2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumJoe Biden: ‘Abortion Is Always Wrong’
Vice President Joe Biden believes that life begins at conception, according to a statement he made while inviting pro-lifers to join the Democratic party in conjunction with Pope Franciss visit to the United States.
Biden maintained that the question of when life begins is a religious matter. Im prepared to accept that at the moment of conception theres human life and being, but Im not prepared to say that to other God-fearing [and] non-God-fearing people that have a different view, he said during an interview published by America, a Jesuit-run outlet, on Monday.
Abortion is always wrong, Biden continued. All the principles of my faith, {which} I make no excuse for attempting to live up to I dont all the time. But Im not prepared to impose doctrine that Im prepared to accept on the rest of {the country}.
I have never thought of myself as a "non-God-fearing" person, but I suppose I cannot deny that label.
Metric System
(6,048 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Actually nothing wrong with him having an opinion. He said the same thing during the vice presidential debate.
His issue is forcing others to believe what he does and he refuses to do that.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and that all abortion is wrong. No matter how the conception took place.
NO MATTER IF CARRYING THE FETUS TO TERM WILL KILL THE MOTHER.
NO MATTER IF CARRYING THE FETUS TO TERM WILL KILL THE MOTHER AND THE BABY.
randys1
(16,286 posts)intelligent in some areas, be so dumb in others.
I am a recovering Catholic, and I know better than to hold this ridiculous view.
brush
(53,771 posts)which is reasonable and unlike that kook county clerk in Texas.
He will lose much support by saying this though.
I believe Biden was signaling he won't run.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I oppose Biden for other issues....financial, military, national security, police.
I believe him when he says he won't impose his personal beliefs on others.
valerief
(53,235 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)The keyword there is personal. I'm a staunch supporter of abortion. But I'm very confidant in my choice. I don't need joe Biden to validate me. All he is required to do is keep his religion out of public spaces in his role as a government official.
valerief
(53,235 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Demonstrably and objectively untrue.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)death to the mother and/or one or more fetuses. A categorical statement like that indicates a willingness to reach an absolure opinion on an issue without first learning all the facts.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)That's pretty standard.
I am disappointed to see the "Life begins at" argument. It exploits ignorance of biogenesis to endorse a myth regarding the over-arching specialness of conception that is hypocritical and primarily applied, to deny women the right to reproductive self-defense.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)I'm glad he draws the line between his personal beliefs on abortion and his desire to impose those beliefs, but still....
This is an example of why he will never be the Democratic nominee.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)That right there is the way you handle your personal faith in a public space
Now the PSYOPS part of the title of this article is to pull a statement from his personal beliefs a statement that ONLY refers to him and not to the other people.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)I cannot stand these types of OPs.
Joe Biden is for a woman's right to choose.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)you should read up on that position.
Biden has repeatedly supported the Hyde Amendment.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)The only cite I see is one to National Review buried in some text.
Did you write this, or did you never learn copyright law?
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)You should learn how to do attribution, counselor.
BTW, the quotes in the article are edited and contextually twisted.
Here's the PDF from which these concoctions were obtained:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B64aMhgtMmKyRDFsb1k5R0NEb0U&usp=sharing
End of page 4 to beginning of page 5.
Case dismissed.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)on both sides. It's like middle school. If you don't wear the same outfit as me, it means my outfit isn't as good as yours.
Joe Biden is great on women's issues. He married all the women he had children with, which is a sign of respect for the mother and the child.
Bernie was married twice but had his daughter (his only biological child) by a third woman out of wedlock.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Jesus Christ, you don't even know what the hell you're talking about.
No wonder you're defending Joe.
Guess who this is?:
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)"Joe Biden is great on women's issues. He married all the women he had children with, which is a sign of respect for the mother and the child.
Bernie was married twice but had his daughter (his only biological child) by a third woman out of wedlock."
wow. just wow.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)That tells you everything you need to know about that poster.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)hey, can we coin that?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)and he's with my favorite most awesome person in the world. President Obama before he was president.
thank you for the correction
Metric System
(6,048 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)(In fairness, Huckabee never had the chance to vote to overturn Roe)
elleng
(130,865 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)he's still adding fuel to the anti-abortion rights fire. Furthermore, the basis for his opposition is unscientific and has no place in public policy.
I don't understand why faith, believing in that for which there is zero evidence, is considered a virtue. Religious belief is personal, so let's keep it that way.
MBS
(9,688 posts)And that's been his consistent legislative position and impeccably honorable constitutional philosophy -- and that of almost all Catholic congressional Democrats -- since forever.
He has supported pro-choice legislation consistently, not out of hypocrisy or pandering, but out of unshakeable conviction in the vital importance of the separation of church and state. Isn't this what we want, folks?
Wow, not a single debate or primary yet, and I'm already exhausted by the daily hysteria and distortions. .
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Maybe you should get all the facts before you accuse women of hysteria.
You couldn't possibly have exhausted yourself reading the thread otherwise you'd know Biden voted against pro-choice legislation.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)"I agree with them, but I'll let you plebes get away with it" is not good enough. Because we need someone to actually fight back against the gradual chipping away of Roe.
Someone who fundamentally disagrees with Roe is not going to be an effective fighter for Roe. They're going to say things like "Well, we can ban this one procedure". Or "Waiting periods are OK". They will internally excuse it by claiming women have other options. Forgetting that "women" includes more than women living in a Northeastern city with plenty of money and their own car and a job they can repeatedly take time off from during the day.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Well said, jeff!
historylovr
(1,557 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)I never understood that.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Keep up.
http://www.nrlc.org/archive/ObamaAbortionAgenda/BidenProofVoteForHatchAmendToOverturnRoe.pdf
I remember vividly the first time, in 1973, I had to go to the floor to vote on abortion. A fellow Senator asked how I would vote. My position is that I am personally opposed to abortion, but I dont think I have a right to impose my few on the rest of society. Ive thought a lot about it, and my position probably doesnt please anyone. I think the government should stay out completely. I will not vote to overturn the Courts decision. I will not vote to curtail a womans right to choose abortion. But I will also not vote to use federal funds to fund abortion.
***
No public funding for abortion; it imposes a view
Q: Are you still opposed to public funding for abortion?
A: I still am opposed to public funding for abortion. It goes to the question of whether or not youre going to impose a view to support something that is not a guaranteed right but an affirmative action to promote.
Source: Meet the Press: 2007 Meet the Candidates series , Apr 29, 2007
***
Supports partial-birth abortion ban, but not undoing Roe
Q: You supported the ban on partial-birth abortions or late-term abortions.
A: I did and I do.
***
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions.
This legislation, if enacted, would ban the abortion procedure in which the physician partially delivers the fetus before completing the abortion. [A NO vote supports abortion rights].
http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Joe_Biden_Abortion.htm
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Is Obama the next meal on the plate?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Do you deny he signed the Human Life Federalism Amendment?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Or when a mother's life is at risk?
That's fucked up, Joe.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)personally, the Supreme court upheld Roe v Wade which says a woman has a right to make personal decisions about her body. That's the law.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I get enough of that holier than thou sanctimonious "Abortion is always wrong" horseshit from forced birthers, I don't want to hear it from the vice president.
A Democrat no less.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)it's his personal belief for himself. I think you've got him confused with GOP KKKochroaches.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)That includes children who were raped, women whose lives are at risk and women whose fetuses have severe defects.
We don't need men to tell us we should feel guilty because it's WRONG to choose to abort a fetus.
THAT IS FUCKED UP.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)When stated publicly, they are his public belief, and they carry judgement of other people given his position in society. His "personal beliefs" on bankruptcy influenced bankruptcy law. His "personal beliefs" on the death penalty led to more death penalty crimes, "three strikes", mandatory sentencing and many other grave injustices.
He doesn't get a pass for claiming a "personal belief" exemption.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)He said the same thing 4 years ago. Did you vote for the ticket?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I voted for Obama because he is 100% pro-choice.
Shouldn't you be defending the Duggars in GD instead of telling me who and what I voted for?
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Who knew they were separated. Learn something new everyday.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Perhaps you can request it be taken down if it concerns you. I see many different opinions offered here.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I offered up proof that Biden has held these beliefs for a long time and that the country voted for the ticket anyway. In no way did I give anything more then facts.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Spare me.
Someone somewhere on DU is criticizing the Duggars, maybe you should go counsel them.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Have a great night!
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)all dems should be hammering home the point that if we had better and universal health care, more widely available contraceptives, an economy where women did not have to work three jobs to barely be able to feed their one kid and stay with deadbeat losers becsuse they have no financial freedom, where male dominance and rape is always condemned as the evil it is, that abortions would drop even further because the factors leading to those pregnancies would have been dealt with.
imo we have the financial, medical, and technological capability to make abortion necessary to save a woman's life but otherwise obsolete (because unintended pregnancies could almost disappear).
we just need the collective will. and that is what the gop doesnt get...they want to stop (most) abortions? give women proper health care and contraception, and the ability to be financially stable, and lock up the losers who rape and exploit them. lets start there, misogynistic assholes.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)They want to slut shame women and doom us to a lifetime of poverty when we get pregnant.
That's the Republican/Christian way.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)forced poverty is completely antithetical to the beatitudes, the words of Jesus himself.
your christians are so unlike your Christ.---gandhi
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Judeo-Christian religion is full of misogyny and it's been used to keep women oppressed for thousands of years.
Liberal Christians aren't misogynists but they aren't the only ones who can claim that title.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)but i believe that within every religion as well as atheism, there is an option to live out the best version of that religion or the worst.
most republicans have clearly chosen the worst
ZM90
(706 posts)I am also very happy that he chooses not to try to impose his personal belief on any of the population. He is separating church from state and that is good.
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)think abortion is always wrong ARE intent on forcing their views down others' throats.
There isn't a tent big enough for me and for them.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)overturn Roe v Wade. we are goverened by the rule of law not anyone's personal belief system. That's why kin Davis is such a weak crazy shit. She's like so many other weakass people who can't strong for their beliefs unless someone is agreeing with them or vaidating them. Geez.
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)he did invite pro-lifers to join the Democratic Party. How much further right can it go? I will never, under any circumstances, vote for a pro-lifer no matter what letter is after their name.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)The MAJORITY of BLACK people are PROLIFERS. The MAJORITY of LATINOS are PROLIFERS.
Im AA and spent my youth in church but i have always been pro-choice.
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)sleeve and unless it's reflected on the sleeves of others, you just can't go there. Bless your heart.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You're a real piece of work.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)As a 65 y/o AA woman I woud say I know a little something abot reproductive rights. i was part of the Civil Rights movement and sexual revolution. I didn't get involved in the 2nd wave feminist movement because many black women at that time were busy mocking it more in an ironic rather than mean way.
Biden would never sign a bill depriving women of their reproductive rights because his PERSONAL VIEWS differ from the majority of Americans. This is just silliness. He's a mature individual who took an oath to uphold the Constitution which includes separation of Church and State. It does not allow him to impose his PERSONAL BELIEFS on our secular gov't.
You may not like his personal beliefs but he has not demonstrated he would impose those beliefs on Amercians through policy. Never.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)http://www.nrlc.org/archive/ObamaAbortionAgenda/BidenProofVoteForHatchAmendToOverturnRoe.pdf
I remember vividly the first time, in 1973, I had to go to the floor to vote on abortion. A fellow Senator asked how I would vote. My position is that I am personally opposed to abortion, but I dont think I have a right to impose my few on the rest of society. Ive thought a lot about it, and my position probably doesnt please anyone. I think the government should stay out completely. I will not vote to overturn the Courts decision. I will not vote to curtail a womans right to choose abortion. But I will also not vote to use federal funds to fund abortion.
***
No public funding for abortion; it imposes a view
Q: Are you still opposed to public funding for abortion?
A: I still am opposed to public funding for abortion. It goes to the question of whether or not youre going to impose a view to support something that is not a guaranteed right but an affirmative action to promote.
Source: Meet the Press: 2007 Meet the Candidates series , Apr 29, 2007
***
Supports partial-birth abortion ban, but not undoing Roe
Q: You supported the ban on partial-birth abortions or late-term abortions.
A: I did and I do.
***
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions.
This legislation, if enacted, would ban the abortion procedure in which the physician partially delivers the fetus before completing the abortion. [A NO vote supports abortion rights].
http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Joe_Biden_Abortion.htm
You obviously know NOTHING about Biden and very little about who is actually fighting for our rights.
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)It's the only constitutional amendment to overturn Roe that actually got a floor vote. He voted for it.
Response to underthematrix (Reply #13)
jeff47 This message was self-deleted by its author.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)I'm sure the difference between voting for overturning Roe but not sponsoring it is somehow meaningful.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)What he thinks has ZERO to do with what any woman is prepared to do based on an informed, sensitive consultation with her doctor.
I fear Joe's imagined wisdom more than anyone's ignorance around this issue.
Joe.. STFU
Got it?
Good.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)talked about his beliefs vs. policy in that incredible talk he did...
No one can ever match that speech...
Certainly not Biden...
And I am so SICK of the pandering to this Pope...or any Pope.
If the Vatican is "state" and a Pope represents this entity, then its offshoots should be TAXED!! They get involved in public policy all the time...TAX all churches!!
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)He has accepted the pope in the United States and has been welcoming and respectful. Thank goodness he is president.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)He's another forced birther who thinks we should be incubators for the Church.
He also thinks lgbt people are disordered and shouldn't be allowed to marry or adopt children.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Gloria
(17,663 posts)religious person when making a decision...as if everyone wants to do that or could do that, with the attitudes a lot of them have...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Not as bad as the Pope but telling women who they should and shouldn't consult before they exercise their right to choose is bullshit.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)and Obama has done that, too.
He was in bed with evangelicals and I wrote about it....never have trusted him on this issue...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Religious bigots usually all agree on one thing: women's and lgbt rights.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)for Obama on preachers, Matthew, justice dept. all the deals he was making, including the big religious media people....UGH
Never gung ho on this guy from the start.....
Just google InsightAnalytical and you'll see a treasure trove of crap on Obama behind the scenes as
he was trying to get elected...Hence, the PUMAs...
wundermaus
(1,673 posts)False.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Harry Reid has the same POV. He doesn't foist it on others, though.
He can parse, and he does.
Not sure why people are excited or annoyed by this--it's not news.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)a helpful contribution to the conversation while womens' reproductive rights are under attack by people who would shame and blame them.
But Biden has a lot to answer for, if he's running. If his statements around his historical support of things like the drug war or the bankruptcy bill are anything like this, I predict practically zero enthusiasm for him in the primaries.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Both the egg and sperm are in fact, human life. Ascribing some kind of completely arbitrary metaphysical properties to human tissue at the point of conception is nothing more than hocus pocus nonsense.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Life began somewhere around 4 billion years ago, most likely.
Laffy Kat
(16,377 posts)He could have phrased it differently. Made him look like a wuss. Disappointing.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I remember vividly the first time, in 1973, I had to go to the floor to vote on abortion. A fellow Senator asked how I would vote. My position is that I am personally opposed to abortion, but I dont think I have a right to impose my few on the rest of society. Ive thought a lot about it, and my position probably doesnt please anyone. I think the government should stay out completely. I will not vote to overturn the Courts decision. I will not vote to curtail a womans right to choose abortion. But I will also not vote to use federal funds to fund abortion.
***
No public funding for abortion; it imposes a view
Q: Are you still opposed to public funding for abortion?
A: I still am opposed to public funding for abortion. It goes to the question of whether or not youre going to impose a view to support something that is not a guaranteed right but an affirmative action to promote.
Source: Meet the Press: 2007 Meet the Candidates series , Apr 29, 2007
***
Supports partial-birth abortion ban, but not undoing Roe
Q: You supported the ban on partial-birth abortions or late-term abortions.
A: I did and I do.
***
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions.
This legislation, if enacted, would ban the abortion procedure in which the physician partially delivers the fetus before completing the abortion. [A NO vote supports abortion rights].
http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Joe_Biden_Abortion.htm
He's mixed choice, and that's a deal breaker for me.
Liberty Belle
(9,534 posts)In choosing future Supreme Court justices or vetoing say, a 20-week abortion ban, waiting periods, etc.
Hillary or Bernie are much better choices if you care about making sure women's lives, health, safety, and choices are protected.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)His mixed choice record tells me he would probably allow his beliefs to influence his decisions in the future.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)Here is an excerpt and a link to the full article:
1. The laws impact is limited almost entirely to poor women. The late Henry Hyde (R-IL), the conservative congressman who first proposed the amendment, acknowledged this reality during a Medicaid funding debate in 1977, when he told his colleagues:
I certainly would like to prevent, if I could legally, anybody having an abortion: a rich woman, a middle-class woman or a poor woman. Unfortunately, the only vehicle available is the Medicaid bill.
2. About 42 percent of women who have abortions live below the poverty line. The unintended pregnancy rate among poor women is five times the rates for higher-income women, as is the abortion rate. One reported reason for the discrepancy is poor womens limited access to contraception.
3. By restricting Medicaid funding for abortion, one in four low-income women who would like to obtain abortions are instead forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. Since the Hyde Amendment was enacted more than 35 years ago, over one million women have been unable to afford abortions.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)It should be federally funded like any other necessary, legal medical procedure.
Depriving poor women of their reproductive choices is illiberal, anti-choice and imo despicable.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)Fairgo
(1,571 posts)...we have to debate this, but I am glad you are in here defending health equity and reproductive rights. "Life begins..." It doesn't matter. Its a moot point. Worse, that framing is devious politics masquerading as morality when it is mouthed by a politician speaking from their role in any venue. It's a woman's body, its her decision, and it should be available to all if available to any...without judgement or even freaking comment. Nothing. else. matters.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)Wade.
Is this not correct?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)I'm not necessarily the person to defend Clinton's record, but she's certainly better than Biden on reproductive rights.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Our OP "cited" a National Review article that deceptively edited the comments Biden made in this interview:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B64aMhgtMmKyRDFsb1k5R0NEb0U&usp=sharing
The first link on that page is the PDF. Watch the interview at the second link - the discussion of abortion starts at 13:26.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Or are you going to claim national right to life is lying?
How about his repeated votes for the Hyde amendment? And repeated statements supporting the Hyde amendment? Can't have any federal money going to those icky sluts for their abortions.
Yeah, it's all about National Review. There are zero other sources on the planet. And history started when that article was published.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)To the best of my knowledge, the subject was never broached.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)because they are such an untrustworthy source.
He actually has a record. That one interview is not the entirety of his history.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The attempt to dismiss criticism from women who are losing the battle for reproductive rights is pathetic.
There is a war on women, DUers either need to get on board with those of us who are fighting for our lives or get out of the way.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)even though I have a Y chromosome.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Well?
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)is that National Review, notorious for their right-wing prevarications, edited Biden's remarks to suit an agenda - as evidenced specifically by the video.
That they were the only source at the time this OP was posted is only indicative of the seminal poster's rush to attack.
Now, with the passage of some time, a few other outlets have picked up this bombshell. This might have been a better source, starting with the title:
Biden: Abortion always wrong in Catholic doctrine
The few quotes are more complete, while still lacking the nuance of his comments.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)They were the only source you bothered to look at.
Feel free to explain the nuance in his vote to amend the Constitution to overrule Roe.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)If there were other (better) sources, then the seminal poster's use of NRO is even more despicable.
There was no discussion of that in the interview. Start a thread about it and, if it's interesting, perhaps I'll participate.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Really?
How about these anti-abortion folks bitching about him not voting their way a few times?
For example, throughout his Senate career Biden voted for the Hyde Amendment, prohibiting most federal funding of abortion. Indeed, Biden explicitly advocated that the Hyde Amendment should contain an exception only to save the life of the mother, and he voted repeatedly against adding exceptions for rape and incest to the amendment. Biden also consistently voted for the federal ban on partial-birth abortions. He expressed concern that the so-called Freedom of Choice Act would go too far in overturning state abortion limitations.
Congress.gov is apparently down right now, but here's the roll call on the amendment to overturn Roe.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/97th-congress/senate-joint-resolution/110
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Thanks for playing.
thereismore
(13,326 posts)Response to Attorney in Texas (Original post)
thereismore This message was self-deleted by its author.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)No way could I vote for someone so lacking in understanding and compassion for women and the biological and psychological realities that are sometimes faced un pregnancy. Pregnancy is far less dangerous today than it was in the past but it can be very dangerous for both mother and fetus or fetuses and our society does little to help women who are pregnant but unable to carry or care for a baby.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)Biden can believe what he likes. I know people who oppose abortion because they are catholic, they should not have an abortion if they feel that way.
His position wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't for the unrelenting attacks on legal abortion and the successful tactics to erode the availability of abortion we really can't give an inch on this issue.
RandySF
(58,776 posts)And you believe that rag?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Do explain why we shouldn't be upset about this, Fred.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)attention to what is important to the Democratic Party, concentrating on the enemy and not the allies.
If.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Kudos for honesty, beam me up!
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Because hey, it's not like YOUR life is on the line with the legislation Biden signed.
Amirite, Fred?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Like I said, my aim is just fine, Fred.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)His personal opinion about abortion is irrelevant.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)rights.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Not that I was ever enthusiastic about him in the first place
RandySF
(58,776 posts)National Review (N.R.) is a semimonthly magazine founded by author William F. Buckley, Jr., in 1955 and based in New York City. It describes itself as "America's most widely read and influential magazine and web site for conservative news, commentary, and opinion."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Review
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Lychee2
(405 posts)On Wed Sep 23, 2015, 01:46 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Joe Biden: Abortion Is Always Wrong
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251614713
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
The OP cites a deceptively edited article from the National Review, a right wing publication of the Heritage Foundation.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Sep 23, 2015, 01:53 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Honesty is the best policy, please leave it alone
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If there's a list of forbidden links at DU, admin will post them. Until then, I'm not going to play Joe McCarthy for your benefit.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Since the National Review links back to the transcript of the original interview and Biden seems to have actually said this Isay let it stay. Any one really interested can follow the links to the original. Not happy to give NR the clicks but it is what it is.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: National Review? I hope this OP gets removed for posting from such a source.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: If someone cites an RW publication, DUers should refute it, not hide it. That's the collision of truth with error. Are we so afraid of these ogres at the NR that we hide their reactionary views from each other's eyes? Are we afraid we can't refute them? That's disgraceful.
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OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Glad to see someone is paying attention, though.
Backwoodsrider
(764 posts)There is little chance a democrat can live that one down. Every democrat I know is prochoice so Joe must of decided not to run or maybe he has the ability to just be him self while still possibly running for president. I think we will find out within the week
David__77
(23,372 posts)I'm more interested in what he advocates to do, and why. Here, my understanding is that he supports access to abortion. I'm fine with that.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)He's got several anti-choice votes on his record. Most notably, he's repeatedly voted and stated that he does not want federal funds to pay for abortion.
"Access" includes being able to pay for it.
LostOne4Ever
(9,288 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I would expect this type of patronizing and utterly chauvinistic view from a republican, not a liberal politician.
He needs to sit down, educate himself on the issue, and seriously reconsider his position.[/font]
Squinch
(50,949 posts)pro-life people, but I have no argument with Joe here. He's agreeing to keep his beliefs out of my uterus, so there is nothing more I need from him.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)for the Human Life Federalism Amendment to repeal Roe v. Wade.
It seems an awful lot like he is imposing his belief on other people.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Apparently it's okay when Joe does it because he's got a d after his name.
Can you imagine the outrage if Bernie had cast those votes?
Metric System
(6,048 posts)record contradicts his assertion.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)He's repeatedly voted and spoken for banning federal funding for abortion.
That is imposing his personal beliefs.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)piling on ben carson because he tried to link a religious view with a public office and said they could not be kept apart, which most here (rightly so imo) said was bullshit
joe has said this is his personal religious conviction. if he keeps it there and does not bring it into public policy, isn't this the perfect refutation of ben carson's bigotry?
LWolf
(46,179 posts)the idea that anyone, believers or unbelievers, are supposed to FEAR "God."
If I were a Christian following Christ, the message would not be to fear, or to judge, but to love.
I know that "fearing god" is an old testament theme. It's been used to rope the faithful into line, kind of like some people do in general elections when their corporate nominee does not inspire the masses...invoking that fear of the "other" to keep people in line.
It's also used like a parent threatening kids with punishment for bad behavior.
I don't respond well to those kinds of threats; I never have, which is something that people indoctrinated into that kind of "fear authority, and look to that authority to protect you from the other evil" kind of mindset never "get."
So there is an instant disconnect with Biden's words about "God-fearing" people. I'll damn well deny that label.
Of course, as a woman, I also don't need him to be making any judgments about my body and its reproductive capabilities. Thankfully, he also said that he's "not prepared to impose doctrine" on the rest of the country. Hopefully, that doesn't mean that someday he will be prepared.
YabaDabaNoDinoNo
(460 posts)Fear is what keeps people in line and fear closes ones mind. Fear is why they also do good. Do y and please deity win a prize.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)but it sure is the foundation of many.
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)What's right or wrong to do with that womb. I wouldn't even begin to think I had any right to tell another human being what they can or can't do to/with their own body. It's offensive when men voice an opinion on abortion - UNLESS IT'S THEIR WIFE/GIRLFRIEND /SIGNIFICANT OTHER, they may have input, but it's still the woman's CHOICE.
Otherwise, it's none if your effing business what other women do with their bodies and to say flat out "abortion is ALWAYS WRONG" is just fucked up. Rape? Incest? Stillborn baby? Mother's life is at risk? Can't afford it? Doesn't want to have a baby? ALWAYS WRONG? My ass!
Do women go around giving opinions about what men should or shouldn't do with their reproductive organs? NO! We deserve the same respect. Thank you very much.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)that issue is Not yours to decide. It's mine. If you believe Abortion is Always Wrong, then.....might I suggest that You personal abstain from ever having that procedure performed on you. That is exercising CHOICE
Biden joins the attack on Women's Rights?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)There is a difference between the proverbial guy at the bar who opines on everything and POTUS.
I believe in a true "culture of life." I too oppose abortion, euthanasaia, the death penalty, and unjust war. However I realize we live in a pluralistic society where the "individual is sovereign over his own mind, body, and soul " and decisions on what to do with it should be beyond the reach of the state.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)This statement reflects his beliefs, at least based on his record. And while I don't agree -- abortion is often wrong, but not always -- Biden hasn't tried to impose his belief on others, unlike Huckabee and his ilk.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Yes he has, he voted to overturn Roe v Wade, ban federal funding for abortions and late term abortions.
He IS imposing his belief on me.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)have the absolute, unquestionable right to have control over their own body.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Sure sign that one camp is about economic justice, equality for the rest be damned. I hate the praise being heaped on the Pope as he spreads hate around the world that will lead to beatings, death, and the hatred of great people. Hundreds of ops on how bad Hillary is. Dozens on the greatness of the Pope. There was even a recent post here about how Hillary evolved and it was done in a way to trash her. Same poster is praising the Pope. Really fucked up.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Way to cherry pick one group of people to broad brush.
One camp is about equality for all, the other supports a candidate who just came around to that way of thinking in 2013.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)As usual, you start your discussion with something I never said. Really a poor tactic you have used with me time and time again. If you have to make a dishonest claim as to what others are saying in order to make your point, you might want to rethink your point. It is clear you answered without reading. That is standard for your replies to me. Have a wonderful day.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You're the one making a dishonest claim, NCTraveler and it's not the first time you've used this "poor tactic" to attack Bernie's supporters.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Because we're all ONLY concerned with economic justice, amirite?
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)To me, abortion is always a wedge issue that no one wins on except Republicans by just riling people up since they have nothing else to recommend them for.
Stating that, my stance has always been that I would love for abortion to not happen(everybody would want to avoid it to begin with), but I understand that it does.
Where, abortion is a symptom of the problem rather than an actual problem, and anti-choicers don't seem to get that.
To lessen the instances of such a thing touches many many issues that Republicans just hurt.
-Medical Care
-Cost of Living
-Cost of the Baby
-Pre-natal and Post-natal care
-Broken families
-General Instability in people's lives
-Raising a child alone, cost and time, so consider day care
In ALL of those factors, Republicans hurt families, and in fact I will blame there for any sort of rise in abortions because they create insecurity and their actions cause a rise in hardship on all the factors that would directly increase the probability of an abortion.
Joe Biden is not always the sharpest speaker, but in essence, I get where he is coming from.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)I'm really tired of arguments that more-or-less say "abortion is icky" and then try to change to another topic.
I want every woman who wants to get an abortion to get one. Heck, I'd like them to hand out a lovely gift basket after each one.
I care about abortion and I care about proper medical care that includes contraception. There is no point in trying to couch this in "avoid abortion" language. That is just continuing the framing that abortion is a terrible thing. And that framing is the largest success of the anti-abortion zealots.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)I know it happens, and I am glad the possibility of it happening and that it is safe and legal is great. I am happy about that. What I was saying is that I would love for it not to have to happen. I know I did not quite phrase it that way, but it is definitely hard to phrase.
What it means is, that I would love to limit the factors that come to having that decision. Meaning, if they actually care about pre and post natal care a bit more, then people have more options. If they are secure and stable, and have the facilities to take care of children, perhaps more would be influenced to keep the child rather than having an abortion.
I can see your point in the framing of the language, however, please note that many could not get to that point, so you have to find points which they might actually understand. Because not all can get to that easily, so you have to mention the factors that put a person to that choice. Then explain how Republicans are actually the ones causing those factors to become worse.
That is the only way I was able to get someone to understand why Republicans are actually worse in regards to the issue of abortion rather than Democrats. I do try to work on the common ground, and I think about the factors that influence the choice. I am very happy there is a choice, and would never wish to limit that. I work on trying to make them understand why the people they are supporting is actually worse for their issue than those who are pro-choice.
I hope I clarified things a bit better.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)then that is precisely the framing I am complaining about.
That step inherently defines abortion as "bad". Which invites attacks on abortion - after all, most "bad" things get regulated in our country.
Access to contraception is good regardless of abortion. And abortion for women who want it is good regardless of access to contraception. You don't need to connect the two.
No, we really don't.
People resort to that framing because almost no one has been pushing "access to abortion is good" by itself. Instead, people keep trying to use contraception access almost as an excuse for supporting abortion.
We don't have to keep doing that. We do not have to accept the existing framing. Yes, it will not instantly work on all voters. But someone has to start pushing the line in the other direction, or it will continue to slide towards anti-abortion.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)Like I mentioned, we work on different people.
I can appreciate your position, but I have found that I have swayed some to look at things a bit differently, which is important to me. Particularly as I talk to those who are religious.
Orangepeel
(13,933 posts)It would only be a problem if he tried to impose that belief on others
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And he supported other anti-choice legislation too.
Orangepeel
(13,933 posts)I'm not defending Biden. I'm genuinely curious because I don't know how that would work.
The 75% NARAL rating in 2007 is disconcerting. I'd like to know what that's about.
http://votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/53279/joe-biden-jr/75#.VgNOl8T3aK0
Abortion and Reproductive
2008 Planned Parenthood Action Fund - Positions 100%
2007-2008 National Organization for Women - Positions 100%
2007 NARAL Pro-Choice America - Positions 75%
2007 Population Connection - Positions on Population Stabilization 100%
2006 NARAL Pro-Choice America - Positions 100%
2006 Planned Parenthood Action Fund - Positions 100%
2006 Population Connection - Positions 100%
2005-2006 National Family Planning & Reproductive Health Association - Positions 93%
2005-2006 National Organization for Women - Positions 91%
2005-2006 Population Action International - Positions on Reproductive Health 100%
2005 NARAL Pro-Choice America - Positions 100%
2005 National Organization for Women - Positions 100%
2005 Population Connection - Positions 100%
2005 The Population Institute - Positions 100%
2004 NARAL Pro-Choice America - Positions 100%
2003-2004 Population Action International - Positions 100%
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Vinca
(50,269 posts)There are medical problems that render a pregnant woman a living and breathing coffin for a child that will come into the world unable to survive on its own. I can't imagine carrying a child for months on end knowing the end result will be a funeral and not a birthday party. At least he is reasonable enough not to insist everyone believe as he does . . . unlike a Republican.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Me, my personal feelings, "personal" as in, my business only, not to be imposed on anyone else or delegated to the state to control, limit or impede anyone,s access to the "personal" care of someones health and well being.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)His personal views are irrelevant.
Attorney in Texas
(3,373 posts)votes and his other positions which have resulted in his low NARAL rating whow that his personal views DO affect his votes.