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Joe Nation

(962 posts)
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 09:53 AM Aug 2015

The Problem I've Always Had With Hillary Clinton

I like Hillary Clinton and I'd vote for her over anyone on the Right in a heartbeat. I have no interest in the faux "scandals" the Right-wing hate machine churns out year after year. My complaint is that Hillary Clinton, much like Bill Clinton, is a corporate Democrat. She has done the calculation that Wall Street will back someone on the Left and someone on the Right. She wants to tap into all that Wall Street cash even though you and I and she knows the strings that come with that cash. Of course Bernie Sanders supporters are licking their chops at this analysis of Clinton but even though I completely support the ideas Bernie has put forward, without support from establishment Democrats and even a few fed-up Republicans, Bernie will spend 4 years being blocked at every turn much like Obama has been.

So tell me, do I support the corporate Democrat or the guy nobody will work with?

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The Problem I've Always Had With Hillary Clinton (Original Post) Joe Nation Aug 2015 OP
You should support who ever you want to leftofcool Aug 2015 #1
Depends on your conscience. mmonk Aug 2015 #2
Shouldn't the question be..... daleanime Aug 2015 #3
she completely sold out tech workers HFRN Aug 2015 #4
I really don't see what the big deal is. mmonk Aug 2015 #5
4 years of progress Joe Nation Aug 2015 #6
I don't follow exactly. mmonk Aug 2015 #15
What is the Big Deal? Trajan Aug 2015 #27
Who can really build on the Obama accomplishments? Joe Nation Aug 2015 #7
Hillary has been railing against corporations since the 80s. SonderWoman Aug 2015 #8
I would like to see a woman as president but that isn't my main consideration. Joe Nation Aug 2015 #9
I think you need to update your self with Hillary's 2016 campaign.... riversedge Aug 2015 #10
My problem is... kenfrequed Aug 2015 #17
LOL no jfern Aug 2015 #34
so you think that a republican congress will work with Clinton? Rosa Luxemburg Aug 2015 #11
They will to a greater degree in my opinion Joe Nation Aug 2015 #14
You should ask why that is artislife Aug 2015 #24
Honestly, Joe Nation Aug 2015 #25
Sounds like you have a good idea artislife Aug 2015 #31
Outsider? Rosa Luxemburg Aug 2015 #32
It depends on what you want to see accomplishd Armstead Aug 2015 #37
Hillary also had a lot of bipartisan work in the Senate, plus Bill did pretty well with Congress ericson00 Aug 2015 #19
I think what many fail to understand INdemo Aug 2015 #12
that is utter non sense dsc Aug 2015 #21
A step at a time Armstead Aug 2015 #38
Congress and Senate support Fred75 Aug 2015 #13
And he will get it INdemo Aug 2015 #33
If Bernie gets through expect things to change in a big way. Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #16
I disagree because.... Joe Nation Aug 2015 #20
No saviour being foisted upon him from me. Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #22
I think the people that want Bernie Joe Nation Aug 2015 #23
I would substitute the word "leader" for "savior" Armstead Aug 2015 #40
the current pro corporate president ibegurpard Aug 2015 #18
Why do you assume congress will "work with" Clinton but not with Sanders? arcane1 Aug 2015 #26
Because she will work with them. Joe Nation Aug 2015 #28
That approach didn't work for Obama, so it won't work for Hillary. Maedhros Aug 2015 #30
I am not sure you are correct about Bernie but in your terms I would go jwirr Aug 2015 #29
Why don't you decide for yourself? PowerToThePeople Aug 2015 #35
The Supreme Court. oasis Aug 2015 #36
What good does supporting someone people "will work with" do daredtowork Aug 2015 #39
If that theory worked for FDR, but not for Obama (which is what I think you mean here)... MrMickeysMom Aug 2015 #41
 

HFRN

(1,469 posts)
4. she completely sold out tech workers
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 09:59 AM
Aug 2015



Clinton's free-trade advocacy is hitting labor where it lives
Competition helps both sides, she says. A Buffalo deal yielded a few jobs.
July 30, 2007|Peter Wallsten | Times Staff Writer


BUFFALO, N.Y. — To many labor unions and high-tech workers, the Indian giant Tata Consultancy Services is a serious threat -- a company that has helped move U.S. jobs to India while sending thousands of foreign workers on temporary visas to the United States.

So when Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) came to this struggling city to announce some good news, her choice of partners was something of a surprise.

Joining Tata Consultancy's chief executive at a downtown hotel, Clinton announced that the company would open a software development office in Buffalo and form a research partnership with a local university. Tata told a newspaper that it might hire as many as 200 people.

The 2003 announcement had clear benefits for the senator and the company: Tata received good press, and Clinton burnished her credentials as a champion for New York's depressed upstate region.

But less noticed was how the event signaled that Clinton, who portrays herself as a fighter for American workers, had aligned herself with Indian American business leaders and Indian companies feared by the labor movement.

http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jul/30/nation/na-buffalo30


"Outsourcing will continue. There is no way to legislate against reality. We are not in favor of putting up fences."
Hillary had said on Feb 28 in India, according to a report by the Asia Times. Kirwin also cited her position as co-chair of the ‘Friends of India Caucus’ in the Senate, a group of senators that supports issues important to India, including outsourcing and H-1B and L-1 visas, as another reason behind the ITPAA's decision to give the award to the prospective Democrat presidential nominee.”
(Press Trust Of India, 3/5/05)

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
5. I really don't see what the big deal is.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 10:03 AM
Aug 2015

If you are more aligned with Bernie, then vote for him. What exactly do you lose? Same with any candidate.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
15. I don't follow exactly.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:24 PM
Aug 2015

The House is too gerrymandered to go our way. And I don't get how it pertains to your choice in the primaries.

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
27. What is the Big Deal?
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 03:30 PM
Aug 2015

The Big Deal is this - We want our Democratic leaders to STOP the flow of American jobs to foreign lands ...

The picture in the OP disgusts me ... It is disgusting to all US workers who are struggling to make a household work ...

The question might be - Are those who don't care 'What the Big Deal is' hurting their fellow citizens by blithely ignoring the factual displacement of millions of workers, by simply shrugging their shoulders and saying 'huh? ... So what!'

 

SonderWoman

(1,169 posts)
8. Hillary has been railing against corporations since the 80s.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 10:08 AM
Aug 2015

And corporations only play by the rules Congress creates, so our main focus should be winning back senate. And I believe a Democrat has a better chance of rallying the Dem base than an Independent.

Joe Nation

(962 posts)
9. I would like to see a woman as president but that isn't my main consideration.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 10:10 AM
Aug 2015

I want the right person for the job regardless of gender, race, or any other demographic.

riversedge

(70,186 posts)
10. I think you need to update your self with Hillary's 2016 campaign....
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 10:17 AM
Aug 2015




Hillary channels Elizabeth Warren in campaign bid - Apr. 13 ...
money.cnn.com/2015/04/.../hillary-clinton-elizabeth-warren/
CNNMoney
Apr 13, 2015 - Hillary Clinton's campaign announcement sounds strikingly similar to liberal-darling Elizabeth Warren...but will Hillary's policies be equally as progressive? ... Hillary is going to be picked apart like the rotting carcass she is.
Hillary Clinton Is Sounding Like Elizabeth Warren - YouTube
Video for Hillary Clinton sounds like Elizabeth Warren▶ 6:46

Apr 15, 2015 - Uploaded by Secular Talk
On Morning Joe Wednesday morning, host Mika Brzezinski said that Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton was ...
Why Hillary Clinton is sounding a lot like Elizabeth Warren ...
www.msnbc.com/.../why-hillary-clinton-is-sounding-a-lot-like-elizabeth-...
Mar 4, 2015 - Krystal Ball speaks with Democratic donors, politicians, and celebrities about what issues they'd like to see Hillary Clinton champion at the 30th ...
Hillary Clinton Is Sounding A Lot More Like Elizabeth ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../hillary-clinton-elizabet...
The Huffington Post
Jul 2, 2014 - Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) says she isn't running for president, but her rhetoric is still being heard on the campaign trail. On Monday ...
IOWA HILLARY sometimes sounds like Elizabeth Warren ...
www.politico.com/playbook/0415/playbook17892.html
Politico
Apr 15, 2015 - IOWA HILLARY sometimes sounds like Elizabeth Warren ... educators here at Kirkwood Community College, Hillary Clinton ... outlined four big ...

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
17. My problem is...
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:43 PM
Aug 2015

That she is "sounding more like Elizabeth Warren" without actually coming out boldly and specifically on policy that deals with the problems of concentration of wealth, banking, and Wallstreet.

And she does this while still taking money from those very groups.

I have trouble supporting someone that claims they will stand up to the banks on Thursday after cashing their checks on Tuesday.

jfern

(5,204 posts)
34. LOL no
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 11:17 PM
Aug 2015

Hillary doesn't oppose TPP.
Hillary doesn't support reinstating Glass Steagall.
Ridiculous comparison.

Rosa Luxemburg

(28,627 posts)
11. so you think that a republican congress will work with Clinton?
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 10:21 AM
Aug 2015

Actually Bernie has good experience working with everyone for years. He won't put up with any nonsense.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
24. You should ask why that is
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 03:08 PM
Aug 2015

Is it because she is closer to what they want to pass through or is it because she a will easily cave ...er..compromise? What is important to you..The future or having the same incremental change.

I think we are at a flash point. ..maybe even past it.

Joe Nation

(962 posts)
25. Honestly,
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 03:23 PM
Aug 2015

Part of it is that they don't want to be seen as being mean to a woman, part of it is that she would be better than an outsider because of her ties to the corporate world(better for them anyway), and a part of it is her broad range of experiences. Incremental change or even just maintaining the status quo is probably Clinton's eventual impact. Bernie's eventual impact, hard to tell. He hasn't exactly been the most effective Senator but he is exactly where we need to take this country.

Rosa Luxemburg

(28,627 posts)
32. Outsider?
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 07:14 PM
Aug 2015

Outsider of what? Of bought politicians? I think Bernie has been a great senator. I'm not trying to be difficult but I do think that Hillary will go with the flow as she did with her Iraq vote.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
37. It depends on what you want to see accomplishd
Sun Aug 23, 2015, 12:17 AM
Aug 2015

The GOP MIGHT cooperate with Hillary on things they already want, but would you really want to see those particular things accomplished?

I can just see, for example, repeats of the various forms of deregulation in the 90's that were "bipartisan" achievements of the previous Clinton WH.

Personally, I think that kind of achievement we don't need.

 

ericson00

(2,707 posts)
19. Hillary also had a lot of bipartisan work in the Senate, plus Bill did pretty well with Congress
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 02:10 PM
Aug 2015

especially given their public venom, and Bill Clinton was "buy one get one free." She'll do great!!

INdemo

(6,994 posts)
12. I think what many fail to understand
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 10:25 AM
Aug 2015

About Bernie Sanders is the fact if he wins the nomination than it will then be clear the "revolution" at that point is successful.
So then through his general election campaigning he asks voters to send to Washinton a Congress that will work with him and at that point voters will respond positively.
So the idea of not having a Congress to work with then becomes a non issue.

dsc

(52,155 posts)
21. that is utter non sense
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 02:46 PM
Aug 2015

the House, in particular is very, very gerrymandered in favor of the GOP. I admit NC is an extreme case, but I do live here so I will use it. In 2012, we won the two party Congressional vote by a smallish margin (about 1 percent), for that we got a 9 - 3- 1 division of seats. 9 solid GOP, 3 very sold DEM, and 1 virtual tie which we won by about 650 votes. In 2014, we lost the two party Congressional vote by about 2 percent or so, the division was 10 - 3 in favor of the GOP. The closest races was lost by nearly 7 points. Unless we win the 2 party Congressional vote by around 10, the GOP will have at least 9 seats here and likely 10. If we don't win by at least 5 they will have a 10 - 3 advantage period. We could have the God Jesus ticket running in NC as a Democrat and it wouldn't win by 10.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
38. A step at a time
Sun Aug 23, 2015, 12:20 AM
Aug 2015

Bernie wouldn't be the silvet bullet, but it would help to set conditions for longer progress towards move the spectrum away from the GOP supremacy.

Fred75

(22 posts)
13. Congress and Senate support
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:39 AM
Aug 2015

I'm sure that if Bernie Sanders gets the nomination to run for President, he will also talk
about the support he will need to push his agenda through.

Fred75

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
16. If Bernie gets through expect things to change in a big way.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:38 PM
Aug 2015

The movement on the ground will be something unseen before. I believe the groundswell of support and the tools of this modern age will bring a congress that will work for us. It's better than picking someone the Republicans will work with.

We have to try - isn't it worth trying? I sure as shit think so.

Joe Nation

(962 posts)
20. I disagree because....
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 02:36 PM
Aug 2015

If there is one constant in the Democrat side of the aisle, it is that many of them look to elect a savior. There is no one-person savior coming to rescue us. I think that is what Obama is saying when he says, "Make me do it". We can elect anyone we want but unless we get behind that person before, during, AND especially after the election is over, nothing will change.

I get sort of irritated by Democrats that think this guy or that woman is going to come in and rescue us from the dreaded Republicans. It doesn't even make sense if you think about it. We know that we live in an Oligarchy not a Democracy so why would anyone think that any single person could override the entire power of the Oligarchs? No one could, but the masses rising up in support of a leader could accomplish exactly what we need to take back this country for the American people.

Juicy_Bellows

(2,427 posts)
22. No saviour being foisted upon him from me.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 02:58 PM
Aug 2015

I do think Bernie has the best chance to mobilize the people. I think you'd agree he yas a better shot at mobilization than Hillary.

Joe Nation

(962 posts)
23. I think the people that want Bernie
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 03:05 PM
Aug 2015

are less likely to be looking for a savior in the first place. Those looking for a savior would probably more likely be in Hillary's camp. Just my opinion.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
40. I would substitute the word "leader" for "savior"
Sun Aug 23, 2015, 12:24 AM
Aug 2015

Nobidy thinks Sanders would be a savior.

But we do see him as a leader of a much larger movement that has been stifled for years, and is bubbling up to the surface and beginning to gain more popular support.

Sanders himself says "I can't do anything....unless you all do something too. This is about a larger movement."

And personally I think that would help to move the "default" position closer to where it should be.



 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
30. That approach didn't work for Obama, so it won't work for Hillary.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 04:26 PM
Aug 2015

Sanders has 40 years of experience working with others in Congress. I give him the nod here.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
29. I am not sure you are correct about Bernie but in your terms I would go
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 04:23 PM
Aug 2015

with the guy nobody will work with. Why? Because we saw what triangulation did for us in the Clinton administration: welfare reform, Glass-Steagall, NAFTA, the communications act, tough on crime laws and more. What did we get? The economy of the rich got richer. The economy for most of us stagnated. The top end improved for a while - the bottom started down and has not stopped. Corporations gained power while the people lost power.

If Bernie turns out to not be able to get them to work with him even if our movement backs him up he will still have the veto and executive orders and the chance to appoint judges to the SCOTUS and in this Democrats will support him because they have to. Plus he will have the bully pulpit and will not hold back. We will know we are getting the truth from him. He will talk to us about what he wants to do and why. And we understand him because he understands us. But most of all because we trust him.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
35. Why don't you decide for yourself?
Sat Aug 22, 2015, 11:36 PM
Aug 2015

By reading your OP I would say you have already decided to vote Clinton or maybe even someone else.

daredtowork

(3,732 posts)
39. What good does supporting someone people "will work with" do
Sun Aug 23, 2015, 12:21 AM
Aug 2015

if Hillary isn't doing anything that addresses your concern?

The reason Bernie has so much appeal is that people want domestic policy. Obama was supposed to bring that (remember Hope and Change?) He didn't bring all that much. For some reason once someone becomes President of the United States, they almost forget about the people who live in this country (except for their billionaire donors) and turn to deal with International problems.

So Hillary will get people to "work with her" on the latest International incident. So what. Nothing will happen on the problems that concern you and me.

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
41. If that theory worked for FDR, but not for Obama (which is what I think you mean here)...
Sun Aug 23, 2015, 12:28 AM
Aug 2015

Then, what do you suppose the real obstacle is in being blocked at every turn.

I think it's the guy or gal who would be "blocked".

It's also the people who get burned by the guy or gal who would be blocked.

Meet the new boss…. Same as the old boss….

Personally, I don't think people want to be fooled again. We're way past the point in believing whoever gets elected could actually negotiate anything.

It's more of a question of, "So tell me… do I support the Democrat who has never lied about what we must do, or the one that the majority can "work with"?

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