Democrats’ destructive Bernie Sanders myth: Stop saying he can’t win!

[pinebox]

Amen to this article!
We've seen this play out here on DU saying that Bernie can't win but in reality, he can and he's matching up BETTER in a general against GOP opponents than Hillary is.

Democrats’ destructive Bernie Sanders myth: Stop saying he can’t win!--Polls show Dems don't think Sanders can win the nomination -- or the general. That's a mistake
http://www.salon.com/2015/10/21/democrats_destructive_bernie_sanders_myth_stop_saying_he_cant_win/

If Sanders doesn’t win the Democratic nomination, it will be because Democratic voters decided he couldn’t. Clinton is only inevitable if Democrats believe she is. No matter what the talking heads say, in the end it’s the votes – and the voters – that matter.

It will be interesting to see how many Democrats vote for Clinton only because they don’t think Sanders can win. As Cilliza notes, it’s clear that many Democrats like Sanders and would be happy if he won; they simply don’t believe he can. That belief may be enough to gift Clinton the Democratic nomination.

Clinton will probably make a stronger general election candidate than many believe, especially in light of her competition. However, a Sanders general election campaign would be a fascinating test of the proposition that Democrats would do much better if they owned their progressivism, something Clinton is unlikely to do.

I’ve long believed that Democrats have a branding problem, not an issue problem. On practically every issue that really matters to the middle class – from income inequality to health care to student debt to wage increases to campaign finance – the Democrats are on the right side. Republicans are more skilled at politics and rhetorical diversions, and so they manage to obscure the differences between the parties. Sanders, however, cuts through that like no other candidate I’ve seen in recent years, including Clinton and Obama and every other prominent Democrat.

[Fawke Em]

1. I live in a red state, therefore, I know many, many Republicans.

Many have told me they like and respect Bernie - some have said they'd vote for him since their own party is giving them a bunch of yahoos or said they might sit this one out (dependent upon who their nominee is, of course).

But, those same people said they'd crawl over glass, naked, to vote against Clinton.



It's something to consider.

[R. P. McMurphy]

15. I live in the reddest part of East Tennessee

and I hear the very same thing.

I don't believe Hillary can win Tennessee. Bernie may.

[oberliner]

27. We are not going to carry Tennessee and we don't need to

The red states will go red and the blue states will go blue.

It's all about wining Ohio and Florida.

[R. P. McMurphy]

31. I wish you luck with that strategy. eom

[oberliner]

34. If Bernie carries Tennessee we will win in an unprecedented landslide

I think Bernie would very easily win without those red states.

If he keeps the blue states blue and carries Florida (which I very much think he would) and Ohio (also a distinct possibility) then we are all good.

[R. P. McMurphy]

59. Sorry. I didn't grasp the point you were making.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[RoccoR5955]

44. Even here in "Liberal" New York State

Not NY City, but upstate, people are much more conservative. Many who live near Vermont are familiar with Bernie. They are also familiar with Clinton, as she was the US Senator.
The conservatives that I talk to, ALL would rather vote for Sanders than they would Clinton. They tell me that his honesty, and his actually doing things on issues that resonate with WE THE PEOPLE, are the reason why. He not only talks the talk, but he walks the walk. He answers questions with straight answers, and he has held the same views for a long time. This cannot be said of Clinton. Even though these folks tell me that they disagree with many of Bernie's policies they would rather vote for him than Clinton, for reasons mentioned above.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

61. My supervisor (RW ass) says

If he can get by Hillary he will vote for Sanders.

[madwivoter]

65. I'm in Wisconsin

Madison... Looking at the landscape here compared to 2008 it's quite different.

I haven't seen one Hillary bumper sticker or yard sign (I have seen some of her old bumper stickers).

I haven't seen one rethuglican sticker (not even any for Walker's sorry-ass campaign, and thank dog that wanker is out).

I HAVE seen (oops, sorry, my caps lock button was broken for a second) tons of Bernie stickers and yard signs all over town (this includes Middleton which is a very conservative suburb), Sun Prairie and most other surrounding areas.

Looking back at the landscape in 2008, Hillary swag had quite a presence in the yards and on the cars (as did Obama). The McPain machine had the obnoxious signs in the middle of the farms I pass on my way to work.

My right-leaning friends are talking about Bernie and what he might do, and my left leaning friends are Bonkers For Bernie (just like me!).

[djean111]

2. He will have my vote and my support.

It is fun to talk him up to people, and to point out why I believe he is the best candidate. My grandson (20) is always talking Bernie up to people, too. No one has ever said no, I don't like him. Ever.

[coyote]

60. Exactly.

Hillary is a divisive figure. Bernie is a uniter and can draw votes both sides of the electorate.

[brooklynite]

3. UNREC

The article claims that "Sanders can't win" is a myth and then goes on to say Sanders would have a hard time winning and Clinton would be a stronger candidate.

[moabfan]

5. Okay. You believe on that myth, go ahead.

You just think that the 18 million voters will repeat their 2008 votes for Clinton. That's fine, except it's not going to be enough for her nomination.

[Armstead]

25. Unrec your unrec...You're jumbling up what it says

The article is dealing with nuance and areas that the author acknowledges are unknown. He's not saying eithr candidate has a better chance...He raised a lot of "ifs" but also said those "ifs" are the question.



"It would be extraordinarily difficult for Sanders to win the presidency – there’s no way to avoid that conclusion. But it’s not as preposterous as many assume. There’s no way to know how the rest of the country would respond to Sanders’ message, but, according to the latest Real Clear Politics poll averages, Sanders performs about the same (or even better) against Republican candidates like Trump and Bush than Clinton does..."

[thesquanderer]

39. Saying HRC is stronger doesn't mean BS can't win

nor does "hard time" mean "can't."

Personally, based on both polling and some logical reasons I've detailed elsewhere, I think BS would actually probably be stronger in the general than HRC (depending somewhat on who the Republicans put up, and who the running mates are)... but I think it will be very hard for him to win the nomination. If he wins the nomination, I think he'll win the general, but I don't expect him to win the nomination.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

53. Why did you even answer? ....

Every one knows your stance.
One percent for all...

Join the common man. Learn what it's like to stretch a meal three times.
Learn what it takes to figure out, power, lights or food.
Com'on join us! Or are you too afraid?

[brooklynite]

85. You missed the times when I said I had no issues with Bernie's policies?

My sole issue is that MY analysis says he can't win the General Election. Nobody (including the writer of this article) has given me a convincing alternative scenario.

[dreamnightwind]

97. Not only can Bernie win the GE,

Bernie being our nominee will redeem the Democratic Party in the eyes of millions who have given up on it as any kind of ally. They're all crooks, both parties are the same, talk to any of them and that's what you will hear.

Bernie changes that, and is the ticket to reclaiming our party's rightful position as the representives of the working class, and the previously taken-for-granted Democratic dominance of congress (which we held for a long time, until we allowed corporatists to take over our party, losing the loyalty of the working class).

The Sanders and Warren wing of the party is the very soul and legitimacy of the party, all else is marketing by corporatists.

[Art_from_Ark]

105. Well stated

[Dustlawyer]

102. Who ever wins the Democratic Primary will win the General.

They have nothing but their limited core group of rabid supporters. Once the one-on-one debates start, its all over.

I don't want to live under corporate rule anymore! They corrupted the system with campaign cash and now run the country. Bernie has vowed, with our help, to put an end to this!

[Art_from_Ark]

109. I wouldn't be so sure of that

I've been following the Republican Party since the Nixon era. One thing I've learned about them is they use the sleaziest, slimiest, most underhanded tactics to try to win at all costs. Witness Nixon and his secret negotiations with the Vietnamese before the 1968 elections, and his Watergate break-in and Southern strategy in 1972; Reagan and his secret negotiations with the Iranians to undermine Carter in 1980; and of course, George Bush's election that was stolen in broad daylight, with nary a consequence.

So I must ask myself, why would the Republicans be pulling this Benghazi shit now, especially after the revelations of Kevin McCarthy? And why would they agree to have Trey Gowdy, the equivalent of a 4th string quarterback, in charge of this witch hunt?

And this only explanation I can find is, they want Hillary to be the nominee.

"What?" you might say. "They hate Hillary!"

But it's only the Republican voters and the Rush Limbaughs who hate Hillary. The guys at the very top don't hate her. The Bush family have accepted her as a "sister/daughter-in-law", her mentor at State was Henry Kissinger, and she hangs around with rich Republicans. Her views on the military and the economy more closely resemble those of Republicans than those of Sanders Democrats.

Bernie, on the other hand, represents a serious challenge to their power. And he has more potential to draw away moderate Republican voters than Hillary has. So with Hillary as the nominee, there wouldn't be much change in the status quo, as far as they're concerned. But since Hillary would be a weaker candidate than Bernie because she has no well-developed political philosophy, even after 50 years of being involved in politics, and she doesn't inspire voters the way Bernie does, and she has baggage that Bernie doesn't, it would be easier for one of their more "sensible" Klowns to make a strong showing against her- or even defeat her.

[moabfan]

118. Bernie's got strong social media and Internet presence

It isn't the same as 40 years ago.

People keep forgetting that key demographic.

[druidity33]

108. read this on dKos today...

In reference to Hillary winning the nom and another poster's supposition of Bernie's prospects in the General:

"He's looking at the fact that all Repubs hate her; most of the Indies hate her; and even some Dems aren't real crazy about her. So what happens in the general if she's the nom?
All Repubs vote against her; most of the Indies vote against her; and a substantial portion of Dems just stay home.
The reason Sanders polls a bit better in a general is because some Repubs like him; many Indies like him; and all the Dems will vote for him becuz even if they're angry that Hillz didn't get the nom, they can't "justify" sitting it out becuz of "Wall street ties," or "lack of integrity," etc..
These are facts that not only the DNC need to start considering, but facts that we Dems on the ground need to start seriously considering." - hellinahandcart



I would add that Bernie likely brings more first time voters into the mix...

[moabfan]

116. So you stand by Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, the author of the 2014 Democratic losses?

Progressive issues won in 2014, but DLC lost big in 2014. Clinton will repeat 2014 losses and drag down more Democrats down-ticket candidates.

We, the Bernie Sanders Democrats, are working on putting together an excellent lineup of progressives that we can all agree with to go with the true progressive in the race: Bernie Sanders. Win-win.

If you really think about it right now, the Republicans are wasting millions if it's Bernie in the general election because they have nothing on him that hasn't already been tried. In this case, issues trumps over the amount of money raised, defeating the intent and purpose of Citizens United, one of Bernie's many goals.

He has the volunteers working very hard, which includes caucus and primary training. I've attended a few as my state is participating on Super Tuesday, with a later primary for our down-ticket candidates. We are bringing everybody and their mothers. What has the Clinton campaign done to prepare themselves? I follow a lot of Tweets, and don't see much training opportunities for caucusing here in my state from the Clinton end.

There is that gap that Clinton has. I'll leave it up for you to figure it out. Two gaps, in fact.

[treestar]

113. Talk about calling kettle black

so what? Trying to shut up people who don't agree? There's no way to do that.

[TwilightGardener]

4. All it takes is voting.

[haikugal]

6. I'm in it for the long haul...the same as Bernie.

We'll make it, no worries. We just need to keep working.

[JTFrog]

7. "It would be extraordinarily difficult for Sanders to win the presidency – there’s no way to avoid"

From your link:

It would be extraordinarily difficult for Sanders to win the presidency – there’s no way to avoid that conclusion.

Do these very early polls mean Sanders is more likely to win a general election than Clinton? No. But it ought to undercut the narrative that Sanders can’t win a general election.

Does posting this stuff ever make you dizzy?

Just curious.

[Armstead]

28. Nuance and intelligent 3D analysis can make one dizzy

A lot easier when it's simple black-and-white, either/or stuff like "Hillary can't win" or "Bernie can't win." or its monotonous variations.

Basic English lesson. "difficult" is not the same as "can't"

[JTFrog]

29. LOL!

If I was in any other thread I might take your post seriously.

[Armstead]

36. Well I was serious.... in a snarky kind of way

My point, and I am deadly serious about it, is that the whole political "debate" and "dialogue" is often reduced to easy to digest chunks that ignore any context.

"Bernie is a loser who is totally unelectable because he's a cranky far left socialist."

"Bernie will magically convert all the swing voters and moderate Republicans to vote Democratic, and will definitely win."

"Hillary is a magical being whose aura and accomplishments will assure her election."

"Hillary is so corrupt and polarizing that there is no way she can win."

The article cited went beyond the Tiger Beat shallowness. Neither "for" or "against" either candidate. It actually dealt with issues, and unknowns and gambles, and challenged conventional wisdom with questions.

That's not spinning.

[JTFrog]

50. I really like Bernie.

I wasn't at all saying that the article was spinning, just that it didn't support the OP's commentary. I don't think Bernie has a better chance of winning than Hillary, but I would be very happy to have the opportunity to vote for him if he did win the primary.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. A story my parents told me from 1948.

This was before my time. My parents were staunch yellow dog Democrats.
They said they were standing in long lines, saying, "We're voting for Harry Truman. We know he can't win, but we're voting for him anyway!"

[moobu2]

9. Well, Bernie Sanders cant win. You want people to lie and say he can?

There's too much at risk to play games.

[Fawke Em]

10. Sure he can.

You just wish he couldn't.

I actually think he has a better chance in the general than your candidate.

[MissDeeds]

11. +10000 n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

71. I believe Bernie has a better chance also. No one is going to influence my choice by telling me

he can't win. Just makes me more determined to vote for him.

[moabfan]

119. +1

A far better chance in the GE than Clinton.

[MynameisBlarney]

14. Why can't he?

I'd like to hear why you think that.

[jtuck004]

16. When I write his name in, it won't be a fucking game, let me assure you. n/t

[pinebox]

17. Is that why Bernie does better in a general than Hillary?

You say Bernie can't win yet in a general, Bernie does better than Hillary against Republican opponents.
You're repeating the lie that he can't win. When in reality, well, see below.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/19/1434936/-CNN-POLL-Bernie-gains-on-Hillary-runs-better-against-Trump

Clinton: 50
Trump: 45
Sanders: 53
Trump: 44

At this point in the election, Hillary was beating Obama 47-21, keep that in mind.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/democratic_presidential_nomination-191.html

[LovingA2andMI]

19. So we go from FAUX "Solidarity" Yesterday with the Benghazi hearings....

Back to insults on Candidate Bernie Sanders by Hillary Clinton Supporters. Interesting.....

Reason One: Why I refused to Rec one post on the "Solidarity" faux repeated postings today and yesterday....

Reason Two: Why if Bernie Sanders is not the nominee the ballot spot will be skipped -- when it says Presidential Candidate.

Reason Three: If you are down with Bernie, you need and must #StayWithBernie #BernieOrBust #GotBerniesBack!

[RoccoR5955]

42. If there is so much at risk to play games.

Than why do you play them?

[moobu2]

48. The Bernie Sanders supporters are the ones playing the games.

Offering large crowds and manipulated online polls to give the false impression that Bernie's ahead when he isn't and claiming he can win when he can't and accusing Hillary Clinton supporters of playing games when they simply point out the obvious.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

57. Male bovine excrement...

[RoccoR5955]

93. This is simply your personal opinion.

I could say that polls that have Clinton in the lead are manipulated by the mainstream media, couldn't I?

So let's stop with the games. You don't know for sure who's going to win, and neither do I.

So stop with the crap like Clinton is already the candidate, and Bernie cannot win!

[moobu2]

104. It's my opinion that is soundly based upon facts.

The Bernie Sanders campaign bought the top trending topic on Twitter during the last debate and his staff and activists posted all the web addresses of online polls they could find and directed flowers to go vote in them. People can vote 100's of times in most of those polls and that's what they did. Afterwards, Bernie Sanders supporters tried to use those manipulated online polls to claim Bernie had won the debate. lol it's pathetic.

Bernie Sanders can not win the primary much less the election. The only big thing Bernie Sanders could do is throw the election to the Republicans. He's not even a Democrat.

[RoccoR5955]

106. "Facts" as YOU see them

Bernie did not buy a trending topic on twitter. That is simply nonsense. Flowers don't vote, as you stated, even on online polls. People cannot vote 100s of times on those online polls unless they know the tricks of the trade of the Internet. I do computer work for a living, as I have for the past 26 years, and I can tell you from experience that less than .001% of the people know these tricks.

Again, your final statement is your opinion, not based on anything but your bias.

[Armstead]

47. Games?

So anything beyond "fall in line because we have done all your thinking for you" is a game?

Fuck that noise.

[RoccoR5955]

95. That's what it sounds like to me

They are trying to make our decisions for us, by saying that Bernie can't win, Bernie isn't really a Democrat, a "socialist" will never win.

It screams of Big Brother Bullshit to me.

I, for one, will not take it!

[mythology]

12. Sanders can win, but he's unlikely to do so

But the head to head match ups comparison isn't an entirely accurate approach. Sanders isn't really being attacked by Republicans, at least not as compared to Clinton. As such there isn't as much negative out there. That would change with Sanders in the general.

In the 2008 primary Clinton rose in head to head polling as compared to Obama once it was clear Obama had the edge in the primary. Clinton also rose in popularity as Secretary of State (pre-Benghazi) where Obama ' popularity lowered post election.

[treestar]

13. Again we are being ordered

What to say and not say. How authoritArian. It is am opinion.

[pinebox]

20. Sure

Nobody is "ordering" you anything. Who said any such thing. Nice Nazi reference too I might add because that's going to help you prove your point, amiright?

[treestar]

110. BS would lose on McGovern levels

I don't mind the idea of him as POTUS. I could vote for him. But the rest of the voters get to vote too.

[pinebox]

111. Is that why Bernie does better than Hillary in a general against Republicans?

You're obviously failing to understand that in a general, he does better than Hillary against Republicans. It's not hard dude.

[treestar]

112. Not really relevant at this point

If there is any valid data on that.

[pinebox]

115. It's relevant

as much as any data is at this point from polls and there's lots of data out there.

[treestar]

117. I'd have to see those polls

I would think they'd be subject of many OPs on GDP. But then many of the polls touted have been of the online variety.

[Kentonio]

121. Here's a PPP one for you.

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2015/10/hassan-ayotte-still-neck-and-neck-dems-lead-presidential-matches-in-nh.html

"We also tested Bernie Sanders against the trio of Carson, Rubio, and Trump and he actually fares slightly better than she does against that group of candidates. Where Clinton leads them by an average of 6 points, Sanders' average lead is 7 points. Sanders leads Trump 49/40, Carson 47/39, and Rubio 45/41."

[treestar]

122. That's one state

and Hillary is beating the Rs too.

[Kentonio]

125. Yes Hillary is currently leading against the Rs too

Although previously she was behind to Trump in some polls.

As for one state, there have been countless nationwide polls showing the same thing, feel free to actually use google and find them. It's not hard.

[JTFrog]

23. Yep, his ordering folks to listen to Ann Coulter couple days ago certainly opened some eyes. n/t

[Armstead]

18. Here's my take on "electability"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251698645

[SheilaT]

21. I am likewise being driven crazy by that meme.

And I'm hearing it from people who are at best reluctant Hillary supporters.

Plus, I honestly don't think the current polling correctly captures how widely disliked Hillary is in the larger world, especially by those who (as odd as this seems to us) are not yet paying very much attention to next year's Presidential election. People who won't vote in any primary or caucus, but will notice once the nominees are in place. It's my belief that they will turn out in great numbers to vote against Hillary, and I'm not sure she actually can win the general election.

Just my opinion.

[DCBob]

22. He could win but..

he is a bigger risk to lose than Hillary.

[Armstead]

43. All depends on how you look at it

A lot of variables that could make it easier or harder for either candidate, and which are still unknown.

[zalinda]

63. I don't think so

Look at Benghazi. How much did they spend to try to bring Hillary down? You don't think the Koch brothers won't spend as much or more to bring her down? She is well hated by the Republicans.

And, to make matters worse, she has a problem with being straight forward and honest. You don't think all those times she quibbled about her answer won't come back to haunt her, in video, no less?

The Republicans have 20 years of 'dirt' on Hillary and Bill that they are dying to trot out. And, yes they have been collecting all this stuff for 20 years, as every one knew Hillary was going to run for President.

Now, with Bernie, they have to start from scratch. They never imagined that he would run for President. Bernie is going to be much harder to fling 'dirt' at.

If Hillary is the nominee, we lose. It's simple as that.

Z

[WillyT]

24. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[firebrand80]

26. Are people not entitled to their opinion?

If I think Bernie would lose the general, I should keep my mouth shut about it?

[pinebox]

30. Opinion, sure

but saying Bernie can't win and isn't electable when he's doing better against Republican opponents in a general than Hillary? That sounds rather misinformed more than anything else.

[RoccoR5955]

41. Of course it's misinformation.

The DNC wants you to believe that Clinton is the pre-ordained leader. Anything other than their plan, would upset the status quo, and upset the moneyed interests that control BOTH parties!

[LovingA2andMI]

33. Oh, Chafee just dropped out....

&quot CNN)Former Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chafee ended his long-shot bid for the 2016 Democratic presidential nomination, he announced Friday.

"As you know, I have been campaigning on a platform of Prosperity Through Peace," Chafee said at the DNC's annual Women's Leadership Forum in Washington. "But after much thought I have decided to end my campaign for president today. I would like to take this opportunity one last time to advocate for a chance be given to peace."

The Democrat declared his presidential campaign in June, shortly after announcing that he had formed an exploratory committee."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/23/politics/lincoln-chafee-2016-election-dnc-meeting/

[moabfan]

126. Your continued support for Chaffee is greatly appreciated

after he already dropped out.

[Populist_Prole]

32. K&R. The "he can't win" meme is telling

"He can't win". Translation : "Give it up and cast your lot with the status quo".

Signed; corporatist toadies.

[LovingA2andMI]

35. Well, the good thing is....

If Bernie don't win, some Bernie Supporters can tune out of the rest of the D.C. based political "Show", realize America is "Brought and Sold" by the Powers That Be, Vote for Local Candidates deserving of their support and Turn Off All Mainstream Media as why waste another moment of time on dribble.

But, until this point (one I hope will never come) Bernie Supporters must continue to push wide and hard to #HaveBerniesBack!

[Bread and Circus]

37. Nice

[moobu2]

38. Bernie Sanders isnt even a Democrat

He's using the Democratic Party to give his 3rd party candidacy legitimacy it wouldn't have had if he had run as an independent or whatever. Bernie Sanders is running "as a Democrat", Bernie Sanders isn't a Democrat. He can't win either.

[RoccoR5955]

40. Another statement that has to be squashed.

In his home state, they do not register in a party as they do in other stated.
He is not using his third party to give his candidacy legitimacy. He has TRUE Democratic values. The values that many of us grew up with!
He does not have third way, triangulation values of today's so-called Democrats. As a matter of fact, Bernie WAS a Democrat, before Clinton was a Democrat. Bernie left the party when the party left him.
Wasn't Clinton working for the Republicans when she started in politics? Who's to say that she is not still working for them?

I am sick and tired of hearing this, and find it quite offensive.

Buy hey, some of you trolls, gotta troll.

[moobu2]

51. Well, Bernie Sanders himself said he was using the Democratic Party

to run instead of doing it like Ralph Nadar did and losing badly. He said it.

And, I would be offended at being called a troll for telling the truth if I gave a shit what you said at all, which I do not.

[Live and Learn]

69. Well, the Democratic Party is allowing him to run on their ticket, so

I guess they don't 'give a shit' what you say about it.

[moobu2]

76. But they aren't supporting him and they shouldnt

because he isnt a Democrat and and cant win.

[Live and Learn]

77. Don't be ridiculous, They aren't supposed to support anyone in the primary.

It is supposed to up to us, the voters. It is amazing that so many of you are happy to have our candidate (illegally) selected!

[SammyWinstonJack]

81. Honestly..

[RoccoR5955]

130. But they ARE giving tacit support to him

by letting him run as a Democrat. He caucuses with the Democrats. He holds a leadership position in the Senate which has a Democratic majority.

As far as saying he can't win. I guess that when he is the nominee, you will bring up the same meme, and not support him, huh?

[treestar]

114. you don't get to decide that

and claim other Democrats are "illegitimate" Democrats, or whatever you are trying to claim. I may choose to think you are not a Democrat.

[Live and Learn]

68. What the hell difference does that make? He is the moral choice, a candidate

that will help the poor and middle class and attempt to save the environment unlike most of the 'Democrats' running and would do a better job of it than any of them. Does that not count for you?

[pinebox]

83. Who cares if Bernie isn't a democrat?

All that says is that you defend the system and the status quo.
I could give 2 shits what party someone is as long as they're in line with the issues which matter the most. Right now Bernie IS doing just that. You say he can't win yet again, he does better in a general than Hillary against Republican opponents.
That's winning.

[RichVRichV]

84. You realize it benefits the Democratic party also?

By not running an independent campaign it means he's not siphoning votes away from the Democratic nominee in the general.

It also means he's giving the Democratic voters the right to choose or reject him before introducing the rest of the voters.

You can denounce him all you want but he is showing respect for the Democratic party with his campaign.

[LanternWaste]

91. Labels can indeed, be rather important to an undisciplined mind.

Labels can indeed, be rather important to the undisciplined mind which needs the mental convenience of branding, logos, stamps and classifications, lest the world become too confusing.

[MasonDreams]

45. YES WE CAN!!! sound familiar? That's right, Time for a Change!! Feel the Bern?

[DFW]

46. A month and a half ago, I talked to someone close to his campaign

She meets with him about once a week. She said that his thinking was at first about making an impression, but that at this point he really wanted it, no more "make a point and go home." I believe her.

I'm not really bothered one way or the other at this point, but I think that the situation in November 2016 will be similar to that of 2008: barring some huge seismic shift or an extremely charismatic, sane and competent Republican candidate arising out of nowhere, the Democratic nominee of 2016 gets inaugurated as president on January, 2017. For this reason, the competition for the Democratic nomination is again so fierce. I think the fact that Hillary is again one of the two contenders is beside the point in this particular discussion. When the Republican presidential candidate roster looks like so many fish out of water, it means that our nominee will be sitting in the Oval Office a year after the convention. I agree that Sanders, as a first-timer in the spotlight on the national stage, has a steeper uphill climb to the nomination than Hillary (I almost think he'll demand equal time in front of a televised Republican witch hunt so he can destroy them with as much effectiveness as Hillary just did ). But to say it's impossible--at this point, anyway--is folly. McCain was nominated at 73 and picked a moron as his VP. My bet is that Bernie would make a pick so shrewd that the pundits would be caught flat-footed (Elijah Cummings, or someone like that). I bet Hillary would, too, for that matter. Since Palin, the VP pick is no longer the insignificant element of the campaign that it used to be, especially if the presidential nominee is over 70.

Sure, our nominee has to win the General, too, but that, like 2008, will probably seem like kicking the extra point after a bruising touchdown drive.

[4dsc]

49. I ask those who don't think Bernie can win if they are going to vote for him

in the general election if he is the candidate. That usually brings and end to the conversation. I also remind them they need to vote for whomever is our candidate.

[DrBulldog]

52. Already Bernie does better against Trump than hillary does.

And Bernie already has something that Hillary will never have: the majority support of 75,000,000 millennials.
The millennials are the big key to regaining Congress. What good does it do to elect Hillary if both houses of Congress remain Republican? Get real!

[DrBulldog]

54. If you are labeling Democratic candidates ...

... then you are acting just like a Republican.

[DrBulldog]

55. Today Hillary spent 11 hours standing up to . . . clowns.

So let's get back to the Democratic debates and raise the bar.

[Live and Learn]

56. If people voted morally for the good of all people and the earth, Bernie would win

in a landslide. Unfortunately, many people vote for selfish reasons or out of fear as demonstrated even here on DU.

I have a feeling that if Hillary should win both the primary and the GE, it would be a one term presidency hounded by impeachment proceedings and missteps (mistakes). That would be the end of progressive politics for the long term and probably lead to great civil unrest.

This may be the last opportunity we have to overturn Citizens United and keep the oligarchy from completely destroying our system and our environment. For those reason, Bernie gets my vote come hell or high water.

[DrBulldog]

66. Thank you for thinking it through.

Now if we only can get several tens of millions of Democrats to do the same thing . . . sigh.

[Bernblu]

58. Ironically, Bernie may be the better GE candidate

The Republicans will generate a big turnout against Hillary because their base hates her so much and have for over 20 years. All of the Hillary haters will be coming out of the woodwork to vote. So, Hillary will need a large turnout but she is not generating enthusiasm except in a narrow spectrum of voters. Hillary's support is broad but not deep and is mainly based on familiarity and the idea that she can win. Though, Hillary has attempted to generate energy by adopting some of Bernie's populist stands I don't think she will attract enough of the independent-left leaning voters or people turned off by politics who simply do not trust her.

Bernie generates enthusiasm because there is a hunger for real change. Being the new kid on the block it will be difficult for the Republicans to hate him as much, He is also difficult to hate because, despite the labels, he has integrity, authenticity and speaks from a moral center. Even some Republican admire those qualities and that is why he gets 25% of the Republican vote in Vermont.

It would be ironic and tragic if the Democrats nominate Hillary thinking she is a stronger candidate only to find she is the weaker candidate.

[DrBulldog]

67. Thanks for thinking it through.

And there are 75,000,000 millennials out there who are agreeing with you.

[brooklynite]

87. ...and this is why I find arguments about Bernie's electability unconvincing...

...President Obama, with incumbency and close to $1B in spending, got 65 M votes, but the Sanders folks claim that 75 M millennials are just waiting for a call to show up and vote.

[jeff47]

90. Who do you think showed up to vote for Obama?

Obama lost among people over 40 in 2012. Obama more-or-less tied with people over 40 in 2008.

Those "kids" you are doubting so much are the reason he's in the White House.

[humbled_opinion]

62. Indeed

So Hillary better make him her VP pick because after her testimony yesterday you can be assured the DLC backing will boost her ratings.... I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't beating Bernie in every poll everywhere by next week....

[Phlem]

64. But but but Hillary supporters are so abused

on DU.

[SmittynMo]

70. It comes down to this

If you want the same ol, same ol, store bought SPAC democratic politician, then vote for Hilliary. This is nothing against Hilliary. It's just the way it is.

A big part of Bernie's agenda revolves around the reversal of Citizens United. Super PACS are the root of all evil, in my opinion, as it will legally allow the 1% to control everything in this country. Hilliary and her Super PAC said she would "consider it", which is totally non committal. Believe me, her SPAC advised her as to her words.

Bernie is behind the reversal of CU, 100%. And he can't be bought with a SPAC. There is nothing here to "consider". He's all in!!!

If you want the hope for true change, that will benefit the 99% in this country, vote Bernie. Truth in politics. Don't we all deserve the best for everyone?

[COLGATE4]

127. Just how - specifically - is Bernie going to bring

about the 'reversal of CU'???

[Spitfire of ATJ]

72. Something that is unspoken is yesterday could be a preview of a Hillary presidency....

If Republicans hold onto the House (gerrymandering makes that more likely) than we are going to be subjected to one hearing after another investigating one fake scandal after another.

[Broward]

73. With Hillary as the nominee the people can't win.

[brooklynite]

88. what about "the people" that voted for her?

[GoneFishin]

74. I don't care what "they" say. I am voting for Bernie in the primary and the general.

When they say he can't win they really mean that they don't want him to win.

[madfloridian]

75. Yes, he can win.

The economic climate is ready for someone who tells it like it is.

It's a tactic used for years by the centrist think tanks. So far Third Way has not held a press conference to openly say fall in line....but the DLC think tank did in 2003. They publicly announced Dean would not be president.

But the DNC is all but announcing out loud that Bernie won't win.

Yes, he can.

[Populist_Prole]

79. Bingo

Concise, condensed; utter true.

[MohRokTah]

78. The only reason they say Sanders can't win is...

he can't win.

[Kentonio]

124. Why do you resort to lies?

Why is it so hard to just say you think your candidate offers a better vision for the country? If you believe that then why not just stand by that, instead of trying to smear another candidate?

[MohRokTah]

132. It's not a lie

There is no path to victory for Sanders in a national electoral contest.

[Kentonio]

136. Which is why the polls show him beating the GOP candidates?

[MohRokTah]

137. Show me three polls each from all fifty states that show he can get 270 electoral votes.

Until then, he's unelectable.

[Kentonio]

138. As head to head national polls against potential GOP rivals dont seem to satisfy you

Perhaps you might tell me which states that Obama won in 2012 that you think Sanders would lose to the GOP in a hypothetical 2016 race?

[COLGATE4]

128. Unassailable logic - prepare for it to be

assailed by outraged howls.

[SharpProgress]

80. I feel the Bern, but I'm also...

Perfectly happy to vote for Hillary. After the debate, and after yesterday's shit show, I'm pretty high on Hillary.

Besides, if there is one thing Republicans and machismo demo will hate even more than a black guy, it's a woman.

She is going to win, the writing is on the wall.

[George II]

82. As the NYS Lottery jingle goes - "you can't win it if you're not in it". Inasmuch as....

.....Hillary Clinton is ahead in virtually every state, many by margins of 2-1 or greater, and she has roughly half the Super Delegates behind her, I don't think there's any way that she could not be the Democratic Party nominee.

I think yesterday's abject failure to destroy her yesterday by House republicans will only bolster her support and poll numbers.

PS - just moments ago she received the endorsement of the 1.6 million member AFSCME.

[onenote]

86. The reality is neither one can win if the two camps don't unite behind whomever gets the nomination

and work as hard for that nominee as possible.

I support Bernie and think he can win the general. I also think Clinton can win the general. But this far out from the general (and from the primaries for that matter), polls about who is likely to do better against the repub nominee (who also is unknown and then some) are not worth the paper they're printed on.

If Bernie can defeat Clinton in some early primaries, his numbers for the general will improve. If he doesn't win some early primaries, in all likelihood, his numbers in the general will decline.

So instead of worrying about who is predicted to have a better shot at the general at this stage, the discussion should be focused on convincing people that since both Democrats can win, they should go with Bernie.

[ibegurpard]

89. Democratic power brokers don't WANT him to win.

Therefore they will say and do whatever it takes to stop him.

[Uncle Joe]

92. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, pinebox.

[BeanMusical]

94. Kick and R

[mhatrw]

96. Many modern Democrats have been neutered to the point

that they now think that any candidate who stands up for the sensible, intelligent, and compassionate stances on the issues they all believe in and agree with has no chance to win an election or to change anything for the better.

No, we cannot stand up for what we all think is just and right. Instead, we must offer up toothless compromises before we even begin express ourselves or put our plans on the table.

[Fairgo]

98. you describe the slow death of democracy

the sinister effect of corruption is the path it puts you on. When values do not guide you, you will end up where ever power wants you to be. It may feel like you are making progress around the edges for awhile, you'll get a little bread with your circus...but eventually even that charade ends. What we have in the end is the absolute equity of the pan-opticon. Every inmate will be treated the same.

[jfern]

99. He's got a better chance than Hillary in the general eelction

However, winning the primary is going to be a real uphill battle.

[eridani]

100. Sanders is mobilizing the voters who stayed home in 2010 and 2014

Clinton has zero appeal to the alienated 63%.

[BlueStateLib]

101. Bernie can win if the

republican attack machine stands down, he has had a free ride so far. Bernie can win but will he, I'm not so sure.

[lonestarnot]

103. If people that work for a living vote their best interests, a myth will not have relevance and

richie rich will have to give back what he has stolen.

[DCBob]

107. It might be a bit exaggerated but it's not a myth.

He might have a chance to win in the general depending on the who is the R candidate but clearly he is the bigger risk to lose than Hillary.

[AZ Progressive]

120. In America, your toughness is tested. If Bernie can't stand the heat now, how will he have any....

chance handling the Republicans and the full onslaught of the corporate establishment?

"Stop saying he isn't electable", if Bernie's being hindered by this idea, he's not tough enough to handle the Republicans and the corporate establishment, and we'll have to be punished with president Trump or president Cruz.

[treestar]

123. This is true

Very true. Hillary has been handling it for years.

The Rs only get worse.

[COLGATE4]

129. I'd feel much better about supporting him if I

saw that he had any proof of that toughness. As a legislator his record is painfully thin (to not say 'nonexistent'). He hasn't been part of the rough and tumble in Congress that would create that toughness. And we can't afford to make a mistake about the Presidency this time around.

[RoccoR5955]

131. Thirty years a thin record?

I don't understand that point. He has more legislative experience than Clinton has. Clinton was only a Senator for 6 years. Bernie was a Congressman, and a Senator going on his second term now.
And how much legislative experience did our current president have when he was elected? People still voted for him, didn't they?
Where was the "proof" of Obama's toughness? Surely it was less than Sanders' is.

[COLGATE4]

133. I'm talking about legislative accomplishment, not

attendance. Please list all the legislation that he has authored, or even sponsored or co-sponsored

[COLGATE4]

134. And, to answer your second point

I have routinely criticized Obama's lack of toughness. I think it's been amply demonstrated that he doesn't have the chops for a fight with the Repukes.

[hifiguy]

135. It's all they've got.

Bernie owns every significant issue top to bottom. And majorities agree with him in every fair poll that I have seen.