Clinton angry at gay-friendly passports, worried about Fox/Palin

[Prism]

Yeah, said it a billion times. Clinton will do the safe thing and little more. When faced with the possibility that Sarah Palin might have a sad at LGBT friendly passport changes, Hillary threw a fit:

Some exchanges show Clinton demonstrating a sensitivity to potential political difficulty — particularly in anticipating attacks from Republicans. Clinton appeared perturbed after she read a Washington Post story about State deciding to make U.S. passport forms gender neutral, a change that was considered a victory for gay rights groups.

“Who made the decision that State will not use the terms ‘mother and father’ and instead substitute “parent one and two’?” she wrote to Mills on Jan. 8, 2011. “I’m not defending that decision, which I disagree w and knew nothing about, in front of this Congress. I could live w letting people in nontraditional families choose another descriptor so long as we retained the presumption of mother and father. We need to address this today or we will be facing a huge Fox-generated media storm led by Palin et al.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/clinton-kept-a-close-eye-on-her-reputation-state-e-mails-show/2015/09/30/cf24a130-67aa-11e5-8325-a42b5a459b1e_story.html

LGBT families or Clinton's political career - which one will always come first with her?

[peacebird]

1. Ah yes, Hillary the "Leader", worried more about bad publicity than real families.

huge surprise, not.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

27. Hillary shows her true colors once again...why this country needs a visionary like Bernie!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[roguevalley]

36. she can live with that. It really is

all about her. More of that milk of human kindness.

[Duckfan]

55. If Senator Warren said yes to being the V.P. if she was selected...

I would be one of a million other people that would be doing flips to get them in the W H. An awsome ticket. But then again, I could just be dreaming.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

67. I think it's a foregone conclusion Warren would say yes to Bernie when he offers her the VP slot on the ticket...and when duty calls...

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[jeff47]

80. No. Warren can be far more effective in the Senate.

Give someone else the VP slot so Warren can keep accomplishing things in the Senate for us.

[Fred Sanders]

2. Disappointing email dump today, wasn't it? The disappointment is palpable, and not just RW. Sad.

but not to worry, there are always back up plans for the daily utterly unconvincing Clinton bashing at DU...for what reason is the question?

[Prism]

3. Disappointment requires expectations

Fortunately, I have none.

[Fawke Em]

11. I don't care what she says to her staff in emails.

I care that operatives in China and Russia know about them (and national security secrets) because the server didn't have even basic security.

That's not a bash: it's a legitimate issue.

Of course, most of our media would rather pluck the low-hanging fruit of gossip than investigate what security measures the Clintons took to secure their server and its contents.

[Prism]

14. I think what she says here matters

Because it offers a window into her thinking and lays bare where her priorities are. When given a choice between a gay-friendly act or facing the wrath of Sarah Palin, she surrendered to Palin.

That isn't to disagree with what you've pointed out about security. I agree. If it comes out that Russia or China had access to her work mails, she's toast.

But when trying to divine just how strong and sincere her newfound deep love of LGBT equality is, things like this are important peeks behind the facade.

[artislife]

57. somehow she doesn't seem

So much like a fighter when this comes to light.

[Fawke Em]

79. Oh, yes. Her thoughts on this issue do matter.

Sorry - didn't mean to make light of that.

My point is that her emailing about this isn't worthy of a Congressional investigation, but it does show she's only about political expediency.

[PoliticAverse]

19. Very disappointing to see that Clinton was letting Palin and Fox News drive the agenda. n/t

[sabrina 1]

40. The OP quotes Hillary more worried about Fox, something that has always made me angry about Dems,

than about the issue of families. More worried about how she might look to Fox. Wth does she care what the think or say? They are a marginal propaganda machine with a few million moronic viewers who, if she went over a cliff to show how 'sensitive' she is to their Conservative viewpoints, they would STILL hate her.

So what about this do you agree or disagree with. Is the leadership in your opinion? Do you think Gays should be treated differently to other citizens in any way?

Bernie doesn't and never did, even before he went into politics. That is why I support him. He gets these issues re people's Civil Rights RIGHT every time and consistently and doesn't worry one bit about Fox or any other bigoted network.

[murielm99]

58. Yep. I guess the McCarthy revelations

have them grasping at straws.

[askew]

4. More proof Hillary doesn't have character or leadership qualities to be president.

That she cares more about the bile spewed by Fox News/Palin than in doing the right thing shows her priorities.

[Fred Sanders]

5. The WP article "proves" there was great disappointment in the email dump today, and anything

anti-Hillary will have to do to make up for it.

[sabrina 1]

41. Were you disappointed? Frankly I could not care less about these distractions which is why THIS OP

is important. It isn't about distractions, if you want to talk about emails, post an OP of your own, why you're bringing it up here, when most people KNOW it is a distraction so we WON'T talk about issues such as the one in the OP is beyond me.

Hillary displays an unwillingness to stand up for people who stood up for her when she needed it. And for the worst of reasons, because of what Fox might think. Fox doesn't 'think' they spew propaganda for the far right fringes of this society. Why on earth woul their opinion of her be more important than the lives of millions of Americans?

Or maybe you don't want to talk about issues. Primaries are about Issues and people ARE going to talk about them whether you like it or not.

[Fred Sanders]

8. The disappointment of nada on the email and the McCarthy bombshell made for a sad, sad, day.

Saw a post that Clinton relieved some emails about Anthony Weiner when the media frenzy was at it's height and a lame attempt to make something, something of that.

"Lame" succinctly describes the radical LW/RW reaction.

Another day, another nothing plucked from enemies of Clinton...because it helps Sanders?

It does not. Full stop.

It is not just exclusively right wingers that have no shame.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

42. I'm a Sanders supporter and I think the McCarthy bombshell was great!

I can't think of a single DU poster other than a short lived troll who thought the Benghazi investigation was anything other than complete crap. I LOVE that it came about from that cretin Sean Hannity's interview. It actually made me laugh when I heard it. I don't give a flying fig about the emails either.

I'm sorry if that messes with your narrative.

[sabrina 1]

44. How sad, really. I see a lot of projection in that comment. I care about THIS COUNTRY.

Sanders doesn't need help, hadn't you noticed? All he needed was to let people know where he stood on the issues and how consistent he has been all his life on those issues, and he didn't need to do another thing. He has defended Hillary over and over again, and yet you slam him and his supporters about something only you seem to be concerned about.

Hillary has major issues problems, period People are not, NOT supporting because they don't like her, they are choosing a leader for this country and they want someone who gets it RIGHT when they have the power to make such decisions.

You are trying to distract people from their right to do what they believe is best for this, projecting your own tactics onto good, decent people, making stuff up and thinking somehow this is going to help, who?

[beam me up scottie]

16. Prism is gay and is not a "Hillary hater".

But how dare he express disappointment in a Dem candidate on DU!!!

Amirite?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

28. One thing is fo sho...Bernie will not disappoint.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[beam me up scottie]

31. He's not perfect but he never pandered to the right wing.

At Liberty U he stood up for our rights much to the dismay of some HC supporters.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

33. I hear ya...but Bernie's perfect enough for me! Gotta love him!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[beam me up scottie]

35. Oh I do, I had the pleasure of both meeting and voting for him.

Vermonters love their junior Senator, the hatred for him here makes me sick.

[sabrina 1]

46. It is sickening especially since he has stood up for their candidate over and over again. It's

mind polluting to read some of what has been posted on this forum about someone whose entire has been devoted to doing good for ALL the people of this country. I don't know how they think behaving like that is going to help their candidate, it isn't and if I were a Hillary supporter I would be embarrassed.

[beam me up scottie]

47. I'm sure some of them are, swift boating Dem candidates makes most DUers cringe.

It's just business as usual in GD P.

[sabrina 1]

50. And it's failing miserably, as Bernie continues his upward trend as more and more people get to know

him. But people are not going to forget the way they behaved for a long time. The false accusations, the bigotry the personal attacks on his supporters, to be honest I've not seen anything like it anywhere.

I don't want to judge all Hillary supporters by what we've seen on this forum, I'm sure many of them are, like most of Bernie's supporters, really good people. But what we see here is thoroughly despicable, and I hope it is confined to a small group because if that is what Democrats have become, we're going to see even more of an exodus from the party than we have over the past few years.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

69. Yes, embarrassed and ashamed...hard to believe the venomous personal attacks against Bernie being spewed by some, not all, on the other side.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

68. I see why you Vermonters love you some Bernie. Our two Senators are both Democrats, but I'd trade em in a heartbeat for Bernie!

[Mnpaul]

118. You do realize that you can have them all

You can keep your Senators and gain Bernie as your President.

[m-lekktor]

7. My gay ass will never vote for her and shit like this is just the tip of the iceberg for me.

Don't even get me started on her neocon foreign policy views. I really don't understand why in hell anybody would chose the likes of her when there is a Bernie Sanders or a Martin O'Malley running. She represents everything that is wrong with politics.

[Prism]

12. The completely baffling thing for me

Is that we finally got a Democratic president on board with us. It took some tugging, some fighting, some drag out brawls, but at the end of the day, I'm pleased to know President Obama will go down in history as the first President and first major presidential candidate to endorse equality.

And now people want to start over with someone else who's reticent and only wants to do what they absolutely must? Why?!

There is a difference between an affectionate hug and a person who pats your shoulders at arm's length.

Hillary strikes me as the latter when it comes to the LGBT community.

[Metric System]

17. BS. I think you should look into her efforts at the State Department RE: LGBT employees.

[Prism]

18. I'm well aware of what she did at State

It was a fairly risk-free move. Even Bush left some benefits for partners alone when he came into office (the religious right threw an absolute fit).

The salient question comes down to Clinton's trustworthiness on LGBT issues. When something like the Equality Act is facing a hard fight in a divided Congress, will she go to the mat? Will she be a Lyndon Johnson? Or will she make some hand waves, shrug, and go, "Oh well, I tried."

That distinction matters. When choosing a candidate, I want to know a candidate is willing to put themselves out there, spend some political capital, be willing to push for the right thing at the expense of their own political standing.

I have yet to really see that from Clinton on LGBT issues, and things like this mail only reinforce my suspicions about the ardor with which she'll pursue LGBT legislative battles in the future. It seems she'll do what she kinda can, as long as it isn't too much trouble.

That is truly not good enough.

[dsc]

75. then why was she the first Obama administration figure to do it

if it was so risk free? Also Bush didn't leave anything alone since he appointed a religious right wacko to enforce the rules who wound up not doing to for gays. So yes Bush did screw the gays but you are so anti Hillary you are wiling to praise Bush, how sad.

[Prism]

103. Take off your partisan glasses for a sec there

It was risk-free for a Democrat to do it. I did not "praise" Bush. I noted that the Clinton administration put in some benefits for LGBT employees that the Bush administration left alone. Just that act, "leaving it alone" was enough to enrage the Religious Right. But acting as if, in 2010, benefits for employees was at the vanguard of championing equality is a bit much. She didn't risk anything, it was fairly cost-free for her to do, and quite frankly, most people didn't care. It meant a lot to us, but your average citizen probably didn't give a high shit. Doing it was admirable, but it is very small potatoes in the balance of equality. Extending benefits while still publicly declaring us to be second class citizens all the way to 2013 does not come anywhere close to being a wash.

Look, I don't envy you. You're in a very strange position in this election. Last time around, we had two candidates with spotty LGBT records, so we had to hash out who was likelier to be good for us. This time around, there's no contest. Sanders wipes the floor with Clinton on LGBT issues. So, the cognitive dissonance has to come fast and furious to make your choice work.

Here you're faced with a window into Clinton's thinking. Not only does she think the heteronormative family must be upheld over an LGBT consideration - which is consonant with her previous statements on marriage, but she shows that she is worried what FOX and Palin think of her should she do something that was applauded by community activist groups. So there is definitely a reticence in her about our community. She'll do things, but she won't stick her neck out.

Personally, I don't know why you bother trying to mop up after her when it comes to our equality. But hey, some people like a challenge.

[jeff47]

81. You mean, like what she said in this email? (nt)

[leftofcool]

15. LMAO!

[Bluenorthwest]

22. You know your response is laughing at a LGBT person for objecting to bigotry toward LGBT persons.

That's extremely nasty business. Instructing minority groups as to how they should conduct themselves is a trait of the right wing. You don't even make a comment, just the internet version of pointing and laughing and I think that's cheap, vulgar and uncalled for in every fucking way.

If you did that to any other minority group on DU you'd not get by with it so easily.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

29. I'm with you!

[DonCoquixote]

51. What is sad is

That the LGBT have stuck by Hillary. Is this the way to reward friends Hillary?

[passiveporcupine]

54. Lot's of room under Hillary's bus

She's just getting started.

[delrem]

64. +1. Well said.

This OP is a great read and I especially like prism's response post #12
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251637075#post12

The question, why? Why go backwards now?

This is the time to move forward. Obama's 2nd term, without the albatross of Hillary Rodham Clinton hanging around the neck of the Dem party, has been day vs night.
The supreme noodle knows that for foreign policy issues Obama's 2nd term has been a laborious task of climbing out of a hole dug by the PNAC team, Bush/Cheney -> Clinton/Kagan. And the TPP is not looking good, at all. But I can accept better, in some ways much better, so long as there's a turning of direction to the positive and progressive.

Clinton represents a step back in time for LGBT issues and for economic and foreign policy issues. For example I can't imagine the beginning of a rapprochement with Cuba and a treaty with and the beginnings of diplomacy with Iran happening under Hillary Rodham Clinton's watch. She hasn't got any of these things in her. She is a politician out of time.

Everything about Hillary Rodham Clinton is wrong for the times.
These should be times of wonder, of hope. Of new beginnings. Not for watching in despair as big banks, war profiteers, investment capital, are unleashed for unrestricted plundering, while Hillary Rodham Clinton laughs and breathes in the adulation of the .01%.

[HooptieWagon]

9. We want a leader, not a weathervane.

[jfern]

10. She waited until gay marriage had 58% supporting to come out for it

So she's not even a good weathervane.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

30. Seriously...Hillary obviously needs better pollsters to tell her what to think.

[beam me up scottie]

13. Hillary is the pragmatic candidate.

Bernie may not be perfect but he sure as hell doesn't pander to homophobic Republicans:

[Bonobo]

25. That's him being actively uninvolved in the legislative process.

I wish we had more politicians who were that uninvolved.

[beam me up scottie]

26. Today's meme is Bernie doesn't care about women and lgbt people.

He's only interested in "trickle down" justice, not social issues.

Keep up!

[Go Vols]

104. +1

[sabrina 1]

48. Bernie is as perfect as we are ever going to get in a politician, and in this country now controlled

by the far right neocons/libs he's practically perfect by comparison. I know that's not saying a lot considering the bunch of cowards who supposedly represent us, but still, I don't remember any other candidate as near perfect on almost all issues and consistently so and willing to fight for them, as this one.

If we miss this chance, we won't get another one probably in any of our lifetimes.

[Doctor_J]

20. no principles. This is so discouraging. If she makes it to the white house, it will be

the same groveling.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

32. Her chances of makin it to the White House diminish by the day. Go Bernie!

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Sounds more than just political, she could live with letting us use other descriptors as long as

the traditional configuration is given special status? That's pretty galling. This language makes my skin crawl.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

34. You're so right Blue...yuk!

[Hydra]

53. Politically she'd gain more by standing on the side of progress

Some people are kicking and screaming, but most of the LBGT hate in my reddest of red states has more or less disappeared.

No, I always felt like she and others had problems "evolving" because they honestly don't like the people who fall outside the religiously designated lines. Not nice, not nice at all...

[delrem]

141. I agree.

I imagine that "not liking" comes easy for war mongering bigots who worship wealth.

She can put on her Methodist at Church uniform and express her bigotry in terms of "the sanctity of marriage", giving her dislike, her bigotry, the imprimatur of God and History, and appear very righteous to like minded people. That's how much she cares. The next day she can make the decision that it's best not to count the war dead, and maybe tell a little joke on TV about how good she feels about liberating Libya, and, through her support for war and war profiteering, being God's gift to Democracy and Freedom. An all round wonderful candidate for POTUS.

[reddread]

23. afraid of a Palin spanking?

you cant fall that far and ever really have been mighty, can you?

[msongs]

24. where is the part where she was "angry" or "threw a fit"? not in the article linked nt

[delrem]

66. Yup. In fact she was a 100% cold political calculating machine.

Cold, except for that she cared about her own ass - and was afraid of FOX and Sarah Palin, so jumped to do their bidding.

This was her thought process. It's how she "triangulated it" and responded.

It's not a very pretty picture, especially for a politician running a campaign about how she's a leader w.r.t. "social issues", and how other candidates are deficient in those regards, and just aren't "practical" and "realistic" about economic/foreign policy matters. Don't understand the deep structure like she does.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

72. So tired of Hillary's carefully poll-tested triangulation...how bout some good old-fashioned leadership? - such as that consistently displayed by Bernie!

I really don't think Hillary has it in her. With Bernie, it's ingrained...just comes naturally.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[moobu2]

37. I would need to see the entire conversation

and also to hear what Hillary has to say about it. She might have been perturbed that such a decision was made without her input or President Obama might have told her he wasn't ready to proceed on it or something else. I give Hillary the benefit of the doubt because she's such a great person and I'm a rational person and suspicious of a comment taken out of context like this.

[nichomachus]

60. She's such a great person?

[moobu2]

76. looks like you've fallen far all the right wing propaganda

spread by none Democrats here and elsewhere. yes, she's a great person.

[snooper2]

88. she is just DREAMY! LOL

[moobu2]

95. She's also the only viable Democrat in the race.

[Capt. Obvious]

78. It was taken out of context

[MindfulOne]

85. "She's such a great person"

Oh man. She wasn't very great on this one occasion.

[zentrum]

38. Yup. Every position is about

…..the weather vane. The image. The manipulation of the media.

We'll be in deep trouble if she becomes president. She will not have the best interests of ordinary people as the top priority. It will always be about the Clinton image, name, legacy.

To object to passports changing in this way is craven as a leader. The reasons she gave are alarming. This designation change would be such a minor advancement. She's a coward.

[toshiba783]

43. Hmmm...

So how did she and the state department end up handling this? Were there any public statements? What terms are now used to define heterosexual and same-sex parents?

[Ino]

77. "The new language was quickly dropped."

What Hillary wants, Hillary gets.
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/09/30/emails-hillary-clinton-angry-about-passports-axing-mother-father/

The Post story quoted a gay-rights group as applauding the State Department for accepting “the reality that hundreds of thousands of kids in this country are being raised by same-sex parents.”

Mrs. Clinton wanted no part of it, foreseeing a public-relations debacle.

“Who made the decision that State will not use the terms “mother and father” and instead substitute “parent one and two”?” Mrs. Clinton wrote, in an email released Wednesday by the State Department as part of a rolling release of her State Department correspondence. “I’m not defending that decision, which I disagree (with) and knew nothing about, in front of this Congress.

“I could live w letting people in nontraditional families choose another descriptor so long as we retained the presumption of mother and father. We need to address this today or we will be facing a huge Fox-generated media storm led by (Sarah) Palin et al.”

About a half hour later, her chief of staff, Cheryl Mills, replied: “Reaching out to folks to find out.”

The new language was quickly dropped.

The following day, Ms. Mills sent to Mrs. Clinton an Associated Press article headlined: “State Department steps back on gender-neutral parentage, won’t replace terms ‘mother,’ ‘father.’ “

[MisterP]

45. 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... "10 Signs that Sanders Has a Gay Problem"; "Why Are Sanders Supporters So

Patronizing to the LGBT?"; "Why Are Sanders Supporters So Defensive When Accused of Homophobia?" "Sanders's Decades of Gay Neglect"

[tomm2thumbs]

49. Ironic she's speaking to Human Rights Campaig this weekend, with Joe Biden, who has better cred?

Last edited Thu Oct 1, 2015, 04:26 PM - Edit history (1)

Oh, and to those that wonder if her email had any effect....

"Within days, the new, gender-neutral language had been dropped from all U.S. passport applications."


more info ref:

http://www.bustle.com/articles/114167-hillary-clintons-clumsy-email-about-gender-neutral-language-could-hurt-her-campaign


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAAahUKEwjt1dP5sqDIAhVREZIKHVHjAiM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalreview.com%2Farticle%2F424865%2Fe-mail-hillary-clinton-lashed-out-staff-over-gay-friendly-passports-brendan-bordelon&usg=AFQjCNEd-B8XBe-uJ3c7JZ6uru6Ip0MHug&sig2=2xjDfB8d_JETE43o2VCVsA

[nichomachus]

56. Is this the same Human Rights Council headed by Saudi Arabia? n/t

[Metric System]

97. It's called the Human Rights Campaign. Maybe you would know the name, if you cared.

[tomm2thumbs]

106. thanks, updated

I appreciate your correction

[Go Vols]

105. Clinton reportedly turned down the opportunity to deliver a keynote speech at the Human Rights Campa

Hillary Clinton will make a guest appearance on this week's season premiere of "Saturday Night Live," The New York Times reports.

Clinton reportedly turned down the opportunity to deliver a keynote speech at the Human Rights Campaign gala in order to make the appearance. The Times reports she and actress Kate McKinnon, who portrays Clinton on "SNL," will appear together in the "cold open" on Saturday night.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/10/hillary-clinton-saturday-night-live-premiere-214335

[RufusTFirefly]

52. Chill! She's still "evolving"! Check back with her in January, 2017. n/t

[PatrickforO]

59. This is kind of sad. Just another time when Clinton was more worried about

negative publicity than actually standing for something.

I've said before that to me, Hillary Clinton more closely resembles a wind sock than someone I could really envision in the White House. She's SO poll- and focus group-driven that it makes me wonder what she really does stand for. If anything.

This is the thing about Bernie. He has stated clearly and then stood by his positions. Not to mention that I LIKE his positions because they will genuinely help millions of Americans have better lives...

But this was a good post. We needed to see it.

[MindfulOne]

61. Prism, here's a screen cap of that very email. It's sickening.

It speaks volumes.

grrrrr.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

71. To call this "sickening" is being kind. Can't wait to hear Hillary's excuse for this crapola.

[DemocraticWing]

62. I liked Hillary quite a bit before this campaign

I'm starting to worry she's something of a homophobe though.

[LuvLoogie]

63. How is "Parent 1" and "Parent 2" gay friendly?

It's asexual. Hillary said she objected to the elimination of Mother and Father as identifiers. She didn't object to the inclusion of other identifiers. Why must mothers and fathers be nuetered in order to make gay couples feel accepted. I think that Hillary just saw it as an overstep of political correctness and that the rabid right would have a field day with something seemingly innocuous.

For the most part, the procreative family unit is still Mother, Father and offspring. I imagine that this issue arises from acquiring passports for minors.

[MADem]

65. I agree with your comments.

I also agree with the idea that the wingnuts would turn it into a WAR ON CHRISTMAS-type scenario.

You can leave a form blank and allow the person filling it in to describe their relationship to say, a youthful passport bearer: mother (and there can be more than one), father (same deal), guardian, uncle, aunt, etc. Not every child (or adult) needing State Department services comes from a June and Ward Cleaver family.

[jeff47]

82. If you were adopted by two gay men, who should be put down as "mother"?

If you were the child of a lesbian couple, who should be put down as "father"?

The fact that you don't get this at all means you need to spend a lot more time trying to understand it.

[LuvLoogie]

100. I understand it.

Hillary was talking about letting people self-identify as opposed to eliminating the terms of mother & father to a neutered form, what is wromg with making an opyion with two mothers or two fathers? Are you saying that gay woman would rather be refered to as parent as opposed to mother.

The care roles are changing for heterosexual couples as well, But there is nothing wrong with choosing to gender qualify your relation to a minor as opposed to neutering it.

Your perspective is your perspective.

[jeff47]

101. No, you don't. Because there was no "two mother option".

The form said "Mother" and "Father". It was changed to "Parent 1" and "Parent 2". She changed the form back to "Mother" and "Father".

There was no "Mother" and "Mother" option. There was no "Father" and "Father" option.

[LuvLoogie]

113. She changed it to include Mother, Father and Parent

The signature section of the current application has three signature lines.

one line states: Applicant's Legal Signature - age 16 and older

the other two lines are identical and state: Mother/Father/Parent/Legal Guardian's Signature (if identifying minor)

So I would say I understand quite clearly.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/212239.pdf

[Maven]

96. Do you really not understand the difference between bio parents and legal parents?

[LuvLoogie]

114. So an adoptive mother is not a mother?

And an adoptive father is not a father?

Are you saying that all gay persons who are parents, adoptive or biological, identify themselves as such?: "I am little Bobby's parent."

and not

"I am little Bobby's Mom." or "I am little Bobby's Dad."

Is it gay friendly to neuter a gay parent who prefers to identify as a Mother or Father?

Again, Hillary objected to the replacement of Mother/Father by Parent--not to the inclusion of Parent as an identifier.

[haikugal]

70. She's everything I thought she was...ugh!

Bernie really cares about us. Wow how pathetic Clinton is.

[TM99]

73. This comes as no surprise to me.

She is more concerned with maintaining her persona than she is in connecting with others in a meaningful and empathic way.

This should confirm that she will always put herself and her ambitions above the rights and welfare of others. No thanks, I will take a genuinely caring Sanders instead.

[msanthrope]

74. Explain how being labelled "parent 2" is gay friendly? No gay parent I know would stand to be

called such.

[jeff47]

83. Calling a gay man "mother" or a lesbian "father" is gay friendly? (nt)

[msanthrope]

89. If they choose it. Allowing the person applying to choose their own label...?

Mother or father, is more appropriate than parent 1 or parent 2.

[jeff47]

91. And when neither woman wants to declare herself a man on a government form?

You really, really, really, really do not get this.

[msanthrope]

93. Then they both choose mother. They choose. nt

[jeff47]

102. The form had a space for "Mother" and "Father". They did not get to both choose mother. (nt)

[msanthrope]

107. Right...and the point is that HRC was saying you don't change

that to parent #1 &2....you change that to Mother and Father, they choose.....which is how you do it now.

[Puglover]

108. Are you really really really really

surprised at all the straight splaining going on here?

I certainly am not.

[Puglover]

109. Edited

Replied to myself.

[MindfulOne]

84. What is your alternative solution?

.
Simply eliminating gender reference is the most inclusive way this could have been done.

Do you propose longer forms with father/father, mother/father, mother/mother, father/prefer not to answer, prefer not to answer/prefer not to answer, and mother/prefer not to answer options?

Puh-lease.

[msanthrope]

87. Mother and Father. Have the person choose what they are. nt

[MindfulOne]

92. What if two women as parents both want to identify as mother?

.

"Sorry, one of you is going to have to be the father in this relationship."

It doesn't work.

It's institutionalized homophobia, it excludes and dismisses people's identities.

[msanthrope]

94. Then that's what they both choose. Read the email......

Secretary Clinton wasn't saying that there had to be one mother and one father nearly that the use of the label should continue.

[Metric System]

98. The compromise was "Mother or Parent 1" and "Father or Parent 2," from what I've read.

[JoePhilly]

99. Apparently these folks never read "Heather has two mommies".

DU's manufactured outrage factory runs 24/7.

And today, its spitting out some low quality outrage widgets.

[LuvLoogie]

120. Why don't you look at the form before you jump to conclusions.

The signature section of the current application has three signature lines.

one line states: Applicant's Legal Signature - age 16 and older

the other two lines are identical and state: Mother/Father/Parent/Legal Guardian's Signature (if identifying minor)



http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/212239.pdf

[MindfulOne]

121. Why don't you look at the form in use at the time of the email 2011, and not the 2013 version?

I'm glad you posted the new version, which makes sense.

But it's not what was in use when Hillary wrote that insensitive and mean email.

[LuvLoogie]

136. What form is THAT you just posted?

What is Municipal International University? It's dated 2014....Hmmm let's just set this one aside for a moment and assume you meant to post the 2011 government form.

The government form was already in use. Hillary didn't create it. A change was presented to her; she presented an alternative. The alternative was adopted.

Insensitive and mean?! It was an email to her aide.

[WillyT]

86. K & R !!!

[MindfulOne]

90. Riiiight. LGBT families are "kind of" "sort of" equal but, ya know, second class.

Her words:

"I could live w letting people in nontraditional families choose another descriptor so long as we retained the presumption of mother and father,"

Why, Hillary? Why that "presumption of mother and father"?

Answer that fucking question, explain how same sex parents can be truly equal AND still elevate hetero couples to the presumptive status.

[Puglover]

110. The furious spinning

and straight splaining are hilarious. And it expect it to get much much worse.

[frylock]

111. How can Hillary face down Putin if she can't even face down Palin et al?

[LuvLoogie]

128. She protected America from a bought of broadcasted Wasila Whine.

She's not afraid of Palin. She just doesn't like to see and hear her, I suspect. And in thatshe has a lot of company.

[frylock]

129. She protected America.

hmmn

[LuvLoogie]

130. ....And heeeere's Bristol...

Weee...!!! DU and the Palins can join hands now!

[frylock]

131. I can't imagine what Hillary would do to avoid having Bristol chirping at her..

maybe attack Iran. idk

[LuvLoogie]

132. Ironically, the day Hillary sent this email

Gabrielle Giffords was shot.

[LuvLoogie]

115. Here's the actual form...

But hey, there are at least another 30,000 or so opportunities to find more anti-Hillary fodder in Emailghazi.

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/212239.pdf

[JoePhilly]

116. Hillary designed that form?????

Ok, now I hate her!!!!

[MindfulOne]

122. That is NOT the form that was in use at the time of the email.

That form says 2013 at the bottom. It is a good solution to the problem that existed at the time.

Here's an earlier version:



They struck a good compromise, they didn't go with Parent 1 and Parent 2, but what you showed was not in use at the time.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/mother-and-father-replaced-by-parent-1-and-parent-2/

[LuvLoogie]

126. I get that, but DU is making Hillary's more inclusive alternative

to the neutered change as some kind of anger-driven, anti-gay atrocity. She should have allowed the change to Parent 1 and Parent 2, and then changed it again to the more inclusive solution? How does that make sense?

She doesn't make the forms, but it seems like she has to sign off on any changes. Somebody presented the change to her. Someone who was not the Secretary of State. The current form is better than both the original AND the first proposed change. Wouldn't you agree?

Thanks Hillary!

[JoePhilly]

117. Post #112 in this thread was hidden (not mine) ... Why???

I noticed it because I was posting a bit below it.

So I looked to see what it was. A Hillary supporter? A Bernie supporter? What did they say?

If that post gets a hide, DU is headed for joke-site status.

[Capt. Obvious]

124. Alert stalking

Obviously

[JoePhilly]

125. Looks that way to me too.

[MindfulOne]

123. Some serious spin going on here. The old form said "mother" or "father", here's a pic:

The current form allows the parental adults to select "mother", "father", or "parent", thus allowing for any combination of adults and not holding one form of partnership above another. Better than "parent 1" and "parent 2", which was not particularly thoughtful.

Hillary's comments are disgusting.

Here's an earlier version, the one in use that Hillary seemed to be defending:



They struck a good compromise, they didn't go with Parent 1 and Parent 2.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/mother-and-father-replaced-by-parent-1-and-parent-2/

[LuvLoogie]

127. She opposed the offered change and suggested an alternative,

which is better than both the old form and the change to parent 1 and parent 2. Thanks Hillary!

She wasn't opposed to changing the form. But wait, there's at least 30,000 more chances to be disgusted with Hillary.

[beam me up scottie]

133. You don't think lgbt people should be disgusted with her over this?

[LuvLoogie]

134. Some people on DU who identify as gay

are expressing disgust with Hillary based on their interpretation of an email and the assumptions they make about her motivations and actions.

What I think about their disgust is irrelevent. It is theirs.

I hold a different interpretation of the email than what the OP offers. The evidence of the current form is proof that the form was changed to be both nuetral and more inclusive--a better outcome than both the original form and the first proposed change because it allows both same sex couples and heterosexual couples to identify as either mother, father, parent or legal guardian if that's what they are. Much better than Parent1 or Parent2. I think Hillary presented the better of the three coices, and that is what was adopted.

It is also possible to have two opposite-sex parents of the same NAME, such as Christopher Jones or Michael Smith or Robin Brooks...

One would be the Mother, the other the Father if they so chose.

I think this latest revealed atrocity by Hillary Clinton was actually a wonky impetus for allowing more people an equal opportunity to identify themselves in relation to their sponsored minor.

[beam me up scottie]

135. So they have every right to be disgusted with her, this isn't just an excuse to bash Hillary?

Because this is what you said about the op who is gay:

But wait, there's at least 30,000 more chances to be disgusted with Hillary.

[LuvLoogie]

137. No. You are citing my response to Mindful One.

Mindful one was presenting a form specific argument, and I presented the argument that Hillary was not opposed to changing the form, but was opposed to the specific change that was presented--parent 1 and parent 2.

Again, I think there are other people on DU who identify as LGBT and are not disgusted by this as they hold a different interpretation of both the email and the following actions. Do they have right to hold that view?

[beam me up scottie]

138. Of course they do, but the op was accused of being a Hillary hater for posting this.

He has every right to be disgusted and didn't deserve to be accused of using this as an opportunity to bash Hillary.

[LuvLoogie]

139. Remember when Hillary wasn't saying or doing anything this past spring?

People were bashing her for that as well. People here don't need an excuse to bash Hillary. The links to email, quotes out of context,recordings of laughs, are mere formalities.

Again, whether one is disgusted with Hillary is not my concern. I will from time to time argue against an unfair accusation toward her and make my case.

[beam me up scottie]

140. Then take it up with the Hillary "bashers"

This particular email is disgusting and the op's concerns are valid.

[jfern]

142. Does Hillary care more what Fox News and Sarah Palin think of her

than what the left thinks of her? It sure seems that way.

[Aerows]

143. But look, yon sunlight beams down upon her

She has evolved for 2015. Choirs are singing, a heavenly ray is shining down...

Yeah. She has evolved alright.