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DanTex

(20,709 posts)
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 11:58 AM Oct 2015

The Minimum Wage: How Much is Too Much?

A good read for people bashing Hillary for "only" supporting a 66% increase in the minimum wage, up to $12, which would be an all-time high after adjusting for inflation.

THE federal minimum wage has been stuck at $7.25 an hour since 2009. While Congress has refused to take action, Democratic politicians have been engaged in something of a bidding war to propose raising the minimum wage ever higher: first to $10.10, then to $12, and now some are pushing for $15 an hour.

...

I am frequently asked, “How high can the minimum wage go without jeopardizing employment of low-wage workers? And at what level would further minimum wage increases result in more job losses than wage gains, lowering the earnings of low-wage workers as a whole?”

Although available research cannot precisely answer these questions, I am confident that a federal minimum wage that rises to around $12 an hour over the next five years or so would not have a meaningful negative effect on United States employment. One reason for this judgment is that around 140 research projects commissioned by Britain’s independent Low Pay Commission have found that the minimum wage “has led to higher than average wage increases for the lowest paid, with little evidence of adverse effects on employment or the economy.” A $12-per-hour minimum wage in the United States phased in over several years would be in the same ballpark as Britain’s minimum wage today.

But $15 an hour is beyond international experience, and could well be counterproductive. Although some high-wage cities and states could probably absorb a $15-an-hour minimum wage with little or no job loss, it is far from clear that the same could be said for every state, city and town in the United States.

More logical is the proposed legislation from Senator Patty Murray, Democrat of Washington, and Robert C. Scott, Democrat of Virginia, calling for raising the federal minimum wage to $12 an hour by 2020. Their bill is co-sponsored by 32 senators, and supported by President Obama and Hillary Clinton. High-wage cities and states could raise their minimums to $15.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/opinion/sunday/the-minimum-wage-how-much-is-too-much.html
53 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Minimum Wage: How Much is Too Much? (Original Post) DanTex Oct 2015 OP
Advertisement on the bottom of my page: JaneyVee Oct 2015 #1
Honestly I don't think there is "too much" yourout Oct 2015 #2
Of course there is "too much" Cali_Democrat Oct 2015 #16
The frame gives away the game. hifiguy Oct 2015 #49
Here's an idea... Fearless Oct 2015 #3
Ok. Think about it. We make 35 dollars the minimum wage yeoman6987 Oct 2015 #32
Maybe you want to read the rest of what I wrote? Fearless Oct 2015 #43
Without labor no "wealth" would exist... AOR Oct 2015 #4
That song brings a tear to my eye kenfrequed Oct 2015 #7
Taft-Hartley was a stake through the heart of labor... AOR Oct 2015 #12
Solidarity, my friend. I am glad you are posting. Nt F4lconF16 Oct 2015 #9
Solidarity F4lconF16... AOR Oct 2015 #13
Solidarity with all workers of the world! azmom Oct 2015 #30
+1 AOR Oct 2015 #51
Here's what one famous and noted commie said: hifiguy Oct 2015 #38
So simple a statement hifiguy... AOR Oct 2015 #52
Wrong question. How much does it take to live on? That's the right question. Cheese Sandwich Oct 2015 #5
$12 by 2020? Armstead Oct 2015 #6
Wow, and you wonder why people like Sanders. F4lconF16 Oct 2015 #8
I don't wonder that at all. But this article is from a liberal economist who has done research DanTex Oct 2015 #11
it should be high enough restorefreedom Oct 2015 #22
This article is as far from a right-wing talking point as you can get. DanTex Oct 2015 #23
I said I don't care who wrote the article restorefreedom Oct 2015 #24
OK, so we agree that 100 is too high, that's a start. DanTex Oct 2015 #33
the gop is great at this restorefreedom Oct 2015 #44
Seattle has their own minimum wage as does just about every major city yeoman6987 Oct 2015 #34
The cost of living.... BooScout Oct 2015 #10
You do that by having those localities pass higher minimum wages. jeff47 Oct 2015 #41
You are repeating a GOP position AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #14
The exact opposite. The article is from a liberal economist who has done research DanTex Oct 2015 #15
GOP is against raising the minimum wage to $15 AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #17
The GOP is against raising it to $12 also. Much of the GOP actually DanTex Oct 2015 #18
Congratulations AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #20
i believe the term they float restorefreedom Oct 2015 #26
Minimum Wage Would Be $21.72 If It Kept Pace With Increases In Productivity: Study AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #46
Thanks for finding that. BernieFan57 Oct 2015 #48
No it is not. kenfrequed Oct 2015 #27
I think it's more complicated than "X per hour, period." LettuceSea Oct 2015 #19
Good catch. Not enough people are talking about how to crack down on the poor. DisgustipatedinCA Oct 2015 #21
This reeks of desperation kenfrequed Oct 2015 #25
That's his point. The effects of a $12 minimum wage have been studied, both in the DanTex Oct 2015 #31
It is bloviating nonsense kenfrequed Oct 2015 #35
Again, that's his point. We don't have research on what the effects would be of DanTex Oct 2015 #36
It is absurd kenfrequed Oct 2015 #37
Looks like you have a different opinion from a highly respected liberal economist DanTex Oct 2015 #39
That's a lie AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #47
Oh look. Our friendly neighborhood DanTex, scaremongering about paying poor people too much Scootaloo Oct 2015 #28
Well, Hillary did insinuate poor students are poor because they are lazy AgingAmerican Oct 2015 #42
Let them eat cake, eh Dan? beam me up scottie Oct 2015 #29
Yep. The biggest problem we face is that poor working people hifiguy Oct 2015 #40
I keep on wishing someone would propose a maximum wage. SheilaT Oct 2015 #45
we had an effective maximum wage in the 50s when Warren Stupidity Oct 2015 #50
Yes. And we had the greatest economic growth SheilaT Oct 2015 #53
 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
1. Advertisement on the bottom of my page:
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:00 PM
Oct 2015

"Stand with Elizabeth Warren calling for $12/hr minimum wage!".

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
3. Here's an idea...
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:03 PM
Oct 2015

How about we raise it and keep raising it until we catch up with the rest of the world and then go a step further and destroy poverty once and for all. That includes broad sweeping changes including limits on the amount of money CEOs and other executives can make in comparison to their lowest paid employees.

This has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
32. Ok. Think about it. We make 35 dollars the minimum wage
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:52 PM
Oct 2015

Guess what? The workers making 35 dollars are still the poor in the country as they will still be at the bottom of the scale. We will always have a poor.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
4. Without labor no "wealth" would exist...
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:10 PM
Oct 2015

labor is entitled to ALL it creates. You, Hillary Clinton, and the New York Times are spewing right-wing ruling class talking points.

Solidarity Forever

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run,
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun;
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one,

But the union makes us strong.

Solidarity forever,
Solidarity forever,
Solidarity forever,

For the union makes us strong.

Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight?

For the union makes us strong.

It is we who plowed the prairies; built the cities where they trade;
Dug the mines and built the workshops, endless miles of railroad laid;
Now we stand outcast and starving midst the wonders we have made;

But the union makes us strong.

All the world that's owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone.
We have laid the wide foundations; built it skyward stone by stone.
It is ours, not to slave in, but to master and to own.

While the union makes us strong.

They have taken untold millions that they never toiled to earn,
But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel can turn.
We can break their haughty power, gain our freedom when we learn

That the union makes us strong.

In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold,
Greater than the might of armies, magnified a thousand-fold.
We can bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old
For the union makes us strong.

Ralph Chaplin

 

AOR

(692 posts)
12. Taft-Hartley was a stake through the heart of labor...
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:57 PM
Oct 2015

and the beginning of the sell-out to capital. Still we fight on. We need more modern day Joe Hills and Bill Fosters and less Bob Kings and Richard Trumkas.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
13. Solidarity F4lconF16...
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:00 PM
Oct 2015

the fight back is always just beginning for leftists and labor. We'll get there.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
38. Here's what one famous and noted commie said:
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:07 PM
Oct 2015

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

- Abraham Lincoln

 

AOR

(692 posts)
52. So simple a statement hifiguy...
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 07:09 PM
Oct 2015

and yet it can't be repeated enough. I have a habit of injecting that one into many conversations with lifetime social scabs and business owners. They really have no answers... and it terrifies them because Lincoln was a capitalist for all intents and purposes. Cheers

 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
5. Wrong question. How much does it take to live on? That's the right question.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:14 PM
Oct 2015

That's what it means to put people first.

It's completely unacceptable we've got millions of people working for less than they can afford to live on.

Whether you're a brain surgeon or a floor scrubber every person deserves a chance to have a family and live a decent life. It's a matter of basic human dignity. No more starvation wages.

If a business can't afford to pay enough for workers to live on, then we need to ask some hard questions about why. Why do we have that sort of exploitation built into our economy and how do we change it.

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
6. $12 by 2020?
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:14 PM
Oct 2015

What kind of damage will be inflicted on working families between now and then, when they reach that lordly level?

F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
8. Wow, and you wonder why people like Sanders.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:44 PM
Oct 2015

Fuck this shit. $12 is a survivable wage. If that, in most places. As someone who makes that much in Seattle and still ended up almost homeless, I can tell you that article is pure bull.

It's called a living wage for a reason.

Fucking right-wing talking points on DU, what fun.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
11. I don't wonder that at all. But this article is from a liberal economist who has done research
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:52 PM
Oct 2015

on the minimum wage. In fact, he explicitly rebuts right-wing talking points about how raising the minimum wage would automatically result in more unemployment. The question is how high should it be.

As far as Seattle goes, the article clearly says that more expensive states and municipalities should impose their own higher minimum wages.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
22. it should be high enough
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:26 PM
Oct 2015

that people should not have to bust ass 40-80 hours a week and still live in poverty, have to get foodaid, and live in squalor.

12 aint gonna cut it. not sure 15 will either but it might be livable.

please, dan, you are The first in the pool to criticize the use of right wing talking points. I don't care who wrote this article. The idea of a minimum wage being "too high" is a classic right wing talking point. In fact they don't even want any minimum wage. So maybe we can all try and stick to real progressive ideals

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
23. This article is as far from a right-wing talking point as you can get.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:30 PM
Oct 2015

It's written by a liberal economist, who supports raising the minimum wage, and challenges the right-wing orthodoxy that raising it will cause unemployment.

Could the minimum wage be too high? Of course. I think we can all agree that $7.25 is too low, and, say, $100 is too high. The question is what the right level is, and how much the right level depends on which city or state a person lives in.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
24. I said I don't care who wrote the article
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:38 PM
Oct 2015

this idea of a minimum wage being "too high" is a classic right wing talking point to keep people at starvation wages. It shouldn't be that tough to calculate. Most cost of living factors can be calculated and anticipated. The minimum wage should provide for a standard of living that is appropriate for the most advanced first world country in the world and the one that has the most wealth. I don't know if that's 15 or not, but I can't imagine in 1 million years that it's 12. And as far as the bunk about it costing jobs, more right wing bile.

edit. I agree with you that 100 is clearly too high, but quibbling about whether 12 or 15 is appropriate in a country where people are working full time and still struggling to pay their heating bills or buy groceries or pay for doctor visits is insane in my opinion

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
33. OK, so we agree that 100 is too high, that's a start.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:55 PM
Oct 2015

It's strange that in the same post that you admit that, you also say that "this idea of a minimum wage being "too high" is a classic right wing talking point." Are you accusing yourself of repeating right-wing talking points?

Off the top of my head, I have no idea what the best minimum wage level is. It could be 12, it could be 15, it could be 20. This is why I think it's a good idea to consult economic research, to determine how high it can be raised without risking higher unemployment. Which is what this article does.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
44. the gop is great at this
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:30 PM
Oct 2015

they want us to fight among ourselves about the particulars while they continue to push the ridiculous idea that having any minimum at all hurts the economy. I think it would be a good idea to do more research on what the upper end of the minimum should be. But as long as people who work full-time are struggling in poverty and can't make their bills or have to live in rundown shitty apartments, or have to choose between medication and heat, I think it's safe to say we are not close to being there yet. The Republicans approach to this is "how much do we want to pay" which of course is minimal because they want to keep as many profits as they can. Well I think most Progressives take the approach of "How much do people need to live comfortably" and not be in squalor.

I just think that we as a country can be better then "how much can people get by on" when there is so much obscene wealth supporting such a small number of people's opulent lifestyles.

BooScout

(10,406 posts)
10. The cost of living....
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 12:45 PM
Oct 2015

Is a lot cheaper in Arkansas or Mississippi than it is in New York or California. I think the minimum wage needs to take local cost of living into account.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
41. You do that by having those localities pass higher minimum wages.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:12 PM
Oct 2015

You don't need the federal law to take those places into account.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
15. The exact opposite. The article is from a liberal economist who has done research
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:12 PM
Oct 2015

on the minimum wage and found that increasing it does not automatically reduce employment, the way the GOP claims. You should read it, it's a good piece.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
18. The GOP is against raising it to $12 also. Much of the GOP actually
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:19 PM
Oct 2015

wants to get rid of the minimum wage. Pretending that a $12 minimum wage is "GOP policy" is just silly.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
26. i believe the term they float
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:41 PM
Oct 2015

is "maximum wage." their foray into the bizarro world posits that having a minimum wage somehow prevents people from achieving greater wages, that it's some kind of artificial cap On wages. I don't know how they can say the stuff with a straight face I truly don't.

 

BernieFan57

(80 posts)
48. Thanks for finding that.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 05:01 PM
Oct 2015

I was looking for something like it, I know I've seen it before.

Also not considered, I think, is that 30 years ago a minimum wage job would more likely have benefits. We have seen stagnation of hourly wages coupled with diminishing benefits, which are counted separately.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
27. No it is not.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:42 PM
Oct 2015

It is from an editorialist that is trying to prop up his "$15 and hour is too much" nonsense based on an article that says NOTHING about a raise of $15 an hour either positive or negative.

Skip the article and read the study.

LettuceSea

(337 posts)
19. I think it's more complicated than "X per hour, period."
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:19 PM
Oct 2015

Both D and R have taken pretty black and white stances on an issue that needs some details, IMO.

The national min wage should be increased ($10-12), but more importantly, more benefits should be extended to full time min wage workers. I'm for $15, even up to $20 in cities and states that have higher expenses. But I'm not for giving a 15 year old kid in Mississippi $15 an hour for their first job. That's an economy wrecker and a bit idealistic.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
21. Good catch. Not enough people are talking about how to crack down on the poor.
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 01:23 PM
Oct 2015

I think this is an important election issue. If you let this sort of thing go unchecked, you end up with poor people having more self esteem, money, and maybe even leisure time. Someone MUST put a stop to this.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
25. This reeks of desperation
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:40 PM
Oct 2015

I have serious questions about that article in the NYT.

There is NOTHING in CPI's study on this matter that states that an increase to $15 an hour is a bad thing. Absolutely nothing. The framing by Alan Krueger was his own and he had no input into that study at all and is just bloviating about a change that the study does not address at all.

The intellectual dishonesty by referencing the study in his denouncement of a $15 an hour increase is utterly galling.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
31. That's his point. The effects of a $12 minimum wage have been studied, both in the
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:51 PM
Oct 2015

EPI study and also by international studies he cited, and found not to be economically disruptive. But $15 would put us in uncharted territory, which means risking increased unemployment. As he put it:

Although the plight of low-wage workers is a national tragedy, the push for a nationwide $15 minimum wage strikes me as a risk not worth taking, especially because other tools, such as the earned-income tax credit, can be used in combination with a higher minimum wage to improve the livelihoods of low-wage workers.

Economics is all about understanding trade-offs and risks. The trade-off is likely to become more severe, and the risk greater, if the minimum wage is set beyond the range studied in past research.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
35. It is bloviating nonsense
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 02:57 PM
Oct 2015

He has no factual study to back it up. He is resting his "$15 could be too much" on an actual study that necessitates that the minimum wage could and should be raised to at least $12 an hour.

Take away the study (which he really isn't using anyhow) and the whole thing sounds like typical conservative talking points.


And aside from this desperate attempt for the author of this editorial to rub himself against academia, what about the idea of walking into the halls of congress and asking for somewhat more than what you are willing to settle for. Isn't that sort of the very nature of tactical negotiations? Or is that sort of negotiating tactic only to be used by and for the powerful?

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
36. Again, that's his point. We don't have research on what the effects would be of
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:04 PM
Oct 2015

raising it to $15. This is why he concludes that the risk of entering uncharted territory are not worth the potential benefits, particularly when there are other tools he mentions that can be used to further help low-wage workers.

Calling it a right-wing talking point is utterly ludicrous, because he supports raising the minimum wage to $12, which no right-wingers do.

Your point about negotiations is a good one. You're right, this isn't about negotiating with congress, it's strictly about policy. As far as congress goes, I don't think either $12 or $15 will pass, and I'm not convinced that the starting point is going to make much difference.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
37. It is absurd
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:07 PM
Oct 2015

We also don't know what would happen if we gave every child in America an orange.

My point is that this op-ed isn't based on anything. Depriving it of the study that in no way supports his thesis reduces it to just being: "What if increasing the wage to x causes economic damage"

Which is a republican talking point. I am sorry that this is the case but that is all it is.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
39. Looks like you have a different opinion from a highly respected liberal economist
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:09 PM
Oct 2015

who has done research on the effects of minimum wages.

Fair enough.

 

AgingAmerican

(12,958 posts)
42. Well, Hillary did insinuate poor students are poor because they are lazy
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:12 PM
Oct 2015

So he is in line with her right-think.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
40. Yep. The biggest problem we face is that poor working people
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 03:10 PM
Oct 2015

have way too much money and the rich pigs don't have enough.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
50. we had an effective maximum wage in the 50s when
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 06:41 PM
Oct 2015

The top tax rate was 90%. The world didn't end. The rich were still rich. We also had a middle class that was expanding and whose share of the total wealth was increasing rather than decreasing.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
53. Yes. And we had the greatest economic growth
Fri Oct 9, 2015, 07:10 PM
Oct 2015

we've ever had, as everyone here well knows. We should go back to those tax rates.

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