What Black Lives Matter Gets Wrong About Bernie Sanders - Reuters

[WillyT]

What Black Lives Matter gets wrong about Bernie Sanders
REUTERS/Mike Stone
Ryan Cooper - TheWeek
July 22, 2015


REUTERS/Mike Stone

<snip>

Bernie Sanders, as yet the only challenger in the Democratic primary to get any real traction against Hillary Clinton, recently hit something of a pothole in his campaign. It happened last weekend at Netroots Nation, the annual meeting of liberal activists and base voters.

During a panel, Sanders tried to give his basic stump speech, which heavily focuses on economics and education. He was repeatedly interrupted by Black Lives Matter protesters. The idea, presumably, was to get him to address questions of racism alone, particularly as it relates to police brutality.

This he did, pointing to the prejudice of the criminal justice system and other factors, but also by repeatedly circling back to his favored topics of better-paying jobs and cheaper education. To many of the protesters, it seemed he was evading the question. Worse, he was clearly irritated by the constant interruption; he talked over the chanting, and afterwards reportedly canceled planned meetings with the same activists.

This is an unfortunate turn of events. However, it is a good opportunity for Sanders to polish his campaign message. He certainly could use some work on his racial justice language and policy, but he is not wrong to focus major attention on economic issues. Economic justice is not an alternative to racial justice — it is a fundamental component of it.

Of course, that is not to say that racial justice is wholly contained within political economy alone. That also is clearly false. Black Americans (and Latinos and others) face a great many non-class barriers, from violent, racist police to practically universal implicit bias.

However, many activists have endorsed the opposite extreme, arguing that race and class are basically unrelated. Here's Jamelle Bouie:

For Black Lives Matter activists, this is almost an insult. To them, racism is orthogonal to class: They’re two different dimensions of disadvantage, and to improve the picture on one isn’t always to improve the picture for the other. <Slate>

If Bouie is correctly representing the protesters' view, then it can only be described as a gross error. "Orthogonal" (at right angles) typically means completely unrelated. But even if we grant a softer interpretation, thinking of class and race as loosely related, that is still to badly understate the case.

For class is not independent from racism, it is a major mechanism by which the racist system operates...

<snip>

More: http://theweek.com/articles/567495/what-black-lives-matter-gets-wrong-about-bernie-sanders

[gollygee]

1. He isn't wrong to focus major attention to economics.

He just needs to talk about race more. Racial issues outside of class as well as how race issues and class issues work together.

But economic stuff is his strong point and he should of course make that a major focus. I don't think anyone's questioning that. That's also what makes him most different from Clinton.

[TDale313]

5. If you've paid attention the last few days...

It seems he's/they've gotten that message and is talking much more directly on social justice issues and admitting they have work to do in outreach and in speaking to these subjects while also saying he's very proud of his record. I genuinely think recent events could end up being a positive thing for him. I hope my fellow Sanders' supporters follow his lead.

[gollygee]

6. Good!

Racism needs to be on the front burner, and someone running for president needs to be among those putting it there. That doesn't mean not having economics be a major focus, it means incuding discussion of racism very regularly in his campaign.

[bravenak]

2. I wish this idiocy would stop.

Black lives matter was right! Just as right as ACT UP! Now stop!

[WillyT]

4. Please...I'm Begging You... Define The Idiocy...

[bravenak]

11. Not bothering to ask black people anything.

Taking about us like highly intellectual know nothings and not listening when we tell you what the problem is.
They dismissed what we were saying was the problem and offered up solutions without hearing.
We know what we want and why this is happening. For 40 years white liberals have lectured us and preached to us and we have fallen behind and been tossed in jail and are dying in the streets.

We are dying. They are worried about us not being nice and respectful and having a meeting and LISTENING to THEM. The NAACP has been having polite meetings for a hundred fucking years!

Sandra Bland Black Lives Matters Activist was murdered by the police. And they wonder why that speech had to be interrupted? They lost one of their own and fuck polite. It is your job to be just as mad as they.
He was supposed to get fired UP! He was a protestor. They went to the EXACT person they should have gone to. Period.

[WillyT]

26. You Are Correct Of Course... Yet...

"Black lives matter! Black lives matter!" they shouted toward O'Malley, and began a call-and-repeat rallying cry that activists have been using in the wake of the death of 28-year-old Sandra Bland, who died in police custody last week. "If I die in police in custody!" one of the chants went, "Burn everything down! That's the only way mother******* like you listen!"

Link: http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/politics/bernie-sanders-netroots-nation-black-lives-matter/

Does not bring unity.

Quite the opposite.

[bravenak]

28. If there were unity it would come from us screaming black lives matter.

And getting a response from every white person in the room of 'BLACK LIVES MATTER!!' There is no unity in death, my friend. Just death.

I will send you a link in a few for the Kos Diary that tells a story from a black woman at the event. I'd live it if you took a while and read the comments on Kos from black Kos too.

[WillyT]

29. Please Do...

[bravenak]

31. Here it is.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/22/1404615/-A-black-woman-s-negative-encounter-with-a-Sanders-supporter-after-NN15-BlackLivesMatter-protest

[WillyT]

48. Thank You For That...

[bravenak]

49. You're welcome!

[Number23]

64. You really should post that as an OP here or in AA

The 8 Bernie supporters that haven't put you on ignore by now could really learn alot from this woman's very real, very relevant and very powerful retelling

http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/07/guest-post-a-perspective-of-the-netroots-nation-blacklivesmatter-protest-from-a-person-of-color.html

As I was contemplating my decision, I overheard an older white man say, “These people are animals, why don’t they go back to Baltimore?” And, as I looked around, most people looked annoyed. In that moment, I decided to stand there, chant, clap and sing along. I knew that by standing there, the folks around me would have to sit in their discomfort knowing that I was watching.

And keep in mind, this was at NETROOTS NATION, not a Tea Party rally. I'm willing to bet everything in my pocket the man who called those protestors -- who at the time were only SINGING -- "animals" was a card carrying Dem and probably one of them "liberals" to boot.

I was disappointed when Martin O’Malley said “white lives matter.” It was completely tone-deaf. I was even more disappointed that Bernie Sanders’ answer to structural racism was about the Affordable Care Act, raising the minimum wage, and free college.

Sandra Bland had just gotten her dream job, she had a college education, and she was the member of a prestigious sorority. But none of that was enough to save her life. I was disappointed that Sanders did not understand that income inequality is the symptom, but racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia are the disease, and when those intersect, the consequences can be fatal. If you aren’t prepared to address that, you aren’t prepared to be President of the United States.

...After the protest, random people walked up to me to ask what I thought. When I told them I was disappointed in the candidates’ responses, they would tell me that Bernie marched with Martin Luther King. When I told them that wasn’t relevant, they would tell me that he marched with Farrakhan. When I said that wasn’t enough, they would tell me he wanted free college. As the conversations would go on, their voices would get louder, their fingers would start pointing, and I would get frustrated, end the conversation, and walk away. I tried to engage with many people, until one guy cornered me at the Netroots Nation after-party, put his hands on my shoulders, and told me that the protestors had no class and that Bernie Sanders deserves our respect for 50 years of fighting for civil rights. I stopped engaging at that point. I no longer felt safe in a progressive space.

Thank you for posting that.

[bravenak]

65. I should just copy what you posted here.

I think I will post this up. Thank you for that suggestion. On my way!

[Bobbie Jo]

70. THIS needs it's own space

This needs to be an OP smack dab in the middle of this board.

Thank you both for posting that.

[JustAnotherGen]

123. Adding to Journal

Thanks!

[JI7]

36. they were emotional over what happened with Sandra Bland, this wasn't some timed formal debate

it was a protest . did you think they went up there thinking there was going to be a scholarly debate.

for them it was about bringing attention .

Sanders and Omalley both get it .

[scarletwoman]

39. The only reason - the ONLY FUCKING REASON - it "does not bring unity" is because

self-important butthurt white liberals are absolutely REFUSING to give up their perceived position of ultimate authority to determine what is proper and to dictate to black folks how they should behave.

White liberals persist in seeing the black struggle in the abstract, they simply cannot deal with true radicalism, with raw searing emotional pain. It's just so... messy and icky.

So you just go ahead and tsk tsk about "unity" - why the hell would the BLM even begin to think that those white liberals are on their side? Those white liberals whining all over the internet about a fucking stump speech being disrupted by a REAL movement by REAL revolutionaries are making damn sure there'll be no friggin' "unity" anytime soon.

[mmonk]

50. I joined the Moral Monday movement under the auspices of Rev. Barber

to bring together all races, all gender types (including LGBT), environmentalists, unions, all religious clergy with a social conscience, the old occupy movement, etc. to work on environmental concerns, racial issues as they relate to government and police, to restore the voting rights act, expansion of medicaid, disability rights, stop the privatization of public schools, fair housing issues, peace issues and of course, creating an economic system that leaves no one behind. That's just how this particular "white liberal for Bernie Sanders" rolls. I look for movement politics and coalitions to bring about a better America and fight the extreme rightwing takeover of our institutions. That is the unity I speak of. I understand the horrible institutional racism that is leading to the harassment and murder of many of PoC and the life of fear it induces. I don't experience it as a victim of it in that regard because of my skin pigment. But I nor the people I work with (which is a multiracial group directed by the NC NAACP called the Forward Together movement) are aloof to the situation nor think it secondary in reference to other matters. So I am not a divider by nature nor an aloof uncaring person. If you can't understand my post, I can't make you understand it. But I'd like to able to say something I believe without hijacks. But that is only what I would like. In doesn't really matter what I want. I can accept just being able to say something I want to express.

[scarletwoman]

59. Let me break it down to you in the simplest terms I can think of.

Stop trying to defend yourself, and defend the Black Lives Matter protestors instead. Period.

No caveats, no offering advice, no telling them they should do their thing differently. JUST DEFEND THEM and be on their side.

Anything less than that is just a message that you know better, that you don't respect their own decisions about how they want to fight for their own cause, that you think your world view is superior to theirs.

[7962]

60. The cops just LOVE this stupid shit. Plays right into their hands. Nobody sees it.

[Orrex]

51. Why? I'm sure that if you just sit back and wait...

A white man will be along shortly to tell you what to think and feel.

Patience!

[bravenak]

52. They truly are the best at such things. Superior.

[zeemike]

75. And yet Sanders and O'Malley have no power to do anythinig.

And this shit has been going on how long now?...did anyone shout down Obama or Holder who definatly DO have the power to act?

The hard facts are the Sanders and O'Malley were the loow hanging fruit...they have no access to anyone in the administration or Hillary either. And never will have an opertunity to shout them down..
But that low hanging fruit is also their best shot of geting something done and they need to know that.

[bravenak]

76. So they should demand nothing from candidates?

Why do white progressives try to blame racism in the US SOLELY on those two black men and loretta lynch, a black woman? Do they know that it sounds racist to black people? Like they think whites have no respinsibility for their own racism and this system of white supremacy?
I hope people realize that the nation is not getting any whiter and that they cannot intellectualize away their own responsibility for changing the system that holds us down to bring them up.

[zeemike]

78. I did not say that...we all should demand from candidates.

And those demands were met by Sanders...he spoke out about it pretty clearly...but was it enough for you?...what else should he have said?
But are you holding me and all the other white progressives responsible?...when we and Sanders too are doing our best to support you and change the very things you are talking about?

We are not your enemy just because we share the same skin colour as a racist...but it sure seems you think we are.
And the only solution for that could be separation from each other...division that will serve the racist more than it will serve you.

[bravenak]

79. You guys have to learn how to talk to black people without SOUNDING racist.

If you want Bernie to get the black vote it will NOT happen if you guys are seething with hate and dissapointment for Obama. Straight up. We love him and do not give two shits about anybody intellectualizing about how they 'really hate him for policy reasons!' We hear the same thing from republicans that you guys are using as your talking point and we do not trust that kinda talk. Serious. Lose the Holder Obama Lynch talking point if you want to have even a chance at a dialogue or even talking to black people about your candidate. We will always perfer Obama to whoever is up for election.

[zeemike]

81. OK then I am through talking to black people on the internet.

Because none of the black people I know in the real world would ever say such things to me.
I will sit down and shut up...nothing I say will ever be taken as anything but white privilege or out and out racism...because you say so and you know me better than real people do.

That is all.

[bravenak]

89. Yes. Well look at some of the shit said to me over and over.

[MADem]

93. Did you ever stop and think that "the black people" that you "know in the real world"

have a view of you where they feel they can't speak honestly with you? And that's why they don't say the sorts of things that "the black people on the internet" will tell you?

What you need to do is not explain, not excuse, not justify, not affect hurt feelings because no one seems to understand you. It's not ABOUT you, or your feelings. What you need to do is SUPPORT.

This is one of the defining issues of this election, and HIGH TIME. The GOP has been dog whistling since Nixon on this matter, violence against people of color by "authority" is getting worse, not better, and it is way past time all issues of inequality got dragged out in the light of day and given the once-over.

[zeemike]

96. No I don't ever think that.

I trust that they will be honest with me as I am honest with them...and have had many honest conversations.
I don't have the expectations that they really hate me and think I am a racist but are just trying to spare my feelings...that is nonsense in honest relationships.

And what you are suggesting, that I shut up and not express MY feelings is not an honest relationship. I am not ashamed of my feelings because I have done nothing to be ashamed of. I support them in the real world not pander to them on the internet out of fear that if I don't they will call me a racist...Do you not understand what an honest relationship is about?

Dishonest relationships are toxic. The best example of it is something that was said to happen at a speech that Ralph Abernathy was giving...two white men came up to him after the speech and shook his hand and praised him for a wonderful speach...as they were leaving one said to the other "He's a good old N####, we will gas him last".

I don't judge people by what they say, I judge them by what they do, because words can be deceiving and so often are. And I trust black people as well as white to do the same, and I think they do. Most people are honest and most of them appreciate it in others.

[MADem]

100. I don't always share my views of people and their attitudes in real life.

I live across the street from a Republican. We're polite enough to avoid political topics most of the time, but on the odd occasion where he says something that I find to be bullshit, I have noticed that a pregnant pause followed by a subject change is sufficient to let him know I am saying anything from "Disagree" to "Horse shit!" without actually bothering to express the sentiment. Some people do it more subtly, and do the "Look over there--squirrel!" technique to change the subject. Some people will say something vague to move the conversation along to something less contentious. Not everyone will tell you, or me, or anyone, the whole truth.

I'm not telling you to shut up and not express your feelings. White people have never been constrained from expressing their views. What I am saying is that being silent and LISTENING to what people are saying, without any But-but-but, is the first step to understanding.

You don't need to REBUT blm truth with your truth. It's not a contest.

blm wanted the issues they are fighting for--and these are issues of survival--addressed, acknowledged, validated--and made a priority. It's obvious, based on candidates' statements in the press, that they finally got the attention of some people who can make a difference.

I find it fascinating that so many people who supported ACT UP! and Code Pink are having trouble with this protest group. We're not supposed to be "comfortable" in our Big Tent. There are supposed to be rabble-rousers and questioners at either end, pushing and prodding and stirring up and making noise. That's democracy for ya, and that's the Democratic Party.

This is a helpful article in understanding the POV: http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/07/white-progressives-get-a-taste-of-anger-frustration-as-blacklivesmatter-activists-upstage-bernie-sanders.html

[zeemike]

104. Well I know how to listen to people and I try to understand their POV

But part of havinig a conversation is it being both ways...I listen to them and they listen to me...that is how it works...and in my experience most people do that really well, but then maybe I have not been in contact with real assholes all the much in life, because I tend not to go around them that much if they are.
Mutual respect is the key...but it is not mutural if you are insulted when you give your view...or when you are accused of something when you give it.

But take Code Pink, which BTW I support, they went after those responsible not those not responsible that was on their side...just because they could and could get attention doing it.
And they could have goten more headlines if they had attacked their own because the media would have been all over it...but attacking those responsible made only a mention on the news.
So I understand the stratigy but not the goal.
The facts are that BLM could never get near those responsible...they are too insulated...so the low hanging fruit, the ones on their side, was all they had. And Hillary had the wisdom not to even show up.

[MADem]

105. Like I said--there's nothing to rebut re: blm. That is their truth and they want

America to hear it. It doesn't "work" like an exchange of ideas.

You're just not getting it. This is not a "conversation." This is a declaration of what's wrong, from the perspective of a large and growing segment of the population.

White lives have always mattered--that's why the little blonde girl who gets kidnappped, or murdered in Aruba, eats up airtime, but the black children that kind of thing happens to gets no coverage. White lives have always mattered--that's why the police who rough up the white guy lose their jobs, but the ones who kill the black guys walk.

Hillary went into the NN war room last time around, it's not like she's unaware of that playing field--and she has black/latino staffers who tell her which venues are most productive. She also has a history--some might try to denigrate it or besmirch it, but that's a separate issue. Her people are confident that she is understood and that her outreach remains vibrant and active.

That said, this is not about her, or Sanders, or even O'Malley. It's putting an issue on the table. Some people are angry that a high visibility event was used to put that issue out there--but that's how a cause gets attention--ya gotta go where the reporters are. And it looks like it worked--judging by some of the howls of pain that followed the event. AND judging by the fact that all the candidates have a "blm" folder in the portfolio.

The way some white progressives have approached the issue is terribly disappointing. Sanders gets it -- he modified his standard stump speech to accommodate what he learned at NN15. Some of his supporters, though, are slow to follow along. It's sad.

http://www.eclectablog.com/2015/07/photos-blacklivesmatter-protest-at-netroots-nation-through-the-eyes-of-a-photographer.html








As far as CODE PINK goes, your memory fails you. You seem to forget that they screwed up Valerie Plame's IMPORTANT testimony, to the point that all the media covered was a bunch of idiots wearing pink waving signs and making faces, and they made all of her testimony footage unusable. So, if you like them so much, remember that they not only screwed up Plame's opportunity to speak out against how the Bush regime systematically hung her out to dry, they enabled the GOP as well by effectively silencing her. See? They were more concerned about THEIR issues, not yours....and that's to the point that they'll even snuggle up with the Paulbots if it works for them. Their loyalty is to THEMSELVES. That's their founder to the right, note the sign:



No one "owes" Sanders anything. Nor O'Malley. Nor Clinton. This is what the primaries shake out--how people are going to deal with diverse communities and diverse concerns. The candidates have taken it onboard--some of their supporters have not.

[zeemike]

107. Well I have not rebutted anything they have said.

But never the less it will be portrayed that way.
And no amount of repeating all the times and places I have supported what they are complaining about will change it, because I offer my own perspective, which is thought of as rebutting them.

It is a no win effort...one I think I need to stop doing here where it is always met with the same accusations and insults...no room for anything but yes yes yes...not a discussion but an echo.

Well that is not a winning stratigy...you don't win by dividing people up into warring groups that each insist on absolute word for word agreement...which makes me wonder if winning is the objective or just ego and a desire to control things.

But I do give you credit, you do actually discuss and make your point with as little insult and name calling as possable...that I do appreciate.

[MADem]

109. You wanted your say, though, and framed their cry for help as half of a conversation.

This is not a "Yes, BUT" thing. The answer to "Black lives matter" is NOT "White lives matter, tooooooooo." See, white lives have always mattered. That's not even at issue.

I am trying to explain the framing as clearly as I can manage, but I guess I'm not getting through. It's a difficult concept if you're not seeing it from the perspective of someone who has lost a loved one to police violence, or knows someone in that situation.

See, it's not taking anything away from the dominant culture-- those "white lives"-- to point out that the black lives of young men and women are getting KILLED by police, for starters, and are victims of institutionalized racism every moment of every day.

It's not about "supporting" minority causes or in the case of Sanders, "Marching with Dr. King," .... it's not about the past, or a "credential check." This is a cry for help--a plea to put this issue forward, to prioritize it, to make it a real front-and-center plank in the party platform. People can either say "I hear you, I will stand with you, I will help you, your cause is my cause, let's change the culture by correcting these inequities" .... or they can say "But-but-but I'm not a racist, and oh, vote for my candidate because--grumble/ungrateful--that's the best you're gonna get. The Republicans are way worse, you know!" That's just not good enough, anymore.

There's no sense in insulting people--you don't win anyone over that way. I mean, I'm always so convinced (not) when someone tells me that my views and my person are horrible because they don't align with someone else's! I try, mentally, anyway, to turn the other cheek (when people are really mean to me, I imagine a very specific cheek, but never mind that...hee hee!).

[zeemike]

111. That is not true...I never said but and have stood with them.

And there was no conversation with them I was a part of...the conversation was here and not about BLM, and I never said all lives matter...that was Hillary I believe right?
But I am tared with that brush because I questioned the wisdom of attacking the candidate most likely to actually do something about the problem of black people being killed in the streets.
Somehow that is framed as saying But but but and not standing with them...as if all actions they take are above any critical thought...which is foolish IMO to even think like that.

No movement has ever been perfect but the ones that fail are the ones who never learn because they think they are. And the ones who are successful are the ones who appreciate those who stand behind them even if they are not perfectly in line with them.
LBJ was a strait up racist, but you will never find MLK calling him out...he knew what he was but he was helpful and he did not try to drive him away. Nor did he try to drive white people away from the marches because they were not pure enough...the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

[MADem]

112. Let me try again.

These are your words. Now try to read them as though you are a young black adult who has lost a cousin or a friend to police violence. Just pretend you grew up with Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin or Sandra Bland. That's your reality. You're tired of watching children and adults get shot, choked, killed, hogtied, and brutalized by police or police wanna-bees, who then WALK after doing the killing.

From that perspective, in those shoes, read these comments:

And those demands were met by Sanders...he spoke out about it pretty clearly...but was it enough for you?...what else should he have said?.... We are not your enemy just because we share the same skin colour as a racist...but it sure seems you think we are.
And the only solution for that could be separation from each other...division that will serve the racist more than it will serve you.

That sounds a lot like "Take what we give you, or we'll go back to segregation." That may not have been your intent, but that's how it comes off--like a threat.

You keep coming back to "Your feelings." Again, this is not about your feelings. It's not about white people's feelings at all. It's about black people, and people who care about black people, saying that it's way past time that our institutions--and our politicians--pay attention to the fact that police are murdering our children and young adults based on their skin color. That this isn't right. That it needs to stop. That We, The People think this is important and we want this issue at or near the front of the line.

It's not about anyone "making you feel like" anything. Just listen, and say "Yes, that IS a complaint that deserves PRIORITY." Because it does. Don't say "Yes but I helped you before" or "Yes but you saying that makes it seem -and no, it doesn't -- like I'm a racist." Again, not about you. The people who are making this complaint don't want you to "do" anything, save nod, say "That's right" and stand up and applaud when the politicians say they'll give the matter the attention it deserves.

That's all that's needed. A little solidarity.

[zeemike]

113. That reply was to that individual

Not to BLM or to black people in general...but that is the thing here...you cannot comment to one person without it being taken as a reply to the entire race as as if that one person represented them all.

But there are lots of white kids killed in Iraq and Afghanistan even today...and if I post my outrage against that does that give me the right to claim no one should criticize me...that they should just sit down and shut up because you could never understand the pain I feel?

Well I never mentioned my "feelings"...it was my observatories. And no matter how many times I say it is wrong and it needs to stop you always spin it back to I don't care, and I don't care about their feelings...So I can never win this discussion because this is not honest to tar me with it over and over again, with no hope at all of ever being able to answer the charge against me...it is just repeated.
Frankly it reminds me of the Culture revolution in China under Mao...where people were publicly denounced for any perceived deviation from the party line.

It is circular and persistent and nothing I can say will change that...it is as close to bulling as it can be.
But if you want to know my feelings I will tell you...This (kind of conversational rhetoric) is divisive and I feel this is in large part why the Dem's lose so often in elections. They dwell on the negativity and create hostile attitudes even among their natural allies...good enough is never enough to satisfy.

[MADem]

114. "Kids getting killed in Iraq" is not a response to BLM, though.

Do you seriously think that black people are cheering for war in Iraq? I mean, come on! You don't have to say "But-but-Iraq." It's as relevant as saying "Outback Steakhouse will undercook your fish if you're not careful to tell them to check it." It's like...HUH? We're not TALKING about that!

And more to the point, those white kids that were getting killed in Iraq had black battle buddies...AND they were being killed by ENEMY combatants--not the American police on American streets.

As I've tried to explain, it's NOT a contest. You don't HAVE to reply. No one expects you to. No one is forcing you to stand up and swear an oath. But if you don't want to do that, don't talk first, hear later. Just listen. REALLY listen. This is a plea for justice. If you're convinced of the urgency of the argument, after you listen, and hopefully empathize and understand, then if you've a mind to, you can HELP by voicing your agreement that this is a topic that should take center stage in the primary and general elections.

No one is demanding that you hew to the "party line" but if you don't want to help, don't pipe up with segregation threats or comments about being mean to Bernie or complaints about soldiers in Iraq. Those issues have nothing to do with BLM. They aren't "in opposition to" this effort at all.

And, as I've said, white lives have ALWAYS mattered, so if you 'but-but' with that comment, that's like expecting a prize for saying that grass is green.

This is not divisive--it's a subject that anyone who claims the "liberal" label should have absolutely no trouble getting behind. Enough killing of young black adults by police. It needs to stop. Who would fight against that basic premise?

[zeemike]

115. It was not intended as a reply to them but to you.

As an example of the false narrative you have created...that because someone is concerned about something no matter how valid it is does not give them the mike and you must sit down and shut up...or stand accused of not caring or worse a racist.

But it is you that see it as a contest not me...I am not trying to beat them at anything...nor am I in competition with them...this is not a sporting event.

But still you imply I am not behind them because I chose to speak...and not to them but on a message board where discussions are what we are supposed to be doing...and tell me the only speech acceptable is agreement with everything they say...otherwise I am against them...
The false dichotomy over and over again.

Sorry if I don't agree with you but that's the way it is. And if it offends you put me in the public square and get everyone to berate me until I break down and cry or confess my sins...That is how the Red Gard did it...but you don't have to go as far as them and shoot me if I don't break down...humileation is usually the greater punishment.

[MADem]

116. I will try one more time, with a link. Maybe Larry can say it better than I....

I hope this gets the point across--it's NOT a "false narrative." It's a state of emergency, and a cry for help:


http://www.attn.com/stories/2464/larry-wilmore-black-lives-matter-all-lives-matter

"Why can't you say 'all lives matter?'" he continued with mock confusion. "I mean, it sounds like it makes sense."

There to brilliantly answer that question was comedian Felonious Munk.

"In the parlance of the hour, if I break my legs, I do not want the doctor telling me 'all legs should be healed,'" Munk explained. "I want the doctor to fix my leg."

"OK, so you're saying 'Black lives matter' is a specific cry for something," Wilmore stated, "whereas 'all lives matter' is a just a way of shutting down that cry."

http://www.alternet.org/media/5-minutes-larry-wilmore-explains-why-saying-alllivesmatter-offensive

"If I break my leg, I do not want the doctor telling me, 'All legs should be healed,'" Munk explained. "I want the doctor to fix my leg."

"So, basically," Wilmore asked, "You're saying 'black lives matter' is a specific cry for something, whereas 'all lives matter' is a non-sequitur?"

"There's not a sequitur to be found, brother Larry," Munk joked. "One does not attend a reading by Toni Morrison and interrupt her to say , Yes, but why have you not weighed in on the movie Minions?"

I hope you will have an ah-ha moment WRT this one day. It will just require a little reflection.

[zeemike]

117. I don't know why you keep telling me things I already know.

And pretending that I don't get it and need to be taught and that this conversation is about that.

I never said all lives mater nor did I ever endorse that in any way. THAT is the false narrative I am speaking about...and you keep implying that I did in some way or somehow support it..
It is just stunning to me that Hillary can say all lives matter and you keep bringing it up as if I said it.

If I did that to you it would make you angry and you know it

[MADem]

118. I'm just reading your comments, and coming to conclusions based on

what you are saying in your posts.

I gave you Larry's example to help you understand how people who are not white view the issue--I am not suggesting he (or Felonious) is quoting YOU, for goodness sake. I think you are being defensive about this matter, when there's no need. There's a learning curve on this for EVERYONE who isn't living the nightmare every day.

I wouldn't be 'made angry' by anything I read on DU. It's a message board, not a letter home.

[zeemike]

119. Well your conclusions are wrong then.

And it seems no matter how many times I say it or how many ways i say it you still don't believe me...as if I am some stealth troll and you can smell my racism over the internet.

And then you double down with "help you understand"and "There's a learning curve " as if I still am one...and complain I am being defensive...what would you expect when you are accused?...should I be submissive?

But we share one thing in common, I don't get angry about what is on the internet either...If I did I would die of a stroke because people have said far worse things to me than you have.

[MADem]

120. I am telling you how I am perceiving what you say, and I've said nothing to even

remotely suggest you are either a 'racist' (smell your racism? Really?) or a 'stealth troll.' I don't believe you are, and I've never said that you were either. Not sure where you are digging that up from--but it ain't from me.

If anything, you are accusing YOURSELF. You don't have to 'justify' the comment "Black Lives Matter." You don't have to explain, rebut, or one-up. No one is asking for that. It's not a question. It doesn't demand an answer or a justification.

It's -- as I said -- a cry for help. Nothing more.

I don't know what more I can do to get it across to you that it's not a YES BUT issue. And there IS a learning curve on this issue--not just for you, but for everyone who says "Yes but" and "White lives matter" and "All lives matter" after #blm speaks their truth. And that's every single POTUS candidate who has bothered to weigh in on the issue, thus far. They are being educated--they are doing a better job of adjusting to that curve than many, though. All of them have modulated their messaging to include this concern--and that is how primary contests work. Issues are raised, and candidates either address or ignore them--they're not ignoring this one.

When children are starving due to drought, no one says "Yes but." When New Orleans was flooded and people were dying and lost their homes, no one said "Yes but." When hurricanes flattened towns in Alabama, no one said "Yes but."

The people who are protesting #blm are simply saying that they are in a state of emergency, that their young people are being murdered by police. It's not a "Yes but" thing....it's a "That's TERRIBLE!" thing--it's a "What can we collectively do to solve this?" thing. It's a "Let's prioritize this on the national platform" thing.

It's not about you, or me, or anyone save the young people who are being threatened by--and some killed by-- police every day. And the activists who are publicizing their truth.

[zeemike]

121. Well we sure are getting nowhere.

But if you don't think I am a racist or a troll then why do you keep this up?
Insisting that I am saying "yes but" when I never said that and then going on about it as if you had not said the same thing now at least half a dozen times...and every reply I made it fell of def ears.

You keep pretending that you are just trying to educate me the implication is that you know and I just don't get it, like you are the school master and I am the indolent student not paying attention.

Well it is time to end this, I am way tired of it so score it as a victory because I gave up first...threw in the towel, cried uncle, however you want to think of it...I was not in this to win, there is no prize nor glory in playing word games on the internet.

[MADem]

122. What I'm trying to explain to you is that it's not about you at all.

It's not about how you feel or how you are perceived, but you keep taking offense.

It's about the people who are being victimized by police. It's about speaking up FOR them.

I am sorry that you are upset or annoyed. I'm just trying to put a little perspective on the issue, but you seem unwilling to take my point, or maybe I'm failing to properly explain what I mean.

It's not about winning--it's about understanding.

[L0oniX]

8. ~

[bravenak]

15. Right. Like the talk about Soros was normal.

[JI7]

9. even Sanders himself is starting to understand it

yet some really don't want to

[bravenak]

13. I bet they find it difficult.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

25. For what it's worth I acknowledge I was wrong.

I didn't know the details behind Sandra's death. I didn't understand what I was seeing, got angry, and stopped thinking. You're right, Bernie should have championed them. He should still champion them.

[bravenak]

32. Thank you so MUCH!!!!

[SolutionisSolidarity]

38. Thank you for putting up with us.

It can't be easy.

[bravenak]

40. Not easy but hopefully worth the troubles. I like you all.

[Luminous Animal]

16. Yep. Glad you are still here.

Sorry I did not continue our dialogue last night. I choked up a bit, typed out a bit of a reply… spent some time reflecting on your words and then fell asleep mid… no reflection on your words! But I am getting so little sleep these days that I fall asleep despite myself.

[bravenak]

18. I've been sleeping badly too.

I'm still here, they can hide my posts but they can't stop the truth. I figured I'd better stay and be the sacrificial canary in this coalmine.

[scarletwoman]

24. I'll do my best to have your back.

You are the most valuable voice here, as far as I'm concerned. Anyone trying to shut you up is someone I want nothing to do with.

Whatever I can do to help, please let me know. I'm no big whoop in the world of DU, but I will not stand by silently.

[bravenak]

34. Thank you.

Seems like we are making some headway. Thank you for helping me through this and writing that amazing post thr first day that helped me explain what I was feeling.

[scarletwoman]

47. Yes, I hope we're making some headway.

You've been an incredible inspiration to me. I mean that.

[sadoldgirl]

37. I think I know where you are coming from,

but, pardon me, to expect the same great enthusiastic from
a former "rebel" as from young frustrated women, may be a bit
much.However, I think he is taking the right steps.

Here is something that is bothering me a little. The claim
that Sandernistas are steadily rubbing Bernie's past into
the AA's "nose". You see, I am happy to know where the
candidates stood for years. I pay little attention to the
present campaign talks. So for me it is important that
Bernie has been consistent all the time, and no, I don't
want to tell other people about what he fought for
should be reason enough to vote for him. However,
again, that is important to me.

I am happy that BLM confronted him, they have more
than enough grievances to do so. I hope that he will
now talk directly to the AA community and address
their problems.

[bravenak]

45. It not us dismissing his record. Really.

It's us rejecting his supporters beating us up with it in order to silence us or demand politeness as we die and get locked up. Makes no sense to promise us college for our dead children. Jobs for our husbands who are locked up. It's not that we dismiss him or think he cannot handle the challenge and will break. Can he handle it? We will see. I think he can, and does not need to be protected from learning how we see the issues. How can he know his framing is wrong if we don't tell him?
The entire democratic party has been telling us for years that we should politely hold meetings and wait. I think he can ruse above and deal with us directly and at the very least get his supporters fired up about Black Lives Matter.

[sadoldgirl]

56. Thanks, I appreciate your reply.

You see, I live in a mostly black neighborhood, and
these neighbors are my best friends (they even worry
at times about this old woman). I know what they fear
and they told me more about their daily struggles than
most people hear. Right now they are totally upset about
the gentrification in this particular neighborhood, and all I
can tell them is to hold on no matter what, and not to succumb
to selling their homes. I hope that all of us will be able to do
that, but the greed from the developers make it very
difficult.

Thanks again!

[bravenak]

69. Thank you. Take care of your friends!! Stay safe!

[sadoldgirl]

73. Will do, and you too stay safe!

[scarletwoman]

19. They don't seem to be able to help themselves.

It's been an astonishing few days here, and I sure as heck don't mean in a good way.

Deaf and blind, blind and deaf. Will not listen, will not open their eyes to see. Must self-justify at all costs.

See, these white liberals already know all they need to know. They know they're on the side of the angels on all issues. All you black folks need to do is recognize and acknowledge their enlightenment and their superior grasp of the issues. Then we'll all be able to work together.

Oh, and don't forget to vote for our candidate. Trust us when we tell that he has your best interests at heart.

[bravenak]

20. Like Jehovah Witnesses.

[JI7]

23. i was right when i said a lot of that outrage had little to do with Sanders himself

if they claim to support him why not listen to what he is saying now. in a way blm brought sanders and minorities to each others attention. so far it's been positive between them.

and yet some who were outraged on his behalf and claim to be supporters will ignore all of this and just continue with the same lines.

i wish they would at least stop hiding behind him in pushing their agenda.

[Number23]

66. You nailed it. "these white liberals already know all they need to know."

"They know they're on the side of the angels on all issues. All you black folks need to do is recognize and acknowledge their enlightenment and their superior grasp of the issues. Then we'll all be able to work together."

THEN we'll all be able to work together! Just do what the fuck I say, when the fuck I say it. Don't ask no questions or show anything other than unending gratitude and subservience and we will be COOL.

I don't know if you were playing or not, but either way, you just nailed a truth so hard and so thoroughly the folks in Cooking and Baking felt the tremors.

[scarletwoman]

71. Thank you.

I hope no-one's soufflé collapsed in C&B.

[guillaumeb]

3. Racism has always been used as a means to divide working class people.

But racism is also a world view, a view that non-white people are intrinsically inferior to whites. Racism was the foundation of the US economy because only a slave-based system could make the southern plantation system economically viable.

Unless the US can acknowledge the full extent of its racist past, until the US can acknowledge how racism enabled the US to become so rich, unless the US can acknowledge that racism is not quite as overt, but still present, the US can never become a post-racial nation.

[jwirr]

58. Only wrong in one thing - "racism is not quite as overt". I am 73 years old and do not think I have

ever seen it so bad and out in the open. Or maybe it is just in the open because we hear about it.

[guillaumeb]

103. Perhaps "overt" was not the correct word to convey my meaning.

KKK robes have been replaced by Tea Party costumes and the snake flag.

The southern flag is no longer a symbol of slavery, but an expression of heritage.

Burning crosses have been replaced by talk about "states rights" and
welfare queens".

The first mixed race President has had his birth certificate questioned, has been described as "the welfare President", has had his patriotism and allegiance questioned.

But at least there are no more "whites only" signs on the water fountains and hotels.

[L0oniX]

7. Off to the greatest.

[scarletwoman]

21. I certainly hope not. This is another piece of white apologist dreck. nt

[brentspeak]

62. Get over yourself. n/t

[scarletwoman]

63. You, first.

[Maedhros]

101. You just have an agenda to make Bernie look bad.

Facts mean little to you, therefore your arguments are not compelling.

[GoneFishin]

10. "The idea, presumably, was to get him to address questions of racism alone, particularly ..."

"... as it relates to police brutality. This he did, pointing to the prejudice of the criminal justice system and other factors, ..."

[Juicy_Bellows]

12. Orthogonal difference?

Hmm, perhaps if you are looking at a Twix bar. Left Twix and right Twix are seperate but part of the same package.

[bravenak]

22. Separate but equal?

[Juicy_Bellows]

30. I wouldn't say that.

To further my terrible analogy - they only make a Twix together. They aren't sold separately. Now we can see proof of people getting the left Twix when they get pulled over for being black or the right twix when they cant pay the bills or afford school but the two parts make the whole.

I admit it's a crap analogy.

[bravenak]

35. Lol!

I was just joking!

[Juicy_Bellows]

44. I appreciate a good laugh!

I sure as shit don't appreciate people that would try and downplay racism in this country as no big deal or that it is all economics. It's a nasty web of decades of foul oppression disguised as many things. From the brief stuff I've read of your posts i think we share a similar view.

[bravenak]

46. I'm glad you feel that way!

[HereSince1628]

33. in a coordinate plane I understand orthogonal to be more perpendicular than parallel

" orthogonality is the relation of two lines at right angles to one another (perpendicularity), and the generalization of this relation into n dimensions; and to a variety of mathematical relations thought of as describing non-overlapping, uncorrelated, or independent objects of some kind."

from wiki

[Juicy_Bellows]

54. Are you suggesting no one makes a crucifix

Out of their Twix? I always do, keeps Count Chocula at bay. I always go orthogonal.

[Luminous Animal]

14. Bernie is listening. It is time for his supporters to listen, as well.

Black Lives Matter has been a component to his life's work. Militarization of the police, massive incarceration, the over-criminialization of PoC, has long been issues he has addressed but now he's being pushed into the 21st century and learning to speak with a modern tongue… Learning what Black Lives Matter to modern day activists. He will continue to talk about the economy and class but he will broaden his outreach because he will listen and he will learn.

And, I've little doubt that he would expect his voters and volunteers to listen and learn as well and follow him into the 21st century of Black Lives Matter activism.

[beam me up scottie]

17. +1

I'm still listening and learning.

[ibegurpard]

27. one of the worst things you can say to a white liberal

Is,that they are biased. They will argue with you to the death and then come back to argue some more. But it's so silly...we all have biases. All we have to do is check them and act accordingly. People need to stop taking this personally by proxy and just listen to the message of black lives matter. Why did Sandra Bland die in that jail cell? Why so many before her? All the candidates get it...why are so many people taking it personally for them not getting it?

[whatchamacallit]

41. A lot of people get it

Something to consider in the racial vs economic justice debate is the long view. Yes, something needs to be done now to address the epidemic of violence on PoC, and there need to be thorough investigations of these deaths at police hands, but beyond the now, one of the most powerful tools to prevent future abuse by the criminal justice system is economic empowerment. The article has this right, and so does Bernie.

[scarletwoman]

43. Why are they taking it personally? Because nothing is as fiercely defended as one's blind spot. nt

[jwirr]

61. My blind spot are my mixed race family. AA, Native American, Latino, Asian and white. And when

I read some of the things about white racism I wonder if I should apologize to my own loves ones. I cannot help but take the generalizations personally.

[Maedhros]

102. I'm fully aware of and angered at the Sandra Bland incident.

In fact, I have been incensed at police brutality directed at black Americans for a long time - since at least 2003, with the killing of Kendra James by the Portland Police Bureau:

http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/PPR30/kjames30.html

So, not a blind spot.

What is infuriating is people such as yourself that have co-opted the BLM message to use as a political bludgeon against a candidate that you don't like. This is betrayed by your inability to give Sanders one iota of credit for his longstanding work for equality and justice. It makes it look like equality and justice really aren't that important to you, and that you're just looking to criticize for criticism's sake.

[1StrongBlackMan]

53. Not biased ... racist. Most people will readily admit they have biases. n/t

[ibegurpard]

88. Yes that's true

And it all comes back to checking your assumptions before you act or speak.

[1StrongBlackMan]

91. I understand ... You were trying to avoid the use of the term racist/racism ...

as it might apply to liberals ... that's another liberal trait.

[ibegurpard]

97. Well we could have another whole thread about that

Using the term racism always causes most of the people in position of privilege to close their ears. And white people, even liberals, will also argue with you that black people can be racist despite the fact that the institutional power structure is stacked against people of color.
You know exactly what a thread about that topic will devolve into.

[1StrongBlackMan]

98. Yes ... Sadly, I do. n/t

[DemocraticWing]

42. You can't eliminate racism without changing our economic system

But you also can't bring economic justice without addressing racism. Sanders' supporters are not wrong about the first part, but some (not all, perhaps not even most) have struggled with the second part. Bernie has to directly address racism in all its forms, and come up with a plan to do something about it.

I don't think black activists believe you can bring about racial justice without any attention to economics however, which seems to be the point of this article.

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. Why can't we eliminate racism without changing our economic system? n/t

[DemocraticWing]

74. Everything intersects: racism, homophobia, sexism, ableism, transphobia, and classism

Racism and capitalism are intertwined in some ways and not in others. A lot of racism in the criminal justice system has an economic component to it though: things like civil asset forfeiture, underfunded public defenders, mass incarceration in for-profit prisons, and the lasting effects of going to prison on a person's ability to get a job.

The core of these problems is racism, but changing them will address classism too.

[Romulox]

80. Because the origin of racism in this country is an economic system in which men and women were OWNED

as chattel property.

Capitalism is the cause of racism.

[JI7]

82. so how does that explain Sandra Bland and the Pool kids and the RAcist cops ? the cops are not rich

they are part of the 99 percent

[Romulox]

83. Slavery--a product of capitalism--is the origin of our racial caste system. nt

[JI7]

84. so are the cops the slave owners ?

[Romulox]

85. They work for the heirs to the slaver owners' wealth.

There's no way around capitalism's "original sin" in America--no way to sanitize its hideous origins. The consequences are with us even today.

[JI7]

86. that still doesn't explain it since the cop themselves wont get financial benefit

from it .

[Romulox]

87. They draw their salaries from "it"--they enforce the economic status quo with deadly force. nt

[1StrongBlackMan]

90. I agree that racism was the dehumanizing tool used to further the slave enterprise

by making the owning of humans more palatable ... but racism (otherism) existed prior to that criminal enterprise.

[Romulox]

92. American slavery was the commodification of racism--it's purest form. "Otherism" isn't the same thing. nt

[TheKentuckian]

124. Because it is built on racism, exploitation, and predatory behavior and if you extract

such from it there is virtually nothing left and could not exist otherwise.

Without exploitation and otherizing the whole thing collapses, there has to be essentially slave classes be they blacks, prison populations, FOXCONN type workers, Indians working the cotton fields or sleeping under a sewing machine, or Vietnamese shrimps in subsistence servitude and the cognitive dissonance threatens whole arrangement if people being plundered and abused are considered as they are as human being just like us (no matter who the us is), empathy will tend to leak in and the exploitation won't hold up because most people aren't that wicked to the core but with insulation and division along with payoff and advantage blind spots can be taken advantage of to make it either okay or even more successfully out of sight and out of mind.

Even a thought experiment of say just looking at white America and thinking this is how it would be without racism is a false premise because it doesn't shake out the same without the artificial under classes that allow "privilege", the system would have to greatly reorganize to create a large exploitable underclass to be extracted from, there has got to be an ism or or unprotected migrants or colonies or "developing regions" to do the slave work in slave conditions for as close to nothing as possible. Someone has to be the undesirable caste to be the "at least you have it better than them" role to maintain support for the system or at least acceptance and there has to be somewhere you can be threatened to fall to.

[Historic NY]

57. Somehow I think they're tired of the bullshit memo that he marched with MLK...

lots of people did black, white and other...it doesn't make him special. His supporters keep harping about it, then was then now is now.

[jalan48]

67. BLM are talking about people being killed by the police in real time.

Economic issues are important but seeing your fellow citizens basically murdered by the state as we speak is more immediate. And not just murdered as a rarity, but as a regular occurrence. It's a big deal, economic speeches need to take a back seat until we acknowledge and deal with this problem.
Bernie has listened and incorporated into his speeches the issue of BLM. Let's give him credit and move on past the blaming Bernie stage. Bernie isn't the issue here, the brutality of the police toward minorities is.

[Zenlitened]

68. What Reuters Gets Wrong About Bernie Sanders and Black Lives Matter

#BlackLivesMatter is not about Bernie Sanders. It's about black lives.


If I may repeat myself:

#BlackLivesMatter is not about Bernie Sanders. It's about black lives.

To reduce the whole issue to nothing more than a "meme" is truly heartless, arrogant and grotesque.

To suggest that black protesters are unwitting pawns of right wing tacticians... or left-wing tacticians... well, that's some of the most racist, supremacist crap imaginable.

I've been white all my life, and a Democrat just about as long.

But what I've seen and heard from purported progressives the last few days has me feeling ashamed on BOTH counts.

Forfucksake, not everything is centered on us and our latest political calculus.

Black lives matter because black lives matter, not because of how the notion makes us feel about our prospects in an election year.

Not even when the movement makes its presence felt on a stage we assumed belonged to us, and us only.

Is that so hard to understand?

If it is too hard, then I encourage us to stop campaigning for Sen. Sanders entirely.

Because we're sure not doing him any favors by perpetuating this image of self-absorbed, bubble-dwelling, Beltway-beholden white liberals.

But if we really are willing to look beyond the ends of our own noses... if we really are committed to doing the work of Democratic coalition-building... then why don't we start by actually LISTENING to the people we'd like to see get on board with our candidate, whichever candidate we prefer?

Maybe even acknowledging that they have something valid to say, even if it's not listed on our own, inward-gazing strategy sheets?

I'll tell you, that's a much better gamble than hoping people will vote for someone whose supporters, they're daily persuaded, are complete assholes.

Remember years ago when LGBT was "the new Black?"

Yeah, that was a pretty specious claim back then. And even more so now, when it's obvious Black is the same Black, and has been right along.

Yet here we are years later, when advances in LGBT rights are counted among Pres. Obama's finest accomplishments.

Believe me, that didn't happen because of irritable Democrats who dismissed the topic with their talk of ponies and "poutrage."

It happened DESPITE them.

If Sen. Sanders wins the party nomination, it sure won't be because of his supporters trying to shout down #BLM, either.

Originally posted Tuesday at:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/128028225

[scarletwoman]

72. Great post! I think you ought to have re-posted it here in GD-P.

It's really, really well-said!

[Zenlitened]

77. Thanks, I appreciate your perspective...

...and your kindness in sharing it.

Just hoping I can amplify a bit, without drowning out.

[zappaman]

94. Well said!

[B2G]

95. Why is Hillary getting a pass?

She didn't even show up.

[polichick]

99. Could be because this story makes a convenient divide-and-conquer tactic.

[dreamnightwind]

106. They never, ever, have an answer for this

and it invalidates their ranting on Bernie.

[ibegurpard]

108. She's not getting a pass on it

And insinuating the protest was about embarrassing Bernie is offensive. Sandra Bland died in police custody because of a traffic stop. The cops say she killed herself. Anyone who tries to use this or the other deaths of black people at the hands of corrupt police for anything other than bringing attention to these atrocities is going to have it come back to bite them in the ass.

[dreamnightwind]

110. My post was only about the noise here about Bernie and this issue

and how curiously missing is any comparable such noise about Hillary. I strongly disagree with any assertion that she isn't getting a pass on the issue.