Just going to ignore the 20 militant Sanders and Clinton supporters who are going back and forth

[Quixote1818]

at one another. I think the vast, vast, vast majority of DU support both Sanders and Clinton and like them both. Trying to rip the other candidate apart in ways that are mean spirited isn't doing anyone any favors and won't change the outcome of the Primaries. Good debate about the issues is fine though. As a Sanders supporter I am also realistic about his chances but a lot of us who support Sanders see this as a Marathon and not a sprint. We see Sanders laying the groundwork to educate and excite a young electorate and hope they can make big changes down the road if the US is not ready for FDR style democracy again just yet. But who knows, maybe the country is ready for Sanders once they learn his message.

As someone who supports Sanders more than Clinton I just want to say that one thing that pisses me off are "Gotcha" posts about Clinton's emails etc. and folks literally hoping she will go down. Gentle reminder that if Hillary goes down there is higher risk that we could end up with Bush or Rubio and a really fucked up Supreme Court and who knows how much more shit to deal with. I am not a huge Hillary fan but if this country is not ready for Sanders this time around I prefer Hillary a billion times more than any Republican. I also think Hillary will be tougher and better at using the bully pulpit than Obama was so I am excited to see what kind of president she might make if she wins despite a number of flaws in her voting record and less than impressive resume taking on Wall Street. Paul Krugman who I highly respect seems to think she could be tough on WS which makes me hopeful but not too hopeful.

As for Hillary supporters who see Sanders supporters as tilting at Windmills, this may be true but you gota have dreams and something to aspire to even if it takes a generation to get there. I personally wish Sanders had been calling himself an FDR Democrat rather than a Democratic Socialist but perhaps in order to truly change peoples perceptions of Socialism you have to have the courage to stand behind it and begin to lay the groundwork for a more enlightened nation down the line. Who would have thought this country would go from being so anti-gay marriage 20 years ago to so strongly gay marriage today? Also, fewer and fewer people are following religions as the years pass. Peoples views and values can most certainly change over time and I think this is what Sanders is up to. He is just trying to educate the general public and open their minds to socialism. I suspect he is realistic about how long it will take his message to resonate but that is why he is a true leader. I think he may know he is laying the groundwork for future Democratic candidates or even true Socialist candidates like they have in Europe. For this he will always be a great leader even if he never officially takes the reins as President. He could have been slicker and shied away from being called a Socialist but that would have been disingenuous and that is not what he is about as we all know.

[uhnope]

1. yay. K R

[lovemydog]

2. Thank you.

That's where I'm at as well.

A buddy asked me about what I thought of the debates, this evening while we were watching football. I said I thought Hillary did a tremendous job and demonstrated she'd be a strong, confident President who can kick republican square in the ass or get them toward her side if she needs them on votes. He asked me if my opinion changed about how I may vote, based on the debate. I said yes, I'm leaning more toward Sanders now because he just seems to be the most honest and least compromised of the candidates. I guess that really means a lot to me.

I will watch more debates though, and still have an open mind. Right now I'm delighted that Sanders, Clinton and O'Malley all took part in a meaningful debate that kept the focus on what's best for our country, and didn't engage in mudslinging or attacks against immigrants or non-Christians or women, the way republicans always do. I also thank President Obama and his administration for the growing consensus among democrats (and maybe even some moderate republicans) that we should raise taxes on the rich and not raise them on anyone else. I also credit democratic socialists, occupy wall street, black live matter, and other leftists and activists for helping bring these urgent matters to the forefront.

[billhicks76]

28. Facts Don't Matter?

I guess some people only care if a D is next to someone's name. The same fools thought Joe Leiberman was ok. The situation in America has become grotesque. Pretending it hasn't is getting in the way of reform. Hillary takes money from the private prison industry. Most sane people know the people who belong in jail are those involved with that industry. This is not hyperbole. This is reality.

[lovemydog]

34. Yes they do, and those are some of the reasons

I'm leaning toward Sanders.

[Tarc]

35. That's fine to lean towards and vote however you like in the primaries

But the message here is to please support whichever candidate wins the primary when the general election comes around.

I was quite in the P.U.M.A. camp in 2008, but when Hillary said "are you in it for me or for what we all stand for?", I came to my senses.

[lovemydog]

37. Yes I agree with you there, Jim Morrison

er, uh, Tarc. I never liked those damn pumas but I've let it go. Hillary was right about that. Have a good day!

[billhicks76]

38. Joe Lieberman

If you want unquestioned support for anyone then perhaps it's your duty to eradicate anyone who is an impostor first. Joe was an infiltrator since his days at Yale. He was there to have an alternative to the republican that served the same masters and was corporate approved. Hillary is the exact same thing. Clean your own house before making demands. Hillary should be asked to drop out like Edwards had to. Edwards was a way better Democrat too. What's next? A Bush running as a Democrat? You would support them? Hillary served Bush Sr well and besides culture war issues used to divide us has voted with Bush continually.

[Tarc]

41. If this was an exercise in non sequiturs

Gold star for you, bro.

[billhicks76]

42. Ok Bro

You know our party is in trouble when the best argument to vote for the previous front runner is through blackmail. Vote for the Iraq War supporter, NSA supporting crimes, private prison financed Goldman Sachs cheerleading Monsanto lawyer OR ELSE....pathetic. One good thing Hillarys emails showed is that liberal Tony Blair had been lying about the Iraq War the entire time. And yet Hillary didn't disclose that. Blair told Bush that as a liberal he could sell the war to the people...a year before the vote. WOW. Hillary did the same thing to the gullible idiots in our party who took her word she must've known something we didn't. Yeah. She knew how to get Lockheeds money. People ask how can you fault her and not just Bush? That should answer itself...ever heard of Vichy France? She sold the war and a million people are dead.

[Tarc]

44. I was oopposed to the Iraq invasion as well

But I'm not a single-issue person. Again, the primaries are wide open, but I hope that we all can come together around whoever the nominee is. There is no viable canddiate on the GOP side, and even if there were, this wouldn't be the forum to vet them in.

I support Clinton now, but will vote for Bernie in the Fall if he is the Democratic candidate.

[artislife]

59. If it were only one issue....nt

[stevenleser]

43. A ranting Gish gallop of non-sequiturs at that.

Another candidate for my ignore list.

[billhicks76]

45. Who Cares...Not Me.

[stevenleser]

46. Sorry ignored(s), I can't read what you wrote

I see that this jumped to the top of my My Posts, but I can't read your response.

[JRLeft]

47. We have plenty of Republicans in the party, but it's OK because they have a D next to their

This is precisely why Wall Street continues to win. Believe the will continue until they destroy this county. Their goal is to loot this country for every penny until there is nothing left. Wall Street has no sense of pride and does not give a damn about borders. As long as voters continue to ignore or stay ignorant of this nothing will change. We're likely fucked.

[billhicks76]

49. Too Many Simple Minds

They think it's unlikely that Wall St would use its billions to put republican minded people in the Democratic Party? Wow. Talk about naive.

[UCmeNdc]

3. Agree!

[joshcryer]

4. Haven't used ignore for over a decade.

Until recently. And yes militant hateful people on both sides are on ignore.

[billhicks76]

39. Yawn

This isn't tiddly winks. If you don't have the chops maybe politics isn't for you. It's not about manners. It's about what happens to our world. In Hillary World it's prison for everyone, no food on the table and murdering families abroad in endless wars. No wonder the Bush family loves her. Not our fault many in our party haven't paid attention and due time to Hillary's connections to and fondness for the Bushes.

[joshcryer]

40. Pitiful hyperbole.

I wish I was special enough to believe a Clinton presidency would be worse than Bush's 8 years of shit. Then my entire thought processes could consist of nothing but sad sound bytes that have no place in reality!

[yardwork]

52. This is an awesome post.

In three sentences - actually two sentences and a subject line - you sum up the entire issue. I think what you wrote a couple times a day while reading DU. Thanks for saying it.

The rest of the time I interact with people in the real world who have only the vaguest idea what is going on but they think that Trunp is kind of a cool dude.

[joshcryer]

54. Bush has somehow made us forget his tenure.

And made us, somehow, think a Democrat is as bad as a Republican. It's crazy!

[yardwork]

55. Well, not all of us. Just some.

They might not be Democrats anyway.

Among the clueless people I encounter on a daily basis, some are lost in left wing la la land. They think North Korea is a great place.

[billhicks76]

64. Please Read This. I'm A Faithful Democrat But This Is Happening Again

“Capital must protect itself in every possible way, both by combination and legislation. Debts must be collected, mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible.

“When, through process of law, the common people lose their homes, they will become more docile and more easily governed through the strong arm of the government applied by a central power of wealth under leading financiers.

“These truths are well known among our principal men, who are now engaged in forming an imperialism to govern the world. By dividing the voter through the political party system, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting for questions of no importance.

“It is thus, by discrete action, we can secure for ourselves that which has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished.”

Montagu Norman, Governor of The Bank Of England, addressing the United States Bankers’ Association, NYC 1924

[billhicks76]

62. Your Naivite Is Astounding

Yes Bush is the most vile. But make no mistake the Clintons SERVE that family. They are collaborators just like French elites in Vichy France. Just because some corporatist puts a D in from of their name then everything is peachy? What's wrong with you? You're the future of our party? I hope not.

[joshcryer]

66. Bush was bad but...

...is the end of the conversation. It's pitiful.

[billhicks76]

61. You're Dead Wrong

I'll fight tooth and nail to support my evaluation. A vote for Hillary is a vote for Bush minus the cosmetic differences that make you feel better being on a different team. You're extremely gullible in my opinion. Bush had the exact same policies on the drug war, wars abroad, prisons, NSA, Wall St etc and when there were stated differences it was just words...lip service for the gullible. Bush isn't Ted Cruz. But his policies are horrific and Clinton supported them. And her husband helped bury IranContra for Bush Sr. People like you said let's just move forward but it paved the way for that entire administration to return in 2000. This is not hyperbole. This is reality. Sorry it doesn't mesh with your comfortable, predetermined belief system. Those two families need to be eradicated from politics and I'm not going to let the specter of a Ted Cruz or Donald Trumy bogeyman scare me away from trying to get real change. Bernie is the only credible candidate.

[Codeine]

58. Wow. That's some crazy-ass vitriol, dude.

Dial it down a notch there, tiger.

[billhicks76]

63. Lol...Can't Help It

I've worked with these people. I know what they are capable of. I'm not a Hillary hater. I just refuse to accept anyone that intimate with the Bush Family which is essentially a crime syndicate. People get lost in the Us vs Them mentality that has been designed to divide us. I am very far left. I don't expect everyone to be. That's ok. But collaborators are no different than snitches. They deserve whatever bad befalls them. You won't find me rationalizing away a vote for the most evil war in American history. People need to examine with a fine tooth comb the ties between the Bushes and Clinton's before they spout off about harmful hyperbole. There is a reason for the hyperbole.

[zappaman]

5. Gonna have to rec this!

[liberal_at_heart]

6. I will not vote for Hillary in the primary or the general, but I do not see the point of

getting mixed up in the name calling. I have put lots of people on ignore and I have to say DU is a much more pleasant place to be now that I have learned to use the ignore button.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

10. I would miss the comedy.

[liberal_at_heart]

13. They can be funny, but I allow myself to get way more angry than I should and then I just end

up getting in the middle of it and fighting too and really there just isn't any point.

[lovemydog]

36. Serenity now!

Yeah, I hear you. Sometimes I see the humor later. As in 'we're silly creatures getting angry at each other like baboons in the jungle.'

The old 'leave the post hanging' trick can be useful. A day or two later you may agree with some of the post or not take it personally. I've found this works about half the time. If it still upsets you, reply in an attempt to persuade others who may be reading.

Alternatively, the tried and true 'You suck, let's burn bridges' type of style is often used to ill, comical and self-defeating effect.

[senz]

29. Someone alerted on this comment. Amazingly.

On Mon Oct 19, 2015, 03:06 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I will not vote for Hillary in the primary or the general, but I do not see the point of
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=700162

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Openly saying he will not vote for Hillary in GE is against DU's TOS.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Oct 19, 2015, 03:17 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Fail alert! Thanks for wasting my time.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's merely a sentiment/opinion politely expressed. There is no attack, no abuse, nothing hurtful. This is still primary season, it's not the GE.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I cannot believe someone alerted on this. LEAVE IT.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sorry alerter, there is nothing in the TOS that says that.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is not against the TOS, assuming Hillary doesn't win the primaries. The post is not clear in that regard: Does the person intend to vote against her in the event that she wins OR does he\she simply expect her to lose, in case of which they will vote for the democratic nominee, which will not be Hillary. Benefit of doubt.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[yardwork]

53. Actually, advocating against the Democratic nominee is against TOS.

I wouldn't have bothered to hide that childish and feckless post, but I can understand why it was alerted on.

[Fawke Em]

56. But, since we don't have one, yet, isn't the point moot?

[TheKentuckian]

57. Stating ones own position is not advocacy

[NBachers]

7. Don't make Democratic Underground look like this.

Also- Don't be the person who gets cranked up at the office holiday party and starts ripping into people, then has to show up next week and try to work with them.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

8. There is far too much FEAR of the Right Wing....

They have been marginalized much more by society at large than some Democrats are willing to admit.

What's much MORE important is getting the vast majority out there that has never voted to actually vote.

[liberal_at_heart]

11. I agree. They have not stopped the vast majority of people from accepting the LGBT community and

almost all the anti-abortion laws they pass get shot down in court as unconstitutional. The much bigger problem is the fact that politicians represent big money and not the people.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

16. I say we remind these people that Republicans lied us into a war and STILL refuse to admit it.

[liberal_at_heart]

19. That and if we have the money to pay for all the military action

Hillary supports then we have the money to pay for the programs Bernie is proposing.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. I'm old enough to remember when world domination was expected from a Bond villain.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. BOTH parties have bought into the lie that Wall Street drives the economy....

The reality is Wall Street FOLLOWS the economy.

After 1929 it became conventional wisdom that the Stock Market needs to kept fat and happy for the sake of the little guy. It's the original "trickle down" theory.

[liberal_at_heart]

25. That was one of the things that always frustrated me about Obama. Every time he would

threaten regulation for Wall Street, the stock market would tank and Obama would back off. The average American has less than $100,000 in a 401(k) retirement account while at the same time seeing their pensions disappear. We need leadership that is not afraid to stand up to Wall Street even if it means the stock market takes a temporary dive.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. One of the things you can count on is greedy people will not let the market stay down....

They'll watch the cowards sell and then snap up the bargains.

[Skittles]

9. so, SO sick of the swooners

THEY SUCK NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE SWOONING FOR

[ConservativeDemocrat]

12. Sounds good to me

Really, it's the people who spend nearly all their time on the DU bashing Democrats, that are the problem.

But it's more than 20. Many of these screeds attacking not just Hillary, but Obama, evincing a pure unadulterated hatred bordering on that that you see from teabaggers, have 100 upvotes. Many of them have stated in absolute terms that they're not going to support the Democratic nominee if it's Hillary.

Not true of any Hillary supporter I've seen yet. We all say that if Sanders wins the candidacy, we will support him. And that goes for me, who have more than the average DUer's disagreement with him.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[SunSeeker]

18. Well said. I totally agree. Thank you. nt

[Tipperary]

14. This was a good post to read. I have been really taken aback by the hostility displayed

here by both sides. I have seen Hillary and Bernie supporters acting childishly and just plain nasty. It does seem to be the same people that post the hateful posts on a regular basis. I can not imagine that they really think they are doing their candidates any good at all.

[McCamy Taylor]

15. I have never used ignore. Afraid if I did now, GD: Primaries would disappear.

[Suich]

22. I put the whole forum on ignore.

I check it a couple of times a day but at least the posts don't show up in Latest Threads.

I'm a lot happier!

[Fumesucker]

26. If you had used ignore on me you would have one less hide right now..

[bongo_x]

17. Yes

All this weirdness has almost made me stop coming to this site. It doesn’t make me angry, it’s just weird. Part of me thinks there’s just a bunch of nut cases, but part of me suspects there’s just a bunch of hired troublemakers. I have to say that I’m not one of those people who makes these things personal, I’ve never noticed who wrote what and couldn’t name a single user name on this site, so I don’t have anything specific to say about anyone. It just seems like there’s a lot of crazy ranting here lately.

[McCamy Taylor]

23. I'm in the process of "ignoring" everyone who says they won't vote for the Democratic nominee next

fall if it isn't the candidate of their choice---because they are not Yellow Dogs. And also everyone who keeps harping in the Emails like they matter. And everyone who is going after Bernie on guns.

Once I ignore all three of these, I am betting this will seem like a much more civilized message board.

[CoffeeCat]

24. This is a political message board, after all--people need to deal with that...

When it comes to politics--people feel strongly. And sometimes discussions get heated.

This just goes with the territory. This is exactly what we saw last time around when it was Clinton v Obama.

People have different personalities, ways of expressing themselves. And...this is a political message board!

If anyone gets that upset or offended by any messages on a political message board, I think that they need to take
some time off from the Internet.

Let's not get the vapors when people disagree, speak out against another Dem candidate or exhibit some fiery passion.

It's all part of the primaries.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

27. I totally appreciate your thoughts and agree completely.

I tried reaching inside both camps and wound up blocked. I went barging in asking questions. You expressed the most basic and vital concerns of this election. I leaped to "demand mode" in part because there is such a sense of ire directed from one to the other. It felt like being hit in the crossfire.

Thank you Quixote. Keep tilting at those windmills.

[BlueCheese]

30. If you believe what people say here...

whoever is running against someone's favorite candidate must be the worst person in the world. Not just a fellow Democrat with slightly different views, but the absolute epitome of evil, corruption, or greed. That person's supporters must be closet racists, sexists, or maybe just brain damaged.

It's the kind of thinking I'm appalled to read. I wonder if we're just as bad as the Republican voters in our capacity for hate, demonization, and absolutism.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. When all a person has is a hammer...

As someone who supports Sanders more than Clinton I just want to say that one thing that pisses me off are "Gotcha" posts about Clinton's emails etc. and folks literally hoping she will go down

When all a person has is a hammer the whole world looks like a nail.

[leftyladyfrommo]

33. I agree, too.

I like them both and I don't like the sniping.

[Nye Bevan]

48. I support Hillary but Sanders is a good man with good policies,

and if he gets the nomination I won't hesitate even for a millisecond to vote for him.

Like you I shake my head at the militant bickering by some.

[anamnua]

50. Man, if you think this is bad go into the archives

and check out the glory days of the Obamabot/Hillbot spat in '08.

[yardwork]

51. Good post.

[LanternWaste]

60. I think it was Gandhi who said, “I like your candidates, I do not like your candidates supporters...

I think it was Gandhi who said, “I like your presidential candidates, I do not like your candidates supporters. The supporters are so unlike your candidate."

[Blue_In_AK]

65. This is a very good post.

I would like to put certain folks here on ignore, but I'm kind of drawn to them just for the amusement factor. I just have to keep telling myself not to engage because it will make absolutely no difference and just piss me off.

I do like your attitude. It would be nice if everyone could approach this election with such equanimity.