cha (Reply #132)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:13 AM

142. You're only trying to make Bernie look bad to build up the most conservative candidate in the race.

 

It would not be a victory for the anti-oppression cause for a person who helped build the DLC (the group Jesse Jackson rightly called "Democrats for the Leisure Class"to win the nomination.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #142)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:18 AM

144. Nah, I'm not trying to make bernie look bad.. but, I agree with bigtree's OP.

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Response to Cha (Reply #144)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:36 AM

146. Bernie was going to make a major speech on anti-oppression issues last Sunday.

 

He held off because doing that two days after the Charleston Massacre would have been inappropriate, especially for a political candidate. Bernie did not have to be FORCED to speak about this, and it's bogus for the OP to attack him for doing what the OP had been calling on him to do.

Bernie has spent fifty years fighting personal and institutional bigotry, without let-up and without compromise.

It's outrageous that he's being accused of not being trustworthy on anti-oppression issues despite that record.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #142)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:07 PM

172. DLC - "Democrats for the Leisure Class"

I love it, and hadn't heard it before.

Mega-thanks, Ken, for reminding/educating us about the odious DLC.

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Response to kath (Reply #172)

Mon Jul 6, 2015, 08:15 PM

241. +5. I also use the (buy-partisan) Investor Class

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Response to Cha (Reply #125)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:14 PM

175. Why does President Obama hate the AA community?



Why won't he fix the country?!?!?!!

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Response to zappaman (Reply #175)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 07:26 PM

189. I know, zappa.. hilariously ignorant deflection!


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Response to aspirant (Reply #111)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 08:47 AM

162. No, it's not. This entire form is called General Discussion - Primaries. Obama is not running

 

In the primary.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #162)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:15 PM

188. Oh, it's the self-proclaimed unpaid Fox News guy

"he will be the "leadership" in Black America" (post155) He/she must feel Obama's endorsement and/or tacit backing in 2016 will be relevant to the primaries

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Response to aspirant (Reply #188)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:31 PM

230. Just like your candidate Bernie. You should call him up and criticize him right away. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #230)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:36 PM

231. He's running for President and a sitting Senator, are you?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #231)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:38 PM

232. That means nothing. He goes to argue Democratic points. Same as me. Go criticize him. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #232)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:45 PM

233. Running for President and a Senator means nothing?

An unknown, unpaid Fox guy = Bernie Sanders?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #233)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:49 PM

234. Nope, if its evil to go on that network, its evil. Go criticize Sanders. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #234)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:53 PM

235. Sanders has a reason to go, you don't.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #105)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:45 AM

149. DOJ has investigated hate crimes

vigorously enforced voting rights and extended civil rights to rape victims on college campuses. All of these efforts have been denounced as amounting to nothing. People have many, many times denounced holder as useless, doing nothing, when the fact is he was an extremely effective AJ on the very issues you claim nothing was done about.

No one, except a few people on this site, are waiting for Sanders to fix anything. The issue is pretty simple: is he running to represent all Americans or just the white male middle class? The OP shows that concerns about ADDRESSING--speaking to--the issues of voters of color is important, and that Sanders has acknowledged they are important. Candidates fix nothing. They articulate issues and priorities that reflect what their agenda would be if elected.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #149)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:04 PM

187. What are Obama and DoJ solutions to

police brutality and murder, income inequality, jobs for AA youth, Crosscheck lists with millions of AA and Hispanic common names just to start?

If you are not "waiting for Sanders to fix anything" why do you care when he says anything?

Do you think "he is running to represent... just the white male middle class"?

If Sanders has "acknowledged they are important" then obviously he has spoken to the issue

"Candidates fix nothing" but Presidents do.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #105)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 05:58 PM

200. I suggest you don't vote for Obama since he didn't fix the AA social problems thing.

 

seriously, you don't think that Obama hasdn't spoke out loudly and consistently? you don't think that that is how change starts? wow.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #200)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 07:58 PM

214. 7 years of "Hope and Change"

and we still have AA's being murdered by cops, AA's rotting away in prison cells, youth AA unemployment 50% in some areas, militarization of cops with sold/donated tanks and armored vehicles

It's time for real change, Go Bernie

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Response to aspirant (Reply #214)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 08:45 PM

216. Ill be glad when primaries are finally over and you leave

 

Your job to constantly and without fail to post decisive, mean, low content, acerbic posts are tiresome and too predictable.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #216)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 09:35 PM

219. Then why respond?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #219)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 09:57 AM

220. Simple

 

tags the posts for my future reference and lets you know I have noticed.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #220)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 10:25 AM

221. You're being to "predictable"

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Response to aspirant (Reply #221)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 10:26 AM

222. I'm ok with this particular predictability

 

hope they rest of your stay is more pleasant.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #222)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 10:46 AM

223. Are you still on tha "hope" and change wave

Last edited Tue Jun 30, 2015, 03:32 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to aspirant (Reply #223)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 11:19 AM

224. Palin...is that you...or are you a special DU'er just trying to bait me?

 

I got my hope and change...and much of it came together this last week.

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #224)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 12:29 PM

225. Fishing chum is all that's necessary here.

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Response to aspirant (Reply #225)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 12:55 PM

226. hope you don't aspirate on the stuff you are flinging out. n/t

 

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #226)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:10 PM

227. The chum is just too inticing

for all the little fishes

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Response to aspirant (Reply #20)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:36 AM

147. Responses like this

show a starling lack of familiarity with American society and the role of the presidency. You imagine a President can single handedly do away with 400 years of racism? That he has power over municipal and county police forces all around the country?

DOJ under Holder has been working diligently to advance civil rights. They have enforced voting rights, prosecuted hate crimes, and extended civil rights protection to rape victims on college campuses. Those are the achievements people here have denounced as nothing, as part of a do nothing DOJ.

You don't even seem to understand the OP's point. He is no way suggested that Sanders was to wave a magic wand and erase hundreds of years of inequality. He said that Sanders has begun to express a willingness to address issues related to African Americans. Why should that bother you?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #147)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:56 AM

150. It's Bernie's campaign

and he will decide when he addresses issues just like Obama decides when he fixes problems.

Why hasn't Obama publicly stated he's helpless with oppression issues because they are unfixable

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Response to aspirant (Reply #150)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 05:07 AM

153. Sanders has said the campaign is about the people

not him. You seem to prefer he focus on the minority of the population rather than the majority. That you think what he says speaks to the concerns of all Americans doesn't make it so. It is voters themselves who decide whether a candidate's message resonates with them.

You clearly are entirely uninformed on basic social problems, their structural role in society, and steps that has been taken to address them. Why hasn't Obama taught you basic history and sociology? Just as the president doesn't have authority over municipal and county police forces, he can't compel citizens to learn about the nature of the society they live in. You don't even seem to understand what a President does, or how power is wielded in a federalist system. The president is not responsible for your state of knowledge.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #153)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 05:19 AM

154. Do you think Bernie's state of knowledge is lacking?

Is the majority of the population "Americans"?

Who sold/donated municipal and county police military tanks and armored vehicles?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #150)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 05:23 AM

155. That's fair

We aren't "one" until the G.E.

The op merely pointed out that Sanders campaign staff has figured out that they are losing ground with certain demographics and need to do a better job with outreach into those groups.

I won't be voting in the primary until next June. That's a long time from now. He has time.


And re Obama - I've read a lot of "Just wait until so and so is in office."

His words at the funeral? Just wait until he's not in office. I'm sure he will be measured - but the condemnation is coming. He's not going into obscurity. And I think the bigots in this country are going to have their asses handed to them on a platter. And regardless of who wins in 2016 - they aren't going to shut him up. He will be the "leadership" in black America - and the person who follows him is going to have to suck it up.

Of the five on the board - none have been black like me. They won't have the credibility that he has with black Americans.

No one knows better than Obama that regardless of how hard you work, how much you accomplish - you are still "less than" to a segment of Americans who are enraged you beat them at the game of life - because due to your skin color everything they "know" says "you people aren't supposed to win".

In this utopia the Democratic Party of the future envisions - there will be more successful black people - right? He will be able to speak to the fact that they are still at the mercy of the real estate agent who shows homes below their means.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #155)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 05:40 AM

156. "losing ground" but gaining in the polls

I'm sure he's aware of the voter potential and is taking his time to do it right

"enraged you beat them at the game of life" would that include Bill and Hill?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #156)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 07:04 AM

158. No - that would be

The average white guy who assumes everything you earned and sweated for in life - you were "given" via Affirmative Action. Not right or left - just "out there".

Bigotry - in your face or subtle - towards in particular black Americans - cant be solved until that guy changes. Think - someone like Rick Santorum if you are looking for a politician.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:37 PM

29. You feelings got hurt. It's time to get over it. nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:41 PM

30. wow

...that was condescending, insensitive, tone-deaf, and more than a little offensive.

Your candidate certainly isn't demanding that I 'get over it.'

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Response to bigtree (Reply #30)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:55 PM

34. You are confusing a lot of different things.

My candidate, being an intelligent person, understands that as a Senator from Vermont, he did not have either a nationwide audience in general, nor a very deep exposure to people of color specifically.

Those facts are not a reflection on his POTENTIAL to appeal to those groups. Thus, the need to reach out more.

Nor does this imply in any way that he ignores the issues affecting those groups or is any way tone deaf to their issues. HOWEVER, those are precisely the charges that we made against him. And no one here says he was called "racist", so that is a straw man. HOWEVER, it was strongly implied that he doesn't care about race issues, AND it was stated outright that his movement is both made up of heater white males and is sold to appeal to hetero white males (ala Ron Paul, btw!).

NOW, if you don't think that the sum of those is, in essence, to imply racism on the part of Sanders and his supporters, fine. But I think it is disingenuous of you, in that case, or perhaps indicative of a failure to see the obvious.

IN CONCLUSION, your personal feelings of being hurt by the accusations that you race-baited against Sanders are germane to this in the following regard: Which is that your motivation for posting this "We were accused!!!!" OP is clearly coming from a personal wound or feeling of having been victimized.

Call it tone-deaf or insensitive, but I am suggesting you leave your personal meta DU feelings out of this.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #34)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:18 PM

47. You might want to look at post 4 in this thread

It sure seems the words called Bernie a racist are in that post.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #34)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:28 PM

52. you have nothing to offer except for a defense of your candidate

...and you're lashing out at me because I've expressed those concerns.

You ignore the fact that your own candidate has acknowledged the very things I've been complaining about. I notice that he didn't accuse those expressing the same concerns of calling him a 'racist,' as many of his supporters here have.

I repeat, your statement is offensive and remarkably insensitive. you view everything I've said through your political defense of this politician, ignoring that I've been advocating, living with the consequences of these issue I represent in discussions on race here for the entirety of my life. You need to back the hell off from any more insults to my character for expressing them here.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #52)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:31 PM

53. Dude, your OP starts with "We Were Accused!"

In my book, that is a personal OP motivated by personal feelings.

My pointing that (obvious fact) out, does not mean I am attacking your character.

If you don't want personal stuff, keep YOUR personal emotions out of your OPs.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #53)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:36 PM

56. and we were accused

...but to characterize my concerns as limited to 'hurt feelings' is a remarkably base level of understanding or acknowledgement of those legitimate concerns I and others have expressed about the primacy and priority these issues have gotten in Sander's campaign rhetoric.

You meant to personally insult me. You did that. You need to back off of the personal attacks.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #56)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:41 PM

62. Your issues of hurt feelings relate to DU relationships. It is meta.

It has nothing to do with a political analysis.

That is my point.

Keep your OPs on point and related to political matters and there will be no problem.

Get all meta and you will get meta stuff back.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #62)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:47 PM

65. you don't get to dictate how I feel

...you'd do better listening to my concerns instead of focusing your efforts defending your candidate on attacking my character.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #65)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:50 PM

68. Yes, yes. See post #67.

Feel however you want. No one is trying to stop you from feeling.

And your "concerns" seem to relate to how you are being perceived on DU.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #52)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:00 AM

137. Why can't you admit that those concerns were unfounded?

 

Bernie has always been a fighter against personal and institutional bigotry. He never said or felt that the isses ou listed at the end of your op weren't important. He just said they weren't the only issues that mattered.

How long are you going to keep this going? Bernie has never been more suspect than the other candidates-including O'Malley, whose racially and socially indifferent policies as mayor of Baltimore basically inspired most of the plotlines on The Wire.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:56 PM

35. Jury results - 1-6 leave.

You feelings got hurt. It's time to get over it. nt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=416002

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

His feeling did not get hurt. He has a legitimate article up Sanders himself put out. Sanders supporters seem to be the ones with the hurt feelings. This is so silly, that one cannot simply own fact and move on. Yea for Sanders recognizing his shortfall.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:53 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't understand this alert. You disagree, but this isn't an attack, or over the top. Jesus, deal with it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's going to be a long primary and election season.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is a rude and overly aggressive post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Hey Bonobo, I think you hurt someones feelings.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

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Response to Lancero (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:03 PM

39. I haven't had a hidden post in 30 days!

But people won't stop trying, I guess.

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Response to Lancero (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:38 PM

58. not my alert

...but I agree with it.

Not surprised in the least by the jury decision, in which at least one juror saw fit to mock people here in the same fashion.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:48 PM

31. I don't really think that he got your message......

 

He has lived a life in which he has stood up for all people in society, while others in the Democratic Party
had to evolve to get to that point.

What he really said is that his message is "probably more relevant to black and Hispanic voters …"

I think that he intends to make that case, not tailor his message.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #31)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:52 PM

33. Yes, very good post. So true.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #31)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:58 PM

37. we'll see if that suffices

...“We have a lot of work to do.”

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #31)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:04 AM

108. Yeah, I doubt if he got the Black Community's message either.. but, we'll see.

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Response to virtualobserver (Reply #31)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:59 AM

151. That would be unfortunate

If he is not willing to listen and understand what the experiences of Americans are like, how they differ for people of color in particular, he is unlikely to be successful. While Republicans can win with messages directed at the white middle class, and men in particular, Democrats cannot. To attract the votes of Democrats, politicians need to speak to the concerns of Democratic voters, the majority of whom are people of color and single women.
As much as people here believe themselves the base, they are not. In demographic terms, they far more closely resemble the GOP electorate than the Democratic. That of course is not to say that demographics are determinate. Clearly they are not, but one cannot win an election by ignoring key Democratic constituencies.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #151)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 05:05 AM

152. If Obama listens and understands

yet can't fix the problems, how can Bernie?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #152)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 06:38 PM

205. So Bernie is deaf (although he's turned up his hearing aid) and he can't fix things either?

 

...is that the point of your post?

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Response to Sheepshank (Reply #205)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 07:44 PM

213. I'm glad you agree that Obama

is not fixing things.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #151)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 09:18 AM

164. My point is that he has always been listening....

 

and his record proves it. It is a record that doesn't force me to wince as the records of some other Democratic politicians do. Talk is very cheap, and it is easy to jump on the bandwagon once the political coast is clear.

That you or anyone else would imagine that someone with a record like his intended to ignore anyone is pretty amazing. My guess is....his record is so wonderful, that Bernie's critics don't have much to work with.

I appreciate all of the helpful advice that Hillary supporters are giving since I realize that their hidden desire is that Bernie will succeed and wrest the nomination from her.

The flaw in the thinking of traditional of traditional Democrats is the very thing that you stated. Democrats can't win with a message aimed at the white middle class.

Middle class white people have the same fundamental concerns that everyone else in this country does. He intends to show the reality....that we are all in this together.

Republicans try to divide Americans in as many ways as possible.
Divide and conquer.

We need to stop accepting the boundaries established by the Republican playbook.



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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:48 PM

32. Bernie posted this on Twitter on June 11, days before Charleston and the many posts here...

criticizing both him and Hillary for not saying certain words.

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/609103144681897985

Does it matter? I have no idea.

I did notice that the comments range from being appreciative to attacking him for not saying it sooner. Some even accused him of pandering for using the hashtag.

Our candidates can not win for losing. Neither Hillary nor Bernie are the least bit racist.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #32)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:08 PM

41. many have said the same about politicians' efforts in addressing the LGBT community

...'can not win for losing'

Successful and effective advocacy in our political system requires, demands, persistent challenging of rhetoric until it's realized into action or law.

Again, demands for representation and priority in politicians' rhetoric isn't an implication that they're 'racist,' and deflections which use that meme as a defense do nothing to address those concerns.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #41)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:14 PM

45. To direct it at a candidate who has stood for the needs of people his whole career..

is counter-productive.

Nothing he says, nothing we say will matter to you.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #45)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:39 PM

60. you don't know what will 'matter' to me

...and you don't appear to care.

Your candidate appears to, though.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #60)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:24 AM

88. I care what matters.

I really do. I just don't know what to say to you anymore. Bernie listened, he's responding in the WP...and you are being rather told you so about it. So I care what matters, but nothing I say is enough.

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Response to madfloridian (Reply #88)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:33 AM

92. it's called 'holding feet to the fire'

...it's what responsible citizens should be expected to do for all of these politicians.

(meaning: To hold one accountable for a commitment, make good on a promise.)

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Response to bigtree (Reply #92)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:27 PM

182. By demanding he do something he has been doing for over 50 years?

 

lol

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:56 PM

36. Sanders will deliver on all of our platform

Imo Sanders will deliver on all of our party platform because he recognizes, and has allowed for, the GOP propaganda juggernaut. The GOP will have a sizable contingent in both houses of congress. We need to subvert and undermine the hold the GOP has on their voters, those who vote against their economic best interests.

If we Democrats don't undermine the GOP then the GOP will continue to hold government hostage and force us to, at best, settle for the most incremental/partial of advances of our platform.

Sanders, and lots of Progressives, have always been clear about this. If Sanders, or any candidate, needs to recite our party platform in toto when introducing themselves, and their campaign, we are doomed. I once attended a meeting of Marxists, they made old time Catholics reciting a litany of faith look lazy. Every bit of the agenda has to get mentioned. Every struggle must get mentioned.

Marxists aren't relevant here in the USA. Sanders knows how to get our message out, the same way all our greatest leaders have. Lincoln, FDR, Kennedy, they all knew that you start by addressing the entire nation, and you speak to the common denominator.

I think many Sanders supporters saw fake concern for how Sanders introduced his campaign. I think Sanders supporters had no doubt that he would address all the major concerns of our party, and our nation. Quite frankly, this is politics, and anything leveled against the Sanders campaign by parts of our party looking to advance their agenda, are rightly viewed as such. (And there's nothing wrong with making sure you don't get ignored.)

Personalities, and unfortunate exchanges of words, will also enter into it, and one way or the other that gets put behind us.

That's pretty much all I have to say.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:01 PM

38. I'd like to quote your words toward those of us who complained about Rick Warren at the Inaugural

 

Warren had just weeks before equated all gay relationships to pedophilia and incest. Your response to complaints about grotesque and open hate speakers being given places of coveted national honor:
"I don't believe the prayers themselves will be any kind of an imposition.
There's no requirement that you listen, or any mandate that the words are heeded or adhered to by the President or the Vice-President.
I suspect that most folks welcome the accompaniment of the prayers in the ceremony, aside from whatever feelings they may have about the ones delivering them."


If LGBT people had approached the openly oppositional Barack Obama with the same sort of word parsing ill will you bring to Bernie in spite of his record the man would not have become President.
I think not being assholes to people is part of why we make progress. How's your progress?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:05 PM

40. Make sure to not hold your breath while you wait for a response.

I'd hate to lose you.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:12 PM

43. you contradict the very point about my defense of these complaints against Sanders

...and calling blacks and others who express these concerns 'assholes' is far worse than anything I said about a prayer which said nothing about those issues you claim I need 'progress' on.


2008 op regarding, 'All these whining race tinged 'concerns' about Obama'

My response:

just because we may have misunderstandings and a difficulty expressing them in unbiased ways

. . . doesn't make us racists. I only consider folks 'racist' if they use the subject to divide, injure, or to unfairly elevate themselves at the expense of others. I could think of more, but, these will do.

I really think that it's going overboard to label all folks who hold and vocalize concerns they may have about issues of race and ethnicity as racists, as is the tendency with some as they've defended the black candidate in our primary.

And, I think the number of folks who may not vote for Obama because he's black is a legitimate concern in the general election, and, certainly should be discussed openly and candidly, as we would ANY potentially limiting factor of support for our nominee in the general election.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5036860&mesg_id=5037071

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:13 PM

44. I will speak for myself here

but one of the problems I had with Obama was that he wasn't addressing our issues on the campaign trail and thus I felt he would give short shrift to them while in office. I felt Warren was a symptom and not the disease. I think people who are saying that Sanders needs to address those issues while campaigning have a valid issue. That said, parsing words when they are said is a problem. I am glad he is speaking out on these issues now and hope he does more of it.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:28 PM

51. Thanks for the info.

 

Read respect your posts.

"I think not being assholes to people is part of why we make progress. How's your progress?"

This.

I need to remember this as well.


Rick Warren, Bluenorthwest, was and still is a very discouraging and ugly surprise to me.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #38)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:38 PM

59. Good point. n/t.

 

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:10 PM

42. I'm glad he is

He has the absolute best message and record of any candidate for people of color. He should be talking to them about it.

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Response to BrotherIvan (Reply #42)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:14 PM

46. I'm glad he is, as well, BrotherIvan

...he's a very intelligent and eloquent speaker who has a great deal to offer.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #46)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:21 PM

48. I think all of the issues are important but the murdering cops

are urgent. I would like us to all call on Obama to focus on the problem right now while he is in office, before another person dies. It is too important to wait until the elections. The DOJ needs to get Mrs. Marilyn Mosby to come in there and bring some Baltimore justice with her. There needs to be a federal Internal Affairs Bureau set up that has oversight over these racist-infested departments.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:25 PM

50. Window dressing. You're ridiculous.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #50)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:44 PM

64. ridiculous to hope that this effort comprises more than lip service from a politician?

...you protest too much.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #64)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:00 AM

79. No. I really don't. You're trying too hard.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #79)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:13 AM

84. your concern for my efforts is noted

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Response to bigtree (Reply #84)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:16 AM

85. The "Your concern is noted" thing is kinda played out. nt

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #79)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:15 AM

116. "you're ridiculous" You're not trying hard enough.

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Response to Cha (Reply #116)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:20 AM

118. Is Obama trying hard enough to fix all these problems?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #118)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:22 AM

120. Bernie needs to try harder.. that's what he said anyway.. we'll see.

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Response to Cha (Reply #120)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:36 AM

124. This idea that Bernie isn't good enough on minority concerns is a manufactured issue.

The truth will continue to set Bernie free.

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Response to Ed Suspicious (Reply #124)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:38 AM

127. his own words.. “We’re going to significantly increase that,” the Democratic presidential hopeful to

told reporters after a morning campaign stop here."

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Response to Cha (Reply #127)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:46 AM

130. What? He's going to increase his mentions of success? He's going to tell people what he's done on

ethnic minority issues? So what? You have a problem with this? You seem to be trying to spin it as some sort of proclamation that he is weak on minority issues, when the reality is that he's fantastic on minority issues, and his statement reads to me like he's going to modify the way or frequency he tells his story. Good. Whatever. Where is your issue with this?

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Response to Cha (Reply #120)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:36 AM

126. Why isn't Obama trying harder, he's the President?

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Response to aspirant (Reply #126)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:39 AM

128. It's only you saying he isn't.. so many in the AA community love President Obama.

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Response to Cha (Reply #128)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:53 AM

134. The ones behind bars

and recipients of police brutality, murder and racial profiling?

They love him because he hasn't fixed things?

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:48 PM

66. His "pet issue" of economics? Whether people can afford food, health care, and education....

 

To dismiss that as "pet issue" is beyond offensive.


TPP is racist.

Walmart economics is racist.

The wave of foreclosures and evictions was racist.

Closing 50 public schools in Chicago is racist.

Shutting off the water to thousands in Detroit is racist.

Trade policies that destroy black communities are racist.

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Response to Cheese Sandwich (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:54 PM

74. I can 'afford food'

...yet as a minority, I'm still subjected to abject racism.

To ignore that to the exclusive focus on economics is offensive to me, as if all blacks are poor and disadvantaged.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #74)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:56 PM

76. "To ignore that"

I think I see your problem now...

When you see evidence that Sanders isn't ignoring it, as you say, you just discount it and then forget that it exists.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #76)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:04 AM

81. I didn't discount it. I made the observation that 2 minutes in a campaign isn't enough

...no substitute for elevating those issues we face today to a national level of discussion by consistently giving them priority in his campaign rhetoric.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #81)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:12 AM

83. Read your own post. I will make it easy for you.

You say:

"To ignore that to the exclusive focus on economics is offensive to me,"

MY QUESTION: Does that not imply that it is Sanders who is "ignoring" issues related directly to Black people?

And so: When I post a NATIONAL CNN discussion where he DIRECTLY confronts the issue of police violence and, instead of hiding behind weasel words, DIRECTLY says it is black people who are more targeted, you DO discount it and continue to say Bernie "ignores".

So umm, yeah, that is a dictionary definition of discounting.

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #83)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:22 AM

87. let me make it 'easy' for you

...I'm putting you back on ignore. Discuss this with yourself.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #87)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:27 AM

89. I understand.

It sucks when people call your shit out.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #74)


Response to bigtree (Reply #74)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:46 AM

131. Bernie has never ignored that.

 

he just didn't lead with it in the first month of the campaign. HRC(who you haven't challenged on this) has spent decades not only ignoring anti-oppression issues, but, as a founder of the DLC, pushed Democrats to stop talking about institutional bigotry and police violence and the fascism of the "prison-industrial complex" and run instead as "law and order" candidates(we all know what "law and order" is code for)she championed prison construction, mandatory minimums and the death penalty(even though violent crime rates were falling from the late Eighties on), and she was just fine with the "welfare reformers" equating blackness with welfare fraud, idleness, drug abuse and widespread out of wedlock childbirth.

All of that is far worse than Bernie not mentioning police violence in the first few speeches of his campaign, yet those who relentlessly attack Bernie, even if they don't back HRC, give her a pass on decades of betrayal because of a handful of words from a handful of podiums. Why is that? Why not call her out on actions, deeds, that are far worse than omissions in a stump speech?

And why act as if decades of actual anti-oppression work on Bernie's behalf, work carried on when few people in oppressed groups live in his state and he has nothing to gain politically from doing this work, are treated as though they simply don't count?

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #131)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:17 PM

178. Another great post. Your sentence in the 1st paragraph, beginning w/ "HRC has spent decades"

Should be spread far and wide. It really lays it all out there.



And of course the final sentence about Bernie's *decades* of anti-oppression work, from which he had nothing to gain politically, is right on as well.

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Response to kath (Reply #178)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 07:02 PM

210. Hillary has a long history of pandering.

 

In 2004 many polls were published showing that America was a "Christian nation," with all the attendant Sunday-morning talk show pomp-and-circumstance and the right-wing radio gloating. Thus, when confronted with the gay marriage issue, Hillary pandered to Christian Conservatives (note the use of Christian Conservative phrasing):

https://www.catholicvote.org/video-hillary-clinton-marriage-is-sacred-bond-between-man-and-woman/

“I believe marriage is…a sacred bond between a man and a woman….a fundamental bedrock principle that it exists between a man and woman, going back into the midst of history, as one of the founding, foundational institutions of history and humanity and civilization. And that it’s primary principle role during those milennia has been the raising and socializing of children for the society into which they are to become adults.”


In 2011, after a brutal air war campaign that reduced Libya to a smoking ruin and plunged the African nation into a downward spiral of misery and chaos, all based on trumped-up lies about "genocide," Hillary pandered to jingoistic American Exceptionalists who get a vicarious rush from the imposition of American military might. Note the paraphrasing of Julius Caesar, not thought of as history's greatest progressive:



Now, as the primary campaign is heating up, Hillary is issuing statements declaring solidarity with LGBTQ Americans:

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/gay-marriage-supreme-court-ruling-hillary-clinton-boost-119475.html

In her statement, Clinton hinted that the Supreme Court’s ruling hadn’t put the issue to bed. “For too many LGBT Americans who are subjected to discriminatory laws, true equality is still just out of reach,” she said. “While we celebrate today, our work won’t be finished until every American can not only marry, but live, work, pray, learn and raise a family free from discrimination and prejudice. We cannot settle for anything less.”


Likewise, with respect to the Charleston shootings:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/06/23/hillary-clinton-takes-her-message-of-racial-reconciliation-to-missouri/

“I appreciate the actions begun yesterday by the governor and others in South Carolina to remove the Confederate flag from the statehouse, recognizing it as a symbol of our nation’s racist past that has no place in our present or our future," she said. "It shouldn’t fly there, it shouldn’t fly anywhere.”


Are these latter statements pandering? It's an open question. Hillary's record on issues of sexual orientation and race are spotty - see the 2004 quote above, and Ken Burch's post RE: Hillary's support for the prison industry that preys on young black men. One could certainly look with a jaded eye on Hillary's recent statements and conclude that she is looking for good press from a recent tragedy and a landmark Supreme Court ruling. Given that she appears to have no problem saying whatever her audience wants to hear, it's not out of the question.

And that's a problem for a campaign based entirely on optics - the appearance of insincerity is a deal-killer. She just doesn't have the established track record to lend her positions the credibility she needs. One way to deflect attention from her record is to project onto her opponent the weaknesses that some might see in Hillary. Thus, endless questioning of Bernie Sanders for his imaginary lack of concern.

Disingenous? Of course. But such a course of action has the added bonus that when these disingenuous posts get called out for what they are, the line of attack can be switched to a semantic argument and the victim card can be played.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sat Jun 27, 2015, 11:49 PM

67. Posting tips 101!

Non-meta post: "Sanders says he will significantly step up his minority outreach"

Meta post: "You accused us! But look! Even Sanders agrees! So there!"

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:06 AM

82. " economic success for many black Americans" < Has there been a black-owned gold strike?

 

35 fucking percent unemployment among men in some black communities isn't economic success, or places with 35% in poverty and 65% considered working poor - and it's almost as disrespectful as someone with a confederate flag on their garage wall to pretend otherwise for some political hit piece.

Hey, you know what DID insulate them from discrimination? Federal employment, one of the few color-blind opportunities. But that was shut off in the rush to keep the deficit down so as to pretend to a recovery that doesn't really exist. Speaking of a "token recitation", that is. (Thank you for saving me all that typing, btw).

So it's entirely possible that Bernie, in doing ANYTHING, will do more.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #82)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:20 AM

86. those issues are important

...and comparing my view to that of confederate flag-waving racists is despicable.

But no one should pretend that the benefit for blacks will automatically keep pace with the white middle or working-class. they haven't, so far. How do you account for the wide disparity in income and wealth?

What remark that referred to is that even an ideal of black success, however realized, doesn't insulate blacks from the other issues downplayed or given low priority in candidate rhetoric.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #86)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:33 AM

91. "despicable"< Is a word I also use when people pretend that others conditions are better than they

 

are, so as to profit from it or marginalize others to make themselves look bigger.

You are correct. No one should pretend. So you should stop writing about the economic success you pretend they had to make your point.

Your remark didn't say an ideal, it referred to actual.

Damn right those issues are important. Like the people lives are important, important enough to be looked at accurately and professionally, not rewritten to meet the need of a drive-by political attack.

cya




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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #91)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:44 AM

94. you're telling me what I was referring to?

...that looks to be the problem in your responses to me.

Let's not pretend that the economic progress Sanders is talking about is automatically going to translate into equitable economic success for black Americans without progress on other issues like discrimination, political representation, educational access and opportunity and the like.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:32 AM

90. Wait a min

 

People have to audacity to say even imply that Bernie is a racist say

Hrc is the one who supported a bill that allowed for more prisons to be opened which were pipeline for the mass incarceration which her Husband just recently apologized for.

The same clinton said that Obama couldn't win because he did poorly with rural white ?

call Bernie all you want old, far left but don't you dare lable him a racist.


This Black guy is supporting Bernie because he understand the ststruggle. What has HRC done for black people ?

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Response to CTBlueboy (Reply #90)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:35 AM

93. Yes, the same Hillary that said that the hardworking Americans

Are the white ones.

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Response to CTBlueboy (Reply #90)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:48 AM

95. I haven't 'labeled him a racist'

...it's a poor deflection to suggest I have.

It's another weak deflection to point to Hillary, especially since that's not my candidate of choice.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #95)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:50 AM

96. I'm out, folks

...discuss freely among yourselves.

Be kind to each other.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #95)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 12:59 AM

97. So I ask you this

 

Who is your candidate ?

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Response to CTBlueboy (Reply #90)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:08 AM

112. Nobody implied Bernie is a racist.. that's pure hogwash from his so called advocates on DU who

aren't doing him any favors.

And, bigtree is not a Hillary Supporter.

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Response to CTBlueboy (Reply #90)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 08:48 AM

163. There is that strawman again. No one called Bernie a racist. Nt

 

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:12 AM

102. Those who pushed this ignored his 50 year record

 

It was a strawman, IMHO.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:57 AM

106. Meta. There was a political point there, but it got drowned out by the OP's posturing.

 

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #106)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:05 AM

109. You're trying to shut down discussion.. not gonna happen.

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Response to Cha (Reply #109)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 03:55 AM

135. There's no valid discussion that needs to happen here. There was never a real issue.

 

You're still treating Bernie as if he can't be trusted on these issues and there was never any justification to imply that about him. besides, it's not really possible to be anti-oppression when you take corporate donations and corporations don't want personal or institutional bigotry to end-it's too useful to the wealthy in playing divide and conquer.

Bernie was never indifferent to police violence or institutional bigotry. He doesn't have to talk more about those issues than about economic issues to prove himself on this.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #135)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:02 AM

139. Sez you.. that means less than nothing to me.

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Response to Cha (Reply #139)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 04:10 AM

141. No other candidates have a better record on anti-oppression issues.

 

All HRC has is a trivial handful of good speeches delivered in the last two months that have no relation to anything she's ever done i office or in public life. By themselves speeches mean nothing.

Why ride him on this when he's done nothing to deserve your distrust?

You'd get far less in terms of actual policies from any other candidate in the race-not O'Malley, not Chafee, not HRC.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 06:30 AM

157. There was no real claim that you called Bernie a racist

 

The more damning things were the implications that

A) Bernie didn't care about anti-oppression issues very much(an assertion his lifetime of activism disproves)

B) That Bernie was somehow hoping to appeal to racist or sexist or homophobic voters(something that had no basis in fact at all).

Will you agree that Bernie is not guilty of either of those offenses?

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 07:46 AM

159. No, I'm pretty sure the people accused of implying Sanders was a racist were

accused because they were implying Sanders was a racist. Plenty of other people complained, including AA Bernie supporters, without adding the implication to their posts.

But nice try on rewriting recent history. Too soon though, too many people actually still remember the posts in question.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #159)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 10:37 AM

165. nonexistent. Just add that word to your subject and that is all that is needed.

 

The rest is strawman.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 08:24 AM

160. Economics isn't his "pet issue". It's his lens through which he sees the world.

 

His world view, his political philosophy sees the economy as the central point from which all issues must be dealt with.

It won't be easy for him.

I am certain he truly cares deeply about minorities and has a great record. But he just thinks a certain way and has since he was a teenager when his brother leant him books to read….

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #160)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:13 PM

174. It almost sounds like some people won't believe he's anti-oppression

 

until he endorses "free market" economics-the system that will always stop us from creating an oppression-free world.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:05 PM

171. Popcorn...time

 

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #171)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:18 PM

179. Hillary's supporters are cherry-picking

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Response to Rosa Luxemburg (Reply #179)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:22 PM

180. It is worst than just cherry picking

 

it is 2008 all over again.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #180)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:25 PM

181. We will get the kitchen sink again and the Xeroxing

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 01:15 PM

177. The campaign has moved to more diverse states.

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Response to CanadaexPat (Reply #177)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 02:01 PM

184. interesting argument

...suggesting he deliberately downplayed those issues in predominately white-regions.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Sun Jun 28, 2015, 09:29 PM

192. It's not. Hopefully they will feel a connection.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Mon Jun 29, 2015, 04:35 AM

195. I think Bernie will do very well addressing those issues.

He speaks from the heart and I'll look carefully at what he says. I agree with him that moving to the left economically will greatly benefit black and hispanic people. I hope he addresses the black lives matter movement specifically in terms of police brutality and prison reform. I'm learning more about O'Malley and I'm impressed with what I've seen so far. I'm looking at Hillary carefully in this regard too.

There's nearly a year between now and the primaries. Plenty of time for every candidate to make the case as to why they should be our next President. I don't feel animosity toward any of these three candidates. I think they are all part of the solutions, not part of the problems. I feel President Obama is the best President in my lifetime, and one of the best in American history. I feel he helped avert disaster, and set the wheels in motion toward universal health coverage and increasing taxes on billionaires. Now it's time to build on our gains and move further left. If we want a President to govern further left we've got to give them a further left Congress. That's not rocket science. It's Civics 101.

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Response to bigtree (Original post)

Tue Jun 30, 2015, 01:10 PM

228. What amazing powers you wield! Your criticism went back in time and made him

part of the civil rights movement in the 1960s/1970s.

Now, you gonna criticise the race baiting at the end of Clinton's 2008 campaign? Or did your amazing powers make that vanish?

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